Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Robz888]

I do not intend to claim.

[Robz888]

If I were to die right now I would say look off my wagon for scum (except chairs).

[Robz888]

And depending on who hammers, obviously.

[yuma]

No hammering Robz... at least not for a while. Regardless of his willingness to claim.

Doing so indicates that you are scum and will be lynched tomorrow.

[Robz888]

I should  be voting for chairs. Vote: chairs

[Voltaire]

No hammering Robz... at least not for a while. Regardless of his willingness to claim.

Doing so indicates that you are scum and will be lynched tomorrow.

3. Don't autolynch the derphammer if there is one. Actually analyze whether or not the move--hopefully that move won't come about--was scum or town performing it.

Why don't you think anyone should hammer, yuma?

[mail-mi]

That post is more like a Walrus post. Much more like townie walrus than I was perceiving. Keeping him on the back burner , but unvote fn.

Let's see... Wagon on Robz... He's really a null read, Chairs has only phone access so that explains lurking.

Oh yippee gambits -_-. They just frustrate people.

Faust... I could go for Faust. Better than Robz, IMO. Vote: Faust.

[chairs]

I'm this close to starting to policy vote for anyone who does this and continuing until they are lynched. Having fun is more important to me than winning, and I strongly feel that this community would be better off without stuff like this happening in every game these days.

/signed. I'm already policy voting.

[yuma]

No hammering Robz... at least not for a while. Regardless of his willingness to claim.

Doing so indicates that you are scum and will be lynched tomorrow.

3. Don't autolynch the derphammer if there is one. Actually analyze whether or not the move--hopefully that move won't come about--was scum or town performing it.

Why don't you think anyone should hammer, yuma?

Rule three is expressing a derphammer. Hammering robz when I said to not do so wouldn't be derphammering... it would be admitting to scum.

I didn't want anyone to hammer him because I don't think we have fleshed out the conversation enough and I worried that someone would read his refusal to claim (w/o receiving an intent to vote) as grounds for a vote--something I disagree with because I am not so sure claiming here is the best coarse of action right now anyways--because someone would no longer need to express intent to lynch as that is generally done to allow claiming...

Basically I still think we need to have an "intent to hammer" clause added before someone hammers even if a person has refused the right to claim.

That was basically all I was trying to get across, but didn't have time to spell it all out because of a quick rush to help baby.

[Voltaire]

What if Robz flips scum, yuma?

[Eevee]

I don't like the Robz lynch. The entire wagon is based on stuff Robz wanted to happen. Can anyone of the voters point out one aspect of their suspicion that isn't something that Robz chose to do? This is not to say Robz couldn't be scum, but I feel the case really is quite nonexistent (or the same stuff that applies to Robz would also apply to other people). I don't like how non-committal he has been in his positions - but I can remember similarly little from chairs and mail-mi, at least.

I still like my walrus-case, I feel the fact I think I actually DID catch him playing different than in his previous town game is being dismissed too much. I guess I'd be fine with lynching chairs or mail-mi for undercontributing and avoiding the radar, but I really prefer walrus - to me his play hasn't had any towny elements (things he wouldn't do as scum) and I feel the narrative I built for a newer scum is quite strong for day 1.

Yuma I'm pretty null on, while I agree with the no-hammering because I don't want Robz lynched, it's always a bit problematic when someone who isn't considered an IC makes ultimatums like that. I'm not capable of catching scum yuma day 1, and as has been discussed, he is more likely to be nightkilled either way, so that and him generally being very active means we'll get more information on his alignment naturally as the game progresses.

Voltaire I usually have a strong town read on at this point, but I don't have that here. I'd expect him to have be swimming against the current more with useful original ideas.

I don't see much meat to the cases against either EFHW or faust, both generally seem to me like themselves from earlier games.

[yuma]

What if Robz flips scum, yuma?

Yay!

But let's do it right. claim intent to hammer and let us talk it out

[yuma]

Yuma I'm pretty null on, while I agree with the no-hammering because I don't want Robz lynched, it's always a bit problematic when someone who isn't considered an IC makes ultimatums like that.

I don't think it was a problematic ultimatum... at all. It is common sense. But it was territory we hadn't really been in before...

someone at L-1 saying they weren't going to claim...

I could very easily see someone thinking... "hey he doesn't need to claim, so I can just go ahead and hammer" and then doing so. That was my intent but didn't say it ver well because I was in a hurry.

If the majority of town thinks robz is scum then he should be lynched--I don't think i will join that majority--but it should still be done the right way regardless of whether or not robz wants to claim. anything else is detrimental to town.

[Eevee]

Oh, I understand your intent now. I agree with that 100%. Just came off a bit strong.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Eevee could you clarify your case on me a little?

I still like my walrus-case, I feel the fact I think I actually DID catch him playing different than in his previous town game is being dismissed too much. I guess I'd be fine with lynching chairs or mail-mi for undercontributing and avoiding the radar, but I really prefer walrus - to me his play hasn't had any towny elements (things he wouldn't do as scum) and I feel the narrative I built for a newer scum is quite strong for day 1.

So far as I can tell here is the last time you've talked about this:

In a stretch of boredom I actually went ahead and read the first 20 posts of Walrus in MC. He was definitely very jokey like he was here (I've never agreed with finding smileys or humor scummy, I recall that being at least a part of someone's reason for voting for him here though), but I don't see any of the hesitation he is showing here. Just votes with reasons provided, no asking for permissions of validations. I'm happy with my Walrus-vote.

So the main point is against my "hesitation" and "asking for permissions of validations." I asked if there was anything in particular you had in mind, besides the mail-mi thing, but I don't think you responded. What else led you to this perception?

[yuma]

So we have two wagons that have hit L-1 in the last little bit... on two players that I am leaning toward town on both... Makes me wonder if there might be common elements in both...

Vote Count 1.6:

Robz888(4) Voltaire, Faust, Chairs, Walrus {L-1}

Vote Count 1.4:

WalrusMcFishSr (4): Chairs, Eevee, Mail-mi, Faust

So faust and chairs are the common elements...

In this size of a game I think mafia needs to be on a wagon to push a mislynch through. It is much harder to sit back and let town just mislynch on their own because the wagons are sooo small even at L-1 they can quickly disintigrate and potentially move to themselves or their scum buddies... So I am thinking that chairs and faust have become my two primary candidates... I still think EFHW is suspicious... she isn't on either wagon (along with me and Robz interestingly).

I think people know where I stand on faust, but after reading the few posts from chairs I could be interested in his lynch. I am more inclined to go for faust mostly due to chairs posting habits and lack of internet making it somewhat harder for me to read him as he isn't able to be is normal self regardless of his alignment, but his being on both wagons I think is enough to overcome that, that I would consider him if faust didn't garner the support necessary...

[chairs]

I'd be interested in seeing the case on Faust summarized.

[EFHW]

I'm moving my vote to vote: chairs.  yuma calls him out for misrepresenting Walrus's case on faust, and I think this free pass he is getting for Internet problems is a bad idea.  Someone phone posting might make shorter posts and have trouble doing targeted rereads, but this game is not long so far and shouldn't be that hard to keep up with. 

He is the other person on both Robz's and Walrus's wagons (he has also voted for faust).  He says he's "policy voting" Robz, which is a way to avoid accountability.  He's done almost no scumhunting.  A couple posts on Walrus, and the rest are theory, comments, or reiterations of his comfort with his vote.

I would still cheerfully switch back to Eevee given support for that wagon.

[yuma]

I'd be interested in seeing the case on Faust summarized.

your wish... I won't do super long quotes here, I'll link points and then do a brief explainer about them:


Point 1:Both walrus and I have noted that we feel that faust is spinning stuff to look scummier than it actually is. This second link is messy. I thought I was onto something that didn't pan out because of me misremembering, the relevant paragraph is the third from the bottom and specifically in reference to quotes #1, #2 and #4 where I felt that spinning was going on.

Point 2: a self vote. Alone, not much, but added together, something...

Point 3: This isn't a super solid point, but I am going to include it. It isn't solid because it is calling out something that I think is generally more pro-town... making reads lists. But I am calling it out because of something I remember from modding in MC in the scum QT. I am going to quote here instead of making people read through that monster of a topic:

Faust, I totalllllyyyy thought you were mafia in that game. I was dead wrong...

I found you really scummy, because your reads list basically amounted to active players = towny lurking players = scummy. While you were true, I think a lot of people will find a list like that scummy. Hmmm...trying to think of any more advice...you were pretty spot-on with your reads, actually, so keep doing what you were doing!

In this TA basically says that faust should keep doing what he did in NMIV... posting reads lists that basically amounted to having town reads on active players and scum reads on lurkers... I don't think that faust ever really had a chance to fully do that in MC, so I wonder if he kept that in his pocket and is doing it here. If someone called him out on it, all he has to do is say, "but that is how I was in NMIV!" and he is set. Of course he would know that I probably read that post by TA... but I only just remembered it as I was rereading.

Point 4: Again more spin. Add to it that I think faust wants to try and get a mislynch going on me... he has done this before and this is part of what my case that fell apart was about.... but he knows that there are enough people who have publicly stated that they are against it so he knows that he can't, but still wants to raise suspicion on me, why? Because scum needs three mislynches and if he is scum I am a very attractive mislynch possibility. Obviously this point only holds water if you know I am town or if you have a very strong town read on me.

Point 5: He, along with chairs has been on the two L-1 wagons in the last day. I think this is suspicious because in a game of this size, mafia needs to be the driving forces. They can't let town waltz their way into a mislynch on their own because wagons can dissolve and reform elsewhere (on mafia) so easily that mafia I think will need to feel like they are in full control of the situation. Thus I think mafia is more likely to be on those wagons trying to push forward a mislynch. Here this requires you to have townier reads on Walrus and Robz (so that they would be mislynches) I do happen to have townier reads on Walrus and Robz, they are my highest town reads in that order.

Point 6: "search name: faust" 20 posts. Then look at faust's posting history. Very active early. There have been just over 300 posts this game by all players. Faust's first 12 posts came in the first 100. 6 in the middle 100. 2 in the last 100. This to me is indicative of scum. It is hard to maintain posts of frequency. It really is. My posting when I am scum dips down (I try extremely hard to alleviate that, but it does... it does for everyone) and it becomes progressively harder as days go longer and the game goes longer. Alone this point doesn't carry a lot of weight. But added to the rest...

[yuma]

I'm moving my vote to vote: chairs.  yuma calls him out for misrepresenting Walrus's case on faust, and I think this free pass he is getting for Internet problems is a bad idea.  Someone phone posting might make shorter posts and have trouble doing targeted rereads, but this game is not long so far and shouldn't be that hard to keep up with. 

He is the other person on both Robz's and Walrus's wagons (he has also voted for faust).  He says he's "policy voting" Robz, which is a way to avoid accountability.  He's done almost no scumhunting.  A couple posts on Walrus, and the rest are theory, comments, or reiterations of his comfort with his vote.

I would still cheerfully switch back to Eevee given support for that wagon.

It isn't a free pass. It is that I have a harder time of reading him because of a lack of posts to judge by. So, yeah, lurking can be added to the case against him for sure, but is that enough to overcome the other scummy stuff that I think faust has done... in addition to lurking of late?

I don't think so. But like I said, I could lynch chairs, but I think faust is the better option.

[chairs]

That's actually a pretty damn good case for day one.

Regarding my own defense I'll just say that frequent vote hopping is definitely something I have five as town before when I didn't have strong reads on anyone.

I'm legitimately frustrated at the shades of ash that I feel in Robz posts, but as we say "lynch mafia not scum" and all that. vote: Faust

[faust]

I'd be interested in seeing the case on Faust summarized.

your wish... I won't do super long quotes here, I'll link points and then do a brief explainer about them:


Point 1:Both walrus and I have noted that we feel that faust is spinning stuff to look scummier than it actually is. This second link is messy. I thought I was onto something that didn't pan out because of me misremembering, the relevant paragraph is the third from the bottom and specifically in reference to quotes #1, #2 and #4 where I felt that spinning was going on.

Point 2: a self vote. Alone, not much, but added together, something...

Point 3: This isn't a super solid point, but I am going to include it. It isn't solid because it is calling out something that I think is generally more pro-town... making reads lists. But I am calling it out because of something I remember from modding in MC in the scum QT. I am going to quote here instead of making people read through that monster of a topic:

Faust, I totalllllyyyy thought you were mafia in that game. I was dead wrong...

I found you really scummy, because your reads list basically amounted to active players = towny lurking players = scummy. While you were true, I think a lot of people will find a list like that scummy. Hmmm...trying to think of any more advice...you were pretty spot-on with your reads, actually, so keep doing what you were doing!

In this TA basically says that faust should keep doing what he did in NMIV... posting reads lists that basically amounted to having town reads on active players and scum reads on lurkers... I don't think that faust ever really had a chance to fully do that in MC, so I wonder if he kept that in his pocket and is doing it here. If someone called him out on it, all he has to do is say, "but that is how I was in NMIV!" and he is set. Of course he would know that I probably read that post by TA... but I only just remembered it as I was rereading.

Point 4: Again more spin. Add to it that I think faust wants to try and get a mislynch going on me... he has done this before and this is part of what my case that fell apart was about.... but he knows that there are enough people who have publicly stated that they are against it so he knows that he can't, but still wants to raise suspicion on me, why? Because scum needs three mislynches and if he is scum I am a very attractive mislynch possibility. Obviously this point only holds water if you know I am town or if you have a very strong town read on me.

Point 5: He, along with chairs has been on the two L-1 wagons in the last day. I think this is suspicious because in a game of this size, mafia needs to be the driving forces. They can't let town waltz their way into a mislynch on their own because wagons can dissolve and reform elsewhere (on mafia) so easily that mafia I think will need to feel like they are in full control of the situation. Thus I think mafia is more likely to be on those wagons trying to push forward a mislynch. Here this requires you to have townier reads on Walrus and Robz (so that they would be mislynches) I do happen to have townier reads on Walrus and Robz, they are my highest town reads in that order.

Point 6: "search name: faust" 20 posts. Then look at faust's posting history. Very active early. There have been just over 300 posts this game by all players. Faust's first 12 posts came in the first 100. 6 in the middle 100. 2 in the last 100. This to me is indicative of scum. It is hard to maintain posts of frequency. It really is. My posting when I am scum dips down (I try extremely hard to alleviate that, but it does... it does for everyone) and it becomes progressively harder as days go longer and the game goes longer. Alone this point doesn't carry a lot of weight. But added to the rest...

Let me respond to each of yuma's points here:

Point 1: So I'm making things look scummier than they are. Maybe. But that's what you do when you make cases. You focus on what's scummy in order to make you point and get reactions. Yuma himself says at the end of this post that spinning is done by town as well, so I don't see how this is a scumtell.

Point 2: That self-vote had a reason, but I won't explain it.

Point 3: That's just like extremely constructed. Have you even read my reads list? I have a town read on a lurker (chairs) and a scum read on an active player (Walrus) there. How is that "having town reads on active players and scum reads on lurkers"?

Point 4: OMGUS? Is it now forbidden to point out things about you that look suspicious just because a majority of players (including me) doesn't want to lynch you today?

Point 5: Yes, for this to work, you would need to have a strong town read on both Robz and Walrus. I don't have that. But yuma seems certain enough about his town reads that he is willing to derive more reads from that, something I find hard to do because the chance of being wrong increases exponentially: Say you are 85 percent sure that Walrus is town and 80 percent sure that Robz is town. (suppose also, for simplicity's sake, that these events are independent) Above that, you are 50 percent sure that I am scum if both Robz and Walrus are town (again, pretty confident), and say you have a null read on me otherwise (because I'm only arguing against this point here). A null read means the probability for me being scum is 2/8=0.25

So what's the overall likelihood that I am scum in this scenario?
P(Walrus is town AND Robz is town)=P(Walrus is town)*P(Robz is town)= 0.85*0.8= 0.68

P(I am scum)=P(I am scum | Walrus is town AND Robz is town)*P(Walrus is town AND Robz is town) + P(I am scum | NOT (Walrus is town AND Robz is town))= 0.5*0.68 + 0.25*0.32= 0.42

The likelihood of me being scum drops by 8 percentage points because you can't be certain that your reads are correct. That's why I prefer what one could call "primary cases" - cases that aren't based on the assumption that others have a certain alignments.

Point 6: My main problem is that most discussions here take place while I'm asleep. So by nature, I'm often not around when lots of posts are happening. It somehow worked early in the game, probably also because it was starting out slowly. Also, I'm quite busy in real life.

[faust]

That's actually a pretty damn good case for day one.

Regarding my own defense I'll just say that frequent vote hopping is definitely something I have five as town before when I didn't have strong reads on anyone.

I'm legitimately frustrated at the shades of ash that I feel in Robz posts, but as we say "lynch mafia not scum" and all that. vote: Faust

chairs, which of yuma's points do you find compelling? Points 1-3, of which he himself states that they are weak, OMGUS point 4, point 5 which works with the assumption that two people you already voted for today are town, or the inactivity point 6?

[faust]

Faust... I could go for Faust. Better than Robz, IMO. Vote: Faust.

Reasons?

[yuma]

I don't want to have a big back and forth discussing the points, because I hate it when players do that, it makes it hard to read and just results in huge walls of quoting requotes and is basically impossible to follow.

But what I will say is:

I don't think point 2 is weak in conjunction with everything else. And I don't think point 1 is weak either. Yes spinning can be done by town, but I think the more blatant spinning is often done by mafia and I think you are veering toward the blatant side... I mean I haven't agreed with basically any scum read you have given out this game. All of them seem forced and about silly things that you are misinterpreting or misrepresenting (depending on your alignment) to be scummy. Scum has to spin, they have to! It is the only way to get someone lynched. Town only does it to try and get support for a lynch and doesn't always do it. So, yeah town can. But I still think it is more of a scumtell... and certainly not a nulltell.

Point 3: I do see that you have scum reads on posters and town reads on lurkers. I guess I misread in my haste to post. Feel free to remove that point.

Other points: feel free to find me scummy. But I don't see anything wrong with me finding you scummy for finding me scummy as long as that isn't the only thing. I am calling you out for your entire play. OMGUS is when someone calls out a player specifically for finding them scummy. Especially the way you are doing it. Yay! Math... except I am not deriving reads from it. I already had a scum read on you. Do you want me to just ignore my reads entirely? Or maybe I should first lynch one of my town reads so I can better get a grasp of my scum reads? Yeah... scum would love that. No. In this game if you are going to get anywhere you have to start making assumptions. And I have started making them. And let's face it... you are now considered a lurker. You are and you have done it in a scummy way dropping in the post count as the game has gone on. That point alone would qualify you for a lynch in my book. LALL works pretty well... yes there are other lurkers, some slightly more egregious than you, but then again, they don't have the other evidence stacked up against you.