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NoMoreFun

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What if the Base Set was released last?
« on: October 11, 2013, 12:50:47 am »
+2

Imagine if the base set was released after all the other sets, with a theme like "no frills" and a name like Dominion: Frugality.

What cards would you have chosen for previews, and what would you have said about them?

Would it have been the worst expansion?
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jaybeez

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2013, 02:52:29 am »
0

The idea of Dominion existing for years without Chapel is mind-blowing.

But it's a paradoxical question, since the set was specifically designed to be first: if the base set had been released last, most or all of its cards would have been picked for the first set instead, so what exactly would have been released last then?
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NoMoreFun

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2013, 03:00:37 am »
0

The idea of Dominion existing for years without Chapel is mind-blowing.

But it's a paradoxical question, since the set was specifically designed to be first: if the base set had been released last, most or all of its cards would have been picked for the first set instead, so what exactly would have been released last then?

In this universe, Intrigue would have been the "base" set, and for a simpler alternative, what we know as the base set was released after guilds to offer players a simpler introduction to the game. Same cards.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 03:01:55 am by NoMoreFun »
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PitzerMike

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2013, 03:08:14 am »
0

I think I'd be really disappointed. I'd think "all these have been done before".
I'd preview Adventurer and Chapel just to see what people think of it :D
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NoMoreFun

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2013, 03:59:08 am »
+7

Chapel will be the standout, and people would be all up in arms about the fact that such a powerful card exists. A card that trashes better than Count and almost as well as Forge for 2?!?!

Library, Bureaucrat, Gardens, and Mine are unique enough. Festival too, although that may be too Vanilla.

Militia and Smithy can have the "Whoa that's cheap" reaction that Chapel will get, though not to the same extent. I especially think with Smithy the community consensus would have been that "+3 Cards" is too good for $4, not good enough for $5 before its release.

Maybe Moneylender would be seen as quite interesting since seeing +$3 as well as a positive effect for $4 would be quite a novelty. Could easily imagine people grossly overestimating how good it is.

Similarly, Remodel would be niche enough because Butcher is extremely versatile, and people would have noticed only needing $2 up for Gold->Province, so a relatively cheap card that does that would be noteworthy.

Council Room, Moat, Throne Room have effects that wouldn't really be noteworthy given the other known cards, but nobody would begrudge their existence as nice little additions with their own strategies.

Village, Laboratory, Market, Cellar, Workshop and Witch would be good at demonstrating that it's the "simple" set, and none of them would really change the landscape at all.

I'd keep Thief, Spy, Feast, Chancellor and Adventurer in hiding for as long as possible. They're cards with problems that would be obvious as soon as they are revealed to an experienced Dominion playing community (except maybe "Scavenger without the topdecking for $3" if people liked Scavenger enough). Not sure whether Woodcutter would fit into this category or the above category.

Overall it would probably be seen as disappointing, but it would achieve its aims and most Dominion players would probably still buy it. I'd preview Remodel, Gardens, Library, Moneylender and finally Chapel to get the fans in an uproar.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 04:21:07 am by NoMoreFun »
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brokoli

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2013, 06:07:36 am »
0

Chapel will be the standout, and people would be all up in arms about the fact that such a powerful card exists. A card that trashes better than Count and almost as well as Forge for 2?!?!
Count is a very poor trasher.
Remake and steward are much more effective.
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SCSN

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2013, 06:21:15 am »
+3

Chapel will be the standout, and people would be all up in arms about the fact that such a powerful card exists. A card that trashes better than Count and almost as well as Forge for 2?!?!
Count is a very poor trasher.
Remake and steward are much more effective.

Count is an elite trasher. I certainly wouldn't skip Steward or Remake on a 4/3 open with Count on the board, but with 5/2 I prefer Count over Remake 100% of the time.
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Awaclus

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2013, 06:38:45 am »
0

Count is an elite trasher. I certainly wouldn't skip Steward or Remake on a 4/3 open with Count on the board, but with 5/2 I prefer Count over Remake 100% of the time.
This. Count is faster at trashing than Remake and Steward, topdecks the good card instead of discarding it if you have one in hand, becomes nuts if you can draw extra cards before playing it and those happen to be bad cards, and it continues to be useful throughout the entire game. Remake has the upside of giving you $3s in exchange for your Estates, which is obviously great, but sometimes it also has the downside of giving you Poor Houses or Estates for your Shelters and Coppers. Steward doesn't really have any upside over Count except for costing $3.
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GendoIkari

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2013, 02:06:33 pm »
0

Village would be amusing... people would be like "wow, weaker Mining/Worker's/Walled/Farming Village that costs $3 instead of $4".

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SirPeebles

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2013, 02:09:44 pm »
+9

Village would be amusing... people would be like "wow, weaker Mining/Worker's/Walled/Farming Village that costs $3 instead of $4".

I'd be amused that its name is simply "Village".
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GendoIkari

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2013, 02:16:43 pm »
+1

Village would be amusing... people would be like "wow, weaker Mining/Worker's/Walled/Farming Village that costs $3 instead of $4".

I'd be amused that its name is simply "Village".

True. We'd probably think that it's really clever flavor.
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jonts26

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2013, 02:17:11 pm »
+2

If the base set was released last, we'd have seen most of the cards as fan cards before the release.
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GendoIkari

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2013, 02:19:59 pm »
0

If the base set was released last, we'd have seen most of the cards as fan cards before the release.

Hard to say with that one. Fan cards are basically never vanilla, even though there's several vanilla combinations that the official cards don't do. I think for sure Market would have been done as a fan card, but the rest of the vanilla cards may have been considered too boring.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2013, 07:59:20 pm »
+4

If the base set was released last, we'd have seen most of the cards as fan cards before the release.

Hard to say with that one. Fan cards are basically never vanilla, even though there's several vanilla combinations that the official cards don't do. I think for sure Market would have been done as a fan card, but the rest of the vanilla cards may have been considered too boring.

We'd have a thread titled, "Why are there so few Vanilla cards?" and we'd all have been wondering for ages what Donald has against simplicity. We'd have an extended discussion about what the price of the cards we know as Lab, Smithy, Village etc and probably get very close to the actual cards at the actual costs. When the simplicity theme is announced, we'd all discuss how many of the Vanilla cards that we've come up with will be in the simplicity set, and we'd probably guess the name Village.
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PSGarak

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2013, 08:07:26 pm »
0

If they didn't exist and then came out, the following cards would:

Be blasted for being blunt, crude, inelegant ways of achieving their goal: Moat, Chapel. Chapel is obvs, Moat seems so direct compared to any other anti-attack reaction. It would probably be considered game-warping in a negative fashion too, until actual playtesting.
Possibly Village. It would be interesting to see people's reactions to a $3 village, since aside from Village itself almost every village that draws a card costs $4.

Make unique additions to the game:
Festival, actually. Considered as a village for hardcore engines, it sits at a really odd price-point and corner of design space: +buy and its own money source, but no draw? Odd.
Mine, possibly Workshop.

Seem like obvious and fitting additions to the game: Gardens, Laboratory, Smithy. I would love to see Donald's write-up of Gardens if it hadn't already existed.
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dondon151

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2013, 11:39:53 pm »
0

I would preview the Four Pillars of Dominion: Frugality.
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AJD

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2013, 12:04:33 am »
0

I would preview the Four Pillars of Dominion: Frugality.

Hmm, I don't think Thief and Witch make interesting previews in a universe that already contains Noble Brigand, Pirate Ship, Familiar, and Cultist. Chapel and Gardens, certainly. Also Smithy, as arguably the best expression of the theme. Then possibly Moat, Library, and Festival? Bureaucrat is also a card that has nothing quite like in any other expansion.
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eHalcyon

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2013, 12:15:46 am »
0

In this alternate universe, did Donald already have the cards designed and just ended up pushing them to the end, or did he actually design these cards later than those that came before (like Dark Ages)?  If the latter, then there are actually some cards that might not have made it through, and other cards that did in earlier sets.  For example, Lab might have been cut because a Lab+discard might exist at $5 in some earlier set.  Thief might look different too because, as is, it would just look like a powered-down NB that sometimes (but rarely) did a little better.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2013, 12:29:26 am »
0

If the base set was released last, we'd have seen most of the cards as fan cards before the release.

Hard to say with that one. Fan cards are basically never vanilla, even though there's several vanilla combinations that the official cards don't do. I think for sure Market would have been done as a fan card, but the rest of the vanilla cards may have been considered too boring.

I think this is right. People would have ridiculed "Alchemist without potions", "Goons Jr.", "Worker's Peddler", "A reaction that simply blocks attacks", "Cultist with Curses" etc. as fan cards, and that's before looking at cards like Thief and Chancellor. Gardens would have often been proposed, but not 1VP for every 10 cards. I think the most likely cards to have shown up would have been cards like Library.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2013, 12:33:28 am »
0

In this alternate universe, did Donald already have the cards designed and just ended up pushing them to the end, or did he actually design these cards later than those that came before (like Dark Ages)?  If the latter, then there are actually some cards that might not have made it through, and other cards that did in earlier sets.  For example, Lab might have been cut because a Lab+discard might exist at $5 in some earlier set.  Thief might look different too because, as is, it would just look like a powered-down NB that sometimes (but rarely) did a little better.

Exact same cards.
I'd imagine some scenario where Rio Grande at the 11th hour decided the base set was "boring" and released intrigue first, and after releasing all the other sets they changed their mind and released it as is.

I don't think Thief would survive in many other scenarios.
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Mr Anderson

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2013, 04:04:33 am »
0

Make unique additions to the game:
[]possibly Workshop.

Really? There are Ironworks, Armory, (Horn of Plenty).

Moat is new, but every attack can be blocked or at least weakened by other reactions.
Chapel is already redone with Forge and Count can serve as trasher as well, also there is Steward, Ambassador, Remake.
Cellar has Warehouse.
Village has brother(s) in every expansion, especially Farming Village and Fortress. I think people would wonder why village was not released earlier.
Chancellor: There is Scavenger, and Scavenger is so much better.
Woodcutter: Goons and Nomad Camp
Workshop: as mentioned above Ironworks, Armory, Horn of Plenty.
Bureaucrat: Jack, Fortune Teller, Rabble, Ghost Ship combined. New enough, though.
Moneylender: Spice Merchant. New enough, though.
Gardens: New.
Militia: Ghost Ship, Goons(!), Margrave, Followers, Mercenary. There are already many discard attacks.
Remodel: Butcher was released half a year ago, come up with new ideas!
Spy: Why is that so much weaker than Scrying Pool?
Throne Room: A smaller KC, Procession.
Feast: New enough. (Well, there is Altar, but you will rather open Feast to minimize shuffle luck).
Smithy: Torturer, Wharf, Rabble, Margrave, Catacombs, Journeyman, Envoy.
Thief: Noble Brigand and Pirate Ship.
Council Room: Governor's draw, Hunting Grounds. Still new enough, I think.
Festival: Squire and Fishing Village come into my mind. However, nothing too similar was released so far.
Market: cantrip buy like Market Square, Peddler variant.
Library: There is Watchtower.
Lab: Alchemist, Hunting Party, Stables.
Mine: There is taxman. Still, they play differently.
Witch: There are Junkers in every Expansion, and this one might be incorporated in an Engine nicely.
Adventurer: Venture. It should cost $5.

I would preview Gardens, Witch, Mine, Moneylender, Chapel.

Overall, people would wonder why they are pushed back to BM.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2013, 04:08:26 am by Mr Anderson »
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jonts26

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2013, 10:24:25 am »
+20

Theory's reaction to cellar would be: Why would he even print this, it's just a worse warehouse.
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brokoli

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2013, 12:13:47 pm »
0

Count is an elite trasher. I certainly wouldn't skip Steward or Remake on a 4/3 open with Count on the board, but with 5/2 I prefer Count over Remake 100% of the time.
From my experience, as a trasher, count is quickly useless. In a basic hand of 5 cards, it trashes maximum three cards. That is not bad, but as soon as you have useful actions and a good drawing power, it becomes clearly limited. If you want to trash a remaining copper or estate, you have to use/discard/topdeck all your other good cards which is often not easy.

Of course, Count is often better at $5 than remake, because it have a nice long-term benefit which remake usually don't have. But otherwise, again as a trasher and a trasher only, remake is better and I'm pretty convinced by that.

And in Dominion, there are no moves that are strictly better than other 100% of the time  :P
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Mr Anderson

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2013, 12:29:08 pm »
0

And in Dominion, there are no moves that are strictly better than other 100% of the time  :P

No, everything is strictly better than buying Scout  :)
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SCSN

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Re: What if the Base Set was released last?
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2013, 12:48:40 pm »
0

Count is an elite trasher. I certainly wouldn't skip Steward or Remake on a 4/3 open with Count on the board, but with 5/2 I prefer Count over Remake 100% of the time.
From my experience, as a trasher, count is quickly useless.

It's quickly useless as a trasher precisely because it trashes so good. It's only poor trashers like Trade Route that you keep trashing with throughout the game.

Quote
In a basic hand of 5 cards, it trashes maximum three cards. That is not bad

That's quite the understatement. Trashing 3 cards at once is really, really good.

Quote
but as soon as you have useful actions and a good drawing power, it becomes clearly limited.

That's why you prioritize trashing over anything else, so that by the time you have other useful actions and good drawing power you also have a clean deck and no longer need trashing.

Quote
If you want to trash a remaining copper or estate, you have to use/discard/topdeck all your other good cards which is often not easy.

That's no big deal. In most decks you'll do perfectly fine without trashing down beyond the last Copper or Estate or two.

Quote
And in Dominion, there are no moves that are strictly better than other 100% of the time  :P

That's nonsense, especially when different price points are concerned, but even at the same price point: opening Ironmonger over Scout is better 100% of the time.
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