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[UmbrageOfSnow]

Why point it out if you don't find it necessarily scummy?  Why tell us it was odd?

Because

I don't remember him pushing for a random lynch. Do you want to build on that UoS?

[Voltaire]

Why point it out if you don't find it necessarily scummy?  Why tell us it was odd?

had the same thought. And the same thought when volt said weird!=scummy. I understand weird!=scummy to some people, but why mention it?

Well, presumably because he wants ash to comment on it, or he wants people to remember it in future days once we have flips.

PPE: Or...

Why point it out if you don't find it necessarily scummy?  Why tell us it was odd?

Because

I don't remember him pushing for a random lynch. Do you want to build on that UoS?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

A final note on the actual plan, as I see we've tabled that discussion overnight:

I will put little credence into any PR claim from D2 on.  Guilt result?  Scum lie.  Don't lynch me I'm Roleblocker?  Scum lie.  Our PRs have smaller chances of being believed and are more likely to be mislynched if we don't claim on D1 (or find another plan).

I agree with this, I just wanted to move on for now and come back to it, to reduce the "too much theory talk" complaints and "get the game going" so to speak.

Each day that passes, PR claims become less credible.

[shraeye]

No, that's not what I'm saying.  I'm still working through exactly why I'm feeling the way I do about it.

I think that if town!Ash thought mass-claiming was a good idea, he would have good reasons for doing so.  It's not like Ash to not have reasons as a town member.

Given that he had reasons, why didn't he just dump them all initially, get us to mass-claim if it's really what was best for town, then get on with it?  This isn't what happened.  He's justified it bit by bit.

I just think if Ash were town and really thought mass-claiming were good, he would have made a concise, initial post explaining exactly why it was good rather than leave his reasoning scattered over several pages.  You know, to make sure we actually mass claim, because he think it's pro-town.

He didn't do this, so it makes me think that either Ash isn't town, or he actually doesn't think that massclaiming is good.  I don't think it's the second, since massclaiming isn't obviously bad like past plans have been.  So I lean towards the first.

This is really really really stretching to find a scumread.  You're saying that because ash didn't present up-front a concise post explaining his entire position, that he's scum??  Or are you finding him scummy because he continued to talk about massclaims when people responded to him.  Yeah, continuing a train of thought is pretty scummy.......

My vote on nkirbit stands.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Well I do think it's potentially worth remembering and I really do want to see some commentary from Ash about it, but the specific mention that it was odd was because Jorbles wanted some expansion on my thoughts.

[nkirbit]

No, that's not what I'm saying.  I'm still working through exactly why I'm feeling the way I do about it.

I think that if town!Ash thought mass-claiming was a good idea, he would have good reasons for doing so.  It's not like Ash to not have reasons as a town member.

Given that he had reasons, why didn't he just dump them all initially, get us to mass-claim if it's really what was best for town, then get on with it?  This isn't what happened.  He's justified it bit by bit.

I just think if Ash were town and really thought mass-claiming were good, he would have made a concise, initial post explaining exactly why it was good rather than leave his reasoning scattered over several pages.  You know, to make sure we actually mass claim, because he think it's pro-town.

He didn't do this, so it makes me think that either Ash isn't town, or he actually doesn't think that massclaiming is good.  I don't think it's the second, since massclaiming isn't obviously bad like past plans have been.  So I lean towards the first.

This is really really really stretching to find a scumread.  You're saying that because ash didn't present up-front a concise post explaining his entire position, that he's scum??  Or are you finding him scummy because he continued to talk about massclaims when people responded to him.  Yeah, continuing a train of thought is pretty scummy.......

My vote on nkirbit stands.

I'm just saying he feels differently then when I've seen him present plans as a town member.

[sudgy]

Vote Count 1.2

yuma (1): Eevee
nkirbit (1): shraeye
liopoil (2): UmbrageOfSnow, Voltaire
Voltaire (2): yuma, mail-mi
Robz888 (1): Jorbles
ashersky (1): nkirbit

Not Voting (4): ashersky, Robz888, liopoil, Voltgloss
With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends August 17th.

[shraeye]

Why point it out if you don't find it necessarily scummy?  Why tell us it was odd?

Because

I don't remember him pushing for a random lynch. Do you want to build on that UoS?

Well, it's the second time you've taken time to point out that something is unusual, or possibly scummy without publicly coming to that conclusion yourself.  Here is the other post, where you said that ash's claim could be scum behavior or town behavior.

Just pointing things out and seeing if town will decide that they're scummy is not the way to get your mislynch through, dude.

[yuma]

I think the first is most likely though. That just seemed like a typical ashersky reaction to me egging him on.

Why did you egg him on?

because he said we should mass claim...

Right, but what I'm saying is, what if that was a bad idea for town? What if he's a PR? I understand it as a means of testing how serious he is, but it seems like it could have gone badly.

if it is a bad idea for town--obviously I think it is--he shouldn't have claimed. But then again, I think him suggesting mass claiming was a bad idea. But then again, I asked him what the plan was. Why? Because I knew that he would come in with another plan like he always does. But the claim is his responsibility, not mine.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So as long as I'm bringing up things I think are worth remembering later, how come

I have read the threadd AND the setup... I am fully aware of the no flip on NKs. D1 though, we can absolutely trust L-1 claimants if there is no counterclaim. guess what day we're on? D1.

But

our PR's can't be mislynched anyway, as long as we give them a chance to claim at L-1. sure, scum can fakeclaim, but they can do that in a massclaim anyway.

Was used as a reason not to claim.  Now there are definitely some good arguments against claiming, but this isn't one of them and the idea that we can trust L-1 claims is bad, and the idea that it's equally easy in a D1 massclaim as it is at L-1 is silly.  This isn't some master plan, obviously, but trying to sway town's policy decisions with bad logic bothers me, and this seems like it could be setting Liopoil up to defend fake claims on later days.

It could also be that Liopoil was confused originally, but came back and got angry about my vote on him, and defended his original post rather than admitting he was wrong, or something along those lines.

This isn't a strong case by any means, but I think we should be on the lookout for things like this, and I know I'll be suspicious of Liopoil believing PR claims on later days (if we don't end up claiming.)

[ashersky]

I would point out, in my defense, that when I've opened a game day with a long concise "plan" post, I get immediately accused of cooking it up ahead of time in the scum QT.

Ironic now that since I didn't have a concise opening post, I still get flak.

[ashersky]

I think the first is most likely though. That just seemed like a typical ashersky reaction to me egging him on.

Why did you egg him on?

because he said we should mass claim...

Right, but what I'm saying is, what if that was a bad idea for town? What if he's a PR? I understand it as a means of testing how serious he is, but it seems like it could have gone badly.

if it is a bad idea for town--obviously I think it is--he shouldn't have claimed. But then again, I think him suggesting mass claiming was a bad idea. But then again, I asked him what the plan was. Why? Because I knew that he would come in with another plan like he always does. But the claim is his responsibility, not mine.

If it helps settle this, yuma's definitely, absolutely to blame for my claim.

[yuma]

and this is why I don't like using theory discussion for scum hunting. I tried to read what was going on here, but mostly it looks like the potential of "he has faulty logic so he is scummy"

I don't know if either player used faulty logic or not. I am not very interested in that side of things, but what I am interested in is noting that these sorts of "I am right, you are wrong" arguments tend to rarely accomplish much of anything when it comes to lynching mafia. sure keep track of them, but I imagine when lio comes back it will just turn into a giant misunderstanding of each other's posts.

[yuma]

I think the first is most likely though. That just seemed like a typical ashersky reaction to me egging him on.

Why did you egg him on?

because he said we should mass claim...

Right, but what I'm saying is, what if that was a bad idea for town? What if he's a PR? I understand it as a means of testing how serious he is, but it seems like it could have gone badly.

if it is a bad idea for town--obviously I think it is--he shouldn't have claimed. But then again, I think him suggesting mass claiming was a bad idea. But then again, I asked him what the plan was. Why? Because I knew that he would come in with another plan like he always does. But the claim is his responsibility, not mine.

If it helps settle this, yuma's definitely, absolutely to blame for my claim.

oh, well in that case, should I self vote?

[ashersky]

I think the first is most likely though. That just seemed like a typical ashersky reaction to me egging him on.

Why did you egg him on?

because he said we should mass claim...

Right, but what I'm saying is, what if that was a bad idea for town? What if he's a PR? I understand it as a means of testing how serious he is, but it seems like it could have gone badly.

if it is a bad idea for town--obviously I think it is--he shouldn't have claimed. But then again, I think him suggesting mass claiming was a bad idea. But then again, I asked him what the plan was. Why? Because I knew that he would come in with another plan like he always does. But the claim is his responsibility, not mine.

If it helps settle this, yuma's definitely, absolutely to blame for my claim.

oh, well in that case, should I self vote?

That would be amazing.  Literally.  Ah. May. Zing.

[Jorbles]

Here's something for people who've played more recently with them, have the players newer to me (nkirbit, UoS, Voltaire) played as scum before?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

and this is why I don't like using theory discussion for scum hunting. I tried to read what was going on here, but mostly it looks like the potential of "he has faulty logic so he is scummy"

I don't know if either player used faulty logic or not. I am not very interested in that side of things, but what I am interested in is noting that these sorts of "I am right, you are wrong" arguments tend to rarely accomplish much of anything when it comes to lynching mafia. sure keep track of them, but I imagine when lio comes back it will just turn into a giant misunderstanding of each other's posts.

So if, hypothetically, Liopoil does use this as cover to believe a fake claim later and defend his hypothetical scumbuddy, that won't seem scummy to you?  I probably shouldn't admit things aren't rock-solid "scumslips" because then people only see the uncertainty rather than the point, but yeah it isn't a big deal, it's just a thing I noticed.

And I think the bigger value of pointing it out is that, on the chance he is scum and that was his idea, it won't make sense anymore.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Here's something for people who've played more recently with them, have the players newer to me (nkirbit, UoS, Voltaire) played as scum before?

I have not.  I'm newer than Nkirbit and M. Arouet though.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Here's something for people who've played more recently with them, have the players newer to me (nkirbit, UoS, Voltaire) played as scum before?

I have not.  I'm newer than Nkirbit and M. Arouet though.

Nkirbit has flipped scum in both Clue and Now For Something Completely Different Blitz.

[Robz888]

Yo! Just skim caught up. Didn't pay enough attention to people's statements (which is bad) but I did follow the pros and cons of the claiming thing. I sort of like VG's plan to claim Pr/non-Pr. But, well, we probably don't want to claim at all, because really town actually does end up winning mulitball variants fairly often, and they win because scum shoots each other. Any role revealing reduces the chances of scum shooting each other, which is very bad for town.

Vote: ashersky

I think ash-with-a-plan is usually town ash. However, I don't like the way he just claimed right off the bat here. For one thing, I do think it's anti-town if we massclai, and it's certainly anti-town if just he claims. So. Also, it's something I can see ash doing as scum to sort of get out of the way. Now he's already claimed, and I bet he thought that maybe we would start to just take the claim at face value and think of him as town. So, I'm voting him for now.

[ashersky]

Yo! Just skim caught up. Didn't pay enough attention to people's statements (which is bad) but I did follow the pros and cons of the claiming thing. I sort of like VG's plan to claim Pr/non-Pr. But, well, we probably don't want to claim at all, because really town actually does end up winning mulitball variants fairly often, and they win because scum shoots each other. Any role revealing reduces the chances of scum shooting each other, which is very bad for town.

Bolded Robz scum lie.  DS9?  Masons and Monks?  LotR1?  PokeMafia?  Town DOES NOT win multiball.  Ever.

vote: Robz

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Yo! Just skim caught up. Didn't pay enough attention to people's statements (which is bad) but I did follow the pros and cons of the claiming thing. I sort of like VG's plan to claim Pr/non-Pr. But, well, we probably don't want to claim at all, because really town actually does end up winning mulitball variants fairly often, and they win because scum shoots each other. Any role revealing reduces the chances of scum shooting each other, which is very bad for town.

Bolded Robz scum lie.  DS9?  Masons and Monks?  LotR1?  PokeMafia?  Town DOES NOT win multiball.  Ever.

vote: Robz

Also, as has been pointed out, this setup seems to go to the Serial Killer 2/3 of the time on Mafiascum.  I'm guessing the lack of information we have after night kills allows the SK and Mafia more cover for fakeclaims.

[yuma]

Yo! Just skim caught up. Didn't pay enough attention to people's statements (which is bad) but I did follow the pros and cons of the claiming thing. I sort of like VG's plan to claim Pr/non-Pr. But, well, we probably don't want to claim at all, because really town actually does end up winning mulitball variants fairly often, and they win because scum shoots each other. Any role revealing reduces the chances of scum shooting each other, which is very bad for town.

Bolded Robz scum lie.  DS9?  Masons and Monks?  LotR1?  PokeMafia?  Town DOES NOT win multiball.  Ever.

vote: Robz

Bolded ashersky misdirection? MIII (Dark Ages)? MXI (Masquerade)? MXV (switch)? MXVII (Buffy, which you modded)? SK games aren't multiball games and town has won 4 games with SKs in them.

[yuma]

although I guess I shouldn't say that ash misdirected there... but rather that it is inaccurate from both parties to call this multiball...

[ashersky]

although I guess I shouldn't say that ash misdirected there... but rather that it is inaccurate from both parties to call this multiball...

I'm saying that Robz lied by saying that town often wins multiball games.  I pointed out how he was wrong.

I didn't claim that this game was multiball.  In fact, others pointed out early that they didn't like me looking at this game as 9 town versus 3 scum.

I clearly see this game as not multiball.