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[ashersky]

Okay how about this, eevee/liopoil/spiritbears. Eevee is the most popular pick(makes sense to be picked and fills vet requirement many people mentioned) liopoil also highly popular pick(fits nicely in the middle of vet and newbie) spirit I have already said he makes an easily defendable partner due to his past of being a confuse townie(fills in the newbie scum pick)

In that team composition(vet/middle/newbie) I would expect to see the vet take a laid back passive approach, the middle to take and aggressive approach, and the newbie to try to look like town.

Also liopoil has been buddying eevee a lot, I don't remember town!liopoil buddying many people(full disclosure I can't remember scum!liopoil doing it either)
Lastly someone said spirit seemed like town because he was playing similarly, but I find him slightly scummy for pushing robz pretty hard, I know I missed some stuff but if I remember correctly spiritbears pushed the robz lynch quite a bit, that fits something a newbie scum player would do.

vote: mcmcsalot

This put him over the edge for me today.  I'll put the case together now.

[ashersky]

On mcmc:

--he was off-wagon, where I believe it is easier to catch scum from D1 (in the group of 4 off-wagon, I have some town reads to narrow my suspicions)
--he is a likely partner choice for a lot of people, and was even mentioned often during the D1 discussions, but ended up only listed twice.  To me, that screams scum manipulation of the list we put together.  (Note: I think Eevee's high number could be scum manipulation, too.  Remember, scum could say whoever they wanted to just to raise or lower numbers.)
--low post count relative to his norm

This:

ugh robz claimed something... i will reread tomorow

What?  The end of D1 + all of a long N1 and you didn't know Robz claimed something?  Especially when the last post of D1 you made was emphatically supporting Robz's towniness?  You were too sure Robz was town on D1, I think, especially given his scummy behavior.  And then he's IC and you don't know?

And this:

I will reread around 1 pm today, while were at it though why is robz ic. Did he claim before I left. And yes I have paid sooooooooo little attention to this game. I read nothing past my last post.

Could very well be scum!mcmc playing a gambit of feigned indifference to the game to seem towny.  He is big into playing these games, and he's always very active as scum.  He knows we've seen that enough to pick up on it, so here's a way to play against his own meta.

--was on no wagons D1, actually, which I think is scummy.

Now, even bigger, he's voting liopoil.  Again.  This is a classic tunnel.  But his reasoning for the vote?

oooooooohkay, vote: liopoil still totally think he is scum.

okay I did not reread as fully as I said I would, I skimmed but I did reevaluate my case on liopoil and came back to voting him. I will post a nicer looking case and fully read when I'm not trying to save my house from the elements(there is a tornado watch for east lansing, and my basement which has already flooded once is currently below the water table)

And then...

Yet another unpressured town claim

Eevee/liopoil scum team, I think so. I had suspicions of eevee that were put out if mind because he responded well. But scum can respond very well and townie when given the chance. The fact that I had suspicions in the first place still hold true.

Out of these two I would very much like to lynch liopoil first.

And finally...

Okay how about this, eevee/liopoil/spiritbears. Eevee is the most popular pick(makes sense to be picked and fills vet requirement many people mentioned) liopoil also highly popular pick(fits nicely in the middle of vet and newbie) spirit I have already said he makes an easily defendable partner due to his past of being a confuse townie(fills in the newbie scum pick)

In that team composition(vet/middle/newbie) I would expect to see the vet take a laid back passive approach, the middle to take and aggressive approach, and the newbie to try to look like town.

Also liopoil has been buddying eevee a lot, I don't remember town!liopoil buddying many people(full disclosure I can't remember scum!liopoil doing it either)
Lastly someone said spirit seemed like town because he was playing similarly, but I find him slightly scummy for pushing robz pretty hard, I know I missed some stuff but if I remember correctly spiritbears pushed the robz lynch quite a bit, that fits something a newbie scum player would do.

That last chain is scum flailing to find a lynch that will stick.  He says he'll put the case on lio together but doesn't.  He says he'll re-read but doesn't (much).  And calling scum teams at this juncture?  And here's where I think he's messed up.

He's calling it eevee/liopoil/spiritbears.

Go back and see his old posts that make up his "case" on liopoil.  He kept tying liopoil to mail-mi, saying if one is scum, so is the other.  Today, no mention of mail-mi whatsoever?  Why's that?

All this adds up to scummy mcmcsalot to me.  Town!mcmc is very different.  I think this is our best lynch for today.

[mcmcsalot]

your all wrong on me entirely, sorry im not paying attention my freaking basement is flooded because I lost power due to the thunderstorm that came with the tornado that hit last yesterday. When your power goes out your sub pump stops working and when that happens your basement floods so you want me to /out I will(i'll be pissed because I actually think I'm right) I'll make my case "pretty" and more fact based when I can reread I'm trying to stay a part of the conversation in the meantime(even when its just repeating what i've said)

[ashersky]

your all wrong on me entirely, sorry im not paying attention my freaking basement is flooded because I lost power due to the thunderstorm that came with the tornado that hit last yesterday. When your power goes out your sub pump stops working and when that happens your basement floods so you want me to /out I will(i'll be pissed because I actually think I'm right) I'll make my case "pretty" and more fact based when I can reread I'm trying to stay a part of the conversation in the meantime(even when its just repeating what i've said)

I'm sorry about the IRL issues that have come up, and I hope things are okay with the flooding.  (We had 4 feet of water in our basement once when I was in high school due to a crazy storm, so I sympathize.)

A lot of what I'm talking about is from before the tornado/flood news you shared, though, so "you are wrong" isn't much of a defense.

But we can understand that you need some time now before you are able to post fully.

[spiritbears]

I agree with Ash. We all hope you are safe and work out the water problems asap. But very little of of the criticism of your play is post storm.  When you get in a safe place and can respond in full I hope you will.

[yuma]

mcmc I am sorry to hear that your basement is flooding. That sucks majorly. Our basement flooded all the time and it is a miserable experience--one of the main reasons we ended up moving.

But I think the frustration a couple of players have right now is that you are not just "trying to be part of the conversation" but that you are aggressively pushing an agenda against liopoil (rightly or wrongly... I am not sure which at this point still because as you say, you haven't had time to present your "pretty case") despite not going back and rereading and making sure that this decision of yours is correct and that you aren't tunneling. Because what is tunneling? To me tunneling

For me tunneling is persistent and over an extended period of time while completely ignoring other solid other cases and rebuttles.

This is what you are doing. Blame it on your busy schedule, I am fine with that. But right now you aren't paying attention to other arguments, you aren't going back and rereading and you aren't looking at other cases. Like I said, it is ok that you aren't doing that right now... because you have some crazy RL crap going on. But what isn't ok, and what is frustrating is that you are continuing to push your agenda despite all of the real life craziness... and then adding more craziness to it by throwing out scum teams!

So to summarize: Take your time, get RL figured out, but in the mean time, don't be surprised when people react poorly to you coming out and saying (paraphrasing here obviously) "lio is scum! I am sure of it. I haven't gone back and reread or anything, but I am sure of it!"

[yuma]

and now we are all jumping on you. Sorry if you feel like you are being attacked. Wish I lived close enough to come help you out!

[spiritbears]

and now we are all jumping on you. Sorry if you feel like you are being attacked. Wish I lived close enough to come help you out!

Yes. IRL I would help you if I could at all, as I'm sure most folks on here would.

[mcmcsalot]

Thanks for the support and I apologize for being snappy. I understand the (valid)arguments for why I am not helping and thus scummy. I plan to address them and the rest of the game tomorrow around 1. I'm not sure if I explained I have work mon/wed/fri which takes up most of my day and tues/thursday I have class which does the same though usually with a 5 hour class(its ridiculous) they have a movie or something we watch in the middle where I can get mafia stuff done. Tuesday I had much less time than I thought I would.

[liopoil]

unvote on mgp. I guess I am a bit surprised that so many people are strongly declaring both mgp and sb to be town... Seems like it is the cool thing to do.

this is from a long time ago, but I don't understand why he unvoted here... just because everyone else is doing it?

however, I thought I remembered having a reason for finding yuma scummy, but failed to find one. the above is the only significant thing.

[yuma]

unvote on mgp. I guess I am a bit surprised that so many people are strongly declaring both mgp and sb to be town... Seems like it is the cool thing to do.

this is from a long time ago, but I don't understand why he unvoted here... just because everyone else is doing it?

however, I thought I remembered having a reason for finding yuma scummy, but failed to find one. the above is the only significant thing.

No. To clarify I originally voted mpg because I thought she did something scummy and wanted to investigate it further.

but it does mean I am going to focus on you a bit more, because it stands out (see my post above), hence the vote and the inquiries.

I focused on her for a bit and felt she reacted ok and unvoted. I didn't unvote because of everyone else. What I did was unvote and then express surprise at the "strong" reads people were expressing at that juncture in the game.

[ashersky]

unvote on mgp. I guess I am a bit surprised that so many people are strongly declaring both mgp and sb to be town... Seems like it is the cool thing to do.

this is from a long time ago, but I don't understand why he unvoted here... just because everyone else is doing it?

however, I thought I remembered having a reason for finding yuma scummy, but failed to find one. the above is the only significant thing.

No. To clarify I originally voted mpg because I thought she did something scummy and wanted to investigate it further.

but it does mean I am going to focus on you a bit more, because it stands out (see my post above), hence the vote and the inquiries.

I focused on her for a bit and felt she reacted ok and unvoted. I didn't unvote because of everyone else. What I did was unvote and then express surprise at the "strong" reads people were expressing at that juncture in the game.

How does this jive with your more recent interactions with xeiron? 

Total Mentions:
4: Eevee
3: liopoil
2: yuma, ashesrky, mail-mi, mgp, mcmc
1: robz, ahoppy, sb
0: nkirbit, sudgy

An eevee lynch looks quite good.
The fact that eevee tops this list could actually mean that eevee had the highest probability of becoming scum in this game.

We already know that the "most unobvious" according to this list, nkirbit and sudgy are not scum. I believe none in the next step, robz, ahoppy and sb are scum eihter. So the number of mentions clearly isn't that off.
Why not start lynching from the top?
vote: eevee

Say what? I know you missed most of day1, but I'll have you remember that this is day2. Your vote here is completely ignoring everything that we have learned from yesterday! And I would say that we learned a fair amount...

Your vote above might have been a good idea say during RVS or immediately after it yesterday. But today!?! No. Not w/o anything else to back up an eevee lynch, and from your posts above it appears you don't have anything else to back it up.

vote: xeiron for proposing a completely anti-town suggestion that I am surprised no one has yet called him out for, and for doing it in a scummy way (shortly after I started suggesting that others take a look at xeiron).

For the purposes of this game, they're the same person.  So for you, does xeiron get a pass for missing D1 or does he get scrutiny based on what you said was something scummy his previous persona did?

[yuma]

he doesn't get a pass. I mean he should have and did get a pass late day1. That is fair, coming in ~ 24 hours from the deadline. He shouldn't be accountable for stuff from mpg specifically (because he can't know her thought process or anything else.) But we should take into account the general... I can't think of the right word... aura?... that surrounded her before she left. If she seemed townie overall or if she seemed scummy overall.

And you have to remember that the quote that lio pulled was like 3 days into the game... compared to my quote from today during day2. Reads change man.

[ashersky]

he doesn't get a pass. I mean he should have and did get a pass late day1. That is fair, coming in ~ 24 hours from the deadline. He shouldn't be accountable for stuff from mpg specifically (because he can't know her thought process or anything else.) But we should take into account the general... I can't think of the right word... aura?... that surrounded her before she left. If she seemed townie overall or if she seemed scummy overall.

And you have to remember that the quote that lio pulled was like 3 days into the game... compared to my quote from today during day2. Reads change man.

True.  But how much of a read did any of us have on xeiron?  That's why I was asking how you were treating the changeover from mgp to him.

Your answer was fine, I guess.

[yuma]

he doesn't get a pass. I mean he should have and did get a pass late day1. That is fair, coming in ~ 24 hours from the deadline. He shouldn't be accountable for stuff from mpg specifically (because he can't know her thought process or anything else.) But we should take into account the general... I can't think of the right word... aura?... that surrounded her before she left. If she seemed townie overall or if she seemed scummy overall.

And you have to remember that the quote that lio pulled was like 3 days into the game... compared to my quote from today during day2. Reads change man.

True.  But how much of a read did any of us have on xeiron?  That's why I was asking how you were treating the changeover from mgp to him.

Your answer was fine, I guess.

Well I think that was the problem. It seemed to me that many of us were still giving him a pass and not even considering him at all... which if he is scum isn't good at all! And his decision to push a RVS style vote onto eevee struck me as scummy (hence the change from basically null to potentially scummy).

I guess what I am saying is that from what I remember mgp's play in day1 wasn't so super townie enough to exclude him from suspicion today, especially with behavior like that of above.

[spiritbears]

I've maintained a slightly more scum read on mgp/x but I think the case is still pretty weak. The eevee thing is weird though.
Mc I'm afraid may be town just playing a bad game. Which means at least some of my town reads (Yuma, ash, Lio, evee) HAVE to be off. (Null read Ahoppy, and Mai)..I don't like this position. I feel like we haven't really learned anything and we are down 2 townies....

[ashersky]

I've maintained a slightly more scum read on mgp/x but I think the case is still pretty weak. The eevee thing is weird though.
Mc I'm afraid may be town just playing a bad game. Which means at least some of my town reads (Yuma, ash, Lio, evee) HAVE to be off. (Null read Ahoppy, and Mai)..I don't like this position. I feel like we haven't really learned anything and we are down 2 townies....

For the record, I continue to have a town read on sb.

[liopoil]

Yuma's response is totally acceptable. Reads change. Mine sure have

[Eevee]

Sorry guys, I'm behind. Like haven't even read - behind. I'll try to get to it tonight.

[xeiron]

I totally understand mcmc's tunneling on liopoil, because liopoil is scum.

Here is the case mcmc did not have time to put together.

1. Liopoil have like no scumreads.

In his first 47 posts this one is the only one that can be seen as trying to find scum.
The rest are theory talk or interactin with other players.

I'm ready to Vote: Robz888

We gotta get this game rolling again, soft deadline on wednesday and we've hardly discussed any cases! Robz is currently my top lynch candidate, and now that I've re-read I'm confident enough to put a vote down.

Apart from robz, I think people should take a closer look at mcmc.

In his 48th post he is confident enought to to vote robz.

2. Liopoil never pushes his lynches

After he voted Robz he does not a single time argue why robz is a good lynch.
(actually, thats a lie, in post #504 he list some points made by others before him)

Yeah, Vote: Robz888. I do not support this lynch but it is better than mail-mi. L-1 now, please no derphammers.

He even unvotes when the wagon is nearing lynch-size, and then votes again when it turns out there is problems with landing the lynch. Though not without stating he does not like the lynch. And not without trying to get the others to vote.

Ahoppy, xeiron, mcmc, robz, wanna vote? I know mcmc and robz are already voting, but ahoppy isn't getting lynched and mcmc, your vote has been on me for ages and nobody has joined you.

Don't claim until someone states intent to hammer robz.

really, right now we need to hear from robz and xeiron.

To me, it seems like liopoil tries to get robz lynched, without getting his own hands dirty.

3. Liopoil is to much conserned about how we read him.

You are not caught up, you have not read, and you have not looked at anyone besides myself. Please place informed votes, thanks.

good luck finding mcmc's case on me...

I don't say "I know I'm town" to defend myself, (because that's a terrible defense), I say it as a line of reasoning. Granted, it's not a great line of reasoning, because you guys can't trust it.

second I KNOW nobody has done a re-read of me because nobody has mentioned the REAL reasons a person might find me scummy. for instance, I have been incredibly inconsistant this game, and that would be evident upon a re-read. I am still waiting for your case on me, mcmc.

Day two he keeps focusing on how we do not have a real case on him. Why not focusing on catching scum instead? It is not like you had mor than one vote on you..

and then we have this post:

I'm lining up my misslynches? what I said: "Apart from robz, I think people should take a closer look at mcmc." Anyone of any alignment would say that about their second choice for a lynch. Robz has been getting by far the most attention, and that's good. You haven't been getting enough attention. this statement makes just as much sense to be made as town or scum

This whole "both town and scum would do the same as I did" strikes me as scummy as it reminds me of how I was thinking (and arguing) when I was scum. Town usually do not think of how scum could act in just the same way as them.

I will leave a FoS: eevee
and vote: liopoil

[Robz888]

I am also way way way behind. I know SB isn't scum, I doubt mcmc is scum but he has fooled me countless times, and... yeah. Probably down for a xeiron or lio lynch. Know I'm going to be wrong no matter what.

[spiritbears]

I am also way way way behind. I know SB isn't scum, I doubt mcmc is scum but he has fooled me countless times, and... yeah. Probably down for a xeiron or lio lynch. Know I'm going to be wrong no matter what.

More of this please!  (Analysis and telling us where you're at, i am not commenting on how you see me)

[mcmcsalot]

reread posting thoughts soon

[Eevee]

Okay, reading through day 2 and commenting.

Final votevount:

liopoil (1): mcmcsalot
mail-mi (2): Eevee, AHoppy
LYNCHED--sudgy (7): liopoil, yuma, mail-mi, xeiron, Robz888, ashersky, nkirbit
ashersky (1): sudgy

Not voting: spiritbears

I kind of don't like how mcmc, sudgy and spirit planted their votes in places where they were surely not contributing to our lynch. I didn't join the sudgy-wagon because his defense "I always seem scummy to you when I'm town and you don't even notice me when I'm scum" really hit home to me. Mail-mi would have been a better lynch in my opinion, but I don't think anyone should have "known" sudgy was town so not fos'ing there.

Just by pure math 1 off 2 on seems most likely, but I don't know. I think it's noteworthy scum didn't have to jump to the lynch as there were really no alternatives (so no partners to save). I don't know, I think it's really hard to analyze where scum would want to be here.

[Eevee]

also, a mistake we've made in previous games is to only look at interactions from the current day, and forget about what happened previously. bad idea! that makes all the days essentially D1. So, let's re-read! I did some reading of over the night because I wasn't in pirates, but I need to do some more.

This is so true, but I haven't even been able to follow this day.. I'll be spending 5 hours on a bus on saturday, planning on rereading day 1 then!


Mcmc, can you explain how you can call your lio-case great if you didn't even know Robz is an IC? I mean that was a HUGE new piece of information.. How did the timeline go here, exactly?