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[Eevee]

Sparky was off wagon, true. But sparky did give his support to the wagon, twice. He clearly didn't try to stop us from lynching Kooshie. His off-wagonness was less scummy than your standard off-wagonness.

You are also scummier than him just because you are leading the town. You are the one pushing the cases, while we all appreciate that, it also means you are held to a higher standard.

[yuma]

Sparky was off wagon, true. But sparky did give his support to the wagon, twice. He clearly didn't try to stop us from lynching Kooshie. His off-wagonness was less scummy than your standard off-wagonness.

You are also scummier than him just because you are leading the town. You are the one pushing the cases, while we all appreciate that, it also means you are held to a higher standard.

So I take it that you would answer yes to all of my questions then. You really think I would play scum like that?

And I know that what I am using is a meta defense... and I hate using it. But at this point I have nothing else. I want to prevent my lynch because I am town, but I haven't played this game in a pro-town way despite my attempts. So that is all I have to give.

[Eevee]

The problem is, after you totally fool us enough times, it all boils down to "well why not.. he could just be anticipating what I think again..".

1) Not mentioning Kooshie doesn't absolve you at all. If it did, you could just choose to do that as scum!

2) I think scumyuma is pretty much as likely to do this as town yuma.

3) I think Jimmm is likely town. If I'm right, pushing his wagon is scummy. Even more importantly, we often think of this game alike. Here I know I as a townie thought Jimmm is likely town whereas you pushed for him. Makes you (a bit) scummier in my eyes.

4) Jimm's "bad play", not caring and general disinterest reads non-scumJimmmlike to me. Ozle's lynch I still support. Archetype was very onboard with the Kooshie lynch (as was Ozle, which is a point towards him being town), and I very much suspect mcmc too who you left out (for seriously being against the Kooshie lynch).


It's not a slam dunk by any means (although I find having you (and hopefully others later) responding to this case informational, but as you said, your actions this far have been scummy.

[yuma]

1) But what I am saying about this is if it is my strategy as mafia it is a terrible one because I leave myself in lala land and no longer in control of myself. This is a bad situation for mafia to be in. Do you remember MIII? I learned that lesson very quickly when I just sat back and watched volt get lynched. I took that to heart and have never played that way since. My argument here is that I am a better scum player than to adopt such a bad strategy, maybe it is egotistical, but it is my argument nevertheless.

2) is the weaker argument yes, but can you see town!yuma being more likely to do that, or just as likely?

3) this is false. Town leads the charge on townies all the time, it doesn't make them scum. It makes them townies that have incorrect reads. Jimmm had what 7 votes on him at one point? But there were only three scum (two if Jimmm is scum, but that is a disputed point). All seven can't be scum, so town must have been on that wagon. Do you see what I mean?

4) being on-board isn't the same as being on the lynch. And remember that was a lynch that was 100% going through, scum would want to join on that to buss to be less suspicious, especially at the end.

[Eevee]

4) being on-board isn't the same as being on the lynch. And remember that was a lynch that was 100% going through, scum would want to join on that to buss to be less suspicious, especially at the end.

Which is absolutely a point towards Arche's and Ozle's towniness so an even bigger strike against you, mcmc and Jimmm.

Other points: Look, I don't even feel very good about this case. It's hard to suspect you. But the fact to the matter is, you've been on townfolks throat all game and didn't participate on the fortunate day 1 scum wagon. You can't really talk that into not scummy.

[yuma]

4) being on-board isn't the same as being on the lynch. And remember that was a lynch that was 100% going through, scum would want to join on that to buss to be less suspicious, especially at the end.

Which is absolutely a point towards Arche's and Ozle's towniness so an even bigger strike against you, mcmc and Jimmm.

It can't be a strike against me. I wasn't online from the time that kooshie was at 4 votes until the lynch went through. I came online and was surprised that we had quick lynched.

And I think you are missing my point. If arche and ozle were scum mates with Kooshie they would want to join that wagon. And get credit for lynching their scummate.

[yuma]

Oh, and if I do get to the point where I am about to lynch. Don't wait for me to claim. I have nothing to share in regard to the map/roles/etc. I would like at some point to get my last reads and thoughts in before being lynched but if I get close to being lynched I am sure I will say something to the effect anyways.

Don't waste bankable time waiting for me to claim anything, because I won't be doing so.

[Eevee]

4) being on-board isn't the same as being on the lynch. And remember that was a lynch that was 100% going through, scum would want to join on that to buss to be less suspicious, especially at the end.

Which is absolutely a point towards Arche's and Ozle's towniness so an even bigger strike against you, mcmc and Jimmm.

It can't be a strike against me. I wasn't online from the time that kooshie was at 4 votes until the lynch went through. I came online and was surprised that we had quick lynched.

And I think you are missing my point. If arche and ozle were scum mates with Kooshie they would want to join that wagon. And get credit for lynching their scummate.

Hmm? That's what I'm saying! Their behaviour makes them seem townier than your standard offthewagoner.

Okay, it's a null read then (if that's true and wasn't intentional).

[Jorbles]

1. You say that because you completely ignored Kooshie you should be considered towny, but then say that you were not around to do anything before the lynch happened. I could take you at your word that you would not have done this as scum except that you then said that you didn't have time to do anything before the lynch, meaning that you didn't have time to act as you normally would have as scum. Your contradictory points are confusing (deliberately so maybe?) and don't make me read you as a town player.

2. Wouldn't scum!yuma be just as frustrated as town!yuma with the lack of lynches? I could see a scum player leaping at the chance to lynch mail-mi. A bad lynch at the time as it doesn't help us narrowing things down from people who were off the Kooshie wagon. I could see you being willing to pretend to change your mind to get a lynch through on a towny.

3. I too find Jimmmm scummy, but that doesn't mean I don't also think you could be scum.

4. I would be willing to lynch Archetype, Jimmmm or you. I tend to think Ozle is probably the towniest of the lot of you (those off and then on the lynches), but I do see lots of reasons why you could be scum, and have no qualms about voting for you. I've read you in games where I was sure you were town, but then you were scum. The actions I can be sure you made in this game make you look scummy to me, and that's enough for me to vote.

[yuma]

1. You say that because you completely ignored Kooshie you should be considered towny, but then say that you were not around to do anything before the lynch happened. I could take you at your word that you would not have done this as scum except that you then said that you didn't have time to do anything before the lynch, meaning that you didn't have time to act as you normally would have as scum. Your contradictory points are confusing (deliberately so maybe?) and don't make me read you as a town player.

sorry if that was confusing. I guess my point is thus: I can see why people would be suspicious of me for being off the kooshie wagon. but understanding why I was off the kooshie wagon is pivotal. What I am saying is that I didn't post anything about kooshie when kooshie was at 4 votes. To me that is not a scum!yuma move at all. In fact I think that is a horrible move by anyone playing scum (and I reiterate the point here that I learned that lesson in MIII when I just sat back and watched my partner voltgloss get lynched and then they came after me the next day because it was so terribly obvious). As such, I would hope that someone would recognize that doing so would be dumb, and that I am not dumb.

Another person might say, well, you would expect us to think that you weren't dumb!!! WIFOM! WIFOM! But it never works that way. Scum doesn't do stupid things in the hope that others will see them as townie. It is too risky.

[Jorbles]

1. You say that because you completely ignored Kooshie you should be considered towny, but then say that you were not around to do anything before the lynch happened. I could take you at your word that you would not have done this as scum except that you then said that you didn't have time to do anything before the lynch, meaning that you didn't have time to act as you normally would have as scum. Your contradictory points are confusing (deliberately so maybe?) and don't make me read you as a town player.

sorry if that was confusing. I guess my point is thus: I can see why people would be suspicious of me for being off the kooshie wagon. but understanding why I was off the kooshie wagon is pivotal. What I am saying is that I didn't post anything about kooshie when kooshie was at 4 votes. To me that is not a scum!yuma move at all. In fact I think that is a horrible move by anyone playing scum (and I reiterate the point here that I learned that lesson in MIII when I just sat back and watched my partner voltgloss get lynched and then they came after me the next day because it was so terribly obvious). As such, I would hope that someone would recognize that doing so would be dumb, and that I am not dumb.

Another person might say, well, you would expect us to think that you weren't dumb!!! WIFOM! WIFOM! But it never works that way. Scum doesn't do stupid things in the hope that others will see them as townie. It is too risky.

I don't think that you were dumb, but it really doesn't look like you were taking the Kooshie lynch seriously when you left. It was not at that point apparent that the lynch would go through. liopoil's wagon had about the same amount of votes at the time. You might have commented if you thought it was seriously going to happen, but not if you thought it was just going to be a blip at the time. When you reappeared it was already twilight, and it would be hard to express an opinion on the matter that anyone would take seriously.

And I find it hard to believe anything you spin so far after the fact. You've had plenty of time to come up with something believable if you were scum, and if you are town and telling the truth, I apologize, but I have no way of telling the difference.

[yuma]

well that is fair. Like I said I don't blame you for your vote. It is wrong, but I can understand why you think it is a good vote.

[Jimmmmm]

yuma, the problem I have with what you're saying at the moment is that the exact argument you're giving as to why you're not scum can equally be applied to me. I also did not comment on the Kooshie lynch because I also was not particularly engaged with the game and the time and I also would have done something about it one way or another if I was scum. And yet I "fit the bill for scum", even though we have a very recent example showing that the way I play as scum is entirely different than at least the way I was playing this game for the first 1.5 days. If you're going to apply the meta argument to yourself, then you need to apply it to others as well.

Also, despite the general consensus, I don't think mail-mi was a terrible lynch that Townies should have known better about.

[yuma]

yuma, the problem I have with what you're saying at the moment is that the exact argument you're giving as to why you're not scum can equally be applied to me. I also did not comment on the Kooshie lynch because I also was not particularly engaged with the game and the time and I also would have done something about it one way or another if I was scum. And yet I "fit the bill for scum", even though we have a very recent example showing that the way I play as scum is entirely different than at least the way I was playing this game for the first 1.5 days. If you're going to apply the meta argument to yourself, then you need to apply it to others as well.

No I completely understand. We are very similar in that respect. And that is why I don't blame people for nor am I surprised that they are voting for me. Because like I said, from a neutral standpoint, it appears to be a good lynch and if I were in their shoes I would also consider voting for yuma. However, I know that I am town and that it is bad lynch. But just because it is a bad lynch for me, doesn't mean it is a bad lynch for you.

Also remember that the crux of my argument was that you had direct interactions with kooshie--in that you were the biggest town read. The case on me lacks anything to compare to that.

Furthermore, I believe that I have been more "pro-town" than you in trying to be a leader and move this game forward--not guaranteed townie things, but generally considered more townie than scummy. But I am biased, so maybe someone else should determine if that is the case or not.

[sudgy]

Yuma has had the same read I had on mcmc day one of MXXI, the guy that looks suspiciously towny.  I might vote for him, but I'm not sure.

[yuma]

Yuma has had the same read I had on mcmc day one of MXXI, the guy that looks suspiciously towny.  I might vote for him, but I'm not sure.

all I ask is that if you consider voting me, contrast me to the other people in the same boat as me: archetype, ozle and Jimmmm.

I maintain that I am confident when compared side by side I am the more townie, I am also confident that there is scum within this subset. My best bet is archetype, followed closely by Jimmm.

[ashersky]

Yuma has had the same read I had on mcmc day one of MXXI, the guy that looks suspiciously towny.  I might vote for him, but I'm not sure.

all I ask is that if you consider voting me, contrast me to the other people in the same boat as me: archetype, ozle and Jimmmm.

I maintain that I am confident when compared side by side I am the more townie, I am also confident that there is scum within this subset. My best bet is archetype, followed closely by Jimmm.

So you find Ozle almost as towny as you find yourself?

[yuma]

Yuma has had the same read I had on mcmc day one of MXXI, the guy that looks suspiciously towny.  I might vote for him, but I'm not sure.

all I ask is that if you consider voting me, contrast me to the other people in the same boat as me: archetype, ozle and Jimmmm.

I maintain that I am confident when compared side by side I am the more townie, I am also confident that there is scum within this subset. My best bet is archetype, followed closely by Jimmm.

So you find Ozle almost as towny as you find yourself?

No. Not all. To use theorel's percentage system. I am 100% town. Ozle I would say is 50%. Archetype and Jimmm are closer to 25%

I do have more of a townread on ozle. Not huge, but certainly more townie than the other two.

[Jimmmmm]

Also remember that the crux of my argument was that you had direct interactions with kooshie--in that you were the biggest town read. The case on me lacks anything to compare to that.

Unless I'm forgetting something, the crux of your argument is based entirely on one post:

So many people!  I get them confused when I try to put into words what I think of them, but I'll try my best on who I can call to mind.  Maybe do a few rereads, even.

Jimm: Contributing, giving opinions, no reads, really, but otherwise very towny.  Actually, not many people have put in reads.  So, Lekkit, why point at me?
Raerae: Not much of a read, kinda towny.  Is Jimm's vote still on her?  I can't remember the reason.  At one point he voted her just because she said not to, if they were voting because of lurking.
Ashersky: Right now all I can think of is his tells.  He's pretty much stopped doing that, but it might take a little before something more solid enters my mind.
Liopoil: ahhh, him.  Don't like how he's tunneling and won't say for a second that I might possibly be town.  How can he be so sure?  Oh, yeah, if I get lynched and flip town, he's in a teensy bit of trouble.  He seems surer than he should be, though.
Jorbles: town vibes, but a bit of sheeping might have been in there.  Nothing serious, though.
Mail-mi: Sheeeeeeeeeeeepy.
Lekkit: also rather sheeping liopoil.  When he said he like liopoil's case on me and defended it, he still didn't vote for me.  He did soon after, but why not then?

Kooshie wasn't defending me, at that stage no one seemed to be suspicious of me as far as I can remember. If Kooshie was trying to save me from being lynched, then sure, but how often do scum actually call their teammates as "very towny" unprompted? In my experience in LoTR, I was perhaps over-cautious not to say I had a Townread on sudgy, and would not do so unless I had a very good reason to, such as everyone else was. To me, even without knowing that I'm Town, this seems much more like scum forcing reads out and having to choose someone to call Towny. I mean, I wouldn't go so far as to say that just because Kooshie called me Towny I can't possibly be scum, but surely in most lists like this from scum, they don't name a teammate as their top Town read. If I'm looking exclusively at this list trying to figure out who one of Kooshie's teammates is, the best I can do is to look at Jorbles, or maybe raerae, both buried somewhere in the middle of the list and both "reads" on them sort of hedgy but leaning Town.

[Jimmmmm]

Yuma has had the same read I had on mcmc day one of MXXI, the guy that looks suspiciously towny.  I might vote for him, but I'm not sure.

all I ask is that if you consider voting me, contrast me to the other people in the same boat as me: archetype, ozle and Jimmmm.

I maintain that I am confident when compared side by side I am the more townie, I am also confident that there is scum within this subset. My best bet is archetype, followed closely by Jimmm.

So you find Ozle almost as towny as you find yourself?

No. Not all. To use theorel's percentage system. I am 100% town. Ozle I would say is 50%. Archetype and Jimmm are closer to 25%

I do have more of a townread on ozle. Not huge, but certainly more townie than the other two.

Not that the numbers matter much, but for both of me and Arch, you're 75% sure that we're scum? Also, I think theorel's system measured scumminess rather than Towniness.

[yuma]

Yuma has had the same read I had on mcmc day one of MXXI, the guy that looks suspiciously towny.  I might vote for him, but I'm not sure.

all I ask is that if you consider voting me, contrast me to the other people in the same boat as me: archetype, ozle and Jimmmm.

I maintain that I am confident when compared side by side I am the more townie, I am also confident that there is scum within this subset. My best bet is archetype, followed closely by Jimmm.

So you find Ozle almost as towny as you find yourself?

No. Not all. To use theorel's percentage system. I am 100% town. Ozle I would say is 50%. Archetype and Jimmm are closer to 25%

I do have more of a townread on ozle. Not huge, but certainly more townie than the other two.

Not that the numbers matter much, but for both of me and Arch, you're 75% sure that we're scum? Also, I think theorel's system measured scumminess rather than Towniness.

I don't know... I guess what I should have said was that I am twice as confident in your and arch's lynch as I am in Ozle's who I consider to be somewhere around 50/50.

[yuma]

I disagree. Town does it. I did it on EFHW in MXX, Galz did it on mcmc in MXIX. But even more importantly was the way that kooshie gave that read on you. Guaranteed to include at least one scumbuddy in that mix, to do otherwise is just too obvious. You will also note that you are the only one on that list that wasn't on wagon. So either there was someone bussing in that list--which I grant you is a possibility--or you are the scumbuddy.

Out of everyone on that list, you were the scummiest.

[Jimmmmm]

Do you mean scum does it?

[yuma]

Do you mean scum does it?

yes

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.4

Archetype (1) -- yuma
Lekkit (3) -- Archetype, sudgy, raerae
Ozle (1) -- ashersky
yuma (3) -- Eevee, Lekkit, Jorbles

Not Voting (4) -- Ozle, mcmcsalot, Jimm, Insomniac

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. There are 20 days remaining. Deadline is May 6 at 7:00 PM.

So here we are.  What's the plan at this point?

From this, it looks like Lekkit and yuma are the viable lynches (subject to change, of course).

Lekkit seems to get votes for overall lurking, except to swoop in with some content on occasion.  Any other strong points against him?

Yuma gets votes for being off the scum wagon and on the town wagon and for leading town.  Yuma playing a strong town game can be a scum!yuma tell, given his propensity to seem very townie when he's scum.  He has also led town in such a way that he doesn't get suspected enough.

Anything else there?

We still have time (19 days or so total), but as this has slowed down, I thought I'd ask the question.