Shraeye, I appreciate the amount of effort you're putting into this case. That kind of effort is almost always pro-whatever your alignment is. But you're wrong. For town's sake I hope you're scum, because you will get heat tomorrow if this lynch goes through. I'll go ahead and respond to each point you make below. Let me know if I miss anything.
Reread Cuzz, topics in bold, starred ones are more important I feel.
**I don't think Cuzz was actually just skimming during the opening weekend
Cuzz was just vaguely skimming, but still had time to get in a Zing involving mcmcsalot/Robz.
...but that could come from robz being a sub par town player...
Kid catches on quick!
He says that this zing was just too good to pass up, and really is just skimming the thread, but really the quote he pulled came out of a fairly long block of text. Doesn’t look like just skimming to me. Either that or he’s just paying unusual attention to mcmcsalot’s posts.
Robz: Throughout the whole eevee thing robz took the lets wait for him to post and see if we can catch him approach. This is the exact thing he did in ZMIX , as an IC he offered very little of his own thoughts because he thought that would make it easy for scum to buddy. The plan obviously didn't work as is allowed mafia to run the discussion. So overall I think this is an anti ton strategy but that could come from robz being a sub par town player (said by him). His analysis on the cops seemed towny. Next comes more asking for other peoples analysis, and asking lurkers to post, neither town or scum read off this as it helps either one. Long time goes by and he mentions the fact that jimm and eevee could both be scum which is a definite possibility although i'm inclined to thing eevee is town.
Have to go to dinner now will finish up thoughts on robz sometime soonish? and probably wont get to the next person for awhile.
This is gonna turn into a discussion about my playstyle that will be very boring and fruitless, but here goes. Game started on a Friday night. All of the discussion up to that point was about the mechanics of the game, and the Eevee/Dsell thing, and I believe I weighed in on both. Some standard RVS, nothing too exciting. Then weekend began and I was busy. I don't think I am the only one who believes that this game was far more active than most last weekend. I skimmed the thread all weekend, but I don't
usually wish to post until I've carefully caught up on everything. One time, I happened to be skimming the thread, and that post from mcmc was the most recent one. It might seem reasonable that when I check for new posts, the
most recent one stands out and gets read a little bit more closely. Well this just so happened in this case and I caught the opportunity for a stupid joke.
I'm trying to explain what happened around this point in the game, but honestly what are you even accusing me of here? You think I lied about how closely I was following the game during a busy weekend? It helps if in your case you make some mention of why your point implies that I'm more likely to be scum, because I really don't see it here.
Cuzz tells mcmcsalot not to suspect Dsell
Here’s another interaction with mcmcsalot, when momsalon calls out Dsell for giving reads without any evidence. What sticks out to me is the last sentence, where it sounds a lot like he’s telling mcmcsalot not to suspect Dsell, instead of simply backing up Dsell’s methods.
I will definitely be giving reads today, I realize that there is a big target on my back. But I confess to not having many strong reads right now. Especially scum reads.
Town reads on Robz, Jimmmmmm
I guess slightly scummy on Eevee and TheMunch but those are very very weak reads.
I will go back and figure things out, school just started, life is busier and I have to settle into a routine. I will get around to things though.
I don't think this is ever a good idea, if you have reads but don't have time to explain them, say that and wait to post reads till you can explain. Saying town read on X and scum read on X with no backup hurts town in my opinion. Also I've noticed while going through this turns one post about reads into two posts, over 16 pages things like this are going to drastically increase your post count, this will later muddle the read on you which if you are town is anti town, I want an accurate reason to make town reads on people.
I don't agree with this at all. If you're town, saying as much about your thoughts as possible is pro-town, even if you don't have the time to flesh those thoughts out fully.
...
Also, there's no need to call out Dsell because he's town.
Again, what am I being accused of here? It doesn't count as part of a case if you're just summarizing things I've said without explaining what about those things leads you to think I am not town-aligned.
I saw mcmc pointing some suspicion at Dsell, and I mentioned that such suspicion is a bit silly at this juncture since all evidence points to Dsell being town. I just had this argument with ash a few hours ago and don't feel like repeating it now.
**my original case on him
The next big thing that pops out is his reaction to my case on him being “complete bullshit.” He then breaks it down point by point in response, but never responds to the big part of my case where he keeps giving off “but that’s not the right reason for suspecting me” tell.
my cuzz-case from before
response
I think the quote you're talking about here is this one:
And what's this scum narrative for me of yours that I'm fitting so perfectly? I'm not saying the idea is inconceivable but you're not backing up your assertions at all here.
You think this is scum being frustrated at being "caught" without reason. At a certain point, shraeye, I'm not sure what to say other than that you're wrong. I can only say it so many times. Eevee said some stuff that I wanted clarification of (and by the way, still never got. Check back: Eevee has
never answered the question in the above quote unless I missed something). But that's neither here nor there. As town, I'm not gonna say "it IS inconceivable for me to be fitting your scum narrative of me that you've yet to explain" because that's irrational. People suspect town of being scum all the time, so it is quite conceivable, albeit incorrect. You're doing it right now, for example.
**next thing
I was emotionally defensive in that game. I tried to guilt and manipulate people into not lynching me based on a "I'm sorry for making you suspect me! I'm town and I don't want to make us lose!" type of plea. I feel like my defensiveness in this game was based on a point-by-point rebuttal of what I thought were inaccurate positions taken against me. And if people think my defensiveness was over the top, it's because I was astounded by just how inaccurate I found some of these positions to be.
I don't necessarily want to get into a huge Cuzz-meta discussion though. I've tried to switch it up every time I've been scum, so I doubt it's helpful for me or anyone else to overanalyze it in this game. I haven't been town in a while either, so comparing to early town games of mine when I was new and sucked (more so I mean) at this game is maybe also misleading.
Here Cuzz is discouraging us recalling emotionally defensive in Casino mafia (MXVI), but when I read the second paragraph this time around, I get the idea that AGAIN he’s saying that we can’t connect him this time to his past-scum plays because he changes things everytime he plays scum….implying that he’s scum in this game as well. Vote: Cuzz
I'm getting more and more irritated the more of this case I read. Can you please reread my quoted statement above, and notice how in that paragraph, I advise against comparing my current play to my prior scum play AND my prior town play? And then can you read your quoted response in which you ignore half of that statement? Also my definition of the word "implying" must be different from yours because my statement implies no. such. thing.
**the deflection to lurkerGlooble
On a completely different note, I know Glooble is known for lurking, but would he really lurk to this degree as town? I haven't played with him outside of a random bastard game, so this is not a rhetorical question.
Nobody had mentioned glooble being suspicious (or really mentioned glooble at all in the past 2 days) at the time of this post. Pointing to a lurker when in a bit of trouble is a classic way for scum to deflect attention, and hopefully the lynch, to somebody else.
Then after a few people vote for Glooble, and cuzz sees that this lurker lynch is gaining traction he jumps on with this statement
So, Glooble's at 4 votes? Is there anyone who is opposed to the Glooble lynch? (I'm not opposed, I weakly support it...no vote yet.)
I can't see any good reason to oppose such a lynch, other than "Glooble always lurks." But it's anti-town anyway. There's a reason LaLL is a thing. The only post of his that's stood out to me was his accusing me of trying to lynch Eevee as quickly as possible which was pretty unfair. Even shraeye defended me against that.
Vote: Glooble
Which tells me at least that glooble isn’t on cuzz’s scumteam. This is another classic scumpost, basically saying that “well there’s no real reason NOT to lynch him, I guess we’ll just hope he’s scum…aw shoot, he was town, well I was looking for a reason to oppose the lynch as you can see, maybe he should have acted more pro-town”
You got me. Congrats. I was the first one to call out Glooble for lurking. I deflected to Glooble because I was sick of people focussing on me and suspecting me. I decided to steer the conversation to someone who I thought looked scummy. You know what conclusion this leads to? Can you guess? It leads to me not wanting to be lynched. You know who doesn't want to be lynched in this game? F**king EVERYONE. It does
not lead to me being scum.
more interaction with mcmcsalot
I defer to my elders as far as this goes, my only game so far has been a blitz game and mislynching was terrible but I understand with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch if it allows us to find scum on D2.
Is this in relation to Glooble? What makes you think that "with this many people it won't kill us to mislynch" is applicable here? It sounds like in your above statement you know already that he will be a mislynch.
Oh, good catch, I glossed right over that. Vote: Mcmcsalot
I don't necessarily buy this scum slip in multiball. Scum can't know that any other specific player is town.
I've also only ever used scum slip arguments as scum against town. They jump out at you as an easy case to build when you're scum because they're on your mind as what not to do!
Now this looks a lot like defending one’s scumpartner.
It's not though. I am not scum and therefore have no scumpartner. (Are you reading along, Munch? I said I'm not scum) This was simply me saying I didn't like the case Galz made.
**Cuzz gives reads, Jimmm and mcmcsalot reads are odd
Jimmmmm's above defense of me is much appreciated, and to me seems to go beyond mere scummy defending of a townie to build towncred (plus such things don't quite work in multiball anyway). It reminds me of the way in which Robz defended me D2 of XII which helped solidify him as town in my mind.
I now have a pretty strong townread on Jimmmmm and will not support his lynch today. I also lean to the townie side on Robz, yuma, theorel, ash, and Dsell (strongly in his case).
People I do not have townreads on at all include The Munschrayerae, Eevee, and mcmc.
In the middle somewhere are Glooble, liopoil, and Galz.
Glooble's response to his wagon seemed genuine, but I'm a sucker and as yuma explained, it could be easy to fake.
So now Cuzz has moved from suspicious of Jimmm to having a strong townread on Jimmm. Apparently all it takes is defending Cuzz. Well I hope nobody else buys townreads that way, because I’m super sure now that Cuzz is scum. There’s just too much going on here.
Note in the above post that cuzz puts mcmcsalot in the “do not have townreads” category despite defending the ‘scumslip’ that Robz/Galzria picked up on earlier.
Vote: Cuzz for emphasis.
I have a townread on Jimmmmm for a number of reasons, and don't want to go into all of them right now. But as I explained (rather carefully I thought) in the bolded bit above, the townread on Jimmmmm is partly based on the
way in which he defended me carefully and in detail. To say "all it takes is defending Cuzz" is a gross oversimplification.
Also, your comment about mcmc there is nonsense. I can have a scumread on someone and still disagree with a particular accusation someone else makes of that person. That's not particularly twisted logic and I am not sure why you're having trouble following it.
Cuzz's previous opinion on Jimmmm
#373 he has a bad vibe from JImmm’s bad Eevee case
#399
Oh I'm sick of talking about Eevee. But I will gladly listen to any compelling case you have on him.
I don't have a compelling case. But your complete 180 on Eevee is weird. You went from having a case against him, to saying "maybe this case is not so good," to suddenly saying you will almost definitely not support his lynch today. To me that kind of attitude should be reserved for someone you have a strong townread on, and I'm not sure where that comes from.
#403 he says that he doesn’t have a super strong scumread on Jimmm from this, but is a bit suspicious
#423 he says he agrees with everything in Robz’s post here:
Well, Jimm has managed to completely destroy the towncred he had in my eyes. His total 180 on Eevee makes no sense to me.
I actually continue to find Eevee scum, based on some of the better of the earlier reasons (I still say him not knowing his PM was an exaggeration at least), and also, what Munch said about him. He does feel off. And look, I usually get huge townreads on Eevee, and I'm usually right about it. The last game, Eevee was scum, and I did not get an immediate huge townread on Eevee. So I am at least somewhat competent at reading Eevee, and you know what? I definitely see this Eevee as closer to scum!Eevee than town!Eevee.
But Jimm, I absolutely do not get Jimm's unwillingness to lynch Eevee. Like, I am not willing to say "I won't vote for X" about anyone except myself and Dsell.
Raerae also said the thing about being against the Eevee lynch, and that also bothered me. Look people, something is off with Eevee. That's my conclusion, anyway.
I'm not sure what's scummier: Eevee, or not recognizing how suspicious Eevee is.
So anyway, my scumread on Eevee remains relatively high, and Jimm has now joined that list. He also looks like he's scrambling to justify his Eevee opinions now. That's not a good sign.
Vote: Eevee again, I guess.
So I suppose Cuzz is now very suspicious of Jimmm; at this point Cuzz is voting Eevee because of Eevee’s Cuzzvote where Eevee didn’t “back up a bunch of stuff from his explanation”. I suspect that Cuzz is actually agreeing more with Robz’s explanation on why people should be willing to lynch Eevee.
Aha, I think this post explains that Cuzz really is suspicious of Jimmmm for something
The issue I have is more with Jimmmmm than with you, raerae, but your "I'm in your corner" remark is causing me to attribute Jimmmmm's statements about Eevee to you as well, and it's possible you didn't mean to imply that you agreed with Jimmmmm about the specific thing I take issue with.
You are putting these quotes out of order, and I don't know if you're trying to intentionally mislead people here, but as the one being accused I find it really obnoxious. Check the timestamps, folks. I found Jimmmmm a bit scummy at one point (around January 7 as above). I now don't think he's scum (as explained later on January 12 in the earlier quote). What's the problem exactly?
PPE: I just reread my post, and do apologize for the excessively snarky tone. I don't really feel like rewriting everything in a more polite fashion though. Shraeye, I'm sure there are things you still disagree with, but please do let me know if you think I failed to respond to any important part of your case.