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[TheMunch]

What did my berries actually do?

Your berries had a chance to kill and a chance to doctor.  You actually could have saved eevee from dying to Galz bite N1 by giving Eevee the berry!

He DID give eevee the berry.  And Eevee did eat it.

Yeah I said could cause it had a chance to, but random.org didn't agree

[Insomniac]

FWIW if traitors had tried to NK TRAITORS or vice versa I would have strongly advised against it.

[Galzria]

Man, I single handedly killed two scum, AND saw right through another (Joth), and STILL lost with two scum alive?

Man was there ANYBODY on my town team this game? Sheeeesh!

[Jorbles]

Man Insomniac was so powerful. He had two possible teams to win with and he could redirect people's targetting from the very beginning. You sir, won at random.org.

[Insomniac]

Man, I single handedly killed two scum, AND saw right through another (Joth), and STILL lost with two scum alive?

Man was there ANYBODY on my town team this game? Sheeeesh!

Sorry I thought I was hooped when Joth lied about targetting me. And I wasn't sure how my fakeclaim would go over.

[Insomniac]

Man Insomniac was so powerful. He had two possible teams to win with and he could redirect people's targetting from the very beginning. You sir, won at random.org.

I'm Gengar BITCH!

[Jorbles]

Man, I single handedly killed two scum, AND saw right through another (Joth), and STILL lost with two scum alive?

Man was there ANYBODY on my town team this game? Sheeeesh!

I knew you were a PGO, I was just willing to take you down with me since I still had two team mates. I didn't think it was possible my kill could just fail like that.

However, I am glad the kill on asherky/Frisk's crazy cop power went through first night.

[Insomniac]

Ash COULD have found the fact there were to scum teams. Although I don't know how it would have reacted to me, was I both blue and yellow?

[Jorbles]

And hey, there were real post restrictions in the game!

[Insomniac]

Galz/Tables: When you guys started inquiring about how I used my power the way I did I thought I was hooped, what was it that sold you on my claim? (As I was the only one that full on lied through my teeth)

[Insomniac]

And hey, there were real post restrictions in the game!

There were but I couldn't tell you that. But I knew the ZZZ was more strict a post restriction then they would put in place.

[eHalcyon]

Now knowing the full setup, I have to say that the setup was heavily skewed against town and FOR Insomniac in a very unfair but not entirely obvious manner.

First note that there are 5 scum in a game of 13.  This is a HUGE scum population.  Now, this could still be balanced with scum trying to snipe each other, but that wasn't going to happen in this case for several reasons.

First, most scum were not aware there was a second scum team and thus were not gunning for them.  But second, and most importantly, Insomniac was in BOTH scum teams and was thus in a unique position to steer scum away from each other.

When there are two scum teams, part of the balance MUST come from scum attacking each other.  Insomniac heavily mitigated that possibility.

Finally, note that Insomniac was a KNOWN team mate to 4 other players and that he had the opportunity to keep the 2 on one side from going after the 2 on the other side, and vice versa.  Even though they were 2 teams, it is not a far cry from a single scum team of 5 which, I hope all would agree, is very unbalanced against town.  As it was, there were 4/8 players at the start who would not have wanted to see Insomniac lynched.  As the game progresses, there are fewer people who would ever go after Insomniac.  I don't see how Ins could have lost, really.

Now, perhaps balance was meant to be achieved in powers.  ashersky's Mastermind had high potential for sure, and Galz was pretty good too.  Archetype I think was actually strongest, even in his unevolved form.  But ultimately, the most potent power is knowledge and influence.  With four scum teammates, he had far more knowledge than town could overcome.

[Eevee]

Robz, I share your feelings of not deserving this win.

Also lol, I was wondering if our scum team was "normal" from the beginning.

[Insomniac]

Most of the town had pretty strong powers.

[TheMunch]

Loved the fake claims from Robz and Insomniac.  But I even told Shraeye I really thought that Robz was caught near the end by tables because Tables didn't know that Insomniac didn't know who Tables was targeting when he redirected.  I would have thought that the avoidance of Robz with the tracking redirect would have sealed his fate.  And then, even more so when Arch claimed and both Robz and Insom quickly jumped on that "oh he looks scummy just cause of his role" argument, I thought that someone would have gone, oh this worked terribly with Jimmm, why are robz and insom so eager to push that idea again.

I dont think that town was really that underpowered.  Town had some badass roles to counter gengar but autolynching people probably was not the best idea.

PPE: Regarding scum "knowing about the other team,"  Most picked up on it REALLY QUICKLY in QT.  I was actually surprised at how quickly everyone said "oh theres a second scum team" in their QTs

[Insomniac]

Now knowing the full setup, I have to say that the setup was heavily skewed against town and FOR Insomniac in a very unfair but not entirely obvious manner.

First note that there are 5 scum in a game of 13.  This is a HUGE scum population.  Now, this could still be balanced with scum trying to snipe each other, but that wasn't going to happen in this case for several reasons.

First, most scum were not aware there was a second scum team and thus were not gunning for them.  But second, and most importantly, Insomniac was in BOTH scum teams and was thus in a unique position to steer scum away from each other.

When there are two scum teams, part of the balance MUST come from scum attacking each other.  Insomniac heavily mitigated that possibility.

Finally, note that Insomniac was a KNOWN team mate to 4 other players and that he had the opportunity to keep the 2 on one side from going after the 2 on the other side, and vice versa.  Even though they were 2 teams, it is not a far cry from a single scum team of 5 which, I hope all would agree, is very unbalanced against town.  As it was, there were 4/8 players at the start who would not have wanted to see Insomniac lynched.  As the game progresses, there are fewer people who would ever go after Insomniac.  I don't see how Ins could have lost, really.

Now, perhaps balance was meant to be achieved in powers.  ashersky's Mastermind had high potential for sure, and Galz was pretty good too.  Archetype I think was actually strongest, even in his unevolved form.  But ultimately, the most potent power is knowledge and influence.  With four scum teammates, he had far more knowledge than town could overcome.

Axxle/Volt and Cayvie were also quite strong.

Also I thought I was hooped on the joth thing and my roleclaim.

[Insomniac]

Loved the fake claims from Robz and Insomniac.  But I even told Shraeye I really thought that Robz was caught near the end by tables because Tables didn't know that Insomniac didn't know who Tables was targeting when he redirected.  I would have thought that the avoidance of Robz with the tracking redirect would have sealed his fate.  And then, even more so when Arch claimed and both Robz and Insom quickly jumped on that "oh he looks scummy just cause of his role" argument, I thought that someone would have gone, oh this worked terribly with Jimmm, why are robz and insom so eager to push that idea again.

I dont think that town was really that underpowered.  Town had some badass roles to counter gengar but autolynching people probably was not the best idea.

PPE: Regarding scum "knowing about the other team,"  Most picked up on it REALLY QUICKLY in QT.  I was actually surprised at how quickly everyone said "oh theres a second scum team" in their QTs

I also thought when Robz followed me he was dead because it was sooo scummy.

[TheMunch]

I think the balance to the 5 scum was the fact that they didn't each get a NK.  In fact, Galz stayed alive twice for this very reason, while killing scum in the process.  I like to think of it (for balance purposes) as a 5 man scum team, where most of the scum dont actually know all 5 members of the scum team, so its a gimped 5 man scum team.

[eHalcyon]

Most of the town had pretty strong powers.

Don't get me wrong Ins -- I think you played fine.  But I am tweaked about imbalanced setups after RMMI.   I really do think you had too big an advantage. 

Or wait, oops -- math fail above.  It would be 4/12, not 4/8.  Not quite as crazy.  But still, that's good odds.  With 13 players, 7 are needed to lynch.  There are only 8 townies, so 7/8 townies would want you dead, and that's just not likely to happen in a town of 13, especially with scumbuddies steering conversation in other directions.

[Insomniac]

Both teams almost bussed me on day 1/2. I wanted to be like shut up scum friends stop bussing me

[jotheonah]

I thought the attempt wording was because If I posted a different nk in both qts only one would go through.

How was it decided which one had a kill?

also sooo many times I wanted to break my post restriction.


And I was SOOOOOOO mad when joth lied about targetting me after we planned to have that be the thing, cuz I made the tracker tables target joth specifically BECAUSE that was the plan. I thought I was done for along with joth. But then joths role was rolecop so it ended up making me clear!

I will never go off script again. I was face palming so hard.

[eHalcyon]

I think the balance to the 5 scum was the fact that they didn't each get a NK.  In fact, Galz stayed alive twice for this very reason, while killing scum in the process.  I like to think of it (for balance purposes) as a 5 man scum team, where most of the scum dont actually know all 5 members of the scum team, so its a gimped 5 man scum team.

Yes, but it is only very slightly gimped because Insomniac was a common link PLUS they had their own regular powers to use against the town.  Even a gimped 5 man scum team skews the game heavily in favour for scum.  In a town of 13, it's usually just 3 scum, isn't it?

[eHalcyon]

Both teams almost bussed me on day 1/2. I wanted to be like shut up scum friends stop bussing me

That would have been disastrous for you!

[TheMunch]

But I mean, who didn't think it was hilarious that there was an unlynchable scum (Jorbles) and an unnightkillable town (Arch)?!

But eHalcyon, we spent a lot of time working on these roles, I urge you to reread them.  There were a great many avenues for success for town.  There was a lot of ways for town to get in some killing, and a lot of ways for town to get a lot of information.

Question:  Was anyone confused by the Night 2 flip on Jorbles having him written as the wrong traitor (I think I wrote him initially as TRAITOR but edited it very quickly)?

[Insomniac]

Both teams almost bussed me on day 1/2. I wanted to be like shut up scum friends stop bussing me

That would have been disastrous for you!

Agreed. Anyways maybe it was imba because scum won but I mean looking over the town roles town had a lot lot lot of power. More so I think than any rmm game to date and I don't know how much that mitigates