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[yuma]

I'll join you in an analysis... promise not to cheat of your post if you finish first!

Abra /outed of the game I am running, Casino Royale, his he still in this game?

[yuma]

1 – Robz888 - I argued with him about the vig stuff, but I think basically we were saying the same thing, but I was suggesting that a vig shouldn't just listen to him--or anyone else for that matter--his "buddying" as someone called is exactly the advice he gave to someone, somewhere (cryptic I know) who was asking for help on how to not be so constantly lynched as a townie. Basically he said that you should agree with the case and admit that it has relevance... So either he is scum following his own advice or town following his own advice. Null read for now

2 – Jimmmmm - new player, not a lot to go off but liking the out of the box thinking he has shown. But could be scum putting out ideas to distract town. Appears to be more active and thoughtful than the game I saw him in blitz, slightly scummy read thus far

3 - cayvie - probably the most difficult person in all of FDS mafia for me to read. Her vote on eevee for "doc reasons" resonated as town to me regardless of eevee's intentions.

4 - Eevee - scummy read so far, which is kinda rare for me as I tend to not view Eevee very scummy. Wish I would have paid more attention to RMM3 to see eevee as scum recently.

5 - Captain_Frisk - VLA so null

6 - Abra655 - if still in the game probably a null read as not much to go off

7 - Lekkit - is posting, that is good. null read still though

8 - Cuzz - I think he had tried to push a weak case on me and then continued to try to push a weak case. slight scummy read coming from here

9 - theorel - town read, very much the same theorel I remember from MVIII

10 - Galzria - was quickly put on the defensive once he was in the game, said he was going to do a reread. Did that happen galz. town readish

11 - yuma - town

12 - Axxle - not sure about his case on Galz. Axxle could go either way on this; Axxle likes putting pressure on people to get a reaction and then gauge their reactions according and I don't fault him for that. But I didn't really like his "one of Robz or Galz is likely scum approach." So slight scum read here.

13 – raerae* - innocent child,

[theorel]

I'm through 3 rereads, and am off to bed.  I wanted to ask Robz about this though:

No space, oops, Vote: Theorel

I can't remember which game it was, but I thought that someone showed that via simulation, vig killing

was generally pro town? (Despite its terrible history here... so far only Galz has hit scum?)

I agree with Eevee here. The vigs-should-shoot-as-often-as-possible philosophy isn't new, and I

remember it being discussed before. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, but it makes no sense

to vote someone for a different opinion on that matter, since it is unlikely to be related to his alignment.

I think its well possible that Robz is trying to make use of people thinking that scum wouldn't start off

the game by expressing a controversial opinion on a meta-matter (I think Eevee was obvtown

because of something similar in some ZM, and no robz might be trying to emulate it).
So vote: Robz until there's something better.

It's not a controversial opinion. I didn't think it was, at least. My understanding was that everyone

who had actually played with a vigilante pretty much agreed that they should just stop shooting. But

maybe it was just me and Frisk (who unfortunately isn't here).

Did you mean Galzria?  Because Frisk really doesn't seem to share your opinion there.

[raerae]

@Lekkit, you’ve said you don’t have a lot to say because it’s day one and RVS is boring.  Exactly how do you propose we move out of it if you sit back and watch us spin our wheels?  You then complain about the soft-deadline I set without objecting to me being in charge of that after I clearly indicated I was uncomfortable with that decision.  You also criticize theorel for 1) not having much substance to his posts and 2) only coming out in RVS when you yourself only showed up once you called out for lurking and didn’t say much then.

I just don’t think you’ve had a lot to say and I don’t see how town is benefiting from keeping you around.

Vote: Lekkit

[cayvie]

13 – raerae* - innocent child,

did you have more to say here? just noticed you ended with a comma. wasn't sure if typo or incomplete.

i can get on board with a vote: lurkit i mean vote: lekkit

[cayvie]

oh that original quote was from yuma

[Robz888]

Lurking, say-nothing-of-substance Lekkit was town!Lekkit in M-VIII.

I feel like I'm becoming overly fond of using meta arguments, though. Still, he's like super consistent here.

[yuma]

Lurking, say-nothing-of-substance Lekkit was town!Lekkit in M-VIII.

I feel like I'm becoming overly fond of using meta arguments, though. Still, he's like super consistent here.

although you think he would have learned from that experience though and would post more as town to prevent getting lynched?

and cayvie I don't think I had more to say... i didn't fill out that list sequentially, but rather as I read, so I imagine I put the comma there thinking I might have more to say through my reread but didn't? I don't know.

[raerae]

Lurking, say-nothing-of-substance Lekkit was town!Lekkit in M-VIII.

I feel like I'm becoming overly fond of using meta arguments, though. Still, he's like super consistent here.

Consistently unhelpful, consistent or not, is still unhelpful.  Robz, why should town keep him around other than the fact that he played this way once before?

[Robz888]

Lurking, say-nothing-of-substance Lekkit was town!Lekkit in M-VIII.

I feel like I'm becoming overly fond of using meta arguments, though. Still, he's like super consistent here.

Consistently unhelpful, consistent or not, is still unhelpful.  Robz, why should town keep him around other than the fact that he played this way once before?

Because our goal isn't to kill unhelpful players; it's to kill the mafia-aligned players. The fact that he has played exactly like this once before (and was town), gives me pause.

[raerae]

Lurking, say-nothing-of-substance Lekkit was town!Lekkit in M-VIII.

I feel like I'm becoming overly fond of using meta arguments, though. Still, he's like super consistent here.

Consistently unhelpful, consistent or not, is still unhelpful.  Robz, why should town keep him around other than the fact that he played this way once before?

Because our goal isn't to kill unhelpful players; it's to kill the mafia-aligned players. The fact that he has played exactly like this once before (and was town), gives me pause.

Do you have a better read?

[Robz888]

You mean, someone I think is scummier? Lots of people are scummier, by virtue of not duplicating their exact town play, as Lekkit is doing.

[raerae]

You mean, someone I think is scummier? Lots of people are scummier, by virtue of not duplicating their exact town play, as Lekkit is doing.

So planning on voting soon then?  Or at least talking stuff up?  You've had a lot to say about how to play the game in general but very little about this game in particular.  Also, you've admitted to becoming "overly fond" of the This-Is-How-They-Play-Last-Time argument so maybe time to switch it up?

[Eevee]

Robz, i think a mafioso is more likely to try to exactly emuöate their known town meta. townies are more devilmaycare, especially so if they have no powerful role.

to get us moving before the deadline, i encourage everyone to either provide a list like yuma, or better yet, if you are like me and unsure about a bunch of people, do what i did earlier with yuma; reread someone (other than raerae) and give your opinion on that person. seriously, rereads are helpful, but a lot of work. rereading one playerin takes like 10 minutes with the all button and ctrl f on their iso username, and presenting your results will make it easier for others to determine what they think of hat player (so pick someone that hasnt been done already). i'll try to get on this too today!

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.8

Robz888 (1): Captain_Frisk
Eevee (1): yuma
Galzria (1): Axxle
Lekkit (4): Jimmmmm, Eevee, raerae, cayvie {L-3}
yuma (1): Cuzz
Abra655 (1): theorel

Not Voting (4): Abra655, Galzria, Lekkit, Robz888

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends on Thursday, December 20, at 4:30 p.m. forum time.

[Jimmmmm]

I was thinking about the "Lurkit" lynch today and wondering, both for this game in particular and also in general...

If we lynch Lekkit for lurking and he's scum, that's great. If he's town, well at least he hasn't been contributing much. But maybe that's a double-edged sword, because whatever his flip we're not likely to get any useful clues from it, since he hasn't said a lot and thus others haven't said much about him. If, however we lynch someone on the other end of the spectrum, say a Robz, well then worst case he flips Town and we can go back and reread everything he's posted as if he were an IC, and have a look at everything that's been said about him.

I'm not really sure which way is better with this. I know "lynch all lurkers" has been a common Townish strategy, but maybe lynching posters gives us more useful information?

Any thoughts? raerae?

[Axxle]

I think a lekkit lurk lynch is terrible.  He always lurks.

[Robz888]

I was thinking about the "Lurkit" lynch today and wondering, both for this game in particular and also in general...

If we lynch Lekkit for lurking and he's scum, that's great. If he's town, well at least he hasn't been contributing much. But maybe that's a double-edged sword, because whatever his flip we're not likely to get any useful clues from it, since he hasn't said a lot and thus others haven't said much about him. If, however we lynch someone on the other end of the spectrum, say a Robz, well then worst case he flips Town and we can go back and reread everything he's posted as if he were an IC, and have a look at everything that's been said about him.

I'm not really sure which way is better with this. I know "lynch all lurkers" has been a common Townish strategy, but maybe lynching posters gives us more useful information?

Any thoughts? raerae?

Jimm, I was mildly impressed with you, and then you go and blow it! 

We get clues from Lekkit's flip regardless. Like, if he flipped town, then we look at which fools lynched him despite his near-duplicate town play. Pay attention to the wagon joiners. That sort of thing.

Indiscriminately killing me just for the sake of killing a "poster" is bad for the game, because it eliminates one of the more analytical players. Sure, kill us if you think we're scum, but don't be too excited to lose us when we're not. Towns go downhill rapidly when they lose their best members. You'd be surprised.

Lynch all lurkers has not become a townish strategy. It's a gossip strategy; it rarely is actually used. Lynching posters is bad incentivizing, bad policy... and won't help us find scum, I'd bet.

[Eevee]

Robz, do you assume Lekkit would play different as scum?

[Robz888]

Robz, do you assume Lekkit would play different as scum?

Not intentionally. He would unconsciously acted differently. Over time, this would become more apparent.

This pertains to scum in general, not just Lekkit.

[cayvie]

Robz, do you assume Lekkit would play different as scum?

Not intentionally. He would unconsciously acted differently. Over time, this would become more apparent.

This pertains to scum in general, not just Lekkit.

in general, i buy this argument

but when someone's town meta is "lurks"

it doesn't seem that it would be difficult to replicate that as scum

[Lekkit]

@Lekkit, you’ve said you don’t have a lot to say because it’s day one and RVS is boring.  Exactly how do you propose we move out of it if you sit back and watch us spin our wheels?  You then complain about the soft-deadline I set without objecting to me being in charge of that after I clearly indicated I was uncomfortable with that decision.  You also criticize theorel for 1) not having much substance to his posts and 2) only coming out in RVS when you yourself only showed up once you called out for lurking and didn’t say much then.

I just don’t think you’ve had a lot to say and I don’t see how town is benefiting from keeping you around.

Vote: Lekkit

If you were't the IC I would have a scum read on you right now. Asking for thoughts on the deadline and not wanting to hear them is coming off as really arrogant to me.

I have yet to find the key to move out of RVS, bu it seems like both Galz and theorel manages that pretty well on a regular basis. Do you really think me participating in RVS would've made it end earlier? If it wouldve been super quiet I woulsve said something, but as long as the game moves forward, I dont really see the point in oosting random votes.

Also FOS cayvie for jumping on the lurker wagon when Abra is a lot more absent.

[theorel]

Alright, here's where I stand on everyone based on some rereads.  I also want to look at who voted for Robz to take him to L-3 and who's voting for Lekkit.

Robz-short version: An unusual amount of theory talk from Robz.  He is "loud" (as in active and firm in his opinions) usually, and this causes him to often pull heat.  He hasn't really done much in the way of analysis this game, which is usually his strong suit.  I'm never confident in my Robz-reads, but...I'm gonna give him a little bit scummy.  (Also he's been quiet today, which is contributing to the nothing but theory and defense which seems not-Robz-like)  Recently he's been defending Lekkit some, but I still want more reads and less theory from him. scumScore: 30 

Jimmmmm: Early part of the game he seemed to primarily try to engage Robz in vig-discussion.  But lately he's been giving good analysis (not necessarily good in the sense of correct, but he seems genuinely engaged in trying to solve the game (by picking out who's scum). scumScore: 20

cayvie: seems mostly like herself.  scumScore: 20

Eevee: has seemed more town lately, his early game still feels off though.  scumScore: 27

Frisk: He's VLA, and his couple early posts are pretty neutral.  scumScore: 25

Abra: He replaced out of other game.  He certainly has the newb-didn't fully realize what he was getting into vibe going.  scumScore: 25

Lekkit: Although lurking early, he's been coming out posting now.  He's not posting A LOT, but he is posting now.  I'd like to see where he goes.  scumScore: 25

Cuzz: He feels like he's trying to figure things out, but I think he's overly zeroing in on yuma who I think is town.  scumScore: 25

Galzria: The time as watno was short and had little content.  So, I'm treating this like just Galzria.  Galzria seems usual, he's posting large posts, I'd like to hear his opinions on someone other than Robz.  scumScore: 25

Yuma: He definitely reads townie to me.  scumScore: 15

Axxle: He's been pretty provocative.  I think harshness may have been what I was trying to describe earlier, which he claims to have done to help generate informative fights.  I don't disagree with this, but I think scum can try to promote "informative" fights that are designed to get town lynched.  scumScore: 27

[Jimmmmm]

I was thinking about the "Lurkit" lynch today and wondering, both for this game in particular and also in general...

If we lynch Lekkit for lurking and he's scum, that's great. If he's town, well at least he hasn't been contributing much. But maybe that's a double-edged sword, because whatever his flip we're not likely to get any useful clues from it, since he hasn't said a lot and thus others haven't said much about him. If, however we lynch someone on the other end of the spectrum, say a Robz, well then worst case he flips Town and we can go back and reread everything he's posted as if he were an IC, and have a look at everything that's been said about him.

I'm not really sure which way is better with this. I know "lynch all lurkers" has been a common Townish strategy, but maybe lynching posters gives us more useful information?

Any thoughts? raerae?

Jimm, I was mildly impressed with you, and then you go and blow it! 

Well that didn't take much. What's unimpressive about thinking about the ramifications of lynching and asking for people's opinions about my thoughts?

We get clues from Lekkit's flip regardless. Like, if he flipped town, then we look at which fools lynched him despite his near-duplicate town play. Pay attention to the wagon joiners. That sort of thing.

I find that particularly unhelpful. It sounds like you're suggesting we sit back and watch who people vote for without actively taking part. Obviously you're not. But it doesn't address the main point of my post, which is simply thinking about what and how much useful information/clues we can gather from a particular lynch, from the point of view of deciding who to lynch.

Indiscriminately killing me just for the sake of killing a "poster" is bad for the game, because it eliminates one of the more analytical players. Sure, kill us if you think we're scum, but don't be too excited to lose us when we're not. Towns go downhill rapidly when they lose their best members. You'd be surprised.

Please. You know I didn't mean picking randomly picking someone with a high post. I was comparing lynching one person people have a scum-read on to lynching another person people have a scum read on. Also, I think you're flattering yourself just a little here. I feel like you've said a lot without actually helping much. Sure, plenty of questionable theory, but as theorel pointed out, the only things you've said about this particular game are a couple of one-liners and a one-worder giving token reads because you were specifically asked for them. And of course, that Lekkit is obvTown because he hasn't posted much.

Lynch all lurkers has not become a townish strategy. It's a gossip strategy; it rarely is actually used. Lynching posters is bad incentivizing, bad policy... and won't help us find scum, I'd bet.

Okay, I'll accept that. I remember in one of the Blitz games you saying "I'll vote for whoever has the lowest post count", and getting at least some agreement. If you say it's generally used as a threat rather than an actual lynch decision, I believe you.

So Robz, I'd like to ask you to contribute something specific to this game. Who is your biggest scum read? Why? Do you have a particular quote to back that up? Is there someone who is acting distinctly differently than when they were Town?

[Jimmmmm]

Lekkit, I'm looking for a reason to unvote you. Besides our scummy UIC and people who have voted for you, what are some of your reads?

However, you do have a point in that I'd like to hear something from Abra as well.