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[Dr Jekyll]

There has to be a reason scum failed to nightkill.  Both Dent and Doduo were on right after deadline, and one of them is scum.  I do not believe at all that scum, whoever they are, simply missed the deadline to nightkill.

The question is:  does our being at MyLo instead of LyLo better support Doduo's supposed scumgambit, or Dent's supposed scumgambit?

[Doduo]

#426, by Durden, is flawed.

Vote: Doduo

Because he's lying scum.  Here's what proves it; his theory that Dent counterclaimed to not deal with a confirmed townie and an investigation on his 'partner' is insane.  Let's run through the hypothetical that Doduo wants everyone to buy.  He's the real cop, and investigated Tyler Durden as mafia.  THEN scumpartnerDent counterclaims, trying to gain credit by saying Zaphod is town.  If people still end up believing Duduo, then Dent just served town the second mafiaplayer (himself) for no effin' reason.

There IS a reason for scum-Dent to counterclaim in this way:  to make town less likely to believe Doduo.  Sure, if the town believes Doduo, then the entire scumteam just outed themselves.  BUT, Dent's counterclaim - backed by the argument "scum would never DO that" - makes it that much less likely the town WILL believe Doduo.  And if they don't believe Doduo, they lynch Doduo - and if Dent/Durden are scum, that wins them the game.

This is correct, Durden/Dent are going for the win by having Dent counterclaim. It makes 2 vs 1 rather than 1 vs 1. If one of them is lynched and we see the flip, they'll lose, but like I've said they only need to woo one townie to their side to stay alive today and then face a WIFOM battle tonight with who they kill. Either that or Ashersky made a quick judgment and didn't want to let me get away with a cop claim uncountered. Possible that Durden would have counterclaimed if his partner didn't.

And there was no reason to delay posting my cop result. I fail to see the merits of having everyone who's not a cop make up fake cop investigations, that only seems to add confusion.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Jekyll is seeing what I did last night, but choose not to post because I didn't want to lead without personal contributions from the innocent.

First:

Dent countered less than 10 minutes after Durden was fingered. This is so unnatural a play that my initial reaction is that Dent is telling the truth. He didn't even give Durden the time to fake it, or step up, etc. He simply stepped forward and counter-claimed.

Second:

Scum intentionally no-killed last night. Dent (I believe?) Suggested they simply missed the deadline. While possible, it's very unlikely given all three of the heads in question were around before we unlocked. Scum wouldn't need to go through the hassle of switching accounts to post in their QT a night kill.

Third:

Dent's arguments about "lynching the real cop first, then lynching the fake for sure D4" is ridiculous. My very opening post D3 explained that we were in MyLo. If we lynch the real cop today, it's game over. His missing this is a rather glaring oversight.

Fourth:

Dsell/Insomniac are Doduo. Certainly possible for them to be behind an elaborate no-kill, fake-claim plot. Ashersky/O are Dent. Given Asherky's oversight (intentional or not) above, I have a hard time seeing HIM being behind such an immediate counterclaim. O could handle it and the Gambit and WIFOM after, but it's not Ashersky's style. In the respect, I've got to believe that O was online, on Dent's account, AND active, AND cooked it all up, all in ~10 minute window.  That's not impossible, but O is so rarely around (forums in general. He's busy irl, and he lurks his games because of that) that it's a stretch to think all that was true.

Fifth:
Dent, as irrelevant as it may be (and I agree with you here), would you mind providing the investigative wording? You've written two or three paragraphs explaining why it makes no sense, instead of just giving us the results, pointless though it may be.

Conclusion:

I don't know. I don't like that Doduo didn't wait for others to chime in or discuss the no-kill night. Additionally, the odds of an investigation hitting scum are less than one hitting town. Dent's immediate counter-claim didn't feel forced either. If he's scum, and Durden is scum, this wasn't a win/lose scenario for them - but he single handedly made it one. Additionally, common knowledge is to "lynch the counter-claim first" - this could explain scum!Doduo jumping the gun, since if we mislynch the Cop they win.

However, many, many of Dent's posts since then have felt a little "off", whereas Doduo has felt a little more "in the right".

I would probably lean towards lynching Doduo here. There's reasons for me to feel otherwise, and as always I stand conflicted at mylo/lylo, but given the situation the game was in when the claimed, it makesmuch more sense to me for Doduo's claim to be an attempted scum gambit than for Dent's, especially given who's in charge of Dent's head.

[Dr Jekyll]

ashersky/Dent, why did you hammer Smeagol?  You say it wasn't O/Dent, which would be in character for O.  So why did you, ashersky/Dent, do it?

[Grujah]

Doduo, what was the result on Durden?  The wording.

Wording discussion not allowed. Now that all this time passed, leave it as ashesrky, be sure to sign who it was actaully, though.

[Doduo]

Jekyll is seeing what I did last night, but choose not to post because I didn't want to lead without personal contributions from the innocent.

First:

Dent countered less than 10 minutes after Durden was fingered. This is so unnatural a play that my initial reaction is that Dent is telling the truth. He didn't even give Durden the time to fake it, or step up, etc. He simply stepped forward and counter-claimed.

I think this is eager scum (I'm assuming Ashersky). They probably had talked about whether to counterclaim in their QT and maybe they had decided that if the cop investigated town, they would not counterclaim and they'd let things play out, but if the cop investigated one of them, they'd counterclaim. I don't know if Durden would have counterclaimed if Dent hadn't, but both ways have their advantages for scum. This way reveals both scum (to me only) but pits both of their claims against mine. If Durden had counterclaimed, Dent would have had to choose between bussing his partner and lynching the cop (and I expect would have gone for me, but he would have had to be more subtle about it). They chose the all-or-nothing gambit. If we lynch Dent (or probably Durden), scum loses, but if they get town to mislynch me, scum wins.

I think that rookie scum Ashersky was excited to try something they'd talked about doing in their scum QT.

Second:

Scum intentionally no-killed last night. Dent (I believe?) Suggested they simply missed the deadline. While possible, it's very unlikely given all three of the heads in question were around before we unlocked. Scum wouldn't need to go through the hassle of switching accounts to post in their QT a night kill.

I don't understand this at all. I actually do believe it's possible that Dent's just fessing up to lurking through the deadline but this seems really improbable to me. More likely is that they thought they were being strategic and that they'd gain some sort of advantage from this, but I believe they're just mistaken. I don't see an advantage at all except for town. I guess just ask yourself if you really think that Insom and myself (Dsell) would really let it go to deadline without submitting a kill. There's no reason to do that.

Third:

Dent's arguments about "lynching the real cop first, then lynching the fake for sure D4" is ridiculous. My very opening post D3 explained that we were in MyLo. If we lynch the real cop today, it's game over. His missing this is a rather glaring oversight.

This is why I will be so frustrated if town winds up mislynching me. These arguments are so BAD. Ashersky is getting extremely zealous for the win here, to the point where O is stepping in and trying to take the reins. This is far from the only bad argument, Ashersky (and maybe O some, too, not sure) is trying to get me to say anything that he can use against me, and he's already trying to twist my words to make me look guilty. But he's failed to produce a single good argument. Dent is a mix of overzealous rookie scum and coaching today, and it's so obvious.

Fourth:

Dsell/Insomniac are Doduo. Certainly possible for them to be behind an elaborate no-kill, fake-claim plot. Ashersky/O are Dent. Given Asherky's oversight (intentional or not) above, I have a hard time seeing HIM being behind such an immediate counterclaim. O could handle it and the Gambit and WIFOM after, but it's not Ashersky's style. In the respect, I've got to believe that O was online, on Dent's account, AND active, AND cooked it all up, all in ~10 minute window.  That's not impossible, but O is so rarely around (forums in general. He's busy irl, and he lurks his games because of that) that it's a stretch to think all that was true.

Look at it from my perspective. You are the cop, you've just gotten a scum investigation on Durden, would you do anything differently? I don't think you would. So the question comes down to what the scumpair would do in this situation. We don't know what scumAsher looks like so it's not possible to say for sure, but you know he's gotten some coaching from O and Shraeye and Munch (who's never been mafia, but has been scum) in the QT. I don't think he cooked it up in that 10 minute window though. I think he and Durden were trying to bait the cop a little and then see whether to counterclaim or not. When he saw I'd investigated scum he jumped in with the counter but from there he's been crazy and making bad arguments. I don't think it's fair to say it's not Ashersky's style when a) you've never seen scumAsher and b) he will almost surely have received coaching.

I don't know. I don't like that Doduo didn't wait for others to chime in or discuss the no-kill night. Additionally, the odds of an investigation hitting scum are less than one hitting town. Dent's immediate counter-claim didn't feel forced either. If he's scum, and Durden is scum, this wasn't a win/lose scenario for them - but he single handedly made it one. Additionally, common knowledge is to "lynch the counter-claim first" - this could explain scum!Doduo jumping the gun, since if we mislynch the Cop they win.

However, many, many of Dent's posts since then have felt a little "off", whereas Doduo has felt a little more "in the right".

I would probably lean towards lynching Doduo here. There's reasons for me to feel otherwise, and as always I stand conflicted at mylo/lylo, but given the situation the game was in when the claimed, it makesmuch more sense to me for Doduo's claim to be an attempted scum gambit than for Dent's, especially given who's in charge of Dent's head.

It seems silly to wait to claim. Maybe I'm wrong, I've never been cop before, but I don't see a reason to wait to reveal the scum investigation. If I had a town investigation I probably would have waited and talked about it but it wasn't. Your odds argument makes me cringe. There are 5 other people in the town, 2 are scum and 3 are town. Are our reads so bad that it's a straight-up 40% chance? Even 40% is hardly bad odds.

The posts you claim are "off" are, from my perspective, glaring scum attempts to get town lynched through any means possible. It doesn't hurt Asher that his meta excuses this action to some extent.

[Tyler Durden]

I dont understand why this is even a question.  There obviously is a very simple explaination for what is going on.  Doduo is scum trying to paint two people as mafia at the same time.  To doduo, it doesn't matter if Durden or Dent gets lynched; he wins either way.  To buy his story we have to believe this crazy master scheme.  Occam's Razor every time.

[Sakon and Ukon]

i feel like, had we just had the initial claim/counterclaim, i'd be likely to vote doduo. but durden/dent keep posting things like

I dont understand why this is even a question.  There obviously is a very simple explaination for what is going on.  Doduo is scum trying to paint two people as mafia at the same time.  To doduo, it doesn't matter if Durden or Dent gets lynched; he wins either way.  To buy his story we have to believe this crazy master scheme.  Occam's Razor every time.

doduo's actions had nothing to do with painting dent as mafia; dent's counterclaim did that

[Tyler Durden]

I again realize that I'm very biased here because I know Dent is scum, but his reasons for "investigating" Zaphod feel thrown-together. He says it's "because of D1" where Zaphod reads as scum to him, but it doesn't make much sense to investigate someone on night 2 based on day 1 reads unless very little of note happened in the meantime, and I think quite a bit did. He makes a reference to Smeagol's reads but I don't understand the relevance. Perhaps I need to reread the end of D2 to see what he's talking about but I thought Smeagol was more suspicious of Durden and, at some junctures, myself.

Does this sound to anyone else like Doduo thought the cop could investigate every night, which the true cop would never forget?

[Doduo]

I dont understand why this is even a question.  There obviously is a very simple explaination for what is going on.  Doduo is scum trying to paint two people as mafia at the same time.  To doduo, it doesn't matter if Durden or Dent gets lynched; he wins either way.  To buy his story we have to believe this crazy master scheme.  Occam's Razor every time.

This is such a fallacy. At the very least, one of us is telling the truth. Why is it any less reasonable for it to be me? No, if you look at the big picture, me being cop makes a lot more sense. Even Dent's reason for investigating Zaphod is not very good. You'll never change your tune, of course, but calling Occam's Razor on this is so ridiculous. It's not some "crazy master scheme," I've just figured out the setup. This happens sometimes. Scum still has the advantage that I'm the only townie who knows the setup for sure.

[Doduo]

I again realize that I'm very biased here because I know Dent is scum, but his reasons for "investigating" Zaphod feel thrown-together. He says it's "because of D1" where Zaphod reads as scum to him, but it doesn't make much sense to investigate someone on night 2 based on day 1 reads unless very little of note happened in the meantime, and I think quite a bit did. He makes a reference to Smeagol's reads but I don't understand the relevance. Perhaps I need to reread the end of D2 to see what he's talking about but I thought Smeagol was more suspicious of Durden and, at some junctures, myself.

Does this sound to anyone else like Doduo thought the cop could investigate every night, which the true cop would never forget?

What? The basis for why they investigated Zaphod was day 1 activity plus a single comment from Smeagol. It seems so thin. Of course we took in our reads from day 1 as well, but day 1 reads are not usually great. Day 2 reads are a lot stronger. That's all I'm saying and your attempts to catch me in a scumslip are increasingly ridiculous.

[Sakon and Ukon]

is doduo voltgloss?

doduo is voltgloss.

ok.

dammit.

[Doduo]

is doduo voltgloss?

doduo is voltgloss.

ok.

dammit.

Huh? No, doduo is Dsell/Insom. What difference would it make?

[Sakon and Ukon]

question

why are you playing with invisible mode turned on?

[Doduo]

question

why are you playing with invisible mode turned on?

Insom didn't want mafia to look at who's online and figure out it was us, he has this thing about dying N1... It doesn't matter now since our heads are revealed.

[Doduo]

How do you even turn it off? I just checked and it wasn't where I would have expected it to be. Would people rather it be visible?

[Doduo]

How do you even turn it off? I just checked and it wasn't where I would have expected it to be. Would people rather it be visible?

Oh nvm I found it. Unchecked vs checked box confused me.

[Doduo]

is doduo voltgloss?

doduo is voltgloss.

ok.

dammit.

I'm still curious why us being voltgloss would be so bad? Doduo, Durden, and Dent all headclaimed a page or two ago. And then a couple people have accidentally posted from their regular accounts.

[Harvey Dent]

2 quick things:

Was wrong on MYLO.  Agreed that the game ends in a mafia win today if you yech us.

The "you've never seen scum!ashersky argument" is patently ridiculous, as you've all seen scum!ashersky in Sea Hags.  So further scum points for Doduo for pushing a lie.

Go read my PR claim in MX.  This is that, where I have to fight tooth and nail to prove myself.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Durden, who do you think the scum are?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Also, Doduo, go back and read ZM3, where I was the cop, for an example of how I would've handled my investigation. As Insomniac is one of your heads, FoS you for suggesting I would do things anything like you did.

[Doduo]

2 quick things:

Was wrong on MYLO.  Agreed that the game ends in a mafia win today if you yech us.

The "you've never seen scum!ashersky argument" is patently ridiculous, as you've all seen scum!ashersky in Sea Hags.  So further scum points for Doduo for pushing a lie.

Go read my PR claim in MX.  This is that, where I have to fight tooth and nail to prove myself.

Oh. I (Dsell) didn't follow that game very closely, not closely enough to know that Ashersky was mafia. Sorry about that misstatement.

@Zaphod, that situation was different because you were confirmed cop. If I had come out with something similar, I don't think it would have flown as well because there was no guarantee that I was cop and I might be accused of waiting to accuse the weakest person or waiting to be counterclaimed or something. It's possible that would have worked though, I confess I wasn't thinking about ZM3 when I made the claim.

[Tyler Durden]

i feel like, had we just had the initial claim/counterclaim, i'd be likely to vote doduo. but durden/dent keep posting things like

I dont understand why this is even a question.  There obviously is a very simple explaination for what is going on.  Doduo is scum trying to paint two people as mafia at the same time.  To doduo, it doesn't matter if Durden or Dent gets lynched; he wins either way.  To buy his story we have to believe this crazy master scheme.  Occam's Razor every time.

doduo's actions had nothing to do with painting dent as mafia; dent's counterclaim did that

But when scumdoduo claimed cop, he knew he was going to be counterclaimed.  Doduo has also claimed that we were his investigation (even though we were his second scumread) because he also "knew" Dent was mafia already.

[Doduo]

i feel like, had we just had the initial claim/counterclaim, i'd be likely to vote doduo. but durden/dent keep posting things like

I dont understand why this is even a question.  There obviously is a very simple explaination for what is going on.  Doduo is scum trying to paint two people as mafia at the same time.  To doduo, it doesn't matter if Durden or Dent gets lynched; he wins either way.  To buy his story we have to believe this crazy master scheme.  Occam's Razor every time.

doduo's actions had nothing to do with painting dent as mafia; dent's counterclaim did that

But when scumdoduo claimed cop, he knew he was going to be counterclaimed.  Doduo has also claimed that we were his investigation (even though we were his second scumread) because he also "knew" Dent was mafia already.

I didn't say I "knew" already, I said he was our biggest scumread and you were our biggest question mark. We had the most to gain from investigating you.

[Tyler Durden]

Durden, who do you think the scum are?

Either S/U or Dr. Jekyll obviously. Right now I have no idea which way it falls. I'm going to do research on their interactions with Doduo throughout the game, and see if I can find out who it is.