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[Dsell]

SO MUCH LYING. This has just got to stop, it's crazy. Seriously, witholding information is one thing and I think it's fine, but completely lying in a way that will probably come out eventually is just so stupid and anti-town. It got Grujah lynched! And it's looking like Timchen's going that way too. I honestly don't know anymore. I was thinking earlier about people who've lied and people who've admitted to lying in past mafia games.

Admitted to lying:
TINAS (Mafia I) - Town
Jotheonah (Mafia III) - Serial Killer
Grujah (RMM I) - Town
Timchen (RMM I) - ?
Maybe others too?

Lied, but didn't admit it:
Nearly all mafia players likely. Glooble and I in Mafia IV, Robz in MII, Yuma in MIII, Ozle in Mafia I all lied about roles specifically (and there are more examples too).

So of all the admitted liars, TINAS is the only one who was actually an asset to his team, and that was a special case. Then there's Grujah, who we just lynched. Twice. As far as I know, ALL other liars have been anti-town.

So I'm just frustrated. I don't know what to do about Timchen. It definitely seemed that Grujah was town but that was based largely on the vps he had. I can't really do that same analysis on Timchen because he's been under the radar. I think I'd probably throw the hammer down on him but let's get some more discussion going first. Like for example I still am completely confused about cayvie and her power. If she has symmetrical powers with Tables, is something like this going to happen to him too, or should it have? I think we need some more explanation there because Tables went from highly suspicious of her to dropping the case really fast.

timchen admitted to lying - and then did it AGAIN and was caught.  That's a big difference than just lying once about his role.  Also - there are some other examples of admitted liars if one is to read other forum games on here.

I haven't followed resistance closely and I wasn't including BM games...I can't discuss MVI. I didn't follow MV super closely. Am I forgetting about some people who admitted to their lies in-game? Can you show me where and were they town or scum?

Timchen's "new" role sounds pretty legit, but it did before, too (aside from the early lying about unlynchability). I do believe him to be a pretty strong player, so I can absolutely see it as a gambit. I also didn't understand his explanation of the night actions, but really there's no way to know if he's even telling the truth about them so I guess that doesn't matter much.

[Dsell]

We are L-2 now, correct?

Also, I am fine either way on the Axxle situation, eHal.

Actually we might use Axxle's absence as a good reason to extend the day a little longer. Even if we conclude that Timchen will be the eventual lynch, we can probably do some good analysis before the day ends.

[Captain_Frisk]

No lying in M5.

You and glooble lied in MIV (and your lie was practically obvious), but neither of you admitted it.  I didn't follow M2 very closely.

[Dsell]

I listed our lies from MIV in the next paragraph. Pretty much every mafia member has lied at some point I imagine, but those were the specific (non-VT) roleclaims I could think of.

I was making a distinction between people who lied but never admitted it and those who lied but admitted it while still playing. I'm trying to decide whether the fact that Timchen has not gone to great lengths to cover up his lie is a point for or against him.

[yuma]

I think a replacement for Axxle would be good. I am not in a super rush or anything, but he said he won't be back til the 6th... That is a long ways away.

Maybe someone that can replace him on the condition that if the game is still in progress, they replacement will drop and let Axxle back in... Or perhaps they can play as a tag-team?

[Captain_Frisk]

We could put this on ice and play bastard mafia 4 reloaded.

[Captain_Frisk]

I think a replacement for Axxle would be good. I am not in a super rush or anything, but he said he won't be back til the 6th... That is a long ways away.

Maybe someone that can replace him on the condition that if the game is still in progress, they replacement will drop and let Axxle back in... Or perhaps they can play as a tag-team?

I did this with Ozle and Axxle in BM4 - let them talk via quick topic until they wanted to execute the transition.  I think its a reasonable way to handle it - assuming that someone out there is reading this - and wants to fill in for him.

[Galzria]

Anybody care to speculate on the other drops? Especially substantive ones? (Like myself, who fell 3 points). Do you think it was curse focused, or the result of role misfortune (hint: not caused by my own role, afaik)?

[yuma]

another question before a lynch occurs. I would like to use my protective power to best help town... I know that opening it up will also allow for some scum manipulation, but I think that is ok because if I feel that it is scummy I can just ignore the suggestions and pick someone else.

But I would like some input on who to best put the embargo on.

I placed it on Axxle early because he was at the top of the list.

The past two times have been on volt because he had the lowest point totals, but placing it on him again doesn't help with investigative or +VP purposes.

[Tables]

...If she has symmetrical powers with Tables, is something like this going to happen to him too, or should it have? I think we need some more explanation there because Tables went from highly suspicious of her to dropping the case really fast.

I screwed up with my Cayvie analysis, plain and simple. I'm still somewhat suspicious of him, but much less so. If it helps, I think I screwed up in a similar way regarding Robz on like day 5 of Mafia IV.

... I wouldn't be surprised if there's a serial killer, or some other kind of 3rd party (Heck, I discounted it yesterday, but plausibly, there could be a cult, considering no deaths and only one major -Vp award last night (=> no SK))

 

Tables: you didn't happen to find out if any new members were added to the Black Market when I left, did you?

Added in to Tables' claim, care to expand you two? Who else is in your cult/3rd party? What ate your wincons?

I currently do not know who, if anyone, is now a Black Market as a result of you changing roles. I might find out tonight.
I said I think there might be a SK or a cult. Well cult actually seems pretty plausible. I don't know if the very slow deaths were planned or just happened, but it means the cult is approaching 50% at a much slower rate than they otherwise would. Serial Killer, however, seems pretty unlikely, although some other kind of third party - survivor, lyncher, etc. is plausible. Probably much more likely than a cult, anyway. As for what ate my wincon, yo momma.

I would vote Timchen right now, but he's at L-2, which may well be L-1 and I don't want to end the day yet. But... I'm really not entirely convinced by his scummyness.

I do want to know one thing: Frisk, what card are you? I need to be sure of something...

[timchen]

You guys can lynch me. But please look at what I did.

I did lie. But what I did is protown. I targeted voltgloss and cayvie.
And my second lie is precisely because it may be powerful. It's like lying to hide a PR, but here it is a bit more interesting because I also want to take advantage of my ability when I have +VPs.

[eHalcyon]

Vote Count 3-3

timchen (6): cayvie, Captain_Frisk, yuma, Voltgloss, Lekkit, jotheonah
yuma (1): Axxle

Not voting (8): Dsell, Eevee, Galzria, Insomniac, Robz888, shark_bait, Tables, timchen

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Lynch deadline: Thursday, August 9, 5:30pm MDT
(But this is liable to change.  I won't end it early without some warning.)




Point Counter Extension 3.3

3 - Axxle
1 - Captain_Frisk
1 - cayvie
1 - Dsell
0 - Eevee
-3 - Galzria
-1.5 - Insomniac
-1 - jotheonah
-1 - Lekkit
-2 - Robz888
-1 - shark_bait
2 - Tables
-2 - timchen
-5.5 - Voltgloss
-0.5 - yuma

[Axxle]

Captain_Frisk, Dsell, Insomniac and Lekkit targeted Voltgloss.  Not all of them lost VP.  I'm still concerned about yuma.

[Axxle]

Also, I'm VLA not missing.  I'll probably post once every couple days.  Whenever I can/have the inclination to find an internet cafe.

[cayvie]

Captain_Frisk, Dsell, Insomniac and Lekkit targeted Voltgloss.  Not all of them lost VP.  I'm still concerned about yuma.

You guys can lynch me. But please look at what I did.

I did lie. But what I did is protown. I targeted voltgloss and cayvie.
And my second lie is precisely because it may be powerful. It's like lying to hide a PR, but here it is a bit more interesting because I also want to take advantage of my ability when I have +VPs.

realllly...

[yuma]

I'm still concerned about yuma.

why?

[cayvie]

oh never mind you mean you targeted volt night 1

[Eevee]

Are we certain about lynching timchen today? I have some info that could lead us into a probable mafia, but if we arent going to pursue it today, I'd rather wait until tomorrow so I can use my power once more.

[yuma]

Are we certain about lynching timchen today? I have some info that could lead us into a probable mafia, but if we arent going to pursue it today, I'd rather wait until tomorrow so I can use my power once more.

So Claim: basicly vanilla townie lol. That means: I'm not that valuable to town, dont direct any +vp's to me, but dont lynch me during day either. Having confirmed townies has proven to be very valuable to town in the end game (mafia III, sigh) and I promise I can verify my claims if/when need be.

So either I'm mafia trying to buy myself time even tho I'm in no danger (and also asking not to get any town happiness directed me) or I am what I claim and you should trust me. As I said, I think its quite obvious which one is more likely and how deck-aligned players should react to this and I'm hoping you'll trust me and I dont have to make a full claim just yet but we'll see.

So, you've got a role that you consider to be not that powerful... but powerful enough that you are pretty sure you can lead us to mafia?

[Eevee]

Are we certain about lynching timchen today? I have some info that could lead us into a probable mafia, but if we arent going to pursue it today, I'd rather wait until tomorrow so I can use my power once more.

So Claim: basicly vanilla townie lol. That means: I'm not that valuable to town, dont direct any +vp's to me, but dont lynch me during day either. Having confirmed townies has proven to be very valuable to town in the end game (mafia III, sigh) and I promise I can verify my claims if/when need be.

So either I'm mafia trying to buy myself time even tho I'm in no danger (and also asking not to get any town happiness directed me) or I am what I claim and you should trust me. As I said, I think its quite obvious which one is more likely and how deck-aligned players should react to this and I'm hoping you'll trust me and I dont have to make a full claim just yet but we'll see.

So, you've got a role that you consider to be not that powerful... but powerful enough that you are pretty sure you can lead us to mafia?

I got really lucky.

[Eevee]

But I see what you are getting at cayvie, I'll just claim.

I'm a town aligned Secret Chamber. Whenever someone targets a night action towards me, I can redirect it to any player I want. First night, no one targeted me so I did nothing, last night I got hit by a mountebank and redirected it to Volt.

Captain_Frisk, Dsell, Insomniac and Lekkit targeted Voltgloss.  Not all of them lost VP.  I'm still concerned about yuma.

So one of these guys is a mountebank, which is probably going to be curse-aligned, especially with how much VP Volt lost.
Unless one of you would like to claim a deck-aligned mountebank? (In that case it makes no sense to give scum any more info of the roles of others.)

My initial plan was to drop super power role hints, have scum target me all day all night, and redirect the attacks (hopefully back to them ofc). When I abandoned that plan, I thought I'd become an innocent child by arranging a confirmed townie to target me at night. Then I could have mirrored his action right back at him, confirming to that someone I am what I claim. That someone wouldn't have needed to to tell me his role to make that work fwiw. I'm still quite confused as to how this role should be played, it can be really strong or really weak, depending whats happening around me.

For tracker roles, someone targeting me and me re-directing counts as that someone targeting the guy I directed the action to, and me targeting that someone. I am told the card name, not the actual player.

As you all probably figured out, this makes killing me at night impossible (unless I choose to not redirect when scum targets me,). This explains why I still have 0 VP. Here is to hoping they cant deal negative VP during day..

[yuma]

Captain_Frisk, Dsell, Insomniac and Lekkit targeted Voltgloss.  Not all of them lost VP.

Man... there are a lot of things going on at night. Just about everyone seems to have a role that dishes out +VP or -VP. If what you say is true, in that these 4 targeted volt, they all should have received - 1 VP. But if someone else targeted them and gave out + VP--something it appears both scum and town can do, then that would counteract the - VP and they would look even.

If I follow your logic of assuming that just because they didn't lose any -VP I must be lying, then (again assuming I am telling the truth) I must be very suspicious of you because I didn't gain + VP Night 1 from embargoing you.

You know what, I am suspicious of you.

Vote: Axxle

[Insomniac]

Eevee. Are you sure they wouldn't read as targeting you still and you would read as targeting whomever you redirect it to?

[Eevee]

Eevee. Are you sure they wouldn't read as targeting you still and you would read as targeting whomever you redirect it to?

Yes.
For clarity:

X targets me.  I redirect to Y.  The end result is that it counts as X having targeted Y, and me having targeted X.

I am certain, it was explicitly mentioned in the role pm.

[timchen]

whoa... that's a super powerful role...