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[Dsell]

Hey man - I didn't put you over Pops and Jo - all I'm saying is that I don't have a read on you.  I didn't even accuse you of lurking in this post.

But you and a few others have accused me of lurking in SO MANY other posts and it's annoying now.

[jotheonah]

Mmk

Scummy
CF - Need to look more closely at. Stayed off my radar til late yesterday when he started to look a little scummy. He started the actual wagon on Grujah. Almost scum by default, however, as there's really only two people I suspect of being scum right now.
Axxle - Axxle2 is lousy with scummy behavior, but none of it egregious enough to get him noticed. I think he's very likely mafia. His vote for O was a bus.

Slightly scummy/ differently scummy
pops - not by any means cleared in my book. But he did go after O pretty hard. Like, harder than a bus hard. I'm willing to believe that our disagreement about SK hunting is a townie disagreement, but he's still wrong
Robz - Robz's play makes no sense as mafia. It makes plenty of sense as SK, but that's another thing.
jotheonah - I'm town. Double crazy would be a crazy strategy for the mafia. Also O's buddying of me was way too over the top and obvious. Even if I weren't me I wouldn't suspect me now.

Not scummy
Glooble - mostly town read. eager to hear from him on Day 3.
Dsell - town read. But actually mostly no read. Need to look more closely at him.

Highly not scummy
SFS/Tables - there's this tiny chance that SFS's bold role claim and clearing of Tables was a ballzy as hell mafia gambit and they're the other two mobsters. If this is the case, they will absolutely deserve it when they win.

I miss anybody?

[Axxle]

Very Scummy:
Captain_Frisk - for how O's treated him throughout the game.

Scummy:
Robz - likely the SK. 

Slight scum:
Glooble - mostly gut.  will have to reread.
jotheonah - wrong side of the lynch both times.  general random behavior. 

Unknown:
Dsell - I will have to go back and reread.  I always seem to have trouble with this guy.

Slight town:
popsofctown - I doubt his interaction with O were two mafia bussing each other

Anti-scum:
Tables
SwitchedFromStarcraft
Axxle2


After writing this I realize I need to go back and reread some of the player's positions on things.  I will have an updated list at some point, although I can't guarantee a time.

[Robz888]

Okay, great. No one else needs to do this, by the way. I was only actually interested in Frisk, Jo, Dsell, and Axxle's responses. I'm convinced everybody else is non-mafia, though somebody could be SK, I guess.

Based on their responses, I will have some thoughts later.

[popsofctown]

But I don't think Glooble is around right now, and I don't think I am likely to get an answer from Pops. I don't need lists from Tables or SFS, no.

i lolled

[Captain_Frisk]

Very Scummy:
Captain_Frisk - for how O's treated him throughout the game.

To be clear - I am scummy not because of my own actions - but those of another player?

[Dsell]

Very Scummy:
Captain_Frisk - for how O's treated him throughout the game.

To be clear - I am scummy not because of my own actions - but those of another player?

I don't know about Axxle but going back and rereading, I see a lot of IIoA from you, C_F. O threw down a second vote on you, but I don't know what to make of O's interactions.

Also after rereading some, I will say that because I have epically failed at reading O and pops this game, their interaction does not *fully* clear pops for me.

[popsofctown]

Very Scummy:
Captain_Frisk - for how O's treated him throughout the game.

To be clear - I am scummy not because of my own actions - but those of another player?

vote: Captain Frisk

[Captain_Frisk]

vote: Captain Frisk

I guess we know who's at the top of your list.

[Dsell]

vote: Captain Frisk

I guess we know who's at the top of your list.

Do we, though? Pops, you haven't listed C_F among your strong suspects or given a reason for your vote. You just agree with the arguments for him?

[Glooble]

Ok, I just caught up. I'll try to post some thoughts within the hour. Sorry my RL schedule this week is terrible timing.

For now I'll just say the one thing that's sticking out at me: pops, I don't buy that you forgot you weren't voting for O. I would actually buy that from most players, but it doesn't fit with my conception of you as a player at all.

I also can't buy pops as scum, though, because driving the bus on your own teammate when there were easy town targets out there (jo, Galz) makes no damn sense, but something in pops post #2324 gave me a very bad read. This normally tight-lipped player going into an overly verbose post to defend himself when no one is even strongly suspecting him?

If pops is Mafia, his bus of O was an extremely risky gambit. But it would be one that worked - we're all considering him cleared, despite suspicion falling on him days 1 and 2.

Ugh. Evidence suggests pops is town, but I still think its worth it to look back at his earlier behavior, especially with the knowledge that Galz is town. The way they were going at each other earlier day 2 still doesn't sit right with me.

[Dsell]

driving the bus on your own teammate when there were easy town targets out there (jo, Galz) makes no damn sense,

Uhhh jo may have been an easier target but I'm far from convinced he was an "easy town target."

[Captain_Frisk]

Do we, though? Pops, you haven't listed C_F among your strong suspects or given a reason for your vote. You just agree with the arguments for him?

Pops just doesn't want to give away his thinking (#2324) , or he doesn't want us picking apart bad reads.  His post shortly after Day 3 opening was surprisingly lucid - which is one of the reasons I dropped him to #2 on my list. 

There is absolutely no way that the town people among (Pops / J / Captain_Frisk) couldn't possibly heavily suspect the others.  I'm sure that in 2400 posts we've all said something scummy - my comment is that while everyone is criticizing my relationship with O, I haven't seen anything that really convinced me that I could be scum - other than the fact that I've mis-voted once, and declined to vote for O.

[jotheonah]

And I don't know what to make of your refusal to hammer me when I was at L1 with a self-vote even when you said you would do so on principle. Instead you pleaded with me to unvote. Explain that action, please.

[popsofctown]

vote: Captain Frisk

I guess we know who's at the top of your list.

Do we, though? Pops, you haven't listed C_F among your strong suspects or given a reason for your vote. You just agree with the arguments for him?

I put the reason for my vote right before my vote.

It's like talking to a wall with you people.

[Dsell]

while everyone is criticizing my relationship with O, I haven't seen anything that really convinced me that I could be scum - other than the fact that I've mis-voted once, and declined to vote for O.

...which is kindasortabasically two-misvotes. But I didn't vote for O either. However you were also on the Grujah (confirmed townie) wagon, although you did get off of it, which is something.

The thing that most bothers me is that you stated that you would be willing to lynch O D2, but when push came to shove, you refused to hammer him even if it meant a no-lynch. Also, like I mentioned before, IIoA. In addition, I pointed out early D2 that you were in a really interesting spot on the Axxle wagon, where you went for the lynch even though you made your vote look like scumhunting. That can all be found in #1296 on page 53.

[jotheonah]

vote: Captain Frisk

I guess we know who's at the top of your list.

Do we, though? Pops, you haven't listed C_F among your strong suspects or given a reason for your vote. You just agree with the arguments for him?

I put the reason for my vote right before my vote.

It's like talking to a wall with you people.

You mean the two-word post three posts before your vote where you quoted someone else entirely in a quote that didn't mention CF at all? You're right we ARE all dumb for not figuring that out.

[jotheonah]

Oh wait, you meant the quote in your vote post.  Yeah, that is a good point.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

vote: Captain Frisk

I guess we know who's at the top of your list.

Do we, though? Pops, you haven't listed C_F among your strong suspects or given a reason for your vote. You just agree with the arguments for him?

I put the reason for my vote right before my vote.

It's like talking to a wall with you people.

Except the people you dodge questions from perhaps? Is that more like talking to school children?

@ Robz - Can you give me a brief (or long if you prefer) explanation as to why you are so sure Pops is Town?  Also, do you believe him when he says he really was undecided on me in post 371?

@ Jo - You appear to be adept at changing gears during a game, so this one is for you.  What's your take Pops' change from 371 to 372?

[jotheonah]

You mean from 370 to 371? It's just pops being pops. Confidence in your reads, not a scum tell. Not wanting to explain your reads, also not a scumtell. We need to be looking for times when pops acts like not-pops. Like that longish post Gloob and I pointed out.

[Glooble]

So I tried to look back at the day one O/pops interaction with the information that O is scum. It was surprisingly unhelpful. He places a vote on page 15, when a lot of people are suspecting pops for his general playstyle and specifically for clearing SFS with no explanation given at the time. The pops wagon evaporates, lots of votes move towards jo and eventually Axxle1, but O just stay on pops the whole day. This keeps O's hands clean, which is probably why he did it. But I can see O doing this whether pops is town or scum, because pops is never really in serious danger of being lynched. It becomes a big WIFOM situation, because of course O knows that if he flips scum we're gonna look at his day one voting behavior, so what better than to park your vote on your partner. It's like free town points.

If we're asking the pops question, I also think someone should take a close look at his interactions with Galz, now that Galz is confirmed town.

Ok, This is going nowhere. I think I'm gonna lay off pops for a bit. My gut feeling today has him being scummy, but I'm just not finding rationale for that analysis.

I need to look back at CF. I can't remember his D1/beginning of D2 behavior at all, and all I stumbled upon while looking back over the pops wagon was jo saying he looked suspicious for contentless posting, and I feel like jo's said that about almost everyone at some point.

I am suspicious of everyone who could have hammered O but didn't. I sort of buy jo's explanation that he was trying to give O every opportunity to claim. I don't buy that pops "forgot" he wasn't voting for O, though I guess stranger things have happened. My reads on DSell and CF have been mostly town, but that may just be because I've never taken the time to analyze them. I don't completely understand while everyone is coming down so hard on CF right now. Let's tread carefully.

Sorry this post has been so stream-of-conscientiousness. I'm working on limited time and limited sleep, but I thought I should give my thoughts. Tomorrow is my day off, so hopefully I can contribute more productively.

[Robz888]

@SFS: I'll give you 3 quick reasons Pops is town, and then I'm probably not going to say much more about it.

1). His relationship with O: In light of the fact that O is mafia, he and Pops were too adversarial toward each other for Pops to be a fellow scum. In ran in both directions, throughout both rounds. A wagon can catch against anybody. The back-and-forth accusing and even some voting for each other suggests to me that it is unlikely they are both mafia.

2). Pops has engendered criticism and accusations from too many people for him to be mafia. In other words, other people whom I suspect are mafia, who have to be mafia, have gone after Pops.

3). His playstyle does not suggest mafia to me. He was too irritating, and indeed, it got him into some trouble. We have killed irritants for less. I can't see him deciding to play that way as mafia.

Taken together, I will rule him out as mafia for now. I could be wrong, sure. But there are at least 4 other more promising leads. So unless someone has a good reason for him to be mafia that outweighs the 3 counterbalancing factors I just gave, I'm not going to consider him.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

Unless you can establish why you need to know, I won't answer.  I see no reason to broadcast to scum what needs to be faked to earn townreads from me.

1) I need to know because I'm a player in this game.
2) I need to know because the only other player who took this approach to dodging my question turned out to be mafia.
3) I need to know because I allowed the only other player who took this approach to dodging my question to successfully dodge my questions.  I see no reason to broadcast to scum what approach needs to be taken to escape my examination.
4) I need to know because early on I made a big deal about holding everyone accountable for what they write, and that's what I'm doing here.
5) I need to know because to fail to hold you accountable would make me feel like a owaitIcantusethatwordorPopsmightwannavoteforme (but it sort of rhymes re-suplicant.  Sort of.)

[jotheonah]

Gloob, as I said earlier. Imagine you're O's scumbuddy. O is at 6 votes. It's two hours to deadline.  You have two choices:

1.) Don't hammer.  Pro: You have a slight chance that by some chance no town player will both be online and have the inclination, and your partner might miraculously survive one more night. Con: If someone does hammer, you look very scummy the next day, because you could have hammered but didn't.

2.) Hammer. Pro: You look really good. You have a nice retort to any accusations against you. Con: You killed your partner, who was almost certainly going to die anyway.

The scum choice is to hammer the sucker. We're talking about the textbook busing situation. And saying that CF and I are scum because we were hanging around not hammering is just silly.

[jotheonah]

3). His playstyle does not suggest mafia to me. He was too irritating, and indeed, it got him into some trouble. We have killed irritants for less. I can't see him deciding to play that way as mafia.

[sarcasm] The mafia team is me, pops, and O. Our master plan was to all three play crazy, irritate everyone, and get ourselves lynched ASAP. We're really good at this game. [/sacrasm]