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[jotheonah]

either, but not both, if that wasn't clear.

[Galzria]

Ok, reread 30 pages of forum. Not enlightening. Made my head hurt. Feel strongly like either Galz or pops is mafia, but my reads are shit. Anyway, Vote: Galzria.

Shh, be vewy vewy quiet. I'm huntin' Wabbits!

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

On another note, I'm pretty suspicious of SFS right now. This cop claim seems like a really good way to draw attention away from one or even two mafiosos, while offering the town almost no helpful information. It's also totally full of holes:
1. If SFS really is an investigative role, why investigate Tables of all people? Better suspects included: jo, who everyone wants to lynch; pops, the subject of the first bandwagon, who's alignment would have been so much more instructive to know (and who has consistantly defended SFS for almost no reason I should add), Galz, who led the bandwagon on a VT, theorel, who hammered it, Grujah, Me for that matter. I could go on, I just think Tables was a really random choice.
2. Why share this information immediately? This makes no sense to me. There was no discussion going about Tables, virtually no chance of him being lynched, and he wasn't even involved in the Axxle lynch. Why did the town need to know immediately that he was town? I don't understand SFS's reasoning here at all and it's bugging me.

But if SFS is mafia, he just made a lot of people trust both him and, potentially, Tables. A bold play, yes, given the high risk of a counterclaim (which we haven't had yet) but definitely worth it if people buy it. SFS, I could use a stronger defense on why you chose to use your night action in such a manner. Right now its looking very scummy to me.

1) I explained my reasons for picking Tables in post #1239 (p50). If you've not read it, please do so.  If you have, don't let me impede your venting.
2) Why not share the information immediately? What is the value of holding back?  There is a disadvantage to holding back - it may make your information less believable ("why reveal that now") if the info is provided at a particularly "interesting" time.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

I actually see Gloob's point. And Voltgloss's OP actually says there could be multiple of a role, so he's not in much danger of a counterclaim. CF, WHY would it be such a bad mafia play?

I agree that it's a weak roleclaim, but to come out and claim when most people seem to have written you off as a crazy townie seems like calling down unnecessary attention on yourself.

I'm sticking with Hanlon's Razor on my read here.  As evidence, I present today's isotropic leaderboard:

SwitchedFromStarcraft
15.610 ± 9.758   
983 games played

(No offense intended SFS)

None taken.  People who take offense at the stating of material fact (especially mathematical ones) either have something to be defensive about, or are Republicans.  I am neither.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

@Galz

Ok, you want the convincing argument for my radical change in playstyle? Here it is. During MII I was unemployed. I had lots and lots of time to analyze, quote, repost, be rational. Since this game started I've been working 10 to 6. I have time to stop in here at work and post a pithy response or two, but I don't have time for in-depth analysis. And when I get home at the end of the day, I'm just tired.

So, in light of that, and in the interest of experimentation, I started playing this game with a light touch. That doesn't come at all naturally to me, so it's been a weird fit. Probably would not try it again.

See past your tunnel vision for a second, and believe in my towniness. Or don't.

Emphasis mine
THIS.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

On another note, I'm pretty suspicious of SFS right now. This cop claim seems like a really good way to draw attention away from one or even two mafiosos, while offering the town almost no helpful information. It's also totally full of holes:
1. If SFS really is an investigative role, why investigate Tables of all people? Better suspects included: jo, who everyone wants to lynch; pops, the subject of the first bandwagon, who's alignment would have been so much more instructive to know (and who has consistantly defended SFS for almost no reason I should add), Galz, who led the bandwagon on a VT, theorel, who hammered it, Grujah, Me for that matter. I could go on, I just think Tables was a really random choice.
2. Why share this information immediately? This makes no sense to me. There was no discussion going about Tables, virtually no chance of him being lynched, and he wasn't even involved in the Axxle lynch. Why did the town need to know immediately that he was town? I don't understand SFS's reasoning here at all and it's bugging me.

But if SFS is mafia, he just made a lot of people trust both him and, potentially, Tables. A bold play, yes, given the high risk of a counterclaim (which we haven't had yet) but definitely worth it if people buy it. SFS, I could use a stronger defense on why you chose to use your night action in such a manner. Right now its looking very scummy to me.

@Glooble & C_F & pops

I ended up thinking at the end of day 1 that SFS probably was indeed just new to mafia and was playing how a new town might play. With his roleclaim today it really confirmed it in my mind. I don't see how that makes any sense for a mafia to do that, especially with his mafia partner/s' approval. I guess he could be a witch but it seems impossible to make any real case about that right now.

Glooble, you obviously see things differently. I think you are assuming that SFS is thinking about the game as much/the same way as you. I don't know how much you've played this game before but we're not all putting the same level of thought and strategy into it. So I just really, really disagree with your point. I mean, it's possible, but this is on the same level as SFS' day 1 conspiracy theories for me. I just dooon't see it being a thing. I think it's ridiculous that this all looks scummy to you when the MOST obvious scenario is that he just wanted to be helpful and use his PR before he died. If he was playing the game the same way as you or some others, I would be suspicious too, but SFS clearly has a different perspective on the game.

OTOH, I'm surprised to see C_F really jump on that analysis as suspicious. We are all trying to offer a new perspective: I did last night, and even SFS got points in my book when he put forth the (admittedly ridiculous) idea of an Axxle-C_F mafia pairing. That's the kind of analysis I think we should be rewarding, not seeing as suspicious. I think we can all tell what might be true and what's farfetched, or we should be able to as a town. I completely disagree with Glooble's point but I did not see it as a deflection of attention.

So today I'm still thinking jo is really suspicious, and C_F to some extent too. But jo, oh jo. How is counterclaiming on Galz an effort at good town play? Have you resigned yourself to erratic play? You are creating this terrible lesser-of-two-evils scenario for the town where you are either a really bad townie who's admitting your flaws with your words but doing nothing to change your anti-town actions OR you are a mafia who's been caught in his game and is scrambling/trying to keep up the ruse.

This...

So, in light of that, and in the interest of experimentation, I started playing this game with a light touch. That doesn't come at all naturally to me, so it's been a weird fit. Probably would not try it again.

...and other quotes make me really really wary. I just don't think you're a bad player! We all have to work with limited time frames, it doesn't mean we have nothing good to say. Look at Tables, you've posted ten times as much as him, and he still managed to have some good analysis day 1. You asked me a couple days ago (maybe yesterday?) what you could do to convince me and others that you're town. NOT THIS.

Vote: jotheonah

I am open to voting for others, though, and may move my vote around some.

Emphasis mine (3 times)
Boldface #1:  This has been the case all along for me, which is why my early posts were considered fluff.
Boldface #2:  Thanks for the support
Boldface #3:  You saying this raises a flag for me.  I certainly thought I reviewed ALL (there were so few it wasn't difficult) of Tables posts before putting in my night action, and I remember nothing of the sort.  Can you point me to the analysis you thought was good?

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

What about a SFS/C.F./TABLES pairing? SFS's conspiracy day one would be to incriminate C.F. as Mafia IF Axxle1 came up Mafia, which he knew couldn't happen.

He then opens D2 using Axxle1's town flip to exonerate C.F., while simultaneously continuing to play "new townie" by claiming to have investigated his other partner, Tables.  Thus removing all 3 from the frontlines.

Excellent point. That would, I assume, be world class play.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

Not like Roullette.  It is like he's saying he went all in before the River with pocket Kings and a King because only one card off the River could make a straight possible - and it did.



I hate poker.  No offense SFS

Hey man, no problem.  I thought I made it clear that I no longer play, and elsewhere on this forum I've posted the reasons why.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

...Hell, I'll go ahead and say it: We all know SFS is lying. The question is only in which direction (Its very very likely town). (OMG HE GAVE ADVICE AN IDIOT MAFIA WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DECIPHER WITHOUT HIS HELP HE MUST BE MAFIA): No, if we had an idiot mafia our choices would be a lot easier atm.

Emphasis mine.
I actually laughed out loud, so thanks for that, and for making the game (suddenly) a lot more enjoyable.

That being said, I like Robz's case against Glooble, and you clearly don't.  You also clearly cannot tell whose lying and who isn't. The intersection of those two sets worries me.  So does your disclaimer early in the quoted post (which I unfortunately deleted for the sake of brevity), where you say "Now, more out of boredom/desire debate then real disagreement (I haven't settled on your case yet), I'll ask you some questions" yet the post itself is pretty strong evidence that you DO disagree AND YOU ASKED NO QUESTIONS! (Yes, I know the last point ended in a question mark, but the words failed to pose a question.)

VOTE: 0 (aka .)

[O]

...Hell, I'll go ahead and say it: We all know SFS is lying. The question is only in which direction (Its very very likely town). (OMG HE GAVE ADVICE AN IDIOT MAFIA WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO DECIPHER WITHOUT HIS HELP HE MUST BE MAFIA): No, if we had an idiot mafia our choices would be a lot easier atm.

Emphasis mine.
I actually laughed out loud, so thanks for that, and for making the game (suddenly) a lot more enjoyable.

That being said, I like Robz's case against Glooble, and you clearly don't.  You also clearly cannot tell whose lying and who isn't. The intersection of those two sets worries me.  So does your disclaimer early in the quoted post (which I unfortunately deleted for the sake of brevity), where you say "Now, more out of boredom/desire debate then real disagreement (I haven't settled on your case yet), I'll ask you some questions" yet the post itself is pretty strong evidence that you DO disagree AND YOU ASKED NO QUESTIONS! (Yes, I know the last point ended in a question mark, but the words failed to pose a question.)

VOTE: 0 (aka .)

....I stopped after Pops said rolehunting was a terrible idea, but if you really are going to vote for me I'll explicity explain myself, which is nearly certainly not good for town.

[jotheonah]

O, one vote worries you so much you'll risk anti-town play? Don't be me dude.

[O]

O, one vote worries you so much you'll risk anti-town play? Don't be me dude.

OK, but SFS is just.... such a terrible, terrible townie. A TOWNIE NONETHELESS, sfs, but a terrible one.

[Galzria]

O, one vote worries you so much you'll risk anti-town play? Don't be me dude.

OK, but SFS is just.... such a terrible, terrible townie. A TOWNIE NONETHELESS, sfs, but a terrible one.

Maybe. But J is right. You are a much better one (than either of them).

[O]

Also if SFS hadn't claimed I would be trying to policy lynch him for bringing politics into mafia, and I'm a radical liberal.

[Galzria]

Also if SFS hadn't claimed I would be trying to policy lynch him for bringing politics into mafia, and I'm a radical liberal.

I think I got you beat in that category, but this isn't the place to discuss that. 

[jotheonah]

I have so little desire to know the political affiliations of my f.ds friends.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

also am i the only player under 30 on iso

If it's not clear from earlier posts, I've not yet attained that level.
I think I was on today about the time you posted this too.

[Tables]

I have so little desire to know the political affiliations of my f.ds friends.

I'm very very far on whichever wing you like less.

And I'm about level 25ish on Isotropic. Haven't played Dominion for a while actually. I reckon if I played enough in one day to lower my uncertainty, I could push 30 though (my uncertainty means that my actual average rank is about 4-6 levels higher than the majority around my level).

Also, I've seen nobody yet give a good reason for SFS being obvious town. It's only been a few hours, but I'd like to highlight that I either want to see the reasons, or see more people admit someone is pulling the strings about how 'we' feel.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

also am i the only player under 30 on iso

Are you talking about age, level or mean skill?  I think SFS is below 30 on 2 of those, but based on his recognition of Alice's Restaurant, I predict that he is over 30 on age.

Aww, I'm starting to think you guys like me.  For those supposedly paying attention, I believe I've already posted my specific age here in this thread.  I certainly have elsewhere on the forum.  Yes I'm over 30 (well over). And I likely wont see 30 as a description of the other two variables as applicable to me.

[jotheonah]

I have so little desire to know the political affiliations of my f.ds friends.

I'm very very far on whichever wing you like less.

And I'm about level 25ish on Isotropic. Haven't played Dominion for a while actually. I reckon if I played enough in one day to lower my uncertainty, I could push 30 though (my uncertainty means that my actual average rank is about 4-6 levels higher than the majority around my level).

Also, I've seen nobody yet give a good reason for SFS being obvious town. It's only been a few hours, but I'd like to highlight that I either want to see the reasons, or see more people admit someone is pulling the strings about how 'we' feel.

There was a lot of beating around that same bush on Day 1, in case you forgot.

[Captain_Frisk]

also am i the only player under 30 on iso

Are you talking about age, level or mean skill?  I think SFS is below 30 on 2 of those, but based on his recognition of Alice's Restaurant, I predict that he is over 30 on age.

Aww, I'm starting to think you guys like me.  For those supposedly paying attention, I believe I've already posted my specific age here in this thread.  I certainly have elsewhere on the forum.  Yes I'm over 30 (well over). And I likely wont see 30 as a description of the other two variables as applicable to me.

There is nothing wrong with being on either side of 30 on all of those metrics, I was just trying to clarify what the hell he was asking, and because I had actually looked you up, I knew about your iso rating.  I just commented on the age to get another Alice's Restaraunt reference in, because if the other people reading this aren't listening to that song RIGHT NOW, they are doing it wrong.

That said, it appears that you've been cleared (tables being an exception)  Is there any reason for the rapid fire posting responding to messages from many pages back?  Many of these really just don't seem like they warrant their own post.  What is your goal here?

[popsofctown]

I'm so lost this game.  I'm not sure Galzria is scum.  I think the scum likely have a low post count, just out of PoE logic since I haven't found any.  I wish Green Opal was still in the game because I could get a continuous read on that lurky slot.

Maybe we should just lynch Grujah because why not.
Which is not a good reason.

Someone say something brilliant.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

Ok, I wasn't going to get on today, but I need to respond to Robz's post.

Remember how I said at the beginning of this whole thing that jo and I have a RL acquaintance? That acquaintance is that we are brothers. In fact, we are identical twins. I have known him literally my entire life. This is why I seem so certain that he is town, I may not know mafia very well, but I sure as hell know how to read jo. That's why he seems so obvious to me.

That being said, if we were both Mafia, I would have to be the worst Mafia ever for defending him. I said it before, and I'll say it again - if I were Mafia, I would have bussed him on page five. This part of your argument makes no sense whatsoever.

The rest of your argument against me also makes very little sense, and you support it by paraphrasing things I say as things I'm not actually saying.  For example, "Jo is not mafia because Insomniac died?" - not what I was saying in my post. All I said was IF jo is mafia, than I can't imagine him killing insomniac, since he was clearly laying the groundwork to set him up for a lynch." What I was doing was taking something with two possibilities, and stating something which we could infer if a particular one of those possibilities was true. Because I'm not certain enough about anything to say "This is true because this is true". YOu, apparently, are.

Apparently I look like scum because I'm unsure about things, and I'm offering opinions. I'm "hedging" because I've seen lots of smart, experienced people be wrong about things and its made me pretty cynical. You, on the other hand, seem perfectly willing to take things at face value. "We can be sure, beyond all reasonable doubt, SFS is town?" I've seen the arguments for that one, and I still don't buy them.

But imagine I am scum. I look at SFS and see one of the most trusted townies in the game, and try and lead a bandwagon on him? I'd have to be a complete idiot. Even if I did manage to get him lynched, I would be immediately lynched the next day. Mafia want to lead bandwagons on people who look suspicious, in places where they already have allies.

You said, and I quote, "Either Gloobe is (forgive me) playing an all-time terrible game as town, or he is playing a somewhat un-subtle game as mafia." I disagree. I think the options are I'm playing a decent, if somewhat timid game as town, or the worst mafia ever.

Emphasis mine
Is this a tell?  In setting up this paragraph, you asked us to imagine you are scum - ok, we await the hypothetical. Blah blah, then the magic words "I would be immediately lynched the next day".  That would be true only if I flipped town, but you didn't establish that in the setup of the hypothetical, and I'm not sure it is assumed, especially in light of your feelings - you aren't convinced I'm town. So did you slip up?  'Cause the only people that know FOR SURE that I am town are me, the mafia, and Voltgloss.

[Captain_Frisk]

Someone say something brilliant.

I'm going to bed.

[Tables]

...  'Cause the only people that know FOR SURE that I am town are me, the mafia, and Voltgloss.

Even the mafia don't know for sure, if there's a witch. But your claim would be ludicrous for a Witch. In both a 'it will make you get shot up by the mafia in a few days' and a 'I don't think you'd have thought of it' way, but it's still a possibility.

Joth: I saw Pops saying SFS was obvtown on day 1. But all I've seen today is his claim, followed by a few people saying he's obvtown now and some sheeping of it. If it really is that obvious, it should be easy enough to give at least a few reasons, right?

This is just like the Galzria 'case'. From what I can see, some people have stated it, and people are now following it as fact without enough justification of the point.