Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Dsell]

In this game so far, there has been a LOT of material that's looked to me to be suspicious/scummy. It's rather hard to keep track of, actually. So here's a list of some things that have struck me wrong, starting with a list of where I was at yesterday and then an amended list to reflect some things that have happened today.

Yesterday's list:
popsofctown: His style really bothers me and he's been very underwhelming to me in terms of helpfulness. I would have expected more from such an experienced player. Since I really don't get a lot of his posts, I think there is a very real chance that he is using strategies that are way above me, but that doesn't clear him. I would expect town to be at least somewhat helpful, and he has been suppressing information and posts, rather than contributing. I don't at all like being manipulated. (p-p edit: just as I think it's smart to look at his bandwagon, I agree with his recent post that checking jo's bandwagon is a good idea too)

SFS: Tough to know what to make of him, but his dearth of substance has NOT built up any trust with me. I am glad that he has attempted some substance so I am willing to wait things out with him. Even his substance, though, has not made me feel much better. I seriously, seriously have my eye on him.

Grujah: His vote for pops felt the most bandwagony to me. He gave no real reason, but what interests me most is his defense: intentionally bandwagoning and then deflecting attention. Finally, he pointed out that pops was online but not answering answering. He then disappeared himself. I don't know what to make of his activity as a whole, but this series of events struck me as very strange. (p-p edit: also do not like him repeatedly touting how impressionable he is...if nothing else it is a weakness he should not show)

Theorel: Of his minimal content yesterday, what I saw looked copied and pasted from the "how a mafiosa wants to appear" playbook. Not enough to build a case on but enough to pique my interest.

Also minimally suspicious of jo and Axxle.

Updated to reflect more of today's posts:

Theorel: A lot of new posts that seem really straight up. Not suspicious anymore, I think he could be a real asset to the town.

jo: I think that I need to go back and review some more of what's happened since I was reading quickly to try to catch up, but his defense seems almost frantic to me. Chill out man. Also the "I'm mafia" thing. Just bad bad bad bad. More suspicious today, need to go back and review some more though.

pops: What can I say? Both he and SFS are now going against Robz and he is again telling us "we should all just copy him." Why? No! Give me a better reason man! On that note, SFS is now a former poker player? Not sure how this reflects on things but his self-deprecation just got more suspicious to me.

[O]

I do find it interesting that:

A. My vote was largely ignored for a while.
B. DSell was politely defensive.
C. You were then dismissive AND then hedged with a maybe.
D. No-one else has jumped on or expressed any interest.

I like how you put my actions in a mafia narrative.
@A I had sleep and then graduation practice
@B You're correct here
@C I was dismissive of your crap logic, and not dismissive of your not crap logic. Neither of those was an indicator of my overall suspicion of Dsell
@D Nobody has, very true. None of either the mafia or the town (or SK) has found your claim very substantitive. Just like people always seem to ignore it when I cast suspicion on you.

[Axxle]

A similar philosophy applies to being the victim of a lynch.  While it does hurt to be the victim of a lynch, you can easily have an overall positive impact on the game as a lynch victim. 

This is something I've been thinking a lot about. I went into this game thinking "I'm not just town but VT, I'm totally expendable, so I'm just gonna say whatever cause I don't care about being lynched. But then when people started voting for me I defaulted to my OMG don't kill me mindset, which I guess is a pretty natural way to feel? Only, that mindset made more people think I was scum than anything else I'd done. So now that I've taken my cooldown time, I think I'm OK with being lynched if that's the way things are going to go.  After all, I already survived a whole game of Mafia and I'm currently playing in another one. All other things equal, I'd rather give the newer players a longer game.

One thing I'll say, being honest, is that I think the thing in this game I'm best at (or at least feel the most confident about) is defending myself, so I tend to jump into that. It's easy for me to pick apart other people's arguments. I did that all the time in high school debate and college philosophy courses and really loved doing it. But I'm just not as good at scumhunting or at constructing a good argument in the first place.  So I play to my strengths and it inevitably makes me look scummy.

Vote: Jotheonah
I'm concurrently looking through J's old posts and keeping up with the thread but I think my vote will go to J for this incredibly premature VT roleclaim.

[Axxle]

longpost

Yay, pops is back.  From this post it looks like you're going to post like this more often, do that.

[O]

I do find it interesting that:

A. My vote was largely ignored for a while.
B. DSell was politely defensive.
C. You were then dismissive AND then hedged with a maybe.
D. No-one else has jumped on or expressed any interest.

I like how you put my actions in a mafia narrative.
@A I had sleep and then graduation practice
@B You're correct here
@C I was dismissive of your crap logic, and not dismissive of your not crap logic. Neither of those was an indicator of my overall suspicion of Dsell
@D Nobody has, very true. None of either the mafia or the town (or SK) has found your claim very substantitive. Just like people always seem to ignore it when I cast suspicion on you.

@@A

My point is poorly spoken. My point is that *other* people, not just me, have commitments and lives 

[Voltgloss]

Axxle, O, and jotheonah were searching the Estate's Library for the elusive portcullis key.  Axxle was methodically perusing the stacks and searching areas that appeared recently disturbed.  jotheonah had brought out a stepladder and was scanning the tops of the shelves.

O, meanwhile, had somewhere acquired a large sheet of paper and was sliding it under the quarter-inch gap between the shelves and the floor.

Axxle cocked an eyebrow at O.  "They couldn't hide the key under there."

O looked up and grinned.  "Maybe it's a keycard!"

....

jotheonah:  "I worry about you, O."

Vote Count 1-7

Robz888 (1) - SwitchedFromStarcraft
popsofctown (3) - Insomniac, O, Grujah
Grujah (2) - theorel, Glooble
jotheonah (4) - Green Opal, Galzria, Tables, Axxle
Dsell (1) - Captain_Frisk
Glooble (1) - popsofctown

Not Voting {3} - Robz888, Dsell, jotheonah

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

[Dsell]

I went into this game thinking "I'm not just town but VT, I'm totally expendable, so I'm just gonna say whatever cause I don't care about being lynched.

Goodness gracious, jo, for the love of all things holy, STOP TALKING LIKE THIS. This is either incredibly stupid town play or a mafia bluff to deflect attention and both are BAD.

[Dsell]

I do find it interesting that:

A. My vote was largely ignored for a while.
B. DSell was politely defensive.
C. You were then dismissive AND then hedged with a maybe.
D. No-one else has jumped on or expressed any interest.

Contrast this to pops

A. Acts like a jerk.
B. Refuses to defend himself and taunts the town.
C. Bandwagon starts and grows fast, both with votes and suspicions.
D. Calms down as its clear that the frenzy isn't quite enough.

I'm not quite sure who you are addressing here? It doesn't sound like you are addressing me. I'm also not sure what your conclusions are. In case it was to me, I didn't ignore your vote, I responded as soon as I could after catching up.

[jotheonah]

A similar philosophy applies to being the victim of a lynch.  While it does hurt to be the victim of a lynch, you can easily have an overall positive impact on the game as a lynch victim. 

This is something I've been thinking a lot about. I went into this game thinking "I'm not just town but VT, I'm totally expendable, so I'm just gonna say whatever cause I don't care about being lynched. But then when people started voting for me I defaulted to my OMG don't kill me mindset, which I guess is a pretty natural way to feel? Only, that mindset made more people think I was scum than anything else I'd done. So now that I've taken my cooldown time, I think I'm OK with being lynched if that's the way things are going to go.  After all, I already survived a whole game of Mafia and I'm currently playing in another one. All other things equal, I'd rather give the newer players a longer game.

One thing I'll say, being honest, is that I think the thing in this game I'm best at (or at least feel the most confident about) is defending myself, so I tend to jump into that. It's easy for me to pick apart other people's arguments. I did that all the time in high school debate and college philosophy courses and really loved doing it. But I'm just not as good at scumhunting or at constructing a good argument in the first place.  So I play to my strengths and it inevitably makes me look scummy.

Vote: Jotheonah
I'm concurrently looking through J's old posts and keeping up with the thread but I think my vote will go to J for this incredibly premature VT roleclaim.

You really consider VT to be a roleclaim? It's a terrible play for me as mafia, as it removes my option of later claiming an actual role.  As town role, it's an ok claim if it keeps me from getting lynched but a very problematic one if I want to be believed later. As town though? Explain why it's anti-town for a VT to claim VT.

[O]

A similar philosophy applies to being the victim of a lynch.  While it does hurt to be the victim of a lynch, you can easily have an overall positive impact on the game as a lynch victim. 

This is something I've been thinking a lot about. I went into this game thinking "I'm not just town but VT, I'm totally expendable, so I'm just gonna say whatever cause I don't care about being lynched. But then when people started voting for me I defaulted to my OMG don't kill me mindset, which I guess is a pretty natural way to feel? Only, that mindset made more people think I was scum than anything else I'd done. So now that I've taken my cooldown time, I think I'm OK with being lynched if that's the way things are going to go.  After all, I already survived a whole game of Mafia and I'm currently playing in another one. All other things equal, I'd rather give the newer players a longer game.

One thing I'll say, being honest, is that I think the thing in this game I'm best at (or at least feel the most confident about) is defending myself, so I tend to jump into that. It's easy for me to pick apart other people's arguments. I did that all the time in high school debate and college philosophy courses and really loved doing it. But I'm just not as good at scumhunting or at constructing a good argument in the first place.  So I play to my strengths and it inevitably makes me look scummy.

Vote: Jotheonah
I'm concurrently looking through J's old posts and keeping up with the thread but I think my vote will go to J for this incredibly premature VT roleclaim.

You really consider VT to be a roleclaim? It's a terrible play for me as mafia, as it removes my option of later claiming an actual role.  As town role, it's an ok claim if it keeps me from getting lynched but a very problematic one if I want to be believed later. As town though? Explain why it's anti-town for a VT to claim VT.

Because then if the Mafia believe you, they can ignore you and have a higher chance to hit a power-role

[jotheonah]

But as the mafia make that decision (about who is most likely to be a power role), they're presented with a whole big WIFOM. They only know for sure if they investigate me, in which case they'd know for sure anyway. I just ... don't think it's that big a deal.

And none of this explains why Axxle thinks it's worthy of a vote, because I can't see even a little bit why it makes sense for the mafia, for the reasons I explained earlier.

Oh look, I'm getting worked up again. Meh.

[Dsell]

As town role, it's an ok claim if it keeps me from getting lynched but a very problematic one if I want to be believed later. As town though? Explain why it's anti-town for a VT to claim VT.

If nothing else it can make the mafia's nightkill more likely to hit a power role.

P-P edit: Ninja'd by O. Oh well. Jo, you have got to reign it in. "Stupid townie" play is largely what has resulted in lynches of town in the other mafia games. 

[jotheonah]

As town role, it's an ok claim if it keeps me from getting lynched but a very problematic one if I want to be believed later. As town though? Explain why it's anti-town for a VT to claim VT.

If nothing else it can make the mafia's nightkill more likely to hit a power role.

P-P edit: Ninja'd by O. Oh well. Jo, you have got to reign it in. "Stupid townie" play is largely what has resulted in lynches of town in the other mafia games. 

In Mafia II, I tend to think SMART town play was the culprit. Or should I say "smart" town play.

[Dsell]

As town role, it's an ok claim if it keeps me from getting lynched but a very problematic one if I want to be believed later. As town though? Explain why it's anti-town for a VT to claim VT.

If nothing else it can make the mafia's nightkill more likely to hit a power role.

P-P edit: Ninja'd by O. Oh well. Jo, you have got to reign it in. "Stupid townie" play is largely what has resulted in lynches of town in the other mafia games. 

In Mafia II, I tend to think SMART town play was the culprit. Or should I say "smart" town play.

I actually meant day 1 lynches, sorry. I wasn't following M II after day 1 enough to be able to comment.

[Glooble]

Alternately, smart "town" play.

[Captain_Frisk]

I do find it interesting that:

A. My vote was largely ignored for a while.
B. DSell was politely defensive.
C. You were then dismissive AND then hedged with a maybe.
D. No-one else has jumped on or expressed any interest.

Contrast this to pops

A. Acts like a jerk.
B. Refuses to defend himself and taunts the town.
C. Bandwagon starts and grows fast, both with votes and suspicions.
D. Calms down as its clear that the frenzy isn't quite enough.

I'm not quite sure who you are addressing here? It doesn't sound like you are addressing me. I'm also not sure what your conclusions are. In case it was to me, I didn't ignore your vote, I responded as soon as I could after catching up.

This was directed to O, who lept to your defense and accused me of crap logic for suspecting someone who's been flying under the radar suspicion wise - and then hedged by saying that well, yeah you had been bandwagoning.

As for conclusion, there's no conclusion.  I just personally find it interesting that it fell flat - ignored - vs. sparking discussion or starting a bandwagon like some of the other votes out there.

Nothing against you specifically, and I don't think that a strong defense to accusations or a single vote at this point is even warranted.  Is that because my vote is stupid?  That's what O is saying - and he may be right.  Is it because i've hit mafia and its better to just let it slide rather than try to get the town worked up? 

Clearly - I can't say for anything for certain... the only piece of information that I am 100% confident of is my role PM.  Maybe I should go check it just in case - like pops.

[O]

and then hedged by saying that well, yeah you had been bandwagoning.

I repeat, "hedged" is deliberate misdirection. If I respond to your points by agreeing with one and disagreeing with another, it's not "hedging".

Lets put it this way: If I first said "yea! Dsell's been bandwagoning a lot! But I don't think your point about hovering around the middle of the post count is valid" (Disclaimer: I would never ever speak like this outside of quotes and/or sarcasm), it seems very much like you would have said that you're glad I agreed with you and that I did bring up a valid point about post count  .

Whether this means you're manipulative or just manipulatable, well...

[popsofctown]

Anyone else who prematurely roleclaims meets my holy wrath.  Joth might meet my holy wrath anyway.  I'm a pretty fundamentalist lpayer and roleclaiming is fundamentally bad.

[O]

Anyone else who prematurely roleclaims meets my holy wrath.  Joth might meet my holy wrath anyway.  I'm a pretty fundamentalist lpayer and roleclaiming is fundamentally bad.

*puts away Jester mask*

[Dsell]

Anyone else who prematurely roleclaims meets my holy wrath.  Joth might meet my holy wrath anyway.  I'm a pretty fundamentalist lpayer and roleclaiming is fundamentally bad.

Pops, do you mean to say that you think he is being a very bad townie or mafia? Or unsure? What is your idea of holy wrath if you think he's a townie, since you advocate only voting for mafia, rather than scum?

I don't ask these questions to be difficult, but so far it has been the best way of getting to the actual meaning of your posts. You can pretty much expect a lot of questions from me after some of your posts.

[Insomniac]

Anyone else who prematurely roleclaims meets my holy wrath.  Joth might meet my holy wrath anyway.  I'm a pretty fundamentalist lpayer and roleclaiming is fundamentally bad.

*puts away Jester mask*

But Volt wouldn't put TWO jester's in this game would he?

[Dsell]

I don't know if there's a better way, I just view all posts and ctrl-f the poster's name.

You need a semicolon there.

This is true; however, I don't see how this is helping your recently stated goal of helping people catch up who are pages behind.

Count the words.

On that note, pops, I am still really baffled by this exchange. Do you have any plans to explain it? Or do you have a really strange sense of humor that persists even when others are serious (a la O)?

[Glooble]

Anyone else who prematurely roleclaims meets my holy wrath.  Joth might meet my holy wrath anyway.  I'm a pretty fundamentalist lpayer and roleclaiming is fundamentally bad.

*puts away Jester mask*

But Volt wouldn't put TWO jester's in this game would he?

I think it would be hilarious to moderate a mafia game and send everyone jester as their role PM. Just to see what would happen with a whole town trying to get themselves lynched.

[popsofctown]

I've been told I have a very dry sense of humor.

RE: Joth : I will happily lynch a claimed VT that has a coin flip chance of being scum D1.  I do think he's townish, but he's not far from even chances for me.
The effect of having a VT in the shooting pool is really devastating for the town.

Also, incidentally joth has a very informative wagon that depends on his flip.

[jotheonah]

I don't wish to debate this, but claiming a non-role does not seem to me on par with claiming a role, for various reasons. VT is what everyone's supposed to assume everyone else is anyway. The fact that I said it means nothing. You have no reason to believe or disbelieve me, nor do the mafia. It is, in my mind, very much like not claiming. In future games, I will avoid it because it clearly irks people. But really, I kinda think it's a nonissue.

I get town reads from both theorel and Glooble, and I don't get a town read from Grujah. The Grujah wagon seems to me to be the most authentic wagon out there. I don't think Grujah is actually online/around, so his lack of a defense is neither suspicious nor non-suspicious. But for now, I'm going to go ahead and

Vote: Grujah

For the record, he was the third suspect in my readthrough anyway, and my suspicion of CF wasn't really doing anything/going anywhere (partly cause I got real distracted by the votes on me, my own meditation on defensiveness and town play, and, oh yeah, meatspace stuff, and didn't have the time/energy to actually pursue it.)