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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest #221: I Am Forever in Your Debt  (Read 1966 times)

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fika monster

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #221: I Am Forever in Your Debt
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2024, 03:40:56 pm »
0

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NoMoreFun

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #221: I Am Forever in Your Debt
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2024, 06:07:12 pm »
+1

Desperado
Action - $3
+2 Cards
While you have any <>, +2 Actions
At the start of your buy phase, you may return this to its pile for +$3. If you did, +<3> at end of turn.

Rules clarification: Unlike Capital, you can't pay off the end of turn debt with any excess $ you have.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2024, 04:23:24 pm by NoMoreFun »
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Holger

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #221: I Am Forever in Your Debt
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2024, 05:41:41 am »
+2

Desperado
Action - $3
+2 Cards
While you have any <>, +2 Actions
At the start of your buy phase, you may return this to its pile for +$3 and +<3>

The +$3 and +<3> cancel each other (you can't use the $ for buying as long as you have debt).
To make the $3 usable, the card should give out the debt later than the $, like Capital does, e.g. during clean-up.
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #221: I Am Forever in Your Debt
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2024, 07:01:10 am »
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No, because Province costs Debt not Coins in tinkerer games.

well, yes, that's why it's possible. The fact that Provinces now cost <8> is what allows you to buy a Province on Turn 4, provided you can pay off the debt from Turn 3 by that point

J410

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #221: I Am Forever in Your Debt
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2024, 07:06:31 am »
+5

No, because Province costs Debt not Coins in tinkerer games.

well, yes, that's why it's possible. The fact that Provinces now cost <8> is what allows you to buy a Province on Turn 4, provided you can pay off the debt from Turn 3 by that point
Tinkerer gains cards that cost coins, not debt, so it can't gain any victory cards with its on-play ability.
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #221: I Am Forever in Your Debt
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2024, 07:41:36 am »
0

No, because Province costs Debt not Coins in tinkerer games.

well, yes, that's why it's possible. The fact that Provinces now cost <8> is what allows you to buy a Province on Turn 4, provided you can pay off the debt from Turn 3 by that point
Tinkerer gains cards that cost coins, not debt, so it can't gain any victory cards with its on-play ability.

ohh, yes, now I get the objection. You're correct of course.

4est

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #221: I Am Forever in Your Debt
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2024, 10:32:45 am »
+2

CONTEST CLOSED

Please check the OP to make sure I have your most updated submission.

I'll have commentary and results posted in the next day or two.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #221: I Am Forever in Your Debt
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2024, 04:24:06 pm »
+2

Desperado
Action - $3
+2 Cards
While you have any <>, +2 Actions
At the start of your buy phase, you may return this to its pile for +$3 and +<3>

The +$3 and +<3> cancel each other (you can't use the $ for buying as long as you have debt).
To make the $3 usable, the card should give out the debt later than the $, like Capital does, e.g. during clean-up.

I fixed it, but for transparency this happened after the contest was closed.
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4est

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #221: I Am Forever in Your Debt
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2024, 04:46:21 pm »
+1

All good, I'll take these changes into account.
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4est

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #221: I Am Forever in Your Debt
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2024, 02:31:35 pm »
+5

Appreciate the patience, I'm about 2/3 of the way through the card write-ups and will get these posted tonight or tomorrow!
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4est

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #221: I Am Forever in Your Debt
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2024, 10:28:57 pm »
+3

WDC #221: I Am Forever in Your Debt

Commentary & Results

Thanks everyone for your patience, and I appreciate all the submissions! Let's get to it, OPs are linked, shortlisted entries are bolded.



Impoverished Village by JW
A Village that lets you take Debt for extra cards. The price point for +2 Cards compares with Expedition, and the limit helps prevent spamming these to draw your deck on boards where you don't need to buy cards. An elegant entry and a use for Debt we haven't seen on an official card yet.

Central Bank by grep
A Debt Project that makes your VP cards Coppers at the cost of giving you 1%. Playing VP cards feels overly complicated when it could just be discard at the start of your Buy phase for $1 each. The bigger issue is the penalty which I think is way too steep. 1% per turn may not seem like much but it's basically like getting Cutpursed every turn, and unless you have more than one VP card to play, it doesn't make up for the every turn cost. In most games you trash your Estates, making this worthless, and by the endgame, adding a few extra Coppers to your deck hardly feels worth the trouble. 

Stock Exchange by faust
Another Project, sort of an Expedition+ that you can potentially trigger on multiple turns if you stay in Debt or go back into Debt. Without other ways to take Debt, this Project is eventually going to "run out" and getting more than one or possibly two turns out of it will be rare. With other Debt sources, this gets much more interesting, a mini game of sorts where you actively try to end turns in Debt. While I wish the latter was more the norm, I think the former, "one-shot" vibe will be more common. 

Mad Scientist by BryGuy
I like the idea of a Debt-Potion cost! It remedies one of the core downsides of Potion cards: not drawing your Potion with enough money in hand to buy the card you want (looking at you, Familiar). The issue here though is that Pawns, where you choose 2 from a set of 4 options, REALLY want those 4 options to be simple, easy to grok and remember. Mad Scientists options by themselves aren't complex, but layering on the standard effect you always get with some options having conditional things and some just giving the bonus, it makes it very hard to just glance at the card and know what it can actually do for you. The wording in some places is also a bit strange (trash a Hand card should be trash a card from your hand).

Gangster and Kingpin by HorazVitae
There's a lot going on with this one, trying to wrap my head around it. So it's a Night Workshop that can gain better cards to hand if you trigger its Reaction. I've always thought there's some interesting design space for Night Reactions where the effect gets more interesting during other phases. The Debt cost works here by preventing you from gaining other Gangsters. So far, so good. What I don't really get is Kingpin. Outside of potentially the early game, it's hard to envision a scenario where the start of turn effect of Kingpin ever really triggers (especially in multi-player). The Cursing means you can't ignore Gangster, and the chances of getting Kingpin and then not having another player play it feel really low, essentially making it's ability sort of a factor. The Debt thing also feels a little convoluted. I would recommend figuring out a different Artifact or honestly just dropping it altogether, the Debt cost Night-Reaction seems viable as is. 

Expansive by grrgrrgrr
I actually slightly prefer the other Trait you shared, turning the selected card into a Debt card is a super simple but compelling idea. Expansive is cool too, the card costs extra Debt and gains a Training sort of ability. Like all Traits, the utility is highly dependent on the selected card, but I like this idea a lot and it gives me Cursed vibes, where it makes the card stronger but at a cost. Good one!

Industrialist by infangthief
Another Night card, with a Pawn like choice of Coffers, Villagers, or Horses. The bottom grants choices already, so I think eliminating the choice at the top (and just going with a flat bonus) would be a bit cleaner. The Debt Workshop thing is weird; it's sort of like just buying a card during your Night phase (that you have to pay for later), but it gets better if you already have Debt or play in multiples. Playing the first one let's you pay $3 for a $3 but a second one gains a $6 for just $3 more. 

Incomplete Cathedral by valb_7k
Another Debt Project. So it's basically Cathedral, a mandatory trash every turn, except you can also Remodel stuff if you want. An easy autobuy on just about every board. A Debt Remodel is interesting design space to explore but this is simply too powerful. 

Labor and Slum by fika monster
A Smithy that comes with a pile of Taskmaster variants. You can chain them which is nice, though the mandatory gain is a bit rough, really making you think twice about going for Labours. You really don't want to flood your deck with Ruined Villages. The Debt option let's you get the +Actions next turn and keep the card out of your deck. Paying $1 every turn for an Action doesn't feel great? The flavor is okay, but I would consider making the gain optional and increasing the cost to $5. 

Archduke by segura
Cantrip Duchy gainer is something I've tried before and tested, and it's fun times--gaining Duchies nonterminally seems powerful, but it fattens your deck quicker than you realize. The Debt cost seems fair (I had priced a similar card without the on-gain at $6 which worked well). The on-gain is interesting, you Haunted Woods yourself which without virtual $, makes it challenging to pay off Debt this turn. I can't decide if I like this or not. It's a fine on-gain on its own and can create some interesting decisions, though I feel like it stomps on the core conceit of Debt--you get to pay for part of the card now and part of it later. Overall, I think it's a well designed card, though I wonder if a different ongain that interacts with the top effect (e.g. Marshland's on-gain) might work better.

Usurer by emtzalex
Overpay using Debt is a neat idea, sort of a twist on Stonemason where you don't need the cash up front, however not including a non-Victory card clause is terrifying. Consider removing Province gaining and then you can also likely keep to 1 Debt per $ on the overpay. Trashing anything other than Copper seems unlikely? Perhaps a simpler Moneylender variant would work here. 

Tinkerer by LTaco
A gain to hand Workshop that only works if you have Debt. Normally, you don't want to keep Debt across turns, but you're encouraged to do so here. The in games using this is the fascinating part and makes buying VP cards a way to help fuel your Tinkerers to gain other cards. My one concern is that buying out Debt Provinces gets too easy (having the last one basically be free is a problem), but it's something worth testing! It's a really creative idea and an interesting use of Debt that I've not seen before.

Royal Engineer by Udzu
An Event that basically let's you borrow to gain $5s, with an extra $1 in interest. Super simple and straightforward, though I would suggest adding a non-Victory clause. I worry a bit if 1% is too generous, perhaps 2% is a better base cost. Really solid entry though. 

Desperado by NoMoreFun
A Moat that becomes a Lost City if you have Debt. Like some of the other submissions that reward having Debt, this one will be really hard to activate without other Debt cards, since the only way to get Debt from this is to use it as a one-shot. Consider giving it a Debt cost to encourage keeping some Debt to activate after buying it. The one-shot is interesting, though losing the card and taking Debt seems like a pretty steep penalty. 



Honorable Mentions: Impoverished Village by JW, Expansive by grrgrrgrr, Archduke by segura

Runner Up: Royal Engineer by Uzdu

WINNER: Tinkerer by LTaco


Congrats to LTaco and thanks everyone for participating!
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #221: I Am Forever in Your Debt
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2024, 03:20:54 am »
+5

Without virtual Coins? You play Treasure first and then buy a Debt-costed card (I could as well have used an on-buy trigger)! The point of it all is to make it harder to go for Archduke once you already have green in your deck.
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infangthief

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #221: I Am Forever in Your Debt
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2024, 03:47:50 am »
+1

Nice judging 4est and thanks for the feedback.

Quote
The bottom grants choices already, so I think eliminating the choice at the top (and just going with a flat bonus) would be a bit cleaner.
Yes!
I wanted a bonus that helped with deck control (because once you've started playing Industrialists it's awful if you get a turn in which you don't draw them).
Then yesterday I realised that the uncomplicated deck control bonus is "You may trash a card from your hand". Not exactly a flat bonus, but often a no-brainer to clear out junk. It also helps you get rid of your other Industrialists once you judge it's time to come out of debt and start greening.

So, after the event:
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4est

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #221: I Am Forever in Your Debt
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2024, 07:29:57 am »
0

Without virtual Coins? You play Treasure first and then buy a Debt-costed card (I could as well have used an on-buy trigger)! The point of it all is to make it harder to go for Archduke once you already have green in your deck.

Whoops, yes you are correct! I was forgetting when the top decking would trigger. I guess what I'd add then is that my games testing a cantrip Duchy gainer, you rarely end up getting more than two anyway so the penalty may not really come up. Good design though and I stand by the rankings.
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LTaco

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #221: I Am Forever in Your Debt
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2024, 06:27:31 pm »
0

Thank you for hosting this contest and for the the comments.
The new contest is now open.
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