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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village  (Read 4331 times)

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AJL828

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Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« on: April 25, 2023, 04:34:12 pm »
+2

Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village

Dominion has quite a lot of $4 Villages. Why is that anyways?

It mostly boils down to the fact that the original Village is actually a pretty decent card, and that the difference between $3 and $4 isn't a lot in many cases. Villages are essential to make engines run well, so oftentimes you'd be happy paying $4 for one.
This means that $4 Villages fit very comfortably into a mold: take the standard Village and give it a slight extra bonus. Even if that bonus isn't always utilized, the fact that it's a $4 Village will still make it useful quite often.

That brings us to the contest for this week.

Design me a Village that does not cost $4.

A couple other points about exactly what I'm looking for:
- Your card should provide +2 Actions or more without any real difficulty. See the Villages with no restrictions section on the Dominion Strategy Wiki for a list of examples.
- This means no Throne Room variants (as normal Throne Room already costs $4, that would be a bit too easy) or cards that need some condition to be fulfilled (for instance, Ironmonger, Herald, or Conclave).

I'll close this contest at 8 PM EST on May 2, and until then I'll keep an eye on the submissions to let you know if something doesn't qualify (and I'll try to be lenient about that).

Thanks Gubump for putting this suggestion in the suggestions thread. :)
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Augie279

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2023, 04:48:40 pm »
+2



A card that gives +3 Cards, +2 Actions!... Maybe. Kinda. Not really.

<Clarifications: You can only discard revealed Victory cards. All cards revealed and not discarded, Victory or otherwise, are shuffled back in.>
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2023, 05:14:04 pm »
+2

Granary
$5 - Action
+1 Card and +2 Actions
You may discard up to two cards, revealed. For each Action or Gold discarded, +2 Cards.

Notes: You can use your Actions or Gold to fuel your draw, but (as with "Shy" trait cards) it's not clear that you always want to. I like that it lets you use Gold as way to fuel your draw, but with lower stakes about not finding a Gold than, say, Encampment.
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BryGuy

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2023, 05:16:41 pm »
+2

Quote
Town Crazy
$5 Action
+2 Actions,
Choose one: discard a card for +2 Cards; or discard two same named cards, not costing $0, to gain a Madman.
:) The first choice while similar to Village allows some filtering. The second choice offers an alternate path to Madman.

xyz123

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2023, 06:37:06 pm »
+5

Gentrified Village
Treasure-Duration
$5

$1
+1 Coffer
_______________________________________
At the start of your next turn +2 Actions
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majiponi

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2023, 07:58:02 pm »
+5

Poor Village
cost $3 - Action
+2 Actions
Reveal your hand.  If you don't have any Trasures, +2 Cards.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2023, 08:51:47 pm »
+5

Outskirts
Action - $2
+1 Card
+2 Actions
_______
When you gain this, trash it if you have an Outskirts in play
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2023, 09:18:49 pm »
+2


At the Thrifty Village, they strive to live without waste. They feel happy when they do exactly enough work.
Unfortunately it doesn't draw, but it can swap a card between your hand and discard pile, which makes it more realistic to fulfill its condition. It still won't always be possible though.
Also I guess they really like Tunnels at the Thrifty Village, for some reason?  ;)

A wording note: I wanted to say "If you revealed exactly 2 Action cards, +$2" but I thought that might sound like if you revealed 2 Actions and a Treasure that you wouldn't meet the condition, which wasn't what I wanted.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2023, 09:24:11 pm »
+8



Ever wish your Village came with a Remake stapled to it? Wish granted.

Nice for thinning Coppers and upgrading Estates into $3s, but you can also do fancy things with it in the mid-game. And be careful: the on-gain is mandatory.

*Edit: Added restriction on Remaking copies of itself to prevent Fortress shenanigans (thanks JW for pointing that out!).
« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 09:57:40 pm by 4est »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2023, 04:36:14 am »
+3


Quote
Pirate's Lair - $2
Action

+1 Card
+2 Actions

Gain a non-Victory card costing exactly $1 per card you've gained this turn.
As a neat little unintended flavor tie-in, this combos with Pirate.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 04:42:43 am by faust »
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fika monster

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2023, 04:58:19 am »
+3

A mixture of Port and Lost city

v2

Quote
Welcoming Village , $3 Action

+1 Card, +2 Villagers
-
When you gain this during your turn, you get +1 Buy, +2 Villagers, and all other players get a copy of Welcoming Village.

The pile has 12 16 Cards in it, since its very attractive and will probably run out fast.

I don't think there has been a card that is put into OTHER PLAYERS hands, and in a good way: and so i wanted to play with that. Since its essentially a +1 Card effect, i wanted to make it feel good for the giving player, so therefore gaining it during your turn would give you a village effect.
This should be the first kind of card that GIVES other players a genuilly good card. Games with this should be plentiful with actions and draw, becoming unusual and different, maybe too quick.

The card shouldnt have a infinite loop that runs out immideatly with the "gain during your turn" clause: it would be very awkward if giving this card away once would immideatly empty its pile.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 08:02:30 am by fika monster »
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2023, 05:50:01 am »
+1

A mixture of Port and Lost city


Quote
Welcoming Village , $3 Action

+1 Card, +2 Villagers
-
When you gain this during your turn, you get +2 Villagers, and all other players get a copy of Welcoming Village to their hand.

The pile has 16 Cards in it, since its very attractive and will probably run out fast.

I don't think there has been a card that is put into OTHER PLAYERS hands, and in a good way: and so i wanted to play with that. Since its essentially a +1 Card effect, i wanted to make it feel good for the giving player, so therefore gaining it during your turn would give you a village effect. Games with this should be plentiful with actions and draw, becoming unusual and different.

The card shouldnt have a infinite loop that runs out immideatly with the "gain during your turn" clause: it would be very awkward if giving this card away once would immideatly empty its pile.
I feel like maybe you want this pile to have 12 cards, since that is divisible by 2,3 and 4. With 16 cards, it means that in a 3-player setting the last Welcoming Village can be gained without giving copies to others.

Overall, I'm not sure I would want to get this, the benefit to other players is just too big, and usually they will be able to benefit before me (if this is bought, I can only make use of the Villagers the turn after, but my opponents can immediately play their WV). I would at least get rid of the gaining to hand to make it a bit more attractive.
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fika monster

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2023, 08:03:17 am »
0

A mixture of Port and Lost city

v2

Quote
Welcoming Village , $3 Action

+1 Card, +2 Villagers
-
When you gain this during your turn, you get +1 Buy, +2 Villagers, and all other players get a copy of Welcoming Village.

The pile has 12 16 Cards in it, since its very attractive and will probably run out fast.

I don't think there has been a card that is put into OTHER PLAYERS hands, and in a good way: and so i wanted to play with that. Since its essentially a +1 Card effect, i wanted to make it feel good for the giving player, so therefore gaining it during your turn would give you a village effect.
This should be the first kind of card that GIVES other players a genuilly good card. Games with this should be plentiful with actions and draw, becoming unusual and different, maybe too quick.

The card shouldnt have a infinite loop that runs out immideatly with the "gain during your turn" clause: it would be very awkward if giving this card away once would immideatly empty its pile.

Updated per suggestion: added +1 Buy when you buy it, but if you buy this you will give a lot of free villages to other players
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2023, 09:33:50 am »
+2

Moo.



To follow in last week's footsteps, this is also a pile of 20 cards.

You can always milk your many Cows for a nice bucket of mil- I mean Silvers.


Edit: This is a conditional village, and thus, it doesn't fit the guidelines of this week's contest. Withdrawn.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 01:20:09 pm by X-tra »
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majiponi

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2023, 09:52:47 am »
0

Moo.



To follow in last week's footsteps, this is also a pile of 20 cards.

You can always milk your many Cows for a nice bucket of mil- I mean Silvers.

It does not always give us +2 Actions.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2023, 10:26:08 am »
0

Oops, is this a strike against it? In my experience, it's not too difficult to get the village. But if the judge thinks that it's too unorthodox, I will withdraw it and submit something else.
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Gubump

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2023, 10:36:24 am »
0

The prompt doesn't say that being a Village has to be unconditional.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2023, 10:44:43 am »
+2

The prompt doesn't say that being a Village has to be unconditional.
I think it does:
A couple other points about exactly what I'm looking for:
- Your card should provide +2 Actions or more without any real difficulty. See the Villages with no restrictions section on the Dominion Strategy Wiki for a list of examples.
- This means no [...] cards that need some condition to be fulfilled (for instance, Ironmonger, Herald, or Conclave).
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AJL828

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2023, 12:24:25 pm »
+1

Oops, is this a strike against it? In my experience, it's not too difficult to get the village. But if the judge thinks that it's too unorthodox, I will withdraw it and submit something else.
Yeah, needing to collide it with a Silver would count as fulfilling an extra condition in my opinion. Sorry :/
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2023, 12:28:55 pm »
+2



Village Well - Action
+2 Actions
+1 Coffer
You may play an Heirloom from your hand to gain +1%.

Lucky Copper - Treasure - Heirloom
$1
Name a card. Reveal the top card of your deck. If it's the named card, put it into your hand.

Quote
With this week's contest being about one of my favorite mechanics, villages, I wanted to make a card that combined my favorites together. I wanted to make a bit of an homage to Wishing Well while using an heirloom and additionally get to use some nice tactile tokens. The heirloom for Village Well allows for some variation with the starts while also allowing the possibility of continuing that action chain if you set up your deck well. I thought it would also be interesting to have Village Well in a Kingdom with other heirlooms to see how that would play out.
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anordinaryman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2023, 01:39:59 pm »
0



Quote
Ransacked Village | Action | $2
+1 Card
+2 Actions
When you gain a Victory card, trash this.
-
When you gain this from the supply, you may gain a non-Victory card from the trash.
There are 16 copies of Ransacked Village in the Supply

A village for $2 with no vanilla downside! Wow, let's get a bunch! Careful though, gaining land (victory cards) cause all of your villages to get ransacked and go away. Just when you got your engine going it falls on its face with a single victory card. There are of course ways around this -- you can build a more stable engine by buying a victory card and then buying a few ransacked villages to get more back each turn. There's 16 in supply to make this a little more viable, Of course eventually this plan fails when the supply runs out. And maybe you just need some of these villages temporarily, once they are ransacked maybe you have a more expensive City or Bazaar to flee to instead. Lastly, you can try to do a mega turn, who cares if your villages are ransacked if you have plenty of other land and the game ends?

Then there's those of you who will spot the on gain as a fun combo with remodel/trash for benefit variants.

I'm open to suggestions -- I considered a mandatory "gain an Action card from the Trash" to simplify it. a mandatory "gain a non-Victory card from the trash" seems to bad as what do you do with those Coppers? I like the cost at $2 -- as a village it is strictly worse than the original $3 Village, and there's no harm in this cheaper cost because most of the time I prefer Village over this, unless I'm doing the fun trash-gain combo which doesn't apply until mid-game anyway. I could be convinced to cost it $3 though, but I think $2 is better. "Gain from the supply" prevents a single purchase from getting all from the trash, which made it too easy to do the gradual engine approach.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2023, 02:51:04 pm »
0

The prompt doesn't say that being a Village has to be unconditional.
I think it does:
A couple other points about exactly what I'm looking for:
- Your card should provide +2 Actions or more without any real difficulty. See the Villages with no restrictions section on the Dominion Strategy Wiki for a list of examples.
- This means no [...] cards that need some condition to be fulfilled (for instance, Ironmonger, Herald, or Conclave).

I stand corrected.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2023, 02:53:13 pm »
+1



This needs to say "when you gain a Victory card this turn, trash this."
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2023, 03:30:18 pm »
0



Village Well - Action
+2 Actions
+1 Coffer
You may play an Heirloom from your hand to gain +1%.

Lucky Copper - Treasure - Heirloom
$1
Name a card. Reveal the top card of your deck. If it's the named card, put it into your hand.

Quote
With this week's contest being about one of my favorite mechanics, villages, I wanted to make a card that combined my favorites together. I wanted to make a bit of an homage to Wishing Well while using an heirloom and additionally get to use some nice tactile tokens. The heirloom for Village Well allows for some variation with the starts while also allowing the possibility of continuing that action chain if you set up your deck well. I thought it would also be interesting to have Village Well in a Kingdom with other heirlooms to see how that would play out.

I like the card and the heirloom, but why not just make the village have "play a treasure from your hand" and ditch the Vp tokens? I feel that the heirloom play is too specific.

Alternatively, if you want to keep the VP aspect, you could have it be "If all card you have in play are unique". That way you could have a fun minigame with it that requires a bit more then just finding the heirloom in the end.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2023, 03:33:58 pm by fika monster »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2023, 05:33:29 pm »
+2

Village Well/Lucky Copper looks cool but I don't think it would play well. Both cards are super luck dependent, especially the heirloom. If you draw it on T1, you probably have to name copper, then getting it right means +1$ and your next 4 cards all miss the shuffle, so you get to play whatever you bought super fast (and that may be a 5$). If one person gets this and the other reveals an estate,  the game is almost over.

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2023, 05:45:02 pm »
+1

Village Well/Lucky Copper looks cool but I don't think it would play well. Both cards are super luck dependent, especially the heirloom. If you draw it on T1, you probably have to name copper, then getting it right means +1$ and your next 4 cards all miss the shuffle, so you get to play whatever you bought super fast (and that may be a 5$). If one person gets this and the other reveals an estate,  the game is almost over.
We know from Doctor that shuffling after T1 is not as great as it first seems. Actually, more often than not, it outright sucks.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2023, 12:02:56 am »
+2


Quote
Hotel Pub
$5 - Action
+2 Cards
+2 Actions.
You may discard a treasure. If you didn't, gain a Copper on top of your deck.

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2023, 05:24:38 am »
+4

Laidback Life $3
Now and at the start of your next 2 turns:
+1 Action
+1$

Maybe very simple, but sometimes simple is all you need.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2023, 07:56:09 am »
0


Quote
Distant Village
$5 Action
+1 Card
+1 Buy
Choose one: +1 Card;
or +2 Actions.
-
When you gain this, draw an extra card for your next hand per unused Action you have (Action, not Action card).
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2023, 10:19:00 am »
+3



I was just thinking about how busted gaining one of these is with a Fortress in hand (gain the entire rest of the pile, plus that many other $5 cost cards). 2e Farmland can only gain non-Farmlands as a way to avoid similar (but lesser) issues, while 1e Farmland only triggered on buy (not gain). A third potential solution is to not trigger its Remake ability if it was gained with itself. 
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2023, 10:50:16 am »
+2

Dang, yep, totally forgot about Fortress whoops. I'll add a restriction to prevent gaining more Restored Villages. Sad, but yeah can't have autopiling like that.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2023, 01:21:33 pm »
+3

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2023, 03:29:23 pm »
+2

My Submission:




Quote
Floating Village ē $2 ē Action - Duration
+1 Card
You may discard a card for +2 Actions. If
you discarded an Action card, then at the
start of your next turn, repeat this ability.


My submission is Floating Village. Generally, it'll be a village that sifts (i.e. draws a card than discards), rather than draws. However, if you end up with no more Action cards, you can opt out of the discarding (making it terminal). On the other hand, if you have too many Action cards (or junk like Ruins, or cards with on-discard reactions like Trail and Village Green), you can discard one of them to (effectively) replay Floating Village the following turn.

I think this is pretty balanced at $2. The obvious comparison is Hamlet, which would be strictly better without FV's Duration ability. As strong as that is, using it will be uncommon/challenging enough that it doesn't make this too powerful.

FAQ
When it says "...repeat this ability" it means all of the card's text: (a) the +1 Card; (b) the option to discard for +2 Actions; and (c) the possibility of repeating all that if you discard an Action. If you discard an Action card every turn, FV will stay in play and keep repeating its ability. (I borrowed the syntax from Taskmaster).
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2023, 05:27:18 pm »
+3



Quote
Watchful Village - $3
Night - Duration
Now and at the start of your next turn, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the last one back onto your deck.
Until then, each player starts their next turn with 2 Actions.

A double Lookout that acts as a Village for each player on their next turn. The village effect is delayed and does not compound with itself, so multiple Watchful Villages in play will only ever start players with 2 Actions on their next turn. I am not sure if I have the wording for the second half correct. Additionally, I am not sure if providing other players with a Village effect counterbalances the double Lookout. Feedback is welcome.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2023, 06:37:31 pm »
+8

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2023, 05:51:45 am »
0



One thing I notice is that you can nuke your opponent's hand with this. Say you draw Colony*5. I play swindler and hit your Duchy, giving you a Restored Village. 23 point swing! And even in less implausible circumstances, it can be harsh.

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2023, 09:30:16 am »
+2



One thing I notice is that you can nuke your opponent's hand with this. Say you draw Colony*5. I play swindler and hit your Duchy, giving you a Restored Village. 23 point swing! And even in less implausible circumstances, it can be harsh.

add "during your turn" so it doesnt trigger with swindlers and such?
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2023, 01:20:43 pm »
+2

New submission (Cow withdrawn).

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2023, 01:53:09 pm »
+2

^ this & any workshop that can gain itself can gain the entire pile in one turn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2023, 02:51:05 pm »
0

New submission (Cow withdrawn).



I this needs to have a "set this aside", or something like "discard this" so this doesnt enable autopiles. But i like the card.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2023, 03:01:44 pm »
+1

New submission (Cow withdrawn).



I this needs to have a "set this aside", or something like "discard this" so this doesnt enable autopiles. But i like the card.

Or he could make it so it only works on Actions you don't have any copies of in play.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2023, 07:26:28 pm »
0

Yep good call guys. Will fix it tomorrow.
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nyxfulloftricks

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2023, 09:48:11 pm »
0



Quote


I like the card and the heirloom, but why not just make the village have "play a treasure from your hand" and ditch the Vp tokens? I feel that the heirloom play is too specific.

Alternatively, if you want to keep the VP aspect, you could have it be "If all card you have in play are unique". That way you could have a fun minigame with it that requires a bit more then just finding the heirloom in the end.


I really wanted to have vp chits as an option and while your suggestion is a nice idea, it takes the card away from the $3 cost village I wanted and pushes it more to $4 or $5.
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Lackar

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2023, 10:17:52 pm »
+1

Exiled Village
$5
Action - Duration
+2 Actions

At the start of your next turn.
+1 Card
You may Exile a card from your hand.
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anordinaryman

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2023, 10:51:03 pm »
+1

version 2, thanks Gubump for the this turn phrasing

Quote
Ransacked Village | Action | $2
+1 Card
+2 Actions
When you gain a Victory card this turn, trash this.
-
When you gain this from the supply, you may gain a non-Victory card from the trash.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2023, 11:40:36 pm »
+1

Crafty Village
$5 Action
+2 Actions
Gain a card costing up to $4
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2023, 04:19:53 pm »
+7




Updated because of feedback from the Discord.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2023, 06:21:28 pm by Gubump »
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Violet CLM

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #47 on: May 01, 2023, 04:23:18 am »
+3

Tourist Trap
$3 Action

+5 Actions
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #48 on: May 01, 2023, 07:49:23 am »
+1


Took inspiration from hireling
After comments i fixed it
« Last Edit: May 01, 2023, 12:38:47 pm by RovingBear »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2023, 10:09:08 am »
+2


Took inspiration from hireling, think its balanced but may be slightly cheap.

"Slightly cheap?" This would already be a reasonable even without also having Barracks added on.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2023, 11:08:33 am »
+4

Prospector
Action - $3
Look at the top two cards of your deck. Choose one: put them into your hand, or discard them for +2 Actions
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #51 on: May 01, 2023, 02:11:19 pm »
0

Prospector
Action - $3
Look at the top two cards of your deck. Choose one: put them into your hand, or discard them for +2 Actions


feels like against the spirit of the contest? since you're pretty unhappy taking 2 Actions here.

- Your card should provide +2 Actions or more without any real difficulty. See the Villages with no restrictions section on the Dominion Strategy Wiki for a list of examples.
- This means no Throne Room variants (as normal Throne Room already costs $4, that would be a bit too easy) or cards that need some condition to be fulfilled (for instance, Ironmonger, Herald, or Conclave).

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #52 on: May 01, 2023, 06:50:20 pm »
+2


Quote
Penny Pincher
Action - Liason
+2 Actions
+2 Buys
+2 Favor
I notice not many cards give multiple favor in official dominion so I thought might be nice to have cheap card do that. I went rather simple as the complexity will mostly come for the Ally. If the ally sucks well at least this card gives players a cheap but bad +2 Actions effect or +Buy effect as most engine decks really needed both.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2023, 04:11:18 am »
+3


Quote
Penny Pincher
Action - Liason
+2 Actions
+2 Buys
+2 Favor
I notice not many cards give multiple favor in official dominion so I thought might be nice to have cheap card do that. I went rather simple as the complexity will mostly come for the Ally. If the ally sucks well at least this card gives players a cheap but bad +2 Actions effect or +Buy effect as most engine decks really needed both.
This is just way too strong. Favors are generally good enough that a card doing nothing but terminally gaining +2 Favors would probably be fine at $2. Just some combinations with Allies for Penny Pincher (PP) would be:
Crafter's Guild: PP becomes a Village Workshop (though limited to 1 gain per turn, still extremely powerful).
Island Folk: If you can play just 2 PPs reliably, you get an extra turn each round.
Circle of Witches: PP is a nonterminal 2/3-Curser.
Fellowship of Scribes: Basically turns PP into a Village with 2 Buys attached.
Plateau Shepherds: Every PP is now also worth 2 VP.

An obvious comparison is Bauble, which effectively just gives +1 for each of the +2s that PP gives (with a bit more flexibility, but still).
« Last Edit: May 02, 2023, 04:18:35 am by faust »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2023, 04:18:05 am »
+1


Quote
Penny Pincher
Action - Liason
+2 Actions
+2 Buys
+2 Favor
I notice not many cards give multiple favor in official dominion so I thought might be nice to have cheap card do that. I went rather simple as the complexity will mostly come for the Ally. If the ally sucks well at least this card gives players a cheap but bad +2 Actions effect or +Buy effect as most engine decks really needed both.

I think it should cost 3 or 4. Maybe add an alternate way to buy or gain? like it could cost 5$, but have "You may spend 1 favor to reduce this cost by 2, any amount of times"
That way you could open this at 3 or 4, but with the cost of spending favores which might be very bad in kingdoms with strong allys.

. too strong for 2 and as faust say, self synergizes too easily with plateu shepherd
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2023, 07:09:11 am »
0


Quote
New Town
$1* Action

+1 Action per $1 this costs.
----
This costs $1 more per Action card in play (anywhere).

How many Actions will you need? It pays to plan ahead.
New Towns are also great trash-for-benefit fodder, if you can gain them at the right time.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2023, 08:41:41 am »
+1

^ may be a bit too easy to make provinces with this, since having a bunch of Action cards in play is pretty common. Stonemason one and whoop, 2 provinces.

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2023, 11:25:55 am »
0

This is interesting, but how do you envision tracking the cost of each one? Do i use a grease pencil on each card as i buy them? And erase after each game?


Quote
New Town
$1* Action

+1 Action per $1 this costs.
----
This costs $1 more per Action card in play (anywhere).

How many Actions will you need? It pays to plan ahead.
New Towns are also great trash-for-benefit fodder, if you can gain them at the right time.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2023, 11:29:49 am by BryGuy »
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2023, 12:31:55 pm »
0

This is interesting, but how do you envision tracking the cost of each one? Do i use a grease pencil on each card as i buy them? And erase after each game?


Quote
New Town
$1* Action

+1 Action per $1 this costs.
----
This costs $1 more per Action card in play (anywhere).

How many Actions will you need? It pays to plan ahead.
New Towns are also great trash-for-benefit fodder, if you can gain them at the right time.
Huh? You simply count the Actions in play.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2023, 03:53:24 pm »
+2


Quote
Penny Pincher
Action - Liason
+2 Actions
+2 Buys
+2 Favor
I notice not many cards give multiple favor in official dominion so I thought might be nice to have cheap card do that. I went rather simple as the complexity will mostly come for the Ally. If the ally sucks well at least this card gives players a cheap but bad +2 Actions effect or +Buy effect as most engine decks really needed both.
This is just way too strong. Favors are generally good enough that a card doing nothing but terminally gaining +2 Favors would probably be fine at $2. Just some combinations with Allies for Penny Pincher (PP) would be:
Crafter's Guild: PP becomes a Village Workshop (though limited to 1 gain per turn, still extremely powerful).
Island Folk: If you can play just 2 PPs reliably, you get an extra turn each round.
Circle of Witches: PP is a nonterminal 2/3-Curser.
Fellowship of Scribes: Basically turns PP into a Village with 2 Buys attached.
Plateau Shepherds: Every PP is now also worth 2 VP.

An obvious comparison is Bauble, which effectively just gives +1 for each of the +2s that PP gives (with a bit more flexibility, but still).

These is kind of posts that ""show"" how strong/overpowered new cards are is one of the few comments you see on these forms. They all seem to be patterned after the a kingdom has X or Y this card would be too strong or comparing the card to many official cards that share DNA. Much of the ""gameplay"" of dominion is recognizing these power cases and if the board has enough support for the interaction without giving up other strong opportunities. So I wanted to go more into detail and compare PP to many other Dominion effects. Some combo are just strait too much such as autopileing, or infinite combos, or effects that generate mass value for too cheap. I don't believe PP has any of those issues assuming only using official Dominion cards.

The flat power level of +2 Actions with no +$ or +Cards  is pretty low as the Way of the Ox shows. The +2 Buys was added because to me PP still felt far too narrow to purchase this card if the Ally is middle power level and there was already another source of +Actions in the kingdom. But if the power level is too high I am willing to cut the +2 Buys as they are les core to PP's identify. The reason I did +2 vs +1 was it looked pretty mentally flows better with 2,2, vs 2,1,2 and +Buys to fall off in usefulness past the first unless Bridge effects are in the kingdom which typically break any decent card.

By the very nature of a Liaison its power level is highly dependent on the ally. Each of these ""break"" cases seems strong but not as centralizing as it first appears as many core official cards do better in similar situations already. Your statement that a terminally +2 Favor would be strong enough to see play feels silly to me. It would only see play on boards with plentiful +Actions from other sources and only if is is paired with the most strong Allies. Even then there are probably much better things players could be doing on that board. Now to focusing on the individual mentioned ""break"" cases.

Plateau Shepherds: Every PP is now also worth 2 VP.
If a board had a the basic village (+1 Card +2 Actions) would a player rather have more deck velocity with the +1 Card or flat 2VP? I am leaning toward early game the +1 Card as building as strong typically outdoes flat VP. If somebody had the $5$2 split then yes PP feels free and might lead to some feels bad, but so does most $5$2 split differences on like 30%+ boards. Now, in the mid to late game PP does provide some interesting options for amassing alt VP as the PP are worth 2VP but also Estates (which are easier to get with +2 Buys) can be worth 3VP. Gaining a PP card too late can easily lead to missing out on play it for favor meaning it is not worth 2VP and the more low velocity cards like PP and Estates players add to there deck the more often that will happen; which is common in alt VP strategies. This play pattern is very similar to distant lands, a bit easier as future plays of PP can prepay for late $2s, but also PP does self trash and has to remain in decks increase player's deck size while still providing very little value to players +$ or +cards engines. Feels like great deck to try out but not too dominate.

Fellowship of Scribes: Basically turns PP into a Village with 2 Buys attached. Now with this ally PP is very strong no doubt about that. PP is even more powerful as some decks PP becomes a Lost City with +2 favor can becoming +2 Cards if the hand is played right. But PP does get a bit clunky vs the official card listed as if a player gets a hand of 6 cards or above PP does a lot less. If PP is the only source source of draw they are limit to a 5 card hand with limits trashing opportunities and mega turn. This would be pretty common if VP card can't be trashed, Junkers or the payload in the kingdom are Treasure cards. Also if PP is paired with a more traditional draw effect the ability to get under 5 card can limit PP's ability to mimic Official Village or Lost City. A similar ally is League of Shopkeepers        with less of a hand management minigame it provides a lot value to the weak core of PP. Oddly enough though the +1 Action +1 Buy from the upgraded ally is much less relevant PP already does that. So not sure if scaling down the Flavor fixes this much vs just being decent. Also much like Merchant Camp the lack of +cards does make it much weaker then Market effects.

Circle of Witches: PP is a nonterminal 2/3-Curser. As I have learning in my experiences with Native Village the +1/2 Card +2 Actions tends to not work out as well as +1 Card + 2 Actions bit quite a huge margin. Some of the difference I suppose comes from the 1st play is doing basically nothing delaying the power spike by quite a bit. Other reasons is by doubling down on a faction effect much like journey token card Player maybe be trying to force a card vs play the reliable constant effects in the kingdom. This is doubly so when the combo faction effect miss shuffle and super delay the power spikes. So to me the 2/3 Curser seems slow enough to be nonterminal and not generate too many issues unless there is no trash and/or no shifting. Which in that case any half decent Junker would be too overcentralizing.

Island Folk: If you can play just 2 PPs reliably, you get an extra turn each round. It costs 5 favor not 4 favor right? so it take 3 plays of PP to get the 1st extra turn. Now given that players can pool favor on those extra turns PP could be quite overcentralizing. But still there are a few counters as Junker will slow down a low velocity card like PP a lot crippling there ability to loop there deck during the extra turn for much value or constancy. Mountain Folk has similar issues to Island Folk but as with both the ceiling of double turn much like ""Double Tactician"" decks. So good combo but more limit then first appears.

Crafter's Guild: PP becomes a Village Workshop (though limited to 1 gain per turn, still extremely powerful). I agree powerful but oddly limited as players pooling many tons of favor due to PP having +2 favor vs +1 would fall off. Architects' Guild seems to me to be the bigger gain focused break case as it can combo into its self to spend 4 or 6 favor in a turn.

League of Bankers seems to be the biggest break case as there is no ceiling for favor in a very direct +$ way. I have tried many game to break League of Bankers and have come up short more often then not, so having a custom card break that would be fun to me.

Peaceful Cult jumped out to be but official dominion puts strong trash at $2 pretty often and PP combining with it is quite comparable Rat Catcher a strong card but has awkward moments as that last curse is just never in the opening hand.

After looking at all the official Allies again I noticed a trend that the biggest powerful combos or break cases for PP were gains, +$, or +Cards which is the biggest downside PP has as it lack them. But the ratio of Allies that do that vs total allies is 7/23 so ~30% .Many of the other allies seem to be focused on providing extra +Buys, +Actions, or Shifting which are much less useful for PP. As breaking the cardis turning PP into a constant payoff source vs the decent enabler that I want it to be.

oh lastly comparison to Bauble is fair but doubling the favor output but losing the +$1 is big. As early PPs will very much cripple players ability to hit $5 on the early turns. Also being an action the generates +action vs Treasure is relevant often as most of us are aware, using our last action on a terminal draw hoping for treasure and getting villages. The timing is very different some allies don't care at all when the liaison is played some care a lot when the liaison is played.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2023, 03:56:27 pm »
0

This is interesting, but how do you envision tracking the cost of each one? Do i use a grease pencil on each card as i buy them? And erase after each game?

Each copy of New Town has a variable cost. Whenever you want to know the cost of it you can work it out from the number of Action cards in play at that time. As segura says.

Might need an FAQ for how the cost-increase interacts with cost-reducers. Probably you just apply all increases/reductions and then check that the end result is not less than 0.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2023, 08:00:14 pm »
+1

The contest is officially closed!

I wonít be able to get the judging up tonight, but Iíll try my best to get it up tomorrow.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #62 on: May 03, 2023, 05:49:41 am »
+1

These is kind of posts that ""show"" how strong/overpowered new cards are is one of the few comments you see on these forms. They all seem to be patterned after the a kingdom has X or Y this card would be too strong or comparing the card to many official cards that share DNA.
Not sure if this is supposed to be a criticism, but if so, I have to wonder what other way you suggest for judging the power level of a card? That is always relative to other cards.

You sometimes get comments here like "this interacts badly with some specific other card", and I agree that that's not generally a big problem unless the interaction is completely game-breaking, since it comes up quite rarely.

However, it's different for the interaction of a Liaison with an Ally. The chance of a Liaison being paired with a specific Ally is significantly bigger than the chance of it appearing in the same kingdom as some specific other card, and that won't change unless there's an expansion coming that revisits Allys.

After looking at all the official Allies again I noticed a trend that the biggest powerful combos or break cases for PP were gains, +$, or +Cards which is the biggest downside PP has as it lack them. But the ratio of Allies that do that vs total allies is 7/23 so ~30% .Many of the other allies seem to be focused on providing extra +Buys, +Actions, or Shifting which are much less useful for PP. As breaking the cardis turning PP into a constant payoff source vs the decent enabler that I want it to be.
Yeah it's "not all Allys" but if the card is OP 30% of the time it's still not a good design.
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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #63 on: May 03, 2023, 07:43:37 am »
+1


Quote
Penny Pincher
Action - Liason
+2 Actions
+2 Buys
+2 Favor
I notice not many cards give multiple favor in official dominion so I thought might be nice to have cheap card do that. I went rather simple as the complexity will mostly come for the Ally. If the ally sucks well at least this card gives players a cheap but bad +2 Actions effect or +Buy effect as most engine decks really needed both.
This is just way too strong. Favors are generally good enough that a card doing nothing but terminally gaining +2 Favors would probably be fine at $2. Just some combinations with Allies for Penny Pincher (PP) would be:
Crafter's Guild: PP becomes a Village Workshop (though limited to 1 gain per turn, still extremely powerful).
Island Folk: If you can play just 2 PPs reliably, you get an extra turn each round.
Circle of Witches: PP is a nonterminal 2/3-Curser.
Fellowship of Scribes: Basically turns PP into a Village with 2 Buys attached.
Plateau Shepherds: Every PP is now also worth 2 VP.

An obvious comparison is Bauble, which effectively just gives +1 for each of the +2s that PP gives (with a bit more flexibility, but still).

These is kind of posts that ""show"" how strong/overpowered new cards are is one of the few comments you see on these forms. They all seem to be patterned after the a kingdom has X or Y this card would be too strong or comparing the card to many official cards that share DNA. Much of the ""gameplay"" of dominion is recognizing these power cases and if the board has enough support for the interaction without giving up other strong opportunities. So I wanted to go more into detail and compare PP to many other Dominion effects. Some combo are just strait too much such as autopileing, or infinite combos, or effects that generate mass value for too cheap. I don't believe PP has any of those issues assuming only using official Dominion cards.

The flat power level of +2 Actions with no +$ or +Cards  is pretty low as the Way of the Ox shows. The +2 Buys was added because to me PP still felt far too narrow to purchase this card if the Ally is middle power level and there was already another source of +Actions in the kingdom. But if the power level is too high I am willing to cut the +2 Buys as they are les core to PP's identify. The reason I did +2 vs +1 was it looked pretty mentally flows better with 2,2, vs 2,1,2 and +Buys to fall off in usefulness past the first unless Bridge effects are in the kingdom which typically break any decent card.

By the very nature of a Liaison its power level is highly dependent on the ally. Each of these ""break"" cases seems strong but not as centralizing as it first appears as many core official cards do better in similar situations already. Your statement that a terminally +2 Favor would be strong enough to see play feels silly to me. It would only see play on boards with plentiful +Actions from other sources and only if is is paired with the most strong Allies. Even then there are probably much better things players could be doing on that board. Now to focusing on the individual mentioned ""break"" cases.

Plateau Shepherds: Every PP is now also worth 2 VP.
If a board had a the basic village (+1 Card +2 Actions) would a player rather have more deck velocity with the +1 Card or flat 2VP? I am leaning toward early game the +1 Card as building as strong typically outdoes flat VP. If somebody had the $5$2 split then yes PP feels free and might lead to some feels bad, but so does most $5$2 split differences on like 30%+ boards. Now, in the mid to late game PP does provide some interesting options for amassing alt VP as the PP are worth 2VP but also Estates (which are easier to get with +2 Buys) can be worth 3VP. Gaining a PP card too late can easily lead to missing out on play it for favor meaning it is not worth 2VP and the more low velocity cards like PP and Estates players add to there deck the more often that will happen; which is common in alt VP strategies. This play pattern is very similar to distant lands, a bit easier as future plays of PP can prepay for late $2s, but also PP does self trash and has to remain in decks increase player's deck size while still providing very little value to players +$ or +cards engines. Feels like great deck to try out but not too dominate.

Fellowship of Scribes: Basically turns PP into a Village with 2 Buys attached. Now with this ally PP is very strong no doubt about that. PP is even more powerful as some decks PP becomes a Lost City with +2 favor can becoming +2 Cards if the hand is played right. But PP does get a bit clunky vs the official card listed as if a player gets a hand of 6 cards or above PP does a lot less. If PP is the only source source of draw they are limit to a 5 card hand with limits trashing opportunities and mega turn. This would be pretty common if VP card can't be trashed, Junkers or the payload in the kingdom are Treasure cards. Also if PP is paired with a more traditional draw effect the ability to get under 5 card can limit PP's ability to mimic Official Village or Lost City. A similar ally is League of Shopkeepers        with less of a hand management minigame it provides a lot value to the weak core of PP. Oddly enough though the +1 Action +1 Buy from the upgraded ally is much less relevant PP already does that. So not sure if scaling down the Flavor fixes this much vs just being decent. Also much like Merchant Camp the lack of +cards does make it much weaker then Market effects.

Circle of Witches: PP is a nonterminal 2/3-Curser. As I have learning in my experiences with Native Village the +1/2 Card +2 Actions tends to not work out as well as +1 Card + 2 Actions bit quite a huge margin. Some of the difference I suppose comes from the 1st play is doing basically nothing delaying the power spike by quite a bit. Other reasons is by doubling down on a faction effect much like journey token card Player maybe be trying to force a card vs play the reliable constant effects in the kingdom. This is doubly so when the combo faction effect miss shuffle and super delay the power spikes. So to me the 2/3 Curser seems slow enough to be nonterminal and not generate too many issues unless there is no trash and/or no shifting. Which in that case any half decent Junker would be too overcentralizing.

Island Folk: If you can play just 2 PPs reliably, you get an extra turn each round. It costs 5 favor not 4 favor right? so it take 3 plays of PP to get the 1st extra turn. Now given that players can pool favor on those extra turns PP could be quite overcentralizing. But still there are a few counters as Junker will slow down a low velocity card like PP a lot crippling there ability to loop there deck during the extra turn for much value or constancy. Mountain Folk has similar issues to Island Folk but as with both the ceiling of double turn much like ""Double Tactician"" decks. So good combo but more limit then first appears.

Crafter's Guild: PP becomes a Village Workshop (though limited to 1 gain per turn, still extremely powerful). I agree powerful but oddly limited as players pooling many tons of favor due to PP having +2 favor vs +1 would fall off. Architects' Guild seems to me to be the bigger gain focused break case as it can combo into its self to spend 4 or 6 favor in a turn.

League of Bankers seems to be the biggest break case as there is no ceiling for favor in a very direct +$ way. I have tried many game to break League of Bankers and have come up short more often then not, so having a custom card break that would be fun to me.

Peaceful Cult jumped out to be but official dominion puts strong trash at $2 pretty often and PP combining with it is quite comparable Rat Catcher a strong card but has awkward moments as that last curse is just never in the opening hand.

After looking at all the official Allies again I noticed a trend that the biggest powerful combos or break cases for PP were gains, +$, or +Cards which is the biggest downside PP has as it lack them. But the ratio of Allies that do that vs total allies is 7/23 so ~30% .Many of the other allies seem to be focused on providing extra +Buys, +Actions, or Shifting which are much less useful for PP. As breaking the cardis turning PP into a constant payoff source vs the decent enabler that I want it to be.

oh lastly comparison to Bauble is fair but doubling the favor output but losing the +$1 is big. As early PPs will very much cripple players ability to hit $5 on the early turns. Also being an action the generates +action vs Treasure is relevant often as most of us are aware, using our last action on a terminal draw hoping for treasure and getting villages. The timing is very different some allies don't care at all when the liaison is played some care a lot when the liaison is played.
I am just gonna comment on Plateau Shepherd. Dude, that is beyond crazy! You got 2VPs and then some (there is always Estates and perhaps some other $2) which could easily converge towards the VPs of a Duchy. A Duchy for $2 that is also a Necro with Buys.

You are absolutely correct in pointing out that a Necro with 2 Buys is weak, youíd rather have Villa or Festival and even those splitters have their issues as they donít draw.
But trivializing stuff trashing, junking, drawing or extra turns is not gonna fix a totally broken card.

It might be OK with 1 Favour but even that seems dubious as the card still does 3 jobs then. Squire is also a flexible weak Village but at least you gotta play it terminally for the Buys, it is choose and not get everything.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2023, 07:46:47 am by segura »
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arowdok

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #64 on: May 03, 2023, 01:45:15 pm »
0

These is kind of posts that ""show"" how strong/overpowered new cards are is one of the few comments you see on these forms. They all seem to be patterned after the a kingdom has X or Y this card would be too strong or comparing the card to many official cards that share DNA.
Not sure if this is supposed to be a criticism, but if so, I have to wonder what other way you suggest for judging the power level of a card? That is always relative to other cards.

You sometimes get comments here like "this interacts badly with some specific other card", and I agree that that's not generally a big problem unless the interaction is completely game-breaking, since it comes up quite rarely.

So I had to rework that first section a few time to not come off as hostile as I am become frustrated at this forms as it seems like many users here submit cards and get little to no helpful feedback. Most times posts just get met with silence or a mention on grammar issues. The other feedback I tend to see is usually a "This is too op" and not much data showing why? Very few posts comment on how exciting it would be to play that card or oh that is interesting but under-costed compared to these official cards or based on this writing from the designer that core design has been playtested found to be problematic. But as a commenter maybe I am wrong, you as the creator should playtest your card and get back to us at the forms with your findings. I know we all don't have too much time to commit to other people's creative efforts but isn't that the point of these forms, right?

Your comment that a +2 Favor terminal was a playable card felt to me like you were out of touch with the balance of the game. As you are a mod who does post quite a bit, I did initially doubt myself and had to reconsider my submission. So I spent a couple hours investigating how crazy my card was. Starting with you claim a terminal +2 Favor card at $2 would be see play at all.

This is my analysis for the ($2cost Terminal +2 Favor) not PP
  Plateau Shepherds - players can do an alt VP deck but it still takes time/actions, many buys/gains, and clutters their deck a lot with $2s. This would mostly see play to 3 pile rushes or an engine deck would try to use it to recoup the lead a Big money deck would have over them after taking time to build an engine. Now this is only playable in my mind if players have access to +Buys or workshops and there are no other better Alt VP cards in the kingdom. Still the best Ally for this +2 Favor terminal card.
  Crafters' Guild - this just turns it into a limited Armory that can be purchased alongside another $4/$5 on the first two turns. Decent but should not be too game warping. I see it similar to when a card is targeted by a trait and it is considered strong but really it is fine.
  Peaceful Cult - this would be like a double rat catcher but much worse as the +2 Favor card itself does not replace either the Action nor the Card. Still it would see play if other trash options were limited.
  League of Shopkeepers - this is after enough play it becomes a +$1, +1 Action, +1 Buy. Is this good enough no except when no other +buy options are on board or players need a non-Treasure payload for Library decks. as it is still worse than Candlestick Maker.

Please check my work as I am human and make errors. These are the only allies I would expect to even consider making the above card playable. So really 2/23 is 9% and if you were stretching 17% if all four cases were considered playable.

Now overall I do think my card Penny Pincher is overpowered and might need some tuning. I have found for my initial playtests of new designs it is far better to be overpowered by being undercosted for example then get ignored by players. So I am going to try out as is and get back to the form with my findings and I hope you can be okay with that. I am really excited to see if ďtoo much FavorĒ can supercharge a very bad core into playability.

However, it's different for the interaction of a Liaison with an Ally. The chance of a Liaison being paired with a specific Ally is significantly bigger than the chance of it appearing in the same kingdom as some specific other card, and that won't change unless there's an expansion coming that revisits Allys.

After looking at all the official Allies again I noticed a trend that the biggest powerful combos or break cases for PP were gains, +$, or +Cards which is the biggest downside PP has as it lack them. But the ratio of Allies that do that vs total allies is 7/23 so ~30% .Many of the other allies seem to be focused on providing extra +Buys, +Actions, or Shifting which are much less useful for PP. As breaking the cardis turning PP into a constant payoff source vs the decent enabler that I want it to be.
Yeah it's "not all Allys" but if the card is OP 30% of the time it's still not a good design.

Now what level of OP%  is considered ok? like many of the official cards are over tuned and played well over 30% of kingdoms they appear in, right? Like Chapel, OG Witch, Gardens and Wharf either reshape how the game is played significantly or are on their face just a wrong number somewhere but they are still very core to Dominion and its play experience. Also with the inclusion of trait cards in the game, how balanced any card is in any given kingdom is really thrown out the window. Like half or more of the skill in the game of Dominion if finding the OP effects in the current kingdom and taking advantage of them. So personally a card being strong/OP in only 30% games is great, if its in more than half that maybe time to reconsider. Maybe I am way off base and would love to hear from others how much OP% they are okay in this community.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #65 on: May 03, 2023, 02:20:00 pm »
+2

Now what level of OP%  is considered ok?
A card being too strong or too weak is never ever OK. Just because the official game features some cards which are clearly overpowered does not imply that balance is irrelevant when you design fan cards.

There is also a difference between e.g. Cultist and Ironmonger, a broken design that is no fun and a very strong $4 that does not break anything. Your design isn't simply a strong $2, it is absolutey ludicrous at that price level.


The other feedback I tend to see is usually a "This is too op" and not much data showing why? Very few posts comment on how exciting it would be to play that card or oh that is interesting but under-costed compared to these official cards or based on this writing from the designer that core design has been playtested found to be problematic.
There is more (you exaggerate, most folks who host design contests provide deep feedback that includes other topics than balance) feedback on strength and costs here because that is easier to evaluate than how interesting, fun, innovative or game-warping a design is.
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #66 on: May 03, 2023, 02:40:07 pm »
+4

These is kind of posts that ""show"" how strong/overpowered new cards are is one of the few comments you see on these forms. They all seem to be patterned after the a kingdom has X or Y this card would be too strong or comparing the card to many official cards that share DNA.
Not sure if this is supposed to be a criticism, but if so, I have to wonder what other way you suggest for judging the power level of a card? That is always relative to other cards.

You sometimes get comments here like "this interacts badly with some specific other card", and I agree that that's not generally a big problem unless the interaction is completely game-breaking, since it comes up quite rarely.

So I had to rework that first section a few time to not come off as hostile as I am become frustrated at this forms as it seems like many users here submit cards and get little to no helpful feedback. Most times posts just get met with silence or a mention on grammar issues. The other feedback I tend to see is usually a "This is too op" and not much data showing why? Very few posts comment on how exciting it would be to play that card or oh that is interesting but under-costed compared to these official cards or based on this writing from the designer that core design has been playtested found to be problematic. But as a commenter maybe I am wrong, you as the creator should playtest your card and get back to us at the forms with your findings. I know we all don't have too much time to commit to other people's creative efforts but isn't that the point of these forms, right?

I kind of agree with this, especially because (as I said before) I think balance is an invalid concept to begin with. It works in one direction; cards that are too weak are bad designs because well they don't do anything. But there is no such thing as a card being too strong. If a card is bad, there's always a reason other than strength. To take the obvious example, I think chapel is awesome for the game, and it's a 2$ that would be an auto-buy at 4$ in almost every kingdom. (And hello, Donate? Seriously, Donate should have been the nail in the coffin for the "balance is inherently a meaningful concept in dominion" position.)

Like, generally we like interesting decisions. Figuring out whether to buy something is one such decision. If a card is very strong, this goes away. But if the card introduces other decisions -- like chapel or donate -- that's fine. Powerlevel tends to be more of an issue if the card is spammable and/or pretty easy to play.  But the point is, it's not an issue in itself; at least a high powerlevel isn't.  So even if the card has problems related to strength (which certainly happens), you should always explain why that's bad rather than just calling it OP.

I think people tend to focus on powerlevel and grammar because it's most objective. If you critique fun-ness, you risk being in a minority position -- perhaps most other people think the card is fun! And being in the minority is scary! And you also risk coming across as authoritative.  With grammar and powerlevel, you're safer. And I think pointing out grammar mistakes is good thing, even if mb we should talk more about funness.

(I'd comment on your card, but I don't know what favors do  :P)

Also, you shouldn't have to playtest your cards. I certainly don't.

AJL828

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #67 on: May 03, 2023, 11:20:48 pm »
+6

The judging is in! You guys sure made this one tough on me, there were so many great ideas this week!


Augie279
Quote
Forest Village
Action - $5
+2 Actions
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 3 Victory cards. Discard any number of them, then shuffle the revealed cards back into your deck.
It can be useful if youíre careful about triggering shuffles, but without any sifting  for your current hand and a -1 to handsize it seems a little too situational for me.

JW
Quote
Granary
$5 - Action
+1 Card and +2 Actions
You may discard up to two cards, revealed. For each Action or Gold discarded, +2 Cards.
Very strong once your deck is action or Gold rich, but of course it usually takes some time to get there. Also has a pleasant interaction with Shelters, which is always fun. I like this one.

BryGuy
Quote
Town Crazy
$5 Action
+2 Actions,
Choose one: discard a card for +2 Cards; or discard two same named cards, not costing $0, to gain a Madman.
The handsize neutral sifting option seems fine. Interesting use of Madman, however I feel this will wind up being too strong in many cases as playing multiple Madmen often results in overdraw and trivializes getting more Madmen for your next turn. Thereís also the issue of them running out; with only 10 Madmen its very possible to shut opponents out of getting any, especially in 3 or 4 player games.

xyz123
Quote
Gentrified Village
Treasure-Duration
$5

$1
+1 Coffer
_______________________________________
At the start of your next turn +2 Actions
A very useful card in getting both $ and Actions when you need them most. I can easily see myself picking up a pair of these to keep my turns reliable. Great work!

majiponi
Quote
Poor Village
cost $3 - Action
+2 Actions
Reveal your hand.  If you don't have any Treasures, +2 Cards.
An awesome mishmash of Poor House and Shanty Town. Requiring exactly zero treasures in hand makes it play differently from Poor House, and with good trashing itíll be much easier to activate than Shanty Town (plus it isnít slowed down by extra copies of itself). Very thematic and a great $3 Village.

NoMoreFun
Quote
Outskirts
Action - $2
+1 Card
+2 Actions
_______
When you gain this, trash it if you have an Outskirts in play
A cheap village with a fun exercise of how to workaround its drawback, especially since many sources of +Buy and extra gains are terminal. You can try to scoop up a bunch at once or gain them early in your turn before you play any. And of course thereís always shenanigans with things like Watchtower or Tiara. Great entry!

czzzz
Quote
Thrifty Village
Action - $3
+2 Actions
Discard a card, then put a card from the discard pile into your hand. Reveal your hand. If there were exactly 2 Action cards in your hand, +$2.
Has the Harbinger problem of being somewhat limited in what it can do when your discard pile is empty (not quite as much as Harbinger though). I do really like the minigame of getting exactly 2 Actions in hand for +$2, I think that could work out well with DTX decks.

4est
Quote
Action - $5
Restored Village
+1 Card
+2 Actions
---
When you gain this, do this twice: Trash a card from your hand, then gain a card costing exactly $1 more than it other than Restored Village.
I love this on-gain effect, itís very useful for kick-starting your engine building quickly. The fact that itís mandatory also means you have to be careful in the lategame (with cards like Haggler for instance). I do agree with the note that this could be problematic if gained outside of your turn, mostly because it can knock your handsize down to 0 without a way for you to stop it. But other than that minor problem, I love this card.

faust
Quote
Pirate's Lair - $2
Action

+1 Card
+2 Actions

Gain a non-Victory card costing exactly $1 per card you've gained this turn.
I love cantrip gainers, I wish official Dominion had more of them! It seems a bit to difficult to use without any other gainers around, but I do like how itíll only be junking you once a turn at worst. Its own low price also helps you get more of them through its effect, but the frequent lack of $1 cards makes sure it isnít too easy to do so. Great job!

fika monster
Quote
Welcoming Village , $3 Action

+1 Card, +2 Villagers
-
When you gain this during your turn, you get +1 Buy, +2 Villagers, and all other players get a copy of Welcoming Village.
I think that even with the changes you made this still provides too much benefit to your opponents, as in many cases they will be able to use their free village before you get to use your free Villagers. The pile will also run far too quick in 3 and 4 player games.

Nyxfulloftricks
Quote
Village Well - Action
+2 Actions
+1 Coffer
You may play an Heirloom from your hand to gain +1%.

Lucky Copper - Treasure - Heirloom
$1
Name a card. Reveal the top card of your deck. If it's the named card, put it into your hand.
I love cards that play Treasures during the Action Phase, but limiting it to just the Heirloom is a bit too restricted in my opinion. As for the Heirloom itself, it will often make for some frustrating openings as drawing it T2 will cause you to trigger a shuffle, which can be either very good or bad depending on how much money you had T1. I like things that mix up openings, but the way this Heirloom does it feels too random to me.

anordinaryman
Quote
Ransacked Village | Action | $2
+1 Card
+2 Actions
When you gain a Victory card this turn, trash this.
-
When you gain this from the supply, you may gain a non-Victory card from the trash.
Another cheap village with an interesting restriction to work around. I do think making the pile larger was a good call, and the extra gain from the trash seems really fun, although I think it would work a little better with a cost cap of $6 in place. Overall still a solid entry.

LibraryAdventurer
Quote
Hotel Pub
$5 - Action
+2 Cards
+2 Actions.
You may discard a treasure. If you didn't, gain a Copper on top of your deck.
This looks too weak for $5. The fact that the Copper is gained onto your deck means both choices of this card will effectively keep your handsize the same in most cases. I think this would be better if the Copper was gained to the discard.

sumrex
Quote
Laidback Life $3
Now and at the start of your next 2 turns:
+1 Action
+1$

Maybe very simple, but sometimes simple is all you need.
I think this compares too well to Taskmaster, and without the gaining restriction is also just less interesting. Itís a little too simple for my taste.

D782802859
Quote
Distant Village
$5 Action
+1 Card
+1 Buy
Choose one: +1 Card;
or +2 Actions.
-
When you gain this, draw an extra card for your next hand per unused Action you have (Action, not Action card).
Ideally you want to have just enough Actions to supply all your terminal cards, and at least for me this is the case in most engine games. The main exception to this games with Throne Room variants or Champion, in which this effect will be incredibly powerful. The on-play of the card is fine, but weak for $5. Overall I think this will fluctuate too much in strength, mostly being on the weak side.

segura
Quote
Action - $2
Country Village

+2 Actions
You may discard a Victory card for +1 VP.
---
When you gain this, you may play it.
A great enabler for DTX decks, and still a passable village otherwise. I appreciate the dilemma it creates, similar to Baron, about it being worthwhile to keep just one Estate around. Playing it on gain also allows for some neat tricks, what if that Workshop was suddenly also a village? Nice work!

emtzalex
Quote
Floating Village ē $2 ē Action - Duration
+1 Card
You may discard a card for +2 Actions. If
you discarded an Action card, then at the
start of your next turn, repeat this ability.
Once this is set up properly it can keep your engine super reliable (as keeping it in play will allow it to be a double village rather than a normal village). Timing when to get it is interesting, as itís not very strong as a normal village (as you said, strictly worse than Hamlet when not discarding Actions). I donít think itís too strong but I also donít think it would be too weak at $3 either. Either way, I like the card, I hope to see more official ďrepeat this abilityĒ cards in the future.

Xen3k
Quote
Watchful Village - $3
Night - Duration
Now and at the start of your next turn, look at the top 3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the last one back onto your deck.
Until then, each player starts their next turn with 2 Actions.
I like the double Lookout effect, it thins you down at a rate better than Amulet (as its non-terminal and sifts as well). However Iím not sure extra Actions is the best boost to give other players to compensate for its strength, as youíre mostly only going to be playing it early on and its quite likely that other players donít draw colliding terminals at that point in the game (or if they do, itíll be by pure chance).

silverspawn
Quote
Action - $2
Quiet Village

+2 Actions
---
When you gain this, you may discard your hand. If you do, +1 Villager per card discarded.
Another awesome on-gain bonus. This has many potential use cases like setting yourself up with Villagers to resolve upcoming terminal collision or spending a little extra cash to make sure your engine doesnít dud in the lategame.

X-tra
Quote
Action - Reaction - $3
Shortcut

+2 Actions
+1 Buy
---
When you gain an Action card, you may reveal this from your hand, to play the gained card.
It seems you forgot to add a restriction to this to prevent it from autopiling Workshop type cards (personally I think the discard suggestion would be best). But other than that issue, this is a really fun reaction that allows this to act as a village in more than one way. Great work!

Lackar
Quote
Exiled Village
$5
Action - Duration
+2 Actions

At the start of your next turn.
+1 Card
You may Exile a card from your hand.
This seems too slow of a thinner for $5, as it can only thin 1 card every other turn at most. And as I had said earlier about Watchful Village, utilizing the extra Actions early on will also be hard to do reliably.

Will(ow | iam)
Quote
Crafty Village
$5 Action
+2 Actions
Gain a card costing up to $4
This seems okay for $5 but just doesnít excite me very much; itís just a Workshop thatís also a village.

Gubump
Quote
Action - Duration - $3
Hidden Village

+1 Card
+1 Action
At the start of your next turn, +1 Villager.
I think this will have the most interesting decisions when also in a board with the standard Village; do you want a more reliable, but smaller Village effect, or a larger, but riskier one? To me they seem pretty much evenly matched which is excellent design.

Violet CLM
Quote
Tourist Trap
$3 Action

+5 Actions
I think this is too good for $3, it provides more Actions than Snowy Village without the huge restriction that that card has. I also find this to be too simple for my tastes, itís just a lot of one vanilla effect and nothing else.

RovingBear
Quote
Action - Duration - $6
Vassal City

+1 Card
+2 Actions
Discard 1 card.
At the start of each of your turns for the rest of the game, +1 Action.
Strength wise I think this is fine, but it seems really awkward to have an on play effect for a single turn and then just have the card sit there. Itís also very similar to Barracks for this reason.

grep
Quote
Prospector
Action - $3
Look at the top two cards of your deck. Choose one: put them into your hand, or discard them for +2 Actions
Like Forest Village, I think this is going to be too difficult to use in most cases as it doesnít allow you to sift whatís in your hand. The search space on this card is also quite small, so you might be forced into discarding some good Actions or otherwise draw them dead.

arowdok
Quote
Penny Pincher
Action - Liason - $2
+2 Actions
+2 Buys
+2 Favors
From my scanning of all the Allies in the game, I do think this would be very strong with quite a lot of them. Iím not sure if itís enough to consider it overpowered though. Looking beyond strength, the card just provides vanilla bonuses with the Favors you get, which is again a little too simple for my taste.

infangthief
Quote
New Town
$1* Action

+1 Action per $1 this costs.
----
This costs $1 more per Action card in play (anywhere).
With workshops I think this will be too potent of a village and/or TFB card. Peddler is pretty notoriously good as TFB, but its price is high during the Action phase meaning youíll have to rack up a lot of Buys to get some. And with the unlimited potential of this cardís cost scaling (unlike Peddler) some TFB cards will be able to get far more mileage out of it. I think this concept could work if it was a bit more restricted in how high it can get.


Final Results:

Honourable Mentions: Poor Village by majiponi, Outskirts by NoMoreFun, Country Village by segura, Shortcut by X-tra, Hidden Village by Gubump

Runner Ups: Restored Village by 4est and Pirate's Lair by faust

Winner: Quiet Village by silverspawn

Congrats to silverspawn for winning and thank you all for your participation!
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silverspawn

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2023, 03:17:45 am »
0

woo, thanks!!

So I'd love to host the next contest, but I stopped playing after Menagerie, which means I don't know the mechanics of the last two expansions, Allies and Plunder. (I wouldn't mind looking them up, but I don't think I should judge mechanics that I haven't played with.) That means you couldn't do Favors and these other fancy new thing for one contest (but everything up to and including Menagerie is okay). I'm assuming this is fine, but if not I'm giving anyone a chance to complain before I put up the next thread.

faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2023, 04:29:24 am »
0

woo, thanks!!

So I'd love to host the next contest, but I stopped playing after Menagerie, which means I don't know the mechanics of the last two expansions, Allies and Plunder. (I wouldn't mind looking them up, but I don't think I should judge mechanics that I haven't played with.) That means you couldn't do Favors and these other fancy new thing for one contest (but everything up to and including Menagerie is okay). I'm assuming this is fine, but if not I'm giving anyone a chance to complain before I put up the next thread.
That should be fine; I mean, it's just another constraint for that week's challenge.
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fika monster

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2023, 05:15:13 am »
0

A mixture of Port and Lost city

v2

Quote
Welcoming Village , $3 Action

+1 Card, +2 Villagers
-
When you gain this during your turn, you get +1 Buy, +2 Villagers, and all other players get a copy of Welcoming Village.

The pile has 12 16 Cards in it, since its very attractive and will probably run out fast.

I don't think there has been a card that is put into OTHER PLAYERS hands, and in a good way: and so i wanted to play with that. Since its essentially a +1 Card effect, i wanted to make it feel good for the giving player, so therefore gaining it during your turn would give you a village effect.
This should be the first kind of card that GIVES other players a genuilly good card. Games with this should be plentiful with actions and draw, becoming unusual and different, maybe too quick.

The card shouldnt have a infinite loop that runs out immideatly with the "gain during your turn" clause: it would be very awkward if giving this card away once would immideatly empty its pile.

last edit before i give up on the card

Added "gain two horses" when you gain it. Considered having it say "+1 card" when you gain it, but then you could empty it way too quickly imo if you happened to draw into the workshops.

Also added a "first time you gain this during your turn" To make the pile emptying happen a bit more slowly
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest #185: It Takes A Village
« Reply #71 on: May 04, 2023, 05:57:01 am »
+1

A mixture of Port and Lost city

v2

Quote
Welcoming Village , $3 Action

+1 Card, +2 Villagers
-
When you gain this during your turn, you get +1 Buy, +2 Villagers, and all other players get a copy of Welcoming Village.

The pile has 12 16 Cards in it, since its very attractive and will probably run out fast.

I don't think there has been a card that is put into OTHER PLAYERS hands, and in a good way: and so i wanted to play with that. Since its essentially a +1 Card effect, i wanted to make it feel good for the giving player, so therefore gaining it during your turn would give you a village effect.
This should be the first kind of card that GIVES other players a genuilly good card. Games with this should be plentiful with actions and draw, becoming unusual and different, maybe too quick.

The card shouldnt have a infinite loop that runs out immideatly with the "gain during your turn" clause: it would be very awkward if giving this card away once would immideatly empty its pile.

last edit before i give up on the card

Added "gain two horses" when you gain it. Considered having it say "+1 card" when you gain it, but then you could empty it way too quickly imo if you happened to draw into the workshops.

Also added a "first time you gain this during your turn" To make the pile emptying happen a bit more slowly
Unfortunately, I think this is now again too good. With the "gain 2 Horses", it is pretty much strictly better than Experiment.
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