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Author Topic: Allies Preview 4: Recursion  (Read 19326 times)

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Donald X.

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Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« on: March 03, 2022, 03:00:12 am »
+17

Recursion is a smaller sub-theme of the set. Ways to get a card back somehow. First, it's another split pile, the Wizards:



Student goes on top of your deck when it trashes a Copper; you can play it multiple times in the same turn. And hey, it's another Liaison. Conjurer can keep going to your hand turn after turn, you just need to keep playing it. And Lich comes back when you try to trash it, like a Fortress only not to your hand. Also Lich can uh skip your turn? Well maybe you aren't getting another turn anyway. Sorcerer meanwhile is the counterpart to Sorceress; it makes them play the guessing game instead of you.

Two more recursive cards:



Merchant Camp is a village you can have in your starting hand for the rest of the game. It doesn't draw a card, but you can't have everything. Highwayman is the Duration draw card that you can play every turn - draw your deck, and at the end you'll find the Highwayman.

Here are two more Ally cards again; things to try with your Students.



Island Folk lets you take extra turns; maybe that's worth getting some Underlings for. Order of Masons is a novel one: it lets you keep cards out of a shuffle.

Again, cards can be tried out almost immediately at https://dominion.games/.
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mxdata

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2022, 03:12:55 am »
+2

Those Wizards are breaking my brain. They feel way overpowered, but I'm sure that impression will turn out to be wrong, or it would never have made it past play-testing. How does Lich interact with cards that give you another turn? For example, if you play a Lich and a Journey in the same turn, do they just cancel each other out? Also, how does skipping a turn work mechanically? For example, I play Lich on my turn. At the end of my turn, I discard my cards and draw 5 cards, then my opponent plays a turn. After their turn, do I discard my 5 cards and draw a new hand, then they play, or does play completely bypass me?

Highwayman would *not* play very well with Capitalism I think
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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2022, 03:27:15 am »
+6

For example, I play Lich on my turn. At the end of my turn, I discard my cards and draw 5 cards, then my opponent plays a turn. After their turn, do I discard my 5 cards and draw a new hand, then they play, or does play completely bypass me?

discarding your hand & drawing a new one is part of your turn, so if you skip the turn, you also skip that.
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AJD

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2022, 03:36:56 am »
+8

Oh, I see, Lich is like a backwards Tactician.
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faust

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2022, 03:38:03 am »
+3

Nice! I like how Sorcerer is inverted Sorceress; instead of you, your opponents guess. Also nice that it can hit at most once unless you can mess with their deck in between.

It's also nice to see new cards that kind of complement old ones. Lich is a this-turn Tactician, Highwayman is a Treasure-Enchantress.

PPE: As AJD said  :)
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2022, 03:40:28 am »
0

Sorcerer looks way, and I mean, way better than Sorceress.

Also, Highwayman is an example of a Duration you can play each turn. I'm wondering, is Seaside 2E also getting these kinds of Durations?

And if you throne Highwayman, the throner doesn't get discarded at the start of the turn, right?

Anyway, kudos to the high amount of split piles. Also good that this expansion seems to be limiting to 2 new "core set-exclusive" mechanics. I mean, Nocturne was bloated with these types of things and ended up being a little underwhelming because of that.

EDIT: This split pile seems almost nonexistent on internal synergy, unlike the piles we have seen before. It's just a bunch of limited cards that can be extraordinarily powerful under the right circumstances. So the power discrepancy makes sense.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 03:47:59 am by grrgrrgrr »
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faust

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2022, 03:47:29 am »
+4

Sorcerer looks way, and I mean, way better than Sorceress.
Really? I thought it was the other way around. You can set up Sorceress for a guaranteed hit. You can curse multiple times a turn with Sorceress. Neither of these is possible with Sorcerer. True, the base chance to curse is probably a bit higher on Sorcerer, but Sorceress has a way higher ceiling.
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pst

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2022, 03:55:32 am »
+5

Note to self: Don't play Possession if player to left played Lich last turn.
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AJD

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2022, 03:57:55 am »
+7

Note to self: Don't play Possession if player to left played Lich last turn.

That said, probably don't gain Lich if your opponent has Possession.
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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2022, 04:07:02 am »
+4

Does a skipped turn still count towards the turn count for tiebreakers? I'm guessing the answer is yes since extra turns don't increase your turn number
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faust

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2022, 04:08:13 am »
+2

Just played a game with Wizards. They're fun, but it seems quite problematic that Student is a trasher that you can lock other players out of getting once you have it. If there is no other trashing, it's basically a mandatory opener, even on 5/2.
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faust

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2022, 04:09:53 am »
+5

Note to self: Don't play Possession if player to left played Lich last turn.

That said, probably don't gain Lich if your opponent has Possession.
That said, probably don't play with Possession.
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grrgrrgrr

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2022, 04:33:47 am »
0

Sorcerer looks way, and I mean, way better than Sorceress.
Really? I thought it was the other way around. You can set up Sorceress for a guaranteed hit. You can curse multiple times a turn with Sorceress. Neither of these is possible with Sorcerer. True, the base chance to curse is probably a bit higher on Sorcerer, but Sorceress has a way higher ceiling.

Sorceress is frustratingly bad without this setting up. Sibyl obviously exists as a setup card, but that card is rare and expansive. I guess a Sorceress is just a card that needs (specific) support to be good. And it makes literally any card that can inspect, setup or rearrange much better; it's probably godly with Wandering Minstrel.

And I completely overlooked the fact that Sorcerer works only once at most per turn. That indeed holds it back severely and makes it likely worse than Sorceress.
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King Leon

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2022, 05:05:36 am »
+5

What happens, when Highwayman and Enchantress are in play and someone plays Crown (or any +$ Action card with Capitalism)?

And another edge case: Assuming Highwayman is in play and I did not play any Treasure cards, but +$ Action cards like Festival, buy Capitalism in my turn and then return to my Action phase by buying a Villa. Will the next Treasure or +$ Action card I play in the same turn do nothing or is Highwayman without effect, because that card would not be the first Treasure card in my turn?

Does “does nothing” also mean, that Adventure tokens have no effect?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 05:24:40 am by King Leon »
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m_knox

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2022, 05:18:52 am »
+3

What happens, when Highwayman and Enchantress are in play and someone plays Crown (or any Action card with +$ with Capitalism)?
Since you decide the order of execution of simultaneous effects, they may become "nothing" or "+1 card +1 action". That's my guess.
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Jeebus

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2022, 06:28:22 am »
0

And another edge case: Assuming Highwayman is in play and I did not play any Treasure cards, but +$ Action cards like Festival, buy Capitalism in my turn and then return to my Action phase by buying a Villa. Will the next Treasure or +$ Action card I play in the same turn do nothing or is Highwayman without effect, because that card would not be the first Treasure card in my turn?

I see what you mean. I deleted my previous answer. You have played an Action card (like Festival), but now it's (also) a Treasure card. Hmm. I'm pretty sure it doesn't count as the "first Treasure you play", because it wasn't a Treasure when you played it. I think there's a precedent for this, but I'll have to look for it. But good question.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 12:02:40 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2022, 06:38:24 am »
0

I also wonder about how Highwayman affects Treasures.

What does "does nothing" mean? I think this text is a bit too short. Is it like Enchantress?: the first time each other player plays a Treasure each turn, they do nothing instead of following its instructions.
Or does it literally mean "does nothing", so not even under-the-line stuff?

Is it timed exactly like Enchantress, so you get to choose which if both have been played?

How about Envious? Now it matters how this is timed. Is it timed like Enchantress and/or Highwayman? (You could choose to get $1 instead of nothing from your Silver/Gold.)

This can also be asked about Coppersmith actually. If it has the same timing, you could apply Coppersmith first and get $2, and Highwayman would fail.

EDIT: Or, are Envious and Coppersmith "shape-shifting" the Treasures, so that the Treasures' abilities are actually changed? Then Highwayman would always override them ... if it's timed like Enchantress.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 07:12:55 am by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2022, 06:41:53 am »
+1

With Lich, you should be able to choose which turn to skip if you have several coming up, like one from Voyage and one from Outpost for instance. I mean, you can always choose which turn to take next, and I guess that's the turn you will skip.

Jeebus

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2022, 07:06:57 am »
0

And another edge case: Assuming Highwayman is in play and I did not play any Treasure cards, but +$ Action cards like Festival, buy Capitalism in my turn and then return to my Action phase by buying a Villa. Will the next Treasure or +$ Action card I play in the same turn do nothing or is Highwayman without effect, because that card would not be the first Treasure card in my turn?

I see what you mean. I deleted my previous answer. You have played an Action card (like Festival), but now it's (also) a Treasure card. Hmm. I'm pretty sure it doesn't count as the "first Treasure you play", because it wasn't a Treasure when you played it. I think there's a precedent for this, but I'll have to look for it. But good question.

We probably have to go back to the previuos, "shape-shifting" version of Band of Misfits. When playing BoM-as-Treasure Map, it was ruled that Treasure Map only cares that you trashed a Treasure Map, not what the card is now. This was even before Treasure Map's text changed from present to past tense.
Also, gaining BoM and playing it with Innovation could give it other types. But cards like Battlefield, Guildhall and Black Cat only care about what the BoM was when you gained it, not what it is when you're resolving Battlefield/Guildhall/Black Cat.
Again, this applied to the old BoM, not the current one.

Pretty strong evidence that you can't dodge the Highwayman with Capitalism and Villa.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 12:03:40 pm by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2022, 07:41:49 am »
0

Does a skipped turn still count towards the turn count for tiebreakers? I'm guessing the answer is yes since extra turns don't increase your turn number

Also, does the skipped turn still count as your "next turn" for effects from Durations etc.? Guess not.

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2022, 07:47:41 am »
+9

If you play 2 Liches in the same turn, do you skip your next two turns, or just your next one?
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Wizard_Amul

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2022, 07:55:31 am »
+1

Am I missing something? I’m surprised nobody has commented on Lich’s below the line text wording. Shouldn’t it say “when you would trash this, discard it instead” or “when you trash this, put it in your discard pile” (I prefer this one—closer to Fortress wording) instead of “when you trash this, discard it”? I didn’t think you could “discard” anything from the trash to put into your discard pile—come to think of it, though, there’s no other card that tries to discard from the trash, so maybe this is something new that works differently (i.e., it has always been possible to discard from the trash, and it’s just never been done before).

Edit: added a few words
« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 08:06:44 am by Wizard_Amul »
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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2022, 08:42:15 am »
0

If you play 2 Liches in the same turn, do you skip your next two turns, or just your next one?

I believe the ruling is that skipped turns are cumulative, so playing two Liches will skip your next two turns.
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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2022, 08:43:46 am »
+9

If you play 2 Liches in the same turn, do you skip your next two turns, or just your next one?

I believe the ruling is that skipped turns are cumulative, so playing two Liches will skip your next two turns.

King's Court - King's Court - Lich - Lich - Lich

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Re: Allies Preview 4: Recursion
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2022, 09:06:23 am »
+1

If Lich is skipping your next turn, shouldn't it be a duration card?
But if it's skipping the rest of this turn, giving you actions is pointless.
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