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[Davio]

Just played a game with Wizards. They're fun, but it seems quite problematic that Student is a trasher that you can lock other players out of getting once you have it. If there is no other trashing, it's basically a mandatory opener, even on 5/2.

Not locked out; they can always just buy their way through the pile ;-)

Maybe it's me, but I don't think Student is all that overpowered. It trashes just a single card which is not that impressive, BM probably even beats BM+Student.
You have to trash Treasures to get its benefit, but in the early game Coppers are important to reach those critical $5 cards (oftentimes the critical cards are $5+), and Estates are not so you'd rather trash Estates if you can.
And besides trashing, it provides no other value, especially if the Ally isn't that useful.

The topdecking seems powerful, but when you start the game, you only have 10 cards, so say you bought any other trashing card, you'll play it every other turn anyway and increasingly often after you've started thinning.

So you are sacrificing a lot, and I do mean a lot of early game tempo if your strategy depends on Student, so your engine needs to be good enough to catch up.

I don't know if the "Silver test" is still a thing, but there will be many times where you wished it was a Silver.

I'm not sure if this is old meta, but comparing BM+X to BM isn't really a thing anymore; you never play BM+X anyway. Most games have engines. Engines want trashing. If there's no trashing other than Student, you're going to need Student.

The power level is probably comparable to Forager. Sure, there are better trashers, but most games won't have those.

Well there are engines in many shapes and sizes and what even is an engine?
I don't know what the meta is, but I do know the meta has a tendency to overvalue engines, since engines are cool and shiny and everybody wants to build them so you end up with 2 competing engines and 1 will win and you go "See? The engine won!" and then you don't notice that it took the engine 20+ turns to buy 4 Provinces. I've beaten many engines with just treasures and X because a key component was missing, such as +Buy (or another form of gain), which I think is more critical for engines than trashing.

I'm just saying that if Student is the only trashing, the engine payoff really has to be quite good to make it worth the investment.

The power level is probably comparable to Forager. Sure, there are better trashers, but most games won't have those.

Well Forager has +Buy, so that makes it a way better engine enabler.

[Jeebus]

I'm not sure if this is old meta, but comparing BM+X to BM isn't really a thing anymore; you never play BM+X anyway.

Really? I sometimes play BM + Vault or BM + Cultist. Admittedly those games are getting rarer. But like Davio said, BM+X can beat an engine more times than most of us actually find out.

[LastFootnote]

I now had 3 Wizard games. Each of them was 4/3 vs 5/2. Each of them was decided by getting access to Student. This seems like a major flaw to me. And it's a shame, because it could have easily been avoided: Just change Student so the player to your left gets to decide whether to rotate the pile.

The player to your left probably doesn't want you to have first shot at whatever the next card is, so they'll say no. And the pile will never be rotated. Sounds bad!

You can buy Student with your $5 hand, or you can just wait until they rotate the pile for you. It's not perfect, but it mostly works out.

[Jeebus]

Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Outpost, Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of my normal turn the Outpost turn?

I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.

Edit: fixed.

[GendoIkari]

Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of my normal turn?

I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.

This seems to make Lich and Voyage a fairly powerful combo. Or Lich and Mission.

[mxdata]

Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of my normal turn?

I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.

I would interpret it as being the next turn, whether that's a normal turn or an extra turn. If you got to choose which future turn to skip, you could just choose one far enough in the future that the game would be over before then

[emtzalex]

Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of my normal turn?

I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.

Lich says very simply "Skip a turn." But I think it's self-evident that a player can't choose to skip turn 100. Thus, Lich means something more like "the next time you would take a turn, skip it" or "skip the next turn you would take." Those two aren't exactly the same, as Jeebus points out. Does Lich create some kind of token that burns the next turn you would take, or does Lich look forward, and immediately zap the next turn you are currently scheduled to take (meaning that, if you played a Lich then a Voyage, you would take your Voyage turn, then your Lich turn). Here is why I think it's the first:

With the vast majority of non-Duration Action cards, everything that they are going to do happens while the card is being resolved (and before you can do anything else). But there are a small number that do things later: Merchant and Scheme immediately come to mind. They create a kind of effect token that does something later on. I think the best reading of Lich is that it does the same (and, indeed, that's how it is implemented online, giving you a little Lich icon like you would have if under the influence of Haunted Woods). The main difference is that Lich won't be in play when that token has its effect.

I'd also note that Lich has a nice synergy with Highwayman and other similar Duration attacks--while your opponent gets 2 turns, they are both turns weakened by your Attack.

[Jeebus]

Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of my normal turn?

I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.

I would interpret it as being the next turn, whether that's a normal turn or an extra turn. If you got to choose which future turn to skip, you could just choose one far enough in the future that the game would be over before then

Yes, I wrote wrong. The question is about several extra turns coming up next.

[grrgrrgrr]

I think the reason they didn't go for the Duration route with Lich is because it would maybe be unclear that the start-turn effects of Durations would pass to the tun thereafter. And it's easy enough to remember that you have to skip next turn.

[mxdata]

I'd also note that Lich has a nice synergy with Highwayman and other similar Duration attacks--while your opponent gets 2 turns, they are both turns weakened by your Attack.

Oh, wow, that's something that hadn't even occurred to me. So that's a significant difference between Lich as it is and a hypothetical card that just said "You can't play any cards or buy anything on your next turn" (I wonder if this will be specifically mentioned in the rulebook's FAQ)

[mxdata]

Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of my normal turn?

I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.

I would interpret it as being the next turn, whether that's a normal turn or an extra turn. If you got to choose which future turn to skip, you could just choose one far enough in the future that the game would be over before then

Yes, I wrote wrong. The question is about several extra turns coming up next.

Right, I get that, but why would there be a difference between extra turns and regular turns for this?

[faust]

I now had 3 Wizard games. Each of them was 4/3 vs 5/2. Each of them was decided by getting access to Student. This seems like a major flaw to me. And it's a shame, because it could have easily been avoided: Just change Student so the player to your left gets to decide whether to rotate the pile.

The player to your left probably doesn't want you to have first shot at whatever the next card is, so they'll say no. And the pile will never be rotated. Sounds bad!

You can buy Student with your $5 hand, or you can just wait until they rotate the pile for you. It's not perfect, but it mostly works out.

Well I disagree. If you're playing a Student, chances are you won't reach $4 that turn, especially in the early game, so it's safe to rotate.

And you could wait until they rotate the pile - um, why would they? I guess you could also wait for them to Ambassador you a Province while you're at it.

[Jeebus]

Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of my normal turn?

I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.

I would interpret it as being the next turn, whether that's a normal turn or an extra turn. If you got to choose which future turn to skip, you could just choose one far enough in the future that the game would be over before then

Yes, I wrote wrong. The question is about several extra turns coming up next.

Right, I get that, but why would there be a difference between extra turns and regular turns for this?

If you have several extra turns coming up, you choose which to do next. (It's been like that since Possession and Outpost.) But they all come before your next regular turn.

Like I wrote in the beginning of this thread:

With Lich, you should be able to choose which turn to skip if you have several coming up, like one from Voyage and one from Outpost for instance. I mean, you can always choose which turn to take next, and I guess that's the turn you will skip.

[GendoIkari]

Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of my normal turn?

I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.

I would interpret it as being the next turn, whether that's a normal turn or an extra turn. If you got to choose which future turn to skip, you could just choose one far enough in the future that the game would be over before then

Yes, I wrote wrong. The question is about several extra turns coming up next.

Right, I get that, but why would there be a difference between extra turns and regular turns for this?

If you have several extra turns coming up, you choose which to do next. (It's been like that since Possession and Outpost.) But they all come before your next regular turn.

Like I wrote in the beginning of this thread:

With Lich, you should be able to choose which turn to skip if you have several coming up, like one from Voyage and one from Outpost for instance. I mean, you can always choose which turn to take next, and I guess that's the turn you will skip.

Though except for possible weird stuff with playing cards while it isn't your turn, you're never in a position to choose between starting your extra turn or your normal turn anyway. Extra turns are always generated to happen after the current turn, which is already yours; at the same time your next regular turn would start.

[mxdata]

Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of my normal turn?

I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.

I would interpret it as being the next turn, whether that's a normal turn or an extra turn. If you got to choose which future turn to skip, you could just choose one far enough in the future that the game would be over before then

Yes, I wrote wrong. The question is about several extra turns coming up next.

Right, I get that, but why would there be a difference between extra turns and regular turns for this?

If you have several extra turns coming up, you choose which to do next. (It's been like that since Possession and Outpost.) But they all come before your next regular turn.

Like I wrote in the beginning of this thread:

With Lich, you should be able to choose which turn to skip if you have several coming up, like one from Voyage and one from Outpost for instance. I mean, you can always choose which turn to take next, and I guess that's the turn you will skip.

Oh, okay, I misunderstood you. So we're actually in agreement that it's the turn that comes immediately after your current turn. Sorry about the misunderstanding

[Jeebus]

There's some misunderstandings of my question, probably because I wrote wrong at first. The question has nothing to do with your next regular turn. I have since corrected what I wrote. Here it is again:

Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Outpost, then Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of the Outpost turn?

This assumes that you can choose which extra turn to skip, which I think must be right since you can choose which extra turn to do next.

[emtzalex]

Though except for possible weird stuff with playing cards while it isn't your turn, you're never in a position to choose between starting your extra turn or your normal turn anyway. Extra turns are always generated to happen after the current turn, which is already yours; at the same time your next regular turn would start.

Even then, I don't think you'd be in the position to choose your regular turn. Even if you played an Outpost or Voyage on your opponent's turn (which [I believe] is possible with a Reaction [like Caravan Guard], played using Way of the Mouse, which plays Vassal, which then discards one of them and plays it) in a 3+ player game (so the previous turn wasn't yours), you would still have take your bonus turn(s) first, since they say "...take an extra turn after this one..." You'd still only ever be choosing from among bonus turns that all come after a certain regular turn.

Although, if you played Outpost that way, you would already have your 5 card hand, with which you would play your extra Outpost turn, and the "next hand" for which "you only draw 3 cards" would technically be for your regular turn (I believe).

There's some misunderstandings of my question, probably because I wrote wrong at first. The question has nothing to do with your next regular turn. I have since corrected what I wrote. Here it is again:

Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Outpost, then Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of the Outpost turn?

This assumes that you can choose which extra turn to skip, which I think must be right since you can choose which extra turn to do next.

I think that's right (technically, I think you choose which turn to take next, and then that turn gets skipped by Lich). In my previous post I analogized it to Merchant or Scheme, which are action cards that do something later than when they are finished resolving (in other words, you can play the card, do other things, then get the impact of the card's effect).

You could think of them as creating what I called effect tokens. Each play of Merchant creates an effect token which, if you play a Silver for the first time later that turn, generate +$1. Each play of Scheme creates an effect token which, when you discard a card from play, allows you to topdeck it.*

I think the most reasonable understanding of Lich is that it creates an effect token which, the next time you would take a turn, you instead skip that turn.



* I think this means that if you set aside a Scheme with Prince, you could play Highwayman every turn, by playing triggering Prince first (thus playing Scheme), then triggering Highwayman, using Scheme to topdeck it, and then draw it as one of your 3 cards.

[pubby]

Merchant Camp seems good in some rushes, like gardens or duke. I played a Merchant Camp + Gardens + Workshop and it was nice.

[ems57fcva]

This may seem like a nitpick, but for a software engineer like me, this stuff is reuse and not recursion.  A software recursion is where a function calls itself as part of its own execution.  The equivalent in Dominion would be a card that is something like "+1 card; you may spend a favor to play this card again; discard a card".  Note that the card plays itself as part of resolving itself.  Putting it onto your deck during clean-up (which occurs after the card has been resolved) is very different.

For the instructions stated above, suppose that you have 2 favors available.  You would first draw a card, then spend a favor to start playing the card over.  So you would then draw another card, and could then spend another favor to start playing the card a 3rd time.  So you draw yet another card.  Now you are out of favors (or if you had more favors you could choose to stop here), and so do not start playing the card again.  Now you discard a card to resolve the 3rd playing.  Then you discard another card to finish the second playing.  And finally you discard another card to finish resolving the card.  So you drew 3 cards while spending 2 favors, and then discarded 3 cards.

The overall mechanic is "Do X; under condition Y play this card again; do Z".  X or Z may be nothing.  Y must be something that will cease to be true at some point.  Using favors is appropriate to Allies, but it could also be coffers, villagers, discarding or trashing a card in hand, etc (as long as whatever Y uses is not being added to while the card is being played).  The important thing is that you are playing the card itself multiple times.  Think of it as being like Vassal except that it plays itself and not another card.

Beyond that, I am impressed by Allies.  The favor mechanism moderates the game-modifying effects of the Allies.  I like it better than what I have seen in the other recent expansions (but I will admit that I only have Nocturne and none of the other post-Dark-Ages sets).

Lich is a strange card that will either be very liked or very hated.  I for one feel that it has to stay out until it is no longer in force.  Whether this makes it a Duration is a matter of what becomes of the Duration cards.  If a Duration card that was played in the same turn as the Lich has its duration effect take hold on the next turn that you play, then Lich cannot be a duration itself but should still stay out until it is no longer in effect.

[Gubump]

This may seem like a nitpick, but for a software engineer like me, this stuff is reuse and not recursion.  A software recursion is where a function calls itself as part of its own execution.

As a fellow software engineer, I'm glad I'm not the only one irked by the misuse of the word.

[mxdata]

It's interesting to me that the gaining part of Lich's on-trash effect is mandatory rather than optional. Depending on what's in the trash, there would be many situations where you'd probably prefer not to gain from the trash (a game I just played there were only Estates and Coppers in the trash, for example). But also, it seems like it would be really interesting with Knights!  (I wonder if one of the recommended sets will combine the Wizards and Knights)

[GendoIkari]

As a fellow software engineer, I don't understand the wording complaint. Even the complaint itself starts with "A software recursion is where...". But the thread title doesn't say anything about software recursion. It's like if the thread title said that the preview was about force, and the cards had abilities that forced you to do stuff, and someone replied saying "bad title, because in physics, a force is a push or pull upon an object resulting from the object's interaction with another object".

Recursion doesn't have to be used in the context of computer science or programming, even though it often is used in that context. Here, the meaning was clear enough; these are cards that have abilities which play make the card recur; or happen again each turn. Sure perhaps "recurring cards" would be more technically accurate than "recursion", but I don't see the actual problem here.

Also, for a fun time, Google "recursion".

[pubby]

This may seem like a nitpick, but for a software engineer like me, this stuff is reuse and not recursion.  A software recursion is where a function calls itself as part of its own execution.  The equivalent in Dominion would be a card that is something like "+1 card; you may spend a favor to play this card again; discard a card".  Note that the card plays itself as part of resolving itself.  Putting it onto your deck during clean-up (which occurs after the card has been resolved) is very different.

Don't worry guys preview #5 introduces the y combinator

[Davio]

Recursion: noun, see recursion

[Jeebus]

When I saw the title of this preview, I thought that Donald had finally gone bonkos. "Recursion" as a term is usually used in programming, and Donald is/was a programmer, so that's what I thought of. But I'm glad I was wrong!