Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: Donald X. on March 03, 2022, 03:00:12 am
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Recursion is a smaller sub-theme of the set. Ways to get a card back somehow. First, it's another split pile, the Wizards:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946677362215518218/948849338443001896/allies_THU1.png?width=515&height=782)
Student goes on top of your deck when it trashes a Copper; you can play it multiple times in the same turn. And hey, it's another Liaison. Conjurer can keep going to your hand turn after turn, you just need to keep playing it. And Lich comes back when you try to trash it, like a Fortress only not to your hand. Also Lich can uh skip your turn? Well maybe you aren't getting another turn anyway. Sorcerer meanwhile is the counterpart to Sorceress; it makes them play the guessing game instead of you.
Two more recursive cards:
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946677362215518218/948849410748600330/allies_THU2.png)
Merchant Camp is a village you can have in your starting hand for the rest of the game. It doesn't draw a card, but you can't have everything. Highwayman is the Duration draw card that you can play every turn - draw your deck, and at the end you'll find the Highwayman.
Here are two more Ally cards again; things to try with your Students.
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/946677362215518218/948849474292293682/allies_THU3.png)
Island Folk lets you take extra turns; maybe that's worth getting some Underlings for. Order of Masons is a novel one: it lets you keep cards out of a shuffle.
Again, cards can be tried out almost immediately at https://dominion.games/.
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Those Wizards are breaking my brain. They feel way overpowered, but I'm sure that impression will turn out to be wrong, or it would never have made it past play-testing. How does Lich interact with cards that give you another turn? For example, if you play a Lich and a Journey in the same turn, do they just cancel each other out? Also, how does skipping a turn work mechanically? For example, I play Lich on my turn. At the end of my turn, I discard my cards and draw 5 cards, then my opponent plays a turn. After their turn, do I discard my 5 cards and draw a new hand, then they play, or does play completely bypass me?
Highwayman would *not* play very well with Capitalism I think
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For example, I play Lich on my turn. At the end of my turn, I discard my cards and draw 5 cards, then my opponent plays a turn. After their turn, do I discard my 5 cards and draw a new hand, then they play, or does play completely bypass me?
discarding your hand & drawing a new one is part of your turn, so if you skip the turn, you also skip that.
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Oh, I see, Lich is like a backwards Tactician.
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Nice! I like how Sorcerer is inverted Sorceress; instead of you, your opponents guess. Also nice that it can hit at most once unless you can mess with their deck in between.
It's also nice to see new cards that kind of complement old ones. Lich is a this-turn Tactician, Highwayman is a Treasure-Enchantress.
PPE: As AJD said :)
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Sorcerer looks way, and I mean, way better than Sorceress.
Also, Highwayman is an example of a Duration you can play each turn. I'm wondering, is Seaside 2E also getting these kinds of Durations?
And if you throne Highwayman, the throner doesn't get discarded at the start of the turn, right?
Anyway, kudos to the high amount of split piles. Also good that this expansion seems to be limiting to 2 new "core set-exclusive" mechanics. I mean, Nocturne was bloated with these types of things and ended up being a little underwhelming because of that.
EDIT: This split pile seems almost nonexistent on internal synergy, unlike the piles we have seen before. It's just a bunch of limited cards that can be extraordinarily powerful under the right circumstances. So the power discrepancy makes sense.
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Sorcerer looks way, and I mean, way better than Sorceress.
Really? I thought it was the other way around. You can set up Sorceress for a guaranteed hit. You can curse multiple times a turn with Sorceress. Neither of these is possible with Sorcerer. True, the base chance to curse is probably a bit higher on Sorcerer, but Sorceress has a way higher ceiling.
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Note to self: Don't play Possession if player to left played Lich last turn.
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Note to self: Don't play Possession if player to left played Lich last turn.
That said, probably don't gain Lich if your opponent has Possession.
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Does a skipped turn still count towards the turn count for tiebreakers? I'm guessing the answer is yes since extra turns don't increase your turn number
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Just played a game with Wizards. They're fun, but it seems quite problematic that Student is a trasher that you can lock other players out of getting once you have it. If there is no other trashing, it's basically a mandatory opener, even on 5/2.
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Note to self: Don't play Possession if player to left played Lich last turn.
That said, probably don't gain Lich if your opponent has Possession.
That said, probably don't play with Possession.
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Sorcerer looks way, and I mean, way better than Sorceress.
Really? I thought it was the other way around. You can set up Sorceress for a guaranteed hit. You can curse multiple times a turn with Sorceress. Neither of these is possible with Sorcerer. True, the base chance to curse is probably a bit higher on Sorcerer, but Sorceress has a way higher ceiling.
Sorceress is frustratingly bad without this setting up. Sibyl obviously exists as a setup card, but that card is rare and expansive. I guess a Sorceress is just a card that needs (specific) support to be good. And it makes literally any card that can inspect, setup or rearrange much better; it's probably godly with Wandering Minstrel.
And I completely overlooked the fact that Sorcerer works only once at most per turn. That indeed holds it back severely and makes it likely worse than Sorceress.
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What happens, when Highwayman and Enchantress are in play and someone plays Crown (or any +$ Action card with Capitalism)?
And another edge case: Assuming Highwayman is in play and I did not play any Treasure cards, but +$ Action cards like Festival, buy Capitalism in my turn and then return to my Action phase by buying a Villa. Will the next Treasure or +$ Action card I play in the same turn do nothing or is Highwayman without effect, because that card would not be the first Treasure card in my turn?
Does “does nothing” also mean, that Adventure tokens have no effect?
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What happens, when Highwayman and Enchantress are in play and someone plays Crown (or any Action card with +$ with Capitalism)?
Since you decide the order of execution of simultaneous effects, they may become "nothing" or "+1 card +1 action". That's my guess.
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And another edge case: Assuming Highwayman is in play and I did not play any Treasure cards, but +$ Action cards like Festival, buy Capitalism in my turn and then return to my Action phase by buying a Villa. Will the next Treasure or +$ Action card I play in the same turn do nothing or is Highwayman without effect, because that card would not be the first Treasure card in my turn?
I see what you mean. I deleted my previous answer. You have played an Action card (like Festival), but now it's (also) a Treasure card. Hmm. I'm pretty sure it doesn't count as the "first Treasure you play", because it wasn't a Treasure when you played it. I think there's a precedent for this, but I'll have to look for it. But good question.
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I also wonder about how Highwayman affects Treasures.
What does "does nothing" mean? I think this text is a bit too short. Is it like Enchantress?: the first time each other player plays a Treasure each turn, they do nothing instead of following its instructions.
Or does it literally mean "does nothing", so not even under-the-line stuff?
Is it timed exactly like Enchantress, so you get to choose which if both have been played?
How about Envious? Now it matters how this is timed. Is it timed like Enchantress and/or Highwayman? (You could choose to get $1 instead of nothing from your Silver/Gold.)
This can also be asked about Coppersmith actually. If it has the same timing, you could apply Coppersmith first and get $2, and Highwayman would fail.
EDIT: Or, are Envious and Coppersmith "shape-shifting" the Treasures, so that the Treasures' abilities are actually changed? Then Highwayman would always override them ... if it's timed like Enchantress.
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With Lich, you should be able to choose which turn to skip if you have several coming up, like one from Voyage and one from Outpost for instance. I mean, you can always choose which turn to take next, and I guess that's the turn you will skip.
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And another edge case: Assuming Highwayman is in play and I did not play any Treasure cards, but +$ Action cards like Festival, buy Capitalism in my turn and then return to my Action phase by buying a Villa. Will the next Treasure or +$ Action card I play in the same turn do nothing or is Highwayman without effect, because that card would not be the first Treasure card in my turn?
I see what you mean. I deleted my previous answer. You have played an Action card (like Festival), but now it's (also) a Treasure card. Hmm. I'm pretty sure it doesn't count as the "first Treasure you play", because it wasn't a Treasure when you played it. I think there's a precedent for this, but I'll have to look for it. But good question.
We probably have to go back to the previuos, "shape-shifting" version of Band of Misfits. When playing BoM-as-Treasure Map, it was ruled that Treasure Map only cares that you trashed a Treasure Map, not what the card is now. This was even before Treasure Map's text changed from present to past tense.
Also, gaining BoM and playing it with Innovation could give it other types. But cards like Battlefield, Guildhall and Black Cat only care about what the BoM was when you gained it, not what it is when you're resolving Battlefield/Guildhall/Black Cat.
Again, this applied to the old BoM, not the current one.
Pretty strong evidence that you can't dodge the Highwayman with Capitalism and Villa.
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Does a skipped turn still count towards the turn count for tiebreakers? I'm guessing the answer is yes since extra turns don't increase your turn number
Also, does the skipped turn still count as your "next turn" for effects from Durations etc.? Guess not.
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If you play 2 Liches in the same turn, do you skip your next two turns, or just your next one?
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Am I missing something? I’m surprised nobody has commented on Lich’s below the line text wording. Shouldn’t it say “when you would trash this, discard it instead” or “when you trash this, put it in your discard pile” (I prefer this one—closer to Fortress wording) instead of “when you trash this, discard it”? I didn’t think you could “discard” anything from the trash to put into your discard pile—come to think of it, though, there’s no other card that tries to discard from the trash, so maybe this is something new that works differently (i.e., it has always been possible to discard from the trash, and it’s just never been done before).
Edit: added a few words
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If you play 2 Liches in the same turn, do you skip your next two turns, or just your next one?
I believe the ruling is that skipped turns are cumulative, so playing two Liches will skip your next two turns.
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If you play 2 Liches in the same turn, do you skip your next two turns, or just your next one?
I believe the ruling is that skipped turns are cumulative, so playing two Liches will skip your next two turns.
King's Court - King's Court - Lich - Lich - Lich
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If Lich is skipping your next turn, shouldn't it be a duration card?
But if it's skipping the rest of this turn, giving you actions is pointless.
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If you play 2 Liches in the same turn, do you skip your next two turns, or just your next one?
I believe the ruling is that skipped turns are cumulative, so playing two Liches will skip your next two turns.
Where is that ruling from?
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If Lich is skipping your next turn, shouldn't it be a duration card?
It does not stay out, so no.
If it doesn't stay out, then how do you remember to skip your turn? Is there a "skip my turn" token you take instead?
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I guess you need stuff to help you remember fine details such as "getting +$1 at your next turn". But skipping a turn is so big that you don't really need anything to help.
If you somehow played King's Court - King's Court - Lich - Lich - Lich, then you don't really need to remember to skip 9 turns, basically you grab all the points you can and if you still can't guarantee a win you probably already lost.
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If Lich is skipping your next turn, shouldn't it be a duration card?
It does not stay out, so no.
Note that Outpost would not have to stay out, but as you cannot play a Outpost during your Outpost turn, Outpost be a Duration is actually a mild buff (no risk to draw one dead card from your deck).
Same with Lich (but the other way around). If it stayed out it would be significantly weaker.
I think the main issue why Lich isn't a Duration is the weird rules implications that would have. If Lich is a Duration, that would imply that it "does something" on the turn you are skipping. But then are you really skipping that turn? And why would Duration-Lich activate on the skipped turn, but not other Durations?
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Or does it literally mean "does nothing", so not even under-the-line stuff?
And does a Silver which “does nothing” trigger Sauna and Merchant?
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I now had 3 Wizard games. Each of them was 4/3 vs 5/2. Each of them was decided by getting access to Student. This seems like a major flaw to me. And it's a shame, because it could have easily been avoided: Just change Student so the player to your left gets to decide whether to rotate the pile.
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Or does it literally mean "does nothing", so not even under-the-line stuff?
And does a Silver which “does nothing” trigger Sauna and Merchant?
Maybe the easiest way to reason about Highwayman is that for any first card which has the type "Treasure" when it is played, the card text is essentially blank, but it still has its name and all its types.
So a Silver which does nothing could still be played, but it gives no $0 and Merchant gets its +$1.
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So does Lich cause you to skip the rest of your current turn or does it wipe out the next one if you play just one?
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If Lich is skipping your next turn, shouldn't it be a duration card?
It does not stay out, so no.
Note that Outpost would not have to stay out, but as you cannot play a Outpost during your Outpost turn, Outpost be a Duration is actually a mild buff (no risk to draw one dead card from your deck).
Same with Lich (but the other way around). If it stayed out it would be significantly weaker.
I think the main issue why Lich isn't a Duration is the weird rules implications that would have. If Lich is a Duration, that would imply that it "does something" on the turn you are skipping. But then are you really skipping that turn? And why would Duration-Lich activate on the skipped turn, but not other Durations?
I will likely end up leaving Lich out as a reminder to skip, pretending it says the equivalent of "Set this card aside. On your next turn, discard it and do nothing else." So there is possibly some edge case where my discard pile won't contain exactly what it should until my next turn, but it probably won't break the game.
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If you play 2 Liches in the same turn, do you skip your next two turns, or just your next one?
I believe the ruling is that skipped turns are cumulative, so playing two Liches will skip your next two turns.
Where is that ruling from?
Donald X. has stated it on the discord (https://discord.com/channels/212660788786102272/890927866538238012/948860629932978226 (https://discord.com/channels/212660788786102272/890927866538238012/948860629932978226))
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So does Lich cause you to skip the rest of your current turn or does it wipe out the next one if you play just one?
It skips a turn, which, if we're being pedantic does not necessarily have to mean the next turn, maybe you can choose to skip the turn after the next turn? :P
But a turn starts with resolving effects from any previous turn (Durations and/or other start of turn effects) and ends with clean-up where you draw your next hand.
So if you play this, you finish your current turn, discard and draw a new hand and just wait until your opponent finishes 2 turns and then it's your turn again.
Think of it like a reverse Tactician, with Tactician you basically skip your current turn to get a double turn next turn.
With Lich it's the opposite, you get a double turn now, that's what the +6 cards and +2 actions are for. Say you start your turn with 5 cards and 1 action as usual and play this, now you have 10 cards and 2 actions, hey that's double what you started with!
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If you play 2 Liches in the same turn, do you skip your next two turns, or just your next one?
I believe the ruling is that skipped turns are cumulative, so playing two Liches will skip your next two turns.
King's Court - King's Court - Lich - Lich - Lich
Combo for when you have to go make a phone call but don't want to interrupt the game
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I see Allies continues the hidden subtheme of "create a bunch of new rules questions that make the original Band of Misfits look like Smithy".
*Edit* Not a complaint; I think as long as we get clear and well-defined rules that explain these things; there's nothing wrong with having to learn new rules to interpret card text correctly.
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Just played a game with Wizards. They're fun, but it seems quite problematic that Student is a trasher that you can lock other players out of getting once you have it. If there is no other trashing, it's basically a mandatory opener, even on 5/2.
Not locked out; they can always just buy their way through the pile ;-)
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Or does it literally mean "does nothing", so not even under-the-line stuff?
And does a Silver which “does nothing” trigger Sauna and Merchant?
I don't see why it wouldn't. When you play a Silver after Sauna or Merchant, it's not the Silver itself that's trashing or giving you an extra $1, it's the Sauna/Merchant doing that. Those cards are looking for a Silver being played, and while the Silver itself does nothing, it's still a card that's called "Silver"
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If Lich is skipping your next turn, shouldn't it be a duration card?
It does not stay out, so no.
This way, you get to skip a turn every turn, not just every other turn.
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Or does it literally mean "does nothing", so not even under-the-line stuff?
And does a Silver which “does nothing” trigger Sauna and Merchant?
I don't see why it wouldn't. When you play a Silver after Sauna or Merchant, it's not the Silver itself that's trashing or giving you an extra $1, it's the Sauna/Merchant doing that. Those cards are looking for a Silver being played, and while the Silver itself does nothing, it's still a card that's called "Silver"
Can confirm that the online previews work this way.
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Those Wizards are breaking my brain. They feel way overpowered, but I'm sure that impression will turn out to be wrong, or it would never have made it past play-testing.
I don't see it.
Student seems to be an average power level trasher, Conjurer is far from the best Workshop variant, Sorcerer is not that impressive in multiplayer and Lich is (without cards that grant extra turns) like Tactician. Worse as Tactician shines with virtual money, better as the effect is immediate and as there are endgame shennanigans.
And TfB shenanigans.
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If you play 2 Liches in the same turn, do you skip your next two turns, or just your next one?
I believe the ruling is that skipped turns are cumulative, so playing two Liches will skip your next two turns.
Where is that ruling from?
Donald X. has stated it on the discord (https://discord.com/channels/212660788786102272/890927866538238012/948860629932978226 (https://discord.com/channels/212660788786102272/890927866538238012/948860629932978226))
Makes sense. Extra turns are cumulative with Possession and Voyage, and Outpost has the specific wording it does specifically in order to prevent it from being cumulative, so it would be inconsistent if skipped turns weren't also cumulative
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Sorcerer looks way, and I mean, way better than Sorceress.
What makes you say this?
Sorceress pairs perfectly with Sibyl (the next Augur up the line), which lets you draw 4 cards and then topdeck one of them. Topdeck your card, play Sorceress, and voila!
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Sorcerer looks way, and I mean, way better than Sorceress.
What makes you say this?
Sorceress pairs perfectly with Sibyl (the next Augur up the line), which lets you draw 4 cards and then topdeck one of them. Topdeck your card, play Sorceress, and voila!
Sorcerer and Sorceress have an odd interaction when they're both in the same game. If my opponent plays their Sorcerer, I reveal my top card, and whether I guessed it correctly or not, I now know what it is. If I happened to have a Sorceress in my hand, then I'll know what to guess to play it (barring things like duration draw or another attack that messes up the top of my deck of course)
Also, Chariot Race has a nice synergy with Sorceress if you play Chariot Race first, but has an anti-synergy with Sorcerer (especially in two player games, in multiplayer only the player to your left gets that advantage)
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If it doesn't stay out, then how do you remember to skip your turn? Is there a "skip my turn" token you take instead?
How do you remember how many Coins, Actions and Buys you have in a wacky King's Court Kingdom?
I usually just repeat my running totals aloud after each card is played, while narrating my turn. I guess I'd have to constantly mutter to myself "1 skipped turn" while my opponents were playing.
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The artwork used by the online implentation for Highwayman's effect is really cool
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Just played a game with Wizards. They're fun, but it seems quite problematic that Student is a trasher that you can lock other players out of getting once you have it. If there is no other trashing, it's basically a mandatory opener, even on 5/2.
Not locked out; they can always just buy their way through the pile ;-)
Maybe it's me, but I don't think Student is all that overpowered. It trashes just a single card which is not that impressive, BM probably even beats BM+Student.
You have to trash Treasures to get its benefit, but in the early game Coppers are important to reach those critical $5 cards (oftentimes the critical cards are $5+), and Estates are not so you'd rather trash Estates if you can.
And besides trashing, it provides no other value, especially if the Ally isn't that useful.
The topdecking seems powerful, but when you start the game, you only have 10 cards, so say you bought any other trashing card, you'll play it every other turn anyway and increasingly often after you've started thinning.
So you are sacrificing a lot, and I do mean a lot of early game tempo if your strategy depends on Student, so your engine needs to be good enough to catch up.
I don't know if the "Silver test" is still a thing, but there will be many times where you wished it was a Silver. :)
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Just played a game with Wizards. They're fun, but it seems quite problematic that Student is a trasher that you can lock other players out of getting once you have it. If there is no other trashing, it's basically a mandatory opener, even on 5/2.
Not locked out; they can always just buy their way through the pile ;-)
Maybe it's me, but I don't think Student is all that overpowered. It trashes just a single card which is not that impressive, BM probably even beats BM+Student.
You have to trash Treasures to get its benefit, but in the early game Coppers are important to reach those critical $5 cards (oftentimes the critical cards are $5+), and Estates are not so you'd rather trash Estates if you can.
And besides trashing, it provides no other value, especially if the Ally isn't that useful.
The topdecking seems powerful, but when you start the game, you only have 10 cards, so say you bought any other trashing card, you'll play it every other turn anyway and increasingly often after you've started thinning.
So you are sacrificing a lot, and I do mean a lot of early game tempo if your strategy depends on Student, so your engine needs to be good enough to catch up.
I don't know if the "Silver test" is still a thing, but there will be many times where you wished it was a Silver. :)
I'm not sure if this is old meta, but comparing BM+X to BM isn't really a thing anymore; you never play BM+X anyway. Most games have engines. Engines want trashing. If there's no trashing other than Student, you're going to need Student.
The power level is probably comparable to Forager. Sure, there are better trashers, but most games won't have those.
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Just played a game with Wizards. They're fun, but it seems quite problematic that Student is a trasher that you can lock other players out of getting once you have it. If there is no other trashing, it's basically a mandatory opener, even on 5/2.
Not locked out; they can always just buy their way through the pile ;-)
Maybe it's me, but I don't think Student is all that overpowered. It trashes just a single card which is not that impressive, BM probably even beats BM+Student.
You have to trash Treasures to get its benefit, but in the early game Coppers are important to reach those critical $5 cards (oftentimes the critical cards are $5+), and Estates are not so you'd rather trash Estates if you can.
And besides trashing, it provides no other value, especially if the Ally isn't that useful.
The topdecking seems powerful, but when you start the game, you only have 10 cards, so say you bought any other trashing card, you'll play it every other turn anyway and increasingly often after you've started thinning.
So you are sacrificing a lot, and I do mean a lot of early game tempo if your strategy depends on Student, so your engine needs to be good enough to catch up.
I don't know if the "Silver test" is still a thing, but there will be many times where you wished it was a Silver. :)
I'm not sure if this is old meta, but comparing BM+X to BM isn't really a thing anymore; you never play BM+X anyway. Most games have engines. Engines want trashing. If there's no trashing other than Student, you're going to need Student.
The power level is probably comparable to Forager. Sure, there are better trashers, but most games won't have those.
Well there are engines in many shapes and sizes and what even is an engine?
I don't know what the meta is, but I do know the meta has a tendency to overvalue engines, since engines are cool and shiny and everybody wants to build them so you end up with 2 competing engines and 1 will win and you go "See? The engine won!" and then you don't notice that it took the engine 20+ turns to buy 4 Provinces. I've beaten many engines with just treasures and X because a key component was missing, such as +Buy (or another form of gain), which I think is more critical for engines than trashing.
I'm just saying that if Student is the only trashing, the engine payoff really has to be quite good to make it worth the investment.
The power level is probably comparable to Forager. Sure, there are better trashers, but most games won't have those.
Well Forager has +Buy, so that makes it a way better engine enabler. :)
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I'm not sure if this is old meta, but comparing BM+X to BM isn't really a thing anymore; you never play BM+X anyway.
Really? I sometimes play BM + Vault or BM + Cultist. Admittedly those games are getting rarer. But like Davio said, BM+X can beat an engine more times than most of us actually find out.
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I now had 3 Wizard games. Each of them was 4/3 vs 5/2. Each of them was decided by getting access to Student. This seems like a major flaw to me. And it's a shame, because it could have easily been avoided: Just change Student so the player to your left gets to decide whether to rotate the pile.
The player to your left probably doesn't want you to have first shot at whatever the next card is, so they'll say no. And the pile will never be rotated. Sounds bad!
You can buy Student with your $5 hand, or you can just wait until they rotate the pile for you. It's not perfect, but it mostly works out.
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Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Outpost, Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of
my normal turn the Outpost turn?
I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.
Edit: fixed.
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Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of my normal turn?
I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.
This seems to make Lich and Voyage a fairly powerful combo. Or Lich and Mission.
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Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of my normal turn?
I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.
I would interpret it as being the next turn, whether that's a normal turn or an extra turn. If you got to choose which future turn to skip, you could just choose one far enough in the future that the game would be over before then
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Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of my normal turn?
I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.
Lich says very simply "Skip a turn." But I think it's self-evident that a player can't choose to skip turn 100. Thus, Lich means something more like "the next time you would take a turn, skip it" or "skip the next turn you would take." Those two aren't exactly the same, as Jeebus points out. Does Lich create some kind of token that burns the next turn you would take, or does Lich look forward, and immediately zap the next turn you are currently scheduled to take (meaning that, if you played a Lich then a Voyage, you would take your Voyage turn, then your Lich turn). Here is why I think it's the first:
With the vast majority of non-Duration Action cards, everything that they are going to do happens while the card is being resolved (and before you can do anything else). But there are a small number that do things later: Merchant and Scheme immediately come to mind. They create a kind of effect token that does something later on. I think the best reading of Lich is that it does the same (and, indeed, that's how it is implemented online, giving you a little Lich icon like you would have if under the influence of Haunted Woods). The main difference is that Lich won't be in play when that token has its effect.
I'd also note that Lich has a nice synergy with Highwayman and other similar Duration attacks--while your opponent gets 2 turns, they are both turns weakened by your Attack.
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Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of my normal turn?
I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.
I would interpret it as being the next turn, whether that's a normal turn or an extra turn. If you got to choose which future turn to skip, you could just choose one far enough in the future that the game would be over before then
Yes, I wrote wrong. The question is about several extra turns coming up next.
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I think the reason they didn't go for the Duration route with Lich is because it would maybe be unclear that the start-turn effects of Durations would pass to the tun thereafter. And it's easy enough to remember that you have to skip next turn.
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I'd also note that Lich has a nice synergy with Highwayman and other similar Duration attacks--while your opponent gets 2 turns, they are both turns weakened by your Attack.
Oh, wow, that's something that hadn't even occurred to me. So that's a significant difference between Lich as it is and a hypothetical card that just said "You can't play any cards or buy anything on your next turn" (I wonder if this will be specifically mentioned in the rulebook's FAQ)
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Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of my normal turn?
I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.
I would interpret it as being the next turn, whether that's a normal turn or an extra turn. If you got to choose which future turn to skip, you could just choose one far enough in the future that the game would be over before then
Yes, I wrote wrong. The question is about several extra turns coming up next.
Right, I get that, but why would there be a difference between extra turns and regular turns for this?
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I now had 3 Wizard games. Each of them was 4/3 vs 5/2. Each of them was decided by getting access to Student. This seems like a major flaw to me. And it's a shame, because it could have easily been avoided: Just change Student so the player to your left gets to decide whether to rotate the pile.
The player to your left probably doesn't want you to have first shot at whatever the next card is, so they'll say no. And the pile will never be rotated. Sounds bad!
You can buy Student with your $5 hand, or you can just wait until they rotate the pile for you. It's not perfect, but it mostly works out.
Well I disagree. If you're playing a Student, chances are you won't reach $4 that turn, especially in the early game, so it's safe to rotate.
And you could wait until they rotate the pile - um, why would they? I guess you could also wait for them to Ambassador you a Province while you're at it.
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Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of my normal turn?
I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.
I would interpret it as being the next turn, whether that's a normal turn or an extra turn. If you got to choose which future turn to skip, you could just choose one far enough in the future that the game would be over before then
Yes, I wrote wrong. The question is about several extra turns coming up next.
Right, I get that, but why would there be a difference between extra turns and regular turns for this?
If you have several extra turns coming up, you choose which to do next. (It's been like that since Possession and Outpost.) But they all come before your next regular turn.
Like I wrote in the beginning of this thread:
With Lich, you should be able to choose which turn to skip if you have several coming up, like one from Voyage and one from Outpost for instance. I mean, you can always choose which turn to take next, and I guess that's the turn you will skip.
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Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of my normal turn?
I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.
I would interpret it as being the next turn, whether that's a normal turn or an extra turn. If you got to choose which future turn to skip, you could just choose one far enough in the future that the game would be over before then
Yes, I wrote wrong. The question is about several extra turns coming up next.
Right, I get that, but why would there be a difference between extra turns and regular turns for this?
If you have several extra turns coming up, you choose which to do next. (It's been like that since Possession and Outpost.) But they all come before your next regular turn.
Like I wrote in the beginning of this thread:
With Lich, you should be able to choose which turn to skip if you have several coming up, like one from Voyage and one from Outpost for instance. I mean, you can always choose which turn to take next, and I guess that's the turn you will skip.
Though except for possible weird stuff with playing cards while it isn't your turn, you're never in a position to choose between starting your extra turn or your normal turn anyway. Extra turns are always generated to happen after the current turn, which is already yours; at the same time your next regular turn would start.
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Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of my normal turn?
I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.
I would interpret it as being the next turn, whether that's a normal turn or an extra turn. If you got to choose which future turn to skip, you could just choose one far enough in the future that the game would be over before then
Yes, I wrote wrong. The question is about several extra turns coming up next.
Right, I get that, but why would there be a difference between extra turns and regular turns for this?
If you have several extra turns coming up, you choose which to do next. (It's been like that since Possession and Outpost.) But they all come before your next regular turn.
Like I wrote in the beginning of this thread:
With Lich, you should be able to choose which turn to skip if you have several coming up, like one from Voyage and one from Outpost for instance. I mean, you can always choose which turn to take next, and I guess that's the turn you will skip.
Oh, okay, I misunderstood you. So we're actually in agreement that it's the turn that comes immediately after your current turn. Sorry about the misunderstanding
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There's some misunderstandings of my question, probably because I wrote wrong at first. The question has nothing to do with your next regular turn. I have since corrected what I wrote. Here it is again:
Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Outpost, then Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of the Outpost turn?
This assumes that you can choose which extra turn to skip, which I think must be right since you can choose which extra turn to do next.
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Though except for possible weird stuff with playing cards while it isn't your turn, you're never in a position to choose between starting your extra turn or your normal turn anyway. Extra turns are always generated to happen after the current turn, which is already yours; at the same time your next regular turn would start.
Even then, I don't think you'd be in the position to choose your regular turn. Even if you played an Outpost or Voyage on your opponent's turn (which [I believe] is possible with a Reaction [like Caravan Guard], played using Way of the Mouse, which plays Vassal, which then discards one of them and plays it) in a 3+ player game (so the previous turn wasn't yours), you would still have take your bonus turn(s) first, since they say "...take an extra turn after this one..." You'd still only ever be choosing from among bonus turns that all come after a certain regular turn.
Although, if you played Outpost that way, you would already have your 5 card hand, with which you would play your extra Outpost turn, and the "next hand" for which "you only draw 3 cards" would technically be for your regular turn (I believe).
There's some misunderstandings of my question, probably because I wrote wrong at first. The question has nothing to do with your next regular turn. I have since corrected what I wrote. Here it is again:
Another Lich question: Do you also skip turns that aren't set up yet when you play Lich? So if I play Outpost, then Lich and then Voyage, can I choose to skip the Voyage turn instead of the Outpost turn?
This assumes that you can choose which extra turn to skip, which I think must be right since you can choose which extra turn to do next.
I think that's right (technically, I think you choose which turn to take next, and then that turn gets skipped by Lich). In my previous post I analogized it to Merchant or Scheme, which are action cards that do something later than when they are finished resolving (in other words, you can play the card, do other things, then get the impact of the card's effect).
You could think of them as creating what I called effect tokens. Each play of Merchant creates an effect token which, if you play a Silver for the first time later that turn, generate +$1. Each play of Scheme creates an effect token which, when you discard a card from play, allows you to topdeck it.*
I think the most reasonable understanding of Lich is that it creates an effect token which, the next time you would take a turn, you instead skip that turn.
* I think this means that if you set aside a Scheme with Prince, you could play Highwayman every turn, by playing triggering Prince first (thus playing Scheme), then triggering Highwayman, using Scheme to topdeck it, and then draw it as one of your 3 cards.
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Merchant Camp seems good in some rushes, like gardens or duke. I played a Merchant Camp + Gardens + Workshop and it was nice.
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This may seem like a nitpick, but for a software engineer like me, this stuff is reuse and not recursion. A software recursion is where a function calls itself as part of its own execution. The equivalent in Dominion would be a card that is something like "+1 card; you may spend a favor to play this card again; discard a card". Note that the card plays itself as part of resolving itself. Putting it onto your deck during clean-up (which occurs after the card has been resolved) is very different.
For the instructions stated above, suppose that you have 2 favors available. You would first draw a card, then spend a favor to start playing the card over. So you would then draw another card, and could then spend another favor to start playing the card a 3rd time. So you draw yet another card. Now you are out of favors (or if you had more favors you could choose to stop here), and so do not start playing the card again. Now you discard a card to resolve the 3rd playing. Then you discard another card to finish the second playing. And finally you discard another card to finish resolving the card. So you drew 3 cards while spending 2 favors, and then discarded 3 cards.
The overall mechanic is "Do X; under condition Y play this card again; do Z". X or Z may be nothing. Y must be something that will cease to be true at some point. Using favors is appropriate to Allies, but it could also be coffers, villagers, discarding or trashing a card in hand, etc (as long as whatever Y uses is not being added to while the card is being played). The important thing is that you are playing the card itself multiple times. Think of it as being like Vassal except that it plays itself and not another card.
Beyond that, I am impressed by Allies. The favor mechanism moderates the game-modifying effects of the Allies. I like it better than what I have seen in the other recent expansions (but I will admit that I only have Nocturne and none of the other post-Dark-Ages sets).
Lich is a strange card that will either be very liked or very hated. I for one feel that it has to stay out until it is no longer in force. Whether this makes it a Duration is a matter of what becomes of the Duration cards. If a Duration card that was played in the same turn as the Lich has its duration effect take hold on the next turn that you play, then Lich cannot be a duration itself but should still stay out until it is no longer in effect.
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This may seem like a nitpick, but for a software engineer like me, this stuff is reuse and not recursion. A software recursion is where a function calls itself as part of its own execution.
As a fellow software engineer, I'm glad I'm not the only one irked by the misuse of the word.
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It's interesting to me that the gaining part of Lich's on-trash effect is mandatory rather than optional. Depending on what's in the trash, there would be many situations where you'd probably prefer not to gain from the trash (a game I just played there were only Estates and Coppers in the trash, for example). But also, it seems like it would be really interesting with Knights! (I wonder if one of the recommended sets will combine the Wizards and Knights)
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As a fellow software engineer, I don't understand the wording complaint. Even the complaint itself starts with "A software recursion is where...". But the thread title doesn't say anything about software recursion. It's like if the thread title said that the preview was about force, and the cards had abilities that forced you to do stuff, and someone replied saying "bad title, because in physics, a force is a push or pull upon an object resulting from the object's interaction with another object".
Recursion doesn't have to be used in the context of computer science or programming, even though it often is used in that context. Here, the meaning was clear enough; these are cards that have abilities which play make the card recur; or happen again each turn. Sure perhaps "recurring cards" would be more technically accurate than "recursion", but I don't see the actual problem here.
Also, for a fun time, Google "recursion".
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This may seem like a nitpick, but for a software engineer like me, this stuff is reuse and not recursion. A software recursion is where a function calls itself as part of its own execution. The equivalent in Dominion would be a card that is something like "+1 card; you may spend a favor to play this card again; discard a card". Note that the card plays itself as part of resolving itself. Putting it onto your deck during clean-up (which occurs after the card has been resolved) is very different.
Don't worry guys preview #5 introduces the y combinator
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Recursion: noun, see recursion
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When I saw the title of this preview, I thought that Donald had finally gone bonkos. "Recursion" as a term is usually used in programming, and Donald is/was a programmer, so that's what I thought of. But I'm glad I was wrong!
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I think that's right (technically, I think you choose which turn to take next, and then that turn gets skipped by Lich). In my previous post I analogized it to Merchant or Scheme, which are action cards that do something later than when they are finished resolving (in other words, you can play the card, do other things, then get the impact of the card's effect).
You could think of them as creating what I called effect tokens. Each play of Merchant creates an effect token which, if you play a Silver for the first time later that turn, generate +$1. Each play of Scheme creates an effect token which, when you discard a card from play, allows you to topdeck it.*
I think the most reasonable understanding of Lich is that it creates an effect token which, the next time you would take a turn, you instead skip that turn.
Yeah, how setting up a future ability works is not really a question, we've had that since Seaside, and then Possession and Scheme. (Technically, Bridge and Coppersmith do this too.) Even with Durations it's not the card that gives you the future ability (or a hypothetical token), it's just the fact that you played a card that says so. So the Duration could be trashed from play (with Bonfire or Procession v.1) and it would still give you the future ability.
But I see you agree with what I wrote (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21095.msg887710#msg887710):
I assume yes; Lich sets up a future "skip a turn" ability, and when you resolve it, you choose which turn to skip. When do you make that choice though? I guess it's in-between turns.
And previously: (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=21095.msg887594#msg887594)
With Lich, you should be able to choose which turn to skip if you have several coming up, like one from Voyage and one from Outpost for instance. I mean, you can always choose which turn to take next, and I guess that's the turn you will skip.
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* I think this means that if you set aside a Scheme with Prince, you could play Highwayman every turn, by playing triggering Prince first (thus playing Scheme), then triggering Highwayman, using Scheme to topdeck it, and then draw it as one of your 3 cards.
Yeah, that should work. This is the first time it's possible to trigger a "when you discard this from play" ability outside of Clean-up actually.
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Recursion also just means recurring things; a definition that I hear mtg players using all the time.
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As a fellow software engineer, I don't understand the wording complaint. Even the complaint itself starts with "A software recursion is where...". But the thread title doesn't say anything about software recursion. ...
Recursion doesn't have to be used in the context of computer science or programming, even though it often is used in that context. Here, the meaning was clear enough; these are cards that have abilities which play make the card recur; or happen again each turn. Sure perhaps "recurring cards" would be more technically accurate than "recursion", but I don't see the actual problem here.
You have a point there, and it is easy to say "Let Donald X. have his way. It's his game after all". But it would also be cool if there was a card that actually recursively reused itself while being resolved. So I have made the point. The one problem is that you need to be careful with it. For one, there are usually better ways than recursion to have an effect. Even my example could be "+1 card; spend any number of favors to draw that many cards and discard that many cards; discard a card". Same result, no recursion. And creating a card that is not too complex or powerful is another problem. But that is a neat puzzle all the same.
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Well, there goes my crazy prediction that Sorcerer would be a powerful curser that had the effect of removing the VP penalty.
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I've been posting my thoughts on all the previews (without having tested any of them), so here's day 4.
In day 2, we saw Herb Gatherer, which was weak but had a resource that you might miss out on if you didn't grab it right away. Student has a similar dynamic. As a trasher it seems mediocre. It only trashes one, decreases your handsize, the only additional benefit is the favor, if you trash a copper. Topdecking is nice I guess, but if the card is so mediocre I have to imagine topdecking same card is also mediocre. Nonetheless, sometimes you need a trasher (or the favors), and you don't want to miss out.
Conjurer is the workshop that keeps on workshopping. Good when workshop is good I guess. It doesn't synergize with other Wizards though.
Sorceror sounds familiar. Unlike Familiar, it sometimes misses, and doesn't stack. Good if your opponent foolishly skipped Student and there no other trashers.
Lich doesn't strike me as very good? Like Tactician, but less opportunity for weird workarounds. Okay, you can skip a Voyage turn, that's good. You can play it on your last turn, but well you spent $6 on this card and you're only playing it once? I suspect the true power house here is the bottom ability. Remodel into Province + Duchy and you keep the Lich to remodel again on the same turn? That's game winning in the right situation.
Merchant Camp, the village that keeps villaging. I'd get one for reliability, but to topdeck two each turn seems like it could make your deck less reliable, not more.
Highwayman kind of surprised me, because I thought the issue with attacks like these was that they really dragged the game down when stacked with Militia attacks. Well anyway, I think you get this more for the draw than for the attack. It's slightly better than Haunted Woods because you could theoretically play it every turn.
Island Folk... So, if Underling is a cantrip that gives you an extra turn every 5 plays, would it be good? Absolutely. I mean, even on a basic level, an extra turn is +5 cards +1 action +1 buy, that's really strong. In an engine, it's even better.
I take it you can't use Order of Masons during game setup? Hey, I would totally buy a single Underling to maintain two estates in exile. That seems competitive with trashing options. It may not work with engines that shuffle multiple times per turn though.
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I've been posting my thoughts on all the previews (without having tested any of them), so here's day 4.
In day 2, we saw Herb Gatherer, which was weak but had a resource that you might miss out on if you didn't grab it right away. Student has a similar dynamic. As a trasher it seems mediocre. It only trashes one, decreases your handsize, the only additional benefit is the favor, if you trash a copper. Topdecking is nice I guess, but if the card is so mediocre I have to imagine topdecking same card is also mediocre. Nonetheless, sometimes you need a trasher (or the favors), and you don't want to miss out.
Conjurer is the workshop that keeps on workshopping. Good when workshop is good I guess. It doesn't synergize with other Wizards though.
Sorceror sounds familiar. Unlike Familiar, it sometimes misses, and doesn't stack. Good if your opponent foolishly skipped Student and there no other trashers.
Lich doesn't strike me as very good? Like Tactician, but less opportunity for weird workarounds. Okay, you can skip a Voyage turn, that's good. You can play it on your last turn, but well you spent $6 on this card and you're only playing it once? I suspect the true power house here is the bottom ability. Remodel into Province + Duchy and you keep the Lich to remodel again on the same turn? That's game winning in the right situation.
Merchant Camp, the village that keeps villaging. I'd get one for reliability, but to topdeck two each turn seems like it could make your deck less reliable, not more.
Highwayman kind of surprised me, because I thought the issue with attacks like these was that they really dragged the game down when stacked with Militia attacks. Well anyway, I think you get this more for the draw than for the attack. It's slightly better than Haunted Woods because you could theoretically play it every turn.
Island Folk... So, if Underling is a cantrip that gives you an extra turn every 5 plays, would it be good? Absolutely. I mean, even on a basic level, an extra turn is +5 cards +1 action +1 buy, that's really strong. In an engine, it's even better.
I take it you can't use Order of Masons during game setup? Hey, I would totally buy a single Underling to maintain two estates in exile. That seems competitive with trashing options. It may not work with engines that shuffle multiple times per turn though.
Merchant Camp with the +1 Card token would be a real power house. Just one would net the same as Barracks + Key, and multiples would be increasingly strong
But I think you're overlooking something with Lich - it can only gain from the trash, so it's rare that it would let you gain a Duchy. In fact, in a lot of games, that would be a drawback. It's pretty frequent that the only stuff in the trash is junk. So, you'd end up junking your deck
On the other hand, if there is good stuff in the trash, it can be great. A fun combo would be buying it with a Watchtower in hand. Trash it with Watchtower, and it still ends up in the same place, plus you gain a bonus card costing up to $5 from the trash!
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In a game with TFB cards to trash lich to profitably, there's probably also going to be some other non-junk cards in the trash too.
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Fair point with the Lich, I was wondering why nobody seemed to be talking about what was obviously an overpowered ability. Gaining a card from the trash seems significantly worse. It's not even optional, so you might end up gaining a copper or estate. Still, having a thing to trash repeatedly can be good.
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I take it you can't use Order of Masons during game setup?
Correct, you can't. This expressively mentioned in the rulebook.
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Have we ever gotten a definitive answer on the question of whether below-the-line effects still happen with Treasures affected by Highwayman? I would think the answer is yes, since they're still "in play", but I can also see the argument that "does nothing" means they're effectively like a blank card
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Have we ever gotten a definitive answer on the question of whether below-the-line effects still happen with Treasures affected by Highwayman? I would think the answer is yes, since they're still "in play", but I can also see the argument that "does nothing" means they're effectively like a blank card
No, this is among the array of questions I'm saving for when the rulebook comes out.
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As with Enchantresses/Ways, the below-the-line effects of cards are not affected. So Quarry doesn't produce $1 when played as first Treasure under Highwayman, but it does reduce the cost of Action cards.
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Fair point with the Lich, I was wondering why nobody seemed to be talking about what was obviously an overpowered ability. Gaining a card from the trash seems significantly worse. It's not even optional, so you might end up gaining a copper or estate. Still, having a thing to trash repeatedly can be good.
Also, Lich is in a pile with an extreme efficient Copper trasher (Student). Depending on the Ally, you might want to bring back the Coppers to convert them into Favors.
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Fair point with the Lich, I was wondering why nobody seemed to be talking about what was obviously an overpowered ability. Gaining a card from the trash seems significantly worse. It's not even optional, so you might end up gaining a copper or estate. Still, having a thing to trash repeatedly can be good.
Also, Lich is in a pile with an extreme efficient Copper trasher (Student). Depending on the Ally, you might want to bring back the Coppers to convert them into Favors.
If there's any +buy, it would probably be more efficient to just buy Coppers for that
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Have we ever gotten a definitive answer on the question of whether below-the-line effects still happen with Treasures affected by Highwayman? I would think the answer is yes, since they're still "in play", but I can also see the argument that "does nothing" means they're effectively like a blank card
Looks like the answer is "yes", from the rulebook
This stops the Treasure from doing what it does when played, but doesn't stop abilities below a dividing line, like Capital's (from Empires). If the Treasure is also an Action, a Way (from Menagerie) can still be used on it, and Enchantress (from Empires) can still work on it; the player who played the Treasure decides which effect applies.
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I just realized, I think Lich is the first way to gain OGE and Hovel.
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I just realized, I think Lich is the first way to gain OGE and Hovel.
And also the first way to gain a Curse from the trash. Although that would only be useful in a few edge cases
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Lich overall makes this thread obsolete: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19037.msg772104#msg772104 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=19037.msg772104#msg772104)
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So now the only ununtrashable card would be vineyard now, right?