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Author Topic: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards  (Read 3307 times)

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emtzalex

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Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« on: November 26, 2021, 03:37:55 pm »
+4

For Week 24, I have chosen DunnoItAll's Heritage cards (from the Dominion: Subterfuge expansion). Heritage cards work like Heirlooms, but when a card with a Heritage is used, it replaces an Estate instead of a Copper.

Here are some examples:





The assignment is simple. Design a Kingdom card pile and a Heritage to go with it. Feel free to use any official or fan mechanics (including split piles, Traveller lines, etc.) and any kind and number of supporting cards or landscapes (although if you go overboard with either it will likely count against you in the simplicity category). Also, the Heritage cards themselves need not be Victory - Reaction cards like the two examples. Feel free to use Alt-VP or other dual types (including using fan mechanic types like Dawn or Kin cards). They don't technically even have to be Victory cards, but I think making them non-Victory cards should only be done with a lot of careful thought about the impact it would have.

My main judging criteria is whether I would be excited to see the design in a Kingdom. Important factors for me are:
  • balance -- is the card useful, but not overpowering (both in general and in a variety of Kingdoms)
  • playability -- the card is fun to play and works in more than one type of deck
  • simplicity -- this doesn't always mean fewer words; a card with lots of text that, once you understand it, can be easily and intuitively be played is better than one with four lines of text that is hard to understand
  • topicality -- the card (or cards) uses the mechanic in an interesting way
The deadline for submissions will be 21:00 UTC / 4:00 p.m. Eastern/Forum time on Friday, December 3, 2021.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2021, 05:05:57 pm by emtzalex »
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2021, 04:58:29 pm »
+2

The only rules issue I anticipate with these is how they interact with Shelters. Here is my off-the-cuff ruling:

If you are playing with 1 Kingdom card with a Heritage and Shelters, the Heritage replaces Overgrown Estate. If you are playing with more than 1 Kingdom card with a Heritage, you can't play with Shelters (and don't do the random check for them).

If you want to vary from this rule that is fine, just say so in your post. I don't think this will effect the card in the vast majority of cases, but I am putting it out there for those outliers where there might be an impact.

I will be judging based upon the universe of all official cards1 and your submission. Thus, the question of what happens if there are more than 3 Heritage cards in a game should have no bearing on this contest.



1 - Even if previews for Dominion: Allies start before this contest ends, I will not consider those official cards for the purpose of judging this.
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mxdata

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2021, 09:50:30 pm »
+1



The formatting was a bit wonky on the card generator, making the text way too small on Surveyer

Quote
Surveyer
Action - Victory
$4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Discard any number of Victory cards, revealed, for +$1 each.
-
1 VP
Heritage:Manor

Quote
Manor
Treasure - Victory - Heritage
$2
Worth $1 per Victory card in play
-
1 VP

Manor, on its own, is basically a mini-Harem, making it not very useful without support. It does change up the opening a bit, since you effectively have one Estate replaced with a Copper, you can get $3/$5, $4/$4, and $5/$3 openings. However, when you have Action - Victory or other Treasure - Victory cards, it can become much more valuable. Conveniently, it comes paired with an Action - Victory card which lets you discard other Victory cards for coin. And it's a cantrip, making it easy to play multiple copies, boosting Manor's value when you play it. Note that if you manage to get two copies (perhaps through another player's Manor being trashed, then your Treasurer gaining it from the trash), and you can play both in the same turn, the second one will be worth $1 more than the first, just as when playing multiple Banks. That would be a rare case, of course
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Mahowrath

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2021, 02:25:06 pm »
+2

Paranormal Investigator

Unmarked Graves


Quote
Paranormal Investigator - $3
Action

+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.
You may gain a cheaper card, for +1 Card per $1 less it costs.
-
Heritage: Unmarked Graves

Quote
Unmarked Graves - $4
Victory - Heritage

0VP
-
When you trash this, do this any number of times:
Discard a card with a type not yet discarded for this, to gain a Will-o'-Wisp from its pile onto your deck.

(will remove "from its pile" in the next UG version)
« Last Edit: November 28, 2021, 02:53:57 pm by Mahowrath »
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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2021, 02:26:06 pm »
+4



Quote
Rowboat $3 Action - Reaction
+1 Action
Reveal a card from your hand. For each type it has, +1 Card.
-
When you gain a card, if it isn't your turn, you may reveal this from your hand to trash that card

Dock $3 Heritage - Reaction - Duration
At the start of your next turn, +1 Card.
-
When something causes you to reveal this (using the word "reveal"), you may play it.

Some additional rules for the persnickety rules lawyer types:
When something instructs you to play a card that's not an action, treasure, or night card, follow the instructions on the card like you would an action, treasure or night card, including when it would be cleaned up (for duration cards).

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2021, 04:28:57 pm »
+1

Claim
Action/Heritage - $2
+1 Action
You may reveal an Action from your hand. The player to your left may reveal a copy of it. If they didn't, play it twice.

Historian
Action - $5
+3 Cards
You may discard an Action for +1 Action
(Heritage: Claim)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 10:23:41 pm by NoMoreFun »
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mxdata

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2021, 10:14:53 pm »
+2

Claim
Action/Heritage - $2
+1 Action
You may reveal an Action from your hand. Each other player may reveal a copy of it. If no other player reveals it, play it twice.

Historian
Action - $5
+3 Cards
You may discard an Action for +1 Action
(Heritage: Claim)

Claim would be really strong with Knights and cards from the Black Market, since you'd be guaranteed to have a card that no one else has a copy of. It would be weaker in multiplayer with normal Kingdom cards, since the more opponents you have, the more likely it is that one of them will have a copy. Maybe it should be like Gladiator, and only care about the person to your left?
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Aquila

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2021, 10:31:33 am »
+1

Quote
Pundit - Action Duration, $5 cost.
Trash a card from your hand. If this is the first Pundit you've played this turn and the previous turn wasn't yours, draw 1 card per $1 the trashed card costs at Clean-up (instead of 5) and take another turn after this one.
Heritage: Vista
Quote
Vista - Victory Heritage, $5 cost.
4 VP
-
When you trash this, +1 Buy and non-Victory cards cost $2 less for the turn.
Enlargement on Estates giving 1VP, trying to create a choice between keep or trash the Vista.
Pundit is a cost-dependent tfb that optionally discards hand and draws to X together with a fixed +$2. creates a bonus turn with X cards in hand. It replaces the typical 5, so Expedition would add 2 cards onto X.

Edit: Vista down to $5 cost so it can't be remodeled into Province, and changed Pundit's benefit.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 03:53:38 am by Aquila »
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Xen3k

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2021, 10:08:50 pm »
+3



Quote
Young Angler - $4
Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard a card. If it is an...
Action card, +1 Card
Fish card, +1 Card
Treasure card, gain 2 Fish
Victory card, +$1
(Heritage: Fishing Hole)
Quote
Fishing Hole - $3
Victory - Reaction - Heritage
1VP
----
When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may reveal it to reveal the top 3 cards of the Fish pile. Gain 1 and trash the rest.

Fish Pile: 4 of each, total of 28 cards



Quote
Freshwater Eel  -$2*
Night - Attack - Fish
+1 Coffers
You may trash this. If you do, choose one: Each other player gains a Curse; or +3 Villagers.
----
When you trash this, shuffle this into the Fish pile.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Quote
Northern Pike - $2*
Action - Attack - Fish
+1 Action
+1 Coffers
You may trash this for +1 Card. If you do, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
----
When you trash this, shuffle this into the Fish pile.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Quote
European Perch - $2*
Dawn - Action -Fish
+1 Buy
+1 Coffers
You may play an Action card from your hand. You may trash this to play it again.
----
When you trash this, shuffle this into the Fish pile.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Quote
Brown Trout - $2*
Action - Fish
+1 Trade
Choose one: +1 Action and +1 Coffers; or +2 Cards; or pay 2 Trade and trash this for +1 Card, +1 Action, and gain 2 Spoils.
----
When you trash this, shuffle this into the Fish pile.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Quote
Atlantic Cod - $2*
Action - Fish
+1 Action
+1 Coffers
You may trash this for +1 Card. If you do, gain a non-Victory
card costing up to $5, Freezing it 2 times.
----
When you trash this, shuffle this into the Fish pile.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Quote
Atlantic Salmon - $2*
Action - Fish
+2 Routes
+1 Coffers
You may trash this. If you do, +1 Card and +1 Action.
----
When you trash this, shuffle this into the Fish pile.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Quote
Common Carp - $2*
Action - Fish
+2 Actions
Queue the top card of your deck.
You may trash this. If you do, trash 2 cards from your hand
----
When you trash this, shuffle this into the Fish pile.
(This is not in the Supply.)

Apologies for the large post. This design kinda got out of hand. I wanted to make a card that got you Fish cards, which were going to be a Candlestick Maker that could trash itself for +1 Card. I ended up wanting a bit of variety akin to Ruins and ended up with 7 different Fish cards using a variety of Custom mechanics, all with a self trashing ability. The Fish pile is a face down pile that is in random order. Every time a Fish is trashed it is shuffled back into the Fish pile.

The designs I have for this contest is the Young Angler and his Heritage; the Fishing Hole. Young Angler is, at minimum, a cantrip, but you want to get some Fish so he can be a Laboratory. Fishing Hole combos with him, or any discard outlet, to get you Fish. The balance of the Fish are suspect, so I am sure I am missing something in their designs. Feedback is appreciate.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2021, 10:10:00 pm by Xen3k »
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Timinou

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2021, 11:06:39 am »
+1



Quote
Young Angler - $4
Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard a card. If it is an...
Action card, +1 Card
Fish card, +1 Card
Treasure card, gain 2 Fish
Victory card, +$1
(Heritage: Fishing Hole)
Quote
Fishing Hole - $3
Victory - Reaction - Heritage
1VP
----
When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may reveal it to reveal the top 3 cards of the Fish pile. Gain 1 and trash the rest.

The mechanic of returning the Fish to their pile when trashed is interesting, but there is a potential infinite VP issue with Tomb.
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Xen3k

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2021, 12:14:52 pm »
0



Quote
Young Angler - $4
Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard a card. If it is an...
Action card, +1 Card
Fish card, +1 Card
Treasure card, gain 2 Fish
Victory card, +$1
(Heritage: Fishing Hole)
Quote
Fishing Hole - $3
Victory - Reaction - Heritage
1VP
----
When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may reveal it to reveal the top 3 cards of the Fish pile. Gain 1 and trash the rest.

The mechanic of returning the Fish to their pile when trashed is interesting, but there is a potential infinite VP issue with Tomb.

That is a good point, but I am not sure how to properly resolve it. I wanted Fish to be a valid trash for benefit source that does not run out. Is it overly easy to abuse?

Edit: If you mean that this card can give a constant source of VP tokens with Tomb, I would say it is similar to any of the cards that pull things from the Trash (like Lurker) along with a Trasher. The Fish will be a more straight forward way to do this, but I would say that is an issue with Tomb more than anything. IDK, but thanks for the feedback.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 12:32:57 pm by Xen3k »
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mxdata

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2021, 08:16:43 pm »
+1



Quote
Young Angler - $4
Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard a card. If it is an...
Action card, +1 Card
Fish card, +1 Card
Treasure card, gain 2 Fish
Victory card, +$1
(Heritage: Fishing Hole)
Quote
Fishing Hole - $3
Victory - Reaction - Heritage
1VP
----
When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may reveal it to reveal the top 3 cards of the Fish pile. Gain 1 and trash the rest.

The mechanic of returning the Fish to their pile when trashed is interesting, but there is a potential infinite VP issue with Tomb.

That is a good point, but I am not sure how to properly resolve it. I wanted Fish to be a valid trash for benefit source that does not run out. Is it overly easy to abuse?

Edit: If you mean that this card can give a constant source of VP tokens with Tomb, I would say it is similar to any of the cards that pull things from the Trash (like Lurker) along with a Trasher. The Fish will be a more straight forward way to do this, but I would say that is an issue with Tomb more than anything. IDK, but thanks for the feedback.

The interaction with Tomb is just the equivalent of sticking "+1 VP" on each Fish. A nice bonus, but hardly game-warping
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Timinou

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2021, 12:40:34 am »
+1


That is a good point, but I am not sure how to properly resolve it. I wanted Fish to be a valid trash for benefit source that does not run out. Is it overly easy to abuse?

I don't think it's overly easy to abuse, but I can see certain game states where players have decks primarily consisting of Young Anglers, Fishing Hole, and some Treasures (in fact, if you have enough overdraw, you'd just need one Treasure) and all they do is gain Fish off Young Angler and then play and trash them for points. 

On the other hand, Fish do give you Coffers, so that should entice players to start buying green cards at some point.

Quote
Edit: If you mean that this card can give a constant source of VP tokens with Tomb, I would say it is similar to any of the cards that pull things from the Trash (like Lurker) along with a Trasher. The Fish will be a more straight forward way to do this, but I would say that is an issue with Tomb more than anything. IDK, but thanks for the feedback.

I think Fortress-Tomb with any trasher that isn't a remodeler would be a better example, as that would be a constant source of VP without necessarily advancing the game towards completion (with Lurker, you will eventually get to a three-pile ending).

The interaction with Tomb is just the equivalent of sticking "+1 VP" on each Fish. A nice bonus, but hardly game-warping

My concern in the case of Tomb games is that the Fish get returned to their pile when trashed, so if all players go for this strategy it could theoretically lead to long games where players don't need to gain any other cards other than Fish to score points. But as I mentioned above, maybe the fact that you would gain a bunch of Coffers with Fish would entice you to buy cards.
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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2021, 05:01:24 pm »
+1

24 Hour Warning

I believe these are all the submissions so far (please let me know if I have missed any):
Surveyer / Manor by mxdata
Paranormal Investigator / Unmarked Graves by Mahowrath
Rowboat / Docks by spineflu
Historian / Claim by NoMoreFun
Pundit / Vista by Aquila
Young Angler / Fishing Hole (with Fish Pile) by Xen3k
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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2021, 05:17:35 pm »
0

also can I put in a meta request for whoever wins - that we do the holiday round-robin/secret santa contest rather than start the next fan mechanic contest after this? I know some people prefer we aren't doing more than two contests (the wdc +  set expansion or fan mechanic or [seasonal other contest]) and i think given that it's a two-parter over the holiday, we'll need extra time.

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2021, 10:13:10 pm »
+1

Quote
Ledger
$2 - Action
Draw up to 5 cards in hand. If your discard pile is empty, +$1. Otherwise, look through your discard pile and put the cheapest card from it into your hand. (You choose from cards tied for cheapest)

Quote
Slippery Quill
$3 - Victory - Reaction - Heritage
1 VP
-
When you draw this besides during clean-up, you may reveal and set it aside for +1 Coffers, then discard it at the start of clean-up.
When you play a Ledger, you may first reveal this from your hand to put this on the bottom of your deck.

FAQ: When you draw Quill and use its reaction when playing a "draw-to-x" card, it does not count toward your hand size.
As far as figuring "cheapest" with debt cards or potion cards, any card with any cost other than $0 costs more than $0. Otherwise, a card costing any amount of debt and no coin, or <P> and no coin, may tie for cheapest with the lowest coin cost.

The set-aside part is to limit its reaction to once per turn. Its second reaction puts it at the bottom of your deck instead of discarding it, so Ledger can give the +$1 for an empty discard pile.

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2021, 02:09:29 am »
+1

Quote
Charnel House
$4 - Action
Trash a card from your hand.  Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. If you did not draw any cards, +1 Action.
Heritage: Graveyard

Quote
Graveyard
$3 - Victory - Reaction - Heritage
1VP
-
When you trash a card, you may discard this for +1VP

Partly inspired by the discussion about Tomb.

Graveyard is priced at $3, so it can be plucked out of the trash with Graverobber or Rogue.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2021, 02:19:21 am by Timinou »
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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2021, 05:19:09 pm »
+4

CONTEST CLOSED

I will try to get judging out by the end of the weekend.
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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2021, 11:03:48 am »
+4

I am sorry this has taken so long. Was absolutely slammed at work all of last week and I am just starting to catch up.



Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards




Quote
Surveyer
Action - Victory
$4
+1 Card
+1 Action
Discard any number of Victory cards, revealed, for +$1 each.
-
1 VP
Heritage:Manor

Quote
Manor
Treasure - Victory - Heritage
$2
Worth $1 per Victory card in play
-
1 VP




A simple and fun design, Surveryers are cantrips that turn dead Victory cards into $, while Manor is a Victory-Treasure that starts out as a Copper, but gives more for each Victory card you have in play (presumably Surveyers, but it could be other cards).

Surveyer is quite similar to Mill, except that (a) it allows the player to discard any number of Victory cards, instead of discarding exactly 0 or 2, and (b) is limited to victory cards. At first glance, I kind of though Surveyer was almost strictly better than Mill (as it can do nearly everything Mill can, but can also discard 1 dead Victory card when that's all you want [e.g. when you have an Estate and 4 Silvers], and, more importantly, can discard many more, especially late in the game). However, Mill's ability to discard non-Victory dead cards--most importantly, Curses--is a strong advantage it has over Surveyer. In a game with a good curser (especially Mountebank), Mill will usually be the better choice. Also, the primary concern with the strictly better analysis is that if both cards are in the game, the strictly worse card will never be purchased. But with all players having a Manor in their deck, it is entirely possible that one pile will be emptied and the other tapped into (especially if Ironworks or Groom is also in the Kingdom). I still think its considerably stronger than Mill, but not so much that it's broken.

As for Manor, changing one of the Estates into a Treasure does mess with the opening payload (giving players $5/$3 or $4/$4), although less so than Baker (which provides all the additional options as Manor, as well as $6/$2 and $5/$3). However, the presence of Surveyer (and ability to buy multiple copies) could quickly turn it into a Gold or better. In the presence of other playable Victory cards, this could escalate even further. The combo is far from broken, but it is very strong. Thematically, I'm not sure why Surveyer would be a Victory card.

Overall, a solid entry with a nice synergy, but a little too simple. I don't see that there are that many interesting choices with Surveyer.





Quote
Paranormal Investigator - $3
Action

+1 Action
Trash a card from your hand.
You may gain a cheaper card, for +1 Card per $1 less it costs.
-
Heritage: Unmarked Graves

Quote
Unmarked Graves - $4
Victory - Heritage

0VP
-
When you trash this, do this any number of times:
Discard a card with a type not yet discarded for this, to gain a Will-o'-Wisp from its pile onto your deck.




Paranormal Investigator is a non-terminal trasher with an optional Dismantle effect, giving +1 Card per $1 of downgrade. It is an interesting design, especially when it comes to trashing Estates, as it presents the choice of either clearing the dead card for good but reducing your handsize by 2, or swapping the Estate for a Copper (presumably to trash later) but keeping your handsize intact.

Unmarked Graves seems to exist purely as fodder for trashers (usually Paranormal Investigator). If PI is used, it can function as a trashing cantrip that gains a Silver (or other $3 card), a Lab that converts it into an Estate (netting +1VP but no thinning) or a triple-Lab that converts it into a Copper. It also has an on-trash effect that allows you to discard cards of different types to get Will-o'-Wisps. I'm not sure how useful those would be, or how often a player will end up taking more than one, but it does slightly strengthen the trashing of UG.

While I don't consider 3-card/landscape combos grounds for too much concern, there is a potent one here with any Looter and Way of the Horse. Aside from that, I think PI provides a very interesting new take on a trasher, and UG adds an extra element of interest to that (even if I'm not totally blown away be UG's on-trash effect).






Quote
Rowboat $3 Action - Reaction
+1 Action
Reveal a card from your hand. For each type it has, +1 Card.
-
When you gain a card, if it isn't your turn, you may reveal this from your hand to trash that card

Quote
Dock $3 Heritage - Reaction - Duration
At the start of your next turn, +1 Card.
-
When something causes you to reveal this (using the word "reveal"), you may play it.




Rowboat is at least a cantrip (unless it is alone in your hand) that can turn into a Lab or better if you have a card with multiple types (including other copies of Rowboat). It also has a reaction that offers complete protection from opponent's junkers. Because it's a cantrip, it's easy to buy enough to frequently have one in your hand while imposing little burden on your deck (as opposed to Moat, which is terminal). The only official cantrip reactions are Market Square, Caravan Guard, and Village Green--two of which play themselves on-reaction and the third of which discards itself (limiting the ability to use them as reactions). Given the ease of putting this into one's deck, I suspect that its presence would make most junkers nearly unbuyable.

Dock is interesting. It's obvious use is to be revealed by Rowboat, which will not only turn the Rowboat into a double-Lab, but will allow the Dock to be played, giving a Caravan effect on the following turn. That said, I suspect that players would frequently grab multiple Rowboats, and they would prefer leaving Docks in their deck to be revealed, both by the next Rowboat up that turn (I am almost certain the decision to trigger Rowboat's reaction would have to happen before the player drew 3 cards), and so it would be in the player's deck the following turn (rather than in play).

These cards seem fun, but I think Rowboat is much too powerful, even without Dock, which only makes it stronger.





Quote
Historian
Action - $5
+3 Cards
You may discard an Action for +1 Action
(Heritage: Claim)

Quote
Claim
Action/Heritage - $2
+1 Action
You may reveal an Action from your hand. The player to your left may reveal a copy of it. If they didn't, play it twice.




Historian gives a conditionally terminal +3 Cards, allowing the player to discard an Action card for +1 Action. If (after playing Historian with only 1 Action) a player ends up with only one Action card in hand then it still is terminal (as they either can't play it or have to discard it), but if they end up with 2 or more Action cards, Historian turns into something like a Lab/Stables (although allowing the discard after the draw, which is a significant benefit). This would require some play testing, but I suspect Historian is on the strong side. In a solid engine, you would almost always be able to either (1) play a village before playing Historian, or (2) have at least 2 Action cards in your hand after the +3 Cards. In either case Historian ends up being non-terminal, and you can keep playing cards. If you can do this multiple times you will eventually draw the cards you discarded earlier.

Claim is a conditional village+throne room, throning a revealed card if the player to your left doesn't have a copy of it in hand. As with certain of the Acts from Week [X], the fact that this relies on a player having an Action card in hand to do anything prevents it from effecting the opening, while still being an Action card that is there from the beginning (and does become useful later on). However, when it does start to work, I think it quickly becomes very powerful. A village + throne is a huge improvement over a regular throne; while they can turn non-terminal cards into villages, throne variants (even King's Court) cannot make terminal cards non-terminal. Thus, if you have Throne Room + Smithy, while you will get more cards, you still draw them all terminally. By contrast, when Claim works it not only doubles the effect of other cards, but also makes all of them non-terminal, something that all other throne variants (except Citidel and Mastermind) can't do. And I don't think it will frequently be all that hard to trigger. In addition to mxdata's point about unique cards guaranteed to be played twice, even regular Kingdom cards, if there are several, useful engine components, the chance of your opponent having a certain one might be relatively low. This also runs the risk of forcing players to play an engine strategy, as failing to do so makes their opponent's Claim extremely powerful. Thus, I would suggest making the +1 Action conditional on the throne room not working.

Claim can also serve as discarding fodder to help Historian be non-terminal, or Claim can (potentially) play Historian twice, increasing the chances of finding 2 more Actions to make it non-terminal.





Quote
Pundit - Action Duration, $5 cost.
Trash a card from your hand. If this is the first Pundit you've played this turn and the previous turn wasn't yours, draw 1 card per $1 the trashed card costs at Clean-up (instead of 5) and take another turn after this one.
Heritage: Vista

Quote
Vista - Victory Heritage, $5 cost.
4 VP
-
When you trash this, +1 Buy and non-Victory cards cost $2 less for the turn.




Pundit is an interesting twist on Outpost. In addition to the extra turn you get, it trashes a card from your hand. However, you only get as many cards for the subsequent turn as the $ value of the trashed card, meaning that if you trash Coppers or Curses you get no cards, while Estates give you just 2. At $5, the card is impractical as a regular trasher (i.e. gaining it only for the trashing, and treating the 0- or 2-card bonus turn as a waste), although if it is the only trasher it could be worth it in the face of serious junking.

The possibility of a turn with a 0-card hand cries out for synergies/combos. The obvious choices are the likes of Guide, Alms, Baths, and Exploration. Landscapes like Way of the Chameleon and Summon can also be helpful, especially with draw-to-X cards, as can durations that provide cards and/or money at the start of the following turn (e.g. Caravan, Hireling, Merchant Ship, Tactician). At the margins, a 2-card hand can remove a -1 Card token to give you a full hand on your real turn. With any of these, Pundit can become much more powerful, making the bonus turn worthwhile even if you do not draw any cards during clean-up.

Vista replaces a 1VP Estate with a 4VP dead card which has the effect of a Princess trashed. As I mentioned, above, having a Heritage card that is not a Victory card (and thus reduces a player's overall starting VP) has little effect, except to make trashers slightly more beneficial, as the VP advantage of a player who keeps their Estates over one who trashes them is reduced. Vista does just the opposite; if paired with 2 Estates, the benefit for keeping your starting Victory cards goes from 3VP to 6VP. Normally, this would make trashers less beneficial. However, Vista's on-trash bonus can balance that out. Since only non-Victory cards are discounted, there is a strong incentive to trash Vista sooner rather than later (to maximize the benefit of the deck improvement those cards generate), although that is at odds with the benefit from trashing Vista with the $5 Pundit (which most players won't get on their opening). If you trash it with Pundit, you not only get a full hand for your bonus turn but an extra buy and $2 discount for non-Victory cards. There are some other potential synergies as well (for example, if you want to use Vista's on-trash bonus to load up on Action cards, rather than buying them outright you can buy 2 Stonemasons and double the Actions you would gain).

Overall Pundit (while limited in its usefulness without a good synergy) presents some interesting choices and fun gameplay. Vista is both an interesting implementation of the Heritage mechanic and has a nice synergy with Pundit.




Quote
Young Angler - $4
Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard a card. If it is an...
Action card, +1 Card
Fish card, +1 Card
Treasure card, gain 2 Fish
Victory card, +$1
(Heritage: Fishing Hole)

Quote
Fishing Hole - $3
Victory - Reaction - Heritage
1VP
----
When you discard this other than during Clean-up, you may reveal it to reveal the top 3 cards of the Fish pile. Gain 1 and trash the rest.






Wow. There is a lot going on here. While I can't be mad about the giant fish pile as it is exactly the kind of the I'd do (and have done), from a judging perspective having all of these different cards (which are not intuitive or simple variants of one another) goes pretty strongly against the simplicity category.

Young Angler is a cantrip that allows the player to discard a card for a benefit. This turns Victory cards into Coppers, most Action cards into cantrips (potentially helping deal with terminal collision or triggering an on-discard ability), Fish from the Fish pile (other than Freshwater Eel, which is a Night so will only be a cantrip) into Labs, and Treasures into double-gainers (getting you two Fish). Right away that's kind of nuts. If you only ever hit Victory cards this would be pretty close to a $4 peddler. If you don't have one available, you have the choice of (1) doing nothing, or (2) turn 1 of the Treasure cards in your hand into 2 Fish, which in addition to being themselves somewhat useful can turn into Labs if YA gets ahold of them.

Fishing Hole is an Estate that, when discarded (presumably, but not necessarily, via Young Angler) gives the player their choice of the top 3 Fish in the fish pile (along with the +$1 from YA, if that is what was used.

Then there are the 7 Fish cards. All but are (or at least can be) a non-terminal source of +1 Coffers (like Candlestick Maker without the +1 Buy); each also has an optional bonus ability if the card is trashed, and each has below-the-line text saying "When you trash this, shuffle this into the Fish pile."

I don't know why these cards have that below-the-line text and be trashed as part of their built-in effect (either through their self-trashing abilities or through Fishing Hole's reaction). As Timinou pointed out, this creates interactions with official cards that seem unnecessarily broken. Tomb is the most obvious example, but Market Square is a close runner-up. A Young Angler / Market Square opening seems all but mandatory, as Market Square would trigger anytime a fish was used and its self-trashing power triggered. For both the Fishing Hole reaction and each Fish card's bonus ability, you could just as easily have had the effects shuffle them back into the deck directly (or put them on the bottom of the deck, to save so much shuffling in IRL games). The only disadvantage that would have would be that if the fish were trashed by other effects, the pile might start to deplete. But as $2 cards they have little appeal with tfb cards (which could be trashing Estates instead). Also, with 4 copies each of 7 cards, there are 28 of them, almost as many as there are Horses. I have played games where there was good incentive to trash Horses using tfb, and I never got anywhere close to emptying the pile. In addition to preventing the issues with Tomb and MS, it makes these already overly complicated cards less complicated, both conceptually and in terms of amount of text (it would add a little bit of additional text to Fishing Hole, but the text there is already tiny).

Even with that fix, there is way too much going on. I get the desire to combine a lot of mechanics (and again, have done so), but doing that, especially in this context, multiplies complexity on itself. It is conceivable that a player might spend several minutes choosing which of which of three Fish to take after discarding FH with YA, something that could happen on Turn 3 and several turns thereafter. They also feel pretty unbalanced. Trade tokens can often have extremely powerful effects, making the ability to get one non-terminally (along with a Coffers) potentially incredibly powerful. Route tokens are similarly quite potent, although at least Atlantic Salmon is terminal. The other cards also seem pretty powerful for how easy it is to get multiple copies. That is somewhat mitigated by the fact that I think players would prefer to keep the Fish around to turn into Labs, but that is only because that ability is even more crazy powerful. There is also a wording issue with European Perch. The sentence "You may trash this to play it again." is ambiguous. I think you mean play the action card played from the player's hand again, but I think the plain reading of this is to play European Perch again (because "it" generally refers to the last noun, which in that sentence is "this").

I appreciate the effort, but ultimately I think this is a little too strong has way too much going on.

Fish Pile: 4 of each, total of 28 cards



Quote
Freshwater Eel  -$2*
Night - Attack - Fish
+1 Coffers
You may trash this. If you do, choose one: Each other player gains a Curse; or +3 Villagers.
----
When you trash this, shuffle this into the Fish pile.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Quote
Northern Pike - $2*
Action - Attack - Fish
+1 Action
+1 Coffers
You may trash this for +1 Card. If you do, each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
----
When you trash this, shuffle this into the Fish pile.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Quote
European Perch - $2*
Dawn - Action -Fish
+1 Buy
+1 Coffers
You may play an Action card from your hand. You may trash this to play it again.
----
When you trash this, shuffle this into the Fish pile.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Quote
Brown Trout - $2*
Action - Fish
+1 Trade
Choose one: +1 Action and +1 Coffers; or +2 Cards; or pay 2 Trade and trash this for +1 Card, +1 Action, and gain 2 Spoils.
----
When you trash this, shuffle this into the Fish pile.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Quote
Atlantic Cod - $2*
Action - Fish
+1 Action
+1 Coffers
You may trash this for +1 Card. If you do, gain a non-Victory
card costing up to $5, Freezing it 2 times.
----
When you trash this, shuffle this into the Fish pile.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Quote
Atlantic Salmon - $2*
Action - Fish
+2 Routes
+1 Coffers
You may trash this. If you do, +1 Card and +1 Action.
----
When you trash this, shuffle this into the Fish pile.
(This is not in the Supply.)
Quote
Common Carp - $2*
Action - Fish
+2 Actions
Queue the top card of your deck.
You may trash this. If you do, trash 2 cards from your hand
----
When you trash this, shuffle this into the Fish pile.
(This is not in the Supply.)





Quote
Ledger
$2 - Action
Draw up to 5 cards in hand. If your discard pile is empty, +$1. Otherwise, look through your discard pile and put the cheapest card from it into your hand. (You choose from cards tied for cheapest)

Quote
Slippery Quill
$3 - Victory - Reaction - Heritage
1 VP
-
When you draw this besides during clean-up, you may reveal and set it aside for +1 Coffers, then discard it at the start of clean-up.
When you play a Ledger, you may first reveal this from your hand to put this on the bottom of your deck.




Ledger is a terminal dtx that, after drawing will generally either put a Copper into your hand or give you +$1. From scratch this makes it, in effect, a terminal peddler, which even at $2 seems like it might be overpriced. It can also sift Slippery Quill, but only to the bottom of your deck (roughly the equivalent of ensuring that the next shuffle has a generally-dead card on top). It gets stronger (1) as a response to handsize attacks, (2) with disappearing money (especially those that are also villages like Festival, Conclave, or Squire), and (3) if you have trashed all of your Coppers and Estates, letting you add Silver to your hand. Absent any of those, I don't know how many decks would want to open with this, even on a $5/$2, and especially on a $3/$4. It might be bought later with access to +Buy (or even on an opening with Pouch or Delve), but I do feel like it is somewhat limited in its usefulness.

Slippery Quill is an estate with 2 Reactions: when drawn other than during Clean-up it can generate +1 Coffers, and (as previously mentioned) if you play Ledger it can go to the bottom of a player's deck. In an empty deck (or one with few enough cards), the second reaction will allow a player to trigger the first. I do appreciate the effort at having the Kingdom Card synergize with the Heritage, but to me, this feels like a lot of complexity to produce a rather minimal effect. Also, while coming up with novel reactions can be interesting, I don't know that I love this one. In the context of IRL games, it makes drawing a bit awkward, as a player will have to take the drawn cards and look at them separately from their hand (as opposed to what is often the most natural motion of putting them into your hand and then looking at them). Again, if this was for a really interesting, game-changing effect it might be worth it, but just to get +1 Coffers it seems like it might be a bit too much work.





Quote
Charnel House
$4 - Action
Trash a card from your hand.  Draw until you have 6 cards in hand. If you did not draw any cards, +1 Action.
Heritage: Graveyard

Quote
Graveyard
$3 - Victory - Reaction - Heritage
1VP
-
When you trash a card, you may discard this for +1VP




Charnel House provides an interesting combo of trashing and dtx. The obvious synergy there is that the trashing takes a second card out of your hand (in addition to the card played), so from a 5 card starting hand CH ends up drawing 3 cards. It's not strictly better than Smithy, since the next CH will only draw 2, and a trashing engine piece often becomes problematic later in the game if you've gotten rid of all the trash (see Hideout).

Outside the context of engines, I still think this is an unusually strong trasher. Many trashers (Chapel, Steward, Temple, etc.) force you to forgo handsize this turn (depriving you of both the slot of the trasher and the slot of the card trashed) in exchange for a better deck overall. This can be exacerbated further by handsize attacks, which often leave you with the choice of forgoing trashing or forgoing your turn entirely. By contrast, from a hand of 5 or less, CH both trashes and leaves you with a bigger handsize. Its only real cost (besides the opportunity cost of buying/gaining it) is that it's terminal, and in many decks that will not matter. I think it would be worth playtesting as is, but my first instinct is that it is on the strong side.

The conditional +1 Action seems largely superfluous. If you have 7+ cards in hand, that's probably because of some sort of engine that is not relying on CH for its source of +Actions. But I could imagine some scenarios where it might be important (the first that comes to mind is with Golem, where you get CH and Smithy/Margrave/etc. and want both the +Action and more choices for what to trash). While not that big of a deal, CH is already strong without it. That said, my first instinct is to have it draw to 5 instead of 6, but that might be too weak, and as I said previously it would be worth playtesting as-is.

Graveyard functions as a kind of baby Tomb, giving Tomb's effect but only as a reaction on-discard (thus, only once). It syncs well with CH in that it can be discarded when CH does its trashing, leaving an extra slot in the player's hand to draw yet another card.

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emtzalex

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2021, 11:07:03 am »
+4


Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards



The Results

Thanks to everyone who participated. I have some more thoughts that I will try to get out in later, but for now here are the results:


Third Place: Pundit / Vista by Aquila

Second Place: Charnel House / Graveyard by Timinou

Winner: Paranormal Investigator / Unmarked Graves by Mahowrath
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Xen3k

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2021, 12:25:56 pm »
+3

Thank you emtzalex for judging and humoring my ridiculous entry. I actually convinced my IRL game group to try out a version of this that did not include all of the custom mechanics. Needless to say, your critiques of it are pretty spot on the money. I am going to rework this and post a modified version of this for additional feedback, but what you have given me is invaluable. Thanks again and congrats to Mahowrath!
« Last Edit: December 15, 2021, 12:26:58 pm by Xen3k »
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Mahowrath

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2021, 03:27:22 pm »
+2

Thanks emtzalex, and agreed on the analysis - I couldn't quite get Unmarked Graves to where I wanted it.

Regarding the next contest; I'm out of ideas, and pretty busy with interviews and the run up to Christmas. I'm happy to pass the reins over to Timinou as 2nd place, to do with as they please; or if everyone's in the same boat, could postpone until the new year.

Update: Happy to go with spineflu's suggestion below. (referencing this post)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 06:42:43 pm by Mahowrath »
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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2021, 03:38:13 pm »
+3

can we postpone til the new year and do the secret santa contest (that someone suggested in the wdc ideas thread) until then?

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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2021, 11:29:23 am »
0

My vote goes to the Secret Santa contest....spineflu would you be able to lead that?
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Re: Fan Card Mechanics Week 24: Heritage Cards
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2021, 04:40:41 pm »
0

My vote goes to the Secret Santa contest....spineflu would you be able to lead that?

yes, gladly!
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