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DunnoItAll

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Dominion: Subterfuge
« on: May 23, 2021, 06:55:42 pm »
+2

When I first got into designing fan cards, I went a little nuts.  I tried to design complicated, strategy heavy cards and travelers without really having any idea what I was doing.  I would try to get about 25 kingdom cards and a couple of new ideas and say done!  Then move on to a new expansion with a new theme.  It was terrible.  But I learned.

After doing 4 complete expansions (really more, but I scrapped a couple of them totally), I realized I didn't like any of them.  But, there were some good cards in there.  At least, I think there were.  I decided to take the cards that I thought were actually decent and make one expansion that I'm actually proud of.  That's where Dominion: Subterfuge comes from.

There are nearly 30 Kingdom cards and a few non-Supply piles and extras. No landscape cards, but there is a mat, a token, and meeples! I tried to stick to a theme of new takes on old ideas (you can often see the inspiration for a card quickly).

I'm going to introduce a few at a time to keep from being overwhelming, and I would LOVE feedback.  I want to make this set the best it can be.

EDIT: Here are the current versions of the cards in high quality.





« Last Edit: May 31, 2021, 01:21:55 pm by DunnoItAll »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2021, 10:05:08 pm »
+1

7 villages! That's a lot for an expansion with about 30 cards. Then again I feel like I've played a lot of village-less games lately, so maybe increasing the average number of villages in the pool is a good thing.

Arcade: This is way weaker than Plaza for a few reasons. When you discard a Copper with Plaza, you're basically saving the $1 the Copper would have gotten you for a future turn. But Arcade doesn't save the effect of the action you discard, and +1 Villager is usually pretty poor compensation since your Actions are generally far stronger than a Copper. Add to that the fact that Arcade gives you +2 Actions, so you'd almost always rather play the Action cards instead of discarding them. I think this card needs major changes, probably away from being a village.

Cahoots: A little too complex, I think. Also I'm trying to figure out if this really provides any gameplay that Ironmonger doesn't already. It's a Laboratory far more often, I'm guessing. But I think overall it's too similar. Perhaps you can rework the concept of "if your top card matches the one of the player to your left" into a simpler, more unique form.

Cottages: Well, this seems reasonable, but maybe not exciting. Even once it activates, it's just a village. I think it needs a little something extra. Nothing crazy, since you usually want to trash your Coppers anyway, but something.

Horse Ranch: Hmm, interesting. I like this one. As you say it's a village overall, but most of the benefit is deferred. I would cost it at $3! It's not strictly better than Village, so I think you can get away with that.

Mining Town: In general, effects shouldn't just happen at any time during your turn. Being able to do things in the middle of resolving effects is asking for trouble. Beyond that, I'd say this seems strong. The way it's worded, you can gain a Gold per time you've played a Mining Town, and Mining Towns are cheap. Also Natural Resource should be white and green since it's an Action-Victory card. Natural Resource will certainly shake up openings, which is mostly good, though at this point lots of cards do that already.

Sojourn: This is totally reasonable. A little dull, but a totally fine village and well-costed.

Township: This seems promising. I bet reasonably often you'll be able to get the benefit, but sometimes you won't. I'm guessing it's quite strong and maybe too strong, but I'm not willing to make that claim before testing it out.
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DunnoItAll

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2021, 05:34:27 am »
0

7 villages! That's a lot for an expansion with about 30 cards. Then again I feel like I've played a lot of village-less games lately, so maybe increasing the average number of villages in the pool is a good thing.

I agree, it's a lot, but that was my reasoning. However, I do plan on cutting a couple of cards from this set to get it to 25, so I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of these went away.

Arcade: This is way weaker than Plaza for a few reasons. When you discard a Copper with Plaza, you're basically saving the $1 the Copper would have gotten you for a future turn. But Arcade doesn't save the effect of the action you discard, and +1 Villager is usually pretty poor compensation since your Actions are generally far stronger than a Copper. Add to that the fact that Arcade gives you +2 Actions, so you'd almost always rather play the Action cards instead of discarding them. I think this card needs major changes, probably away from being a village.
Agree on this one. Probably the weakest attempt of the bunch here. A prime candidate for the cutting room floor.

Cahoots: A little too complex, I think. Also I'm trying to figure out if this really provides any gameplay that Ironmonger doesn't already. It's a Laboratory far more often, I'm guessing. But I think overall it's too similar. Perhaps you can rework the concept of "if your top card matches the one of the player to your left" into a simpler, more unique form.
It lets you capitalize on the player on your left's top card. In theory (at least the one I made up in my head), the most valuable form for this card is the Lab form (a $5 card vs. a $4+ and a $3), so you want the types to mismatch. If your opponent has an unusual card type on top of their deck, you can stack these against it. Say they reveal a Curse, for example. Every Cahoot is then going to be a Laboratory. Alternately, if they have a Treasure on top of their deck, none of your Cahoots will wind up being the weakest form, the Village (all will become a Peddler or a Laboratory). Probably not a huge difference, but what I was going for, anyway. I can tell you during play-testing, you can feel that difference.

Cottages: Well, this seems reasonable, but maybe not exciting. Even once it activates, it's just a village. I think it needs a little something extra. Nothing crazy, since you usually want to trash your Coppers anyway, but something.
Yep, went for simplicity here.

Horse Ranch: Hmm, interesting. I like this one. As you say it's a village overall, but most of the benefit is deferred. I would cost it at $3! It's not strictly better than Village, so I think you can get away with that.
$3 is an interesting idea, and I didn't even consider it. I just think filling your deck with horses seems too strong for that, but you might be right.

Mining Town: In general, effects shouldn't just happen at any time during your turn. Being able to do things in the middle of resolving effects is asking for trouble. Beyond that, I'd say this seems strong. The way it's worded, you can gain a Gold per time you've played a Mining Town, and Mining Towns are cheap. Also Natural Resource should be white and green since it's an Action-Victory card. Natural Resource will certainly shake up openings, which is mostly good, though at this point lots of cards do that already.
I'd prefer it to be once per turn period, no matter how many Mining Towns get played. I'd love a wording suggestion here.  I think I struggled with that for awhile when I made the card. Interestingly, Natural Resource is white and green, I just use the Night Blend mode so only the top and bottom are green while the rest is white.  I hate the stripey look, so I just use that out of preference even though I know it's inconsistent. I should probably change it.

Township: This seems promising. I bet reasonably often you'll be able to get the benefit, but sometimes you won't. I'm guessing it's quite strong and maybe too strong, but I'm not willing to make that claim before testing it out.
Haven't gotten this one in a game yet, so I'm not sure either. Might consider a tiny nerf on top of it, but I have no idea what.

Thanks so much for the feedback!
« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 07:56:20 am by DunnoItAll »
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DunnoItAll

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2021, 09:39:39 am »
+1

For part 2, I thought I would move on to the split piles and a card that requires two extra non-supply piles.

Quote
Interest, $2 Action
Count the number of Interest and Savings cards in the Supply. If the difference is at least 2, draw a number of cards equal to the difference. Otherwise, +1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Buy.
Quote
Savings, $6 Treasure
$4
+1 Buy
Return this to the Supply.
-
This costs $1 less per Interest you have in play.

The interaction between the cards here is pretty fun, but it seems like it's way too often that Interest can draw 4 or 5 cards. I want to preserve the interaction and spirit here, but I think I need a way to calm that bit down. Open to ideas!

Quote
Housing, $4 Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
+$1 per other Housing you have in play.
You may put a Victory card from your hand onto your Housing Mat.
Quote
Residents, $5 Action
If there are any Victory cards on your Housing mat with fewer Meeples than its cost in $, choose one of them, then +1 Meeple and put it on that card.

This one has come a long way since its initial idea stage. I think I'm pretty happy with how the Victory points for Meeples scale, but I'm interested in other thoughts on this.

Quote
Nest, $3 Action-Duration-Host
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard a Treasure other than Copper to gain an Egg.
-
During clean-up, if this Hosts an Egg, it stays in play.
Quote
Egg, $4 Action
Put this on an empty Nest you have in play. If you did, at the start of each of your turns, turn this over. Then, if it's face-up, trash it, gain a Chicken, and +1 VP.
Quote
Chicken
+1 Card
+1 Action
Trash an Estate from the Supply, and if you did, +2VP; otherwise, trash a Duchy from the Supply, and if you did, +3VP.

Probably my favorite idea I've ever had, and I love that this actually works like I want it to.  It has probably gone through more revisions than any other card(s) I've made.  I don't know if the balance is perfect, but it feels close in my testing.

This set of card ideas overall consists of some of my absolute favorite ideas. I'm pretty excited to share them, though I'll bet a lot of you have seen me present them before. Can't wait to hear your thoughts!
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2021, 10:19:01 am »
+1

Mining Town: In general, effects shouldn't just happen at any time during your turn. Being able to do things in the middle of resolving effects is asking for trouble. Beyond that, I'd say this seems strong. The way it's worded, you can gain a Gold per time you've played a Mining Town, and Mining Towns are cheap. Also Natural Resource should be white and green since it's an Action-Victory card. Natural Resource will certainly shake up openings, which is mostly good, though at this point lots of cards do that already.
I'd prefer it to be once per turn period, no matter how many Mining Towns get played. I'd love a wording suggestion here.  I think I struggled with that for awhile when I made the card. Interestingly, Natural Resource is white and green, I just use the Night Blend mode so only the top and bottom are green while the rest is white.  I hate the stripey look, so I just use that out of preference even though I know it's inconsistent. I should probably change it.

Well probably what you want is, "+1 Card; +2 Actions; You may discard a Natural Resource to gain a Gold onto your deck." But I still think it seems strong, even with that nerf.
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DunnoItAll

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2021, 10:27:14 am »
0

The next group of cards features a Night-Duration, a couple of Reserves, a sifter, and a trash for benefit.

Quote
Escort, $4 Night-Duration
Until the start of your next turn, when you gain a card you may put it into your hand. At the start of your next turn, +$2 and you may trash a card from your hand.
-
This is gained to your hand (instead of your discard pile).


Quote
Mausoleum, $5 Action
+1 Card
+1 Buy
Look at the top 2 cards of your deck. Choose one: Put them in your hand; Exile them, Trash them; or Discard them and +2 Cards.


Quote
Offering, $4 Action-Attack-Looter
Each other player gains a Ruins. Trash a card from your hand. If it has exactly...
1 Type: +$2         
2 Types: +3 Cards, +1 Action
3 or more Types: +3VP


Quote
Opportunist, $5 Action-Reserve
Put this on your Tavern mat.
-
At the start of your turn, you may call this for +$3.
While this is on your Tavern mat, when another player buys a card costing $5 or more, +1 Villager.


Quote
Vulture, $5 Action-Reserve
+3 Cards
Put this on your Tavern mat.
-
When another player buys a card costing $5 or more, you may call this to either gain a Gold or gain a Silver to your hand.




« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 11:18:36 am by DunnoItAll »
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Shael

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2021, 11:28:47 am »
0

I really like Arcade but I think that the card have 3 main flaw:
-you usually prefer Coffers to Villager, especially after playing a village.
-you usually want to keep your action card (where copper could be discarded with plaza without any remorse).
-you usually donít want to get rid of your action cards after playing a village.
The design of the card is really nice and elegant but I feel like itís a card that can never exist at any normal cost: it canít cost $3 but it will be usually just used as a normal Village.
However, you may push up the ęnegation of plazaĽ style of the card, for example by making it a sort of lab variant (event if itís weak at 6$), make it donít give the choice (and then it could be balanced at $3) or, instead, increase the possibility (discard any number of action for the same number of villager). I think the idea is good and I really have the ę why this card donít exist? Ľ feeling; and thatís always a nice thing for a card in my opinion.


Cahoots, seem pretty long. I think the effect could be reworded; Iíve test this one and I think itís clearer:
Quote
+1 Card
+1 Action
You and the player to your left reveal the top card of your deck.
If they are both Treasure: +$1,
if they are both Action: +1 Action.
Otherwise, +1 Card

There is more space and it take one line less. The card on itself is pretty strong I think but not too OP. I think the plan of this card could be understander this way: at the beginning of the game, it's usale between a lab and a Peddler (but it's not too strong because +1 Action isn't that good in verry early game. after that, it could be consider as Itís a lab when both player runing different strategy but then, both are encourage to buy it and that bring the card to it worth stage: just a expensive village. I think it's a card that balance itself: if it's too trong, it become weaker and that's a really good thing.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2021, 03:07:12 pm »
+1

I think some of these cards would be more compelling with fewer options. Some examples:

Mausoleum doesn't need both a trash option and an exile option. Yeah it's stronger with both, but one or the other would suffice. I would go with trashing in this case.

Vulture could either gain a Gold or gain a Silver to your hand, not give you an option between them. If you're able to test it, see which option players tend to take the most, and then go with that.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2021, 03:07:52 pm »
0

I like Mausoleum but even without the extra Buy it would be too strong.

Also why does it have +1 Card? If +1 Card is on a non-terminal card, it should probably have a pretty good reason to be there.
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DunnoItAll

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2021, 06:53:24 pm »
0

I like Mausoleum but even without the extra Buy it would be too strong.

Also why does it have +1 Card? If +1 Card is on a non-terminal card, it should probably have a pretty good reason to be there.

Not sure what you mean.  Mausoleum is terminal. It's there to make it 3 total cards you can draw instead of 2. If you guys think it's too strong, it can definitely be 2 total by removing that.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2021, 08:12:44 pm »
0

Sorry, I meant to say "terminal", not "non-terminal". It makes sense when you choose the "Put the cards into your hand" option, I'll give you that.
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DunnoItAll

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2021, 10:35:42 am »
+1

A few more cards!

Quote
Ancient Laboratory, $4 Action-Reaction
+2 Cards
You may play an Action card that has no other types from your hand.
-
When another player plays an Attack card, you may first reveal this from your hand to draw a card.

A limited Lab with the inability to play itself.

Quote
Collector, $4 Action
+1 Buy
Reveal any number of copies of any one card from your hand. +$1 per card you revealed.

A kind of anti-Harvest.

Quote
Craftsman, $5 Action
Choose one: Gain a card costing up to $4; or, if you have any unused Action, -1 Action and gain a card costing $5.

This card won a fan card mechanic design contest. Wording has been slightly improved from that version.

Quote
Shortcut, $3 Action-Reserve
+2 Cards
+1 Action
Discard two cards.
Put this on your Tavern mat.
-
At the start of your turn, you may call this to reduce the cost of cards by $1 this turn.

A cost-reducer that you can save up for a big turn.

Quote
Well, $3 Action
+1 Action
+1 Buy
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Treasures. Put one into your hand and trash the other. Discard the other revealed cards.

A riskier Venture type card in cantrip Action form.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2021, 01:23:57 pm by DunnoItAll »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2021, 03:59:20 pm »
+1

Ancient Laboratory, $4 Action-Reaction
+2 Cards
You may play an Action card that has no other types from your hand.
-
When another player plays an Attack card, you may first reveal this from your hand to draw a card.

You can reveal Ancient Laboratory from your hand an unlimited number of times and draw your deck. Thatís why Horse Traders has an awful wording for basically the same +1 Card effect.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2021, 04:32:23 pm by LastFootnote »
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DunnoItAll

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2021, 07:12:45 pm »
0

Ancient Laboratory, $4 Action-Reaction
+2 Cards
You may play an Action card that has no other types from your hand.
-
When another player plays an Attack card, you may first reveal this from your hand to draw a card.

You can reveal Ancient Laboratory from your hand an unlimited number of times and draw your deck. Thatís why Horse Traders has an awful wording for basically the same +1 Card effect.

Ah, I added that ability hastily because I wanted to make it qualify for a second type so it can't play itself. I knew better.  Thanks for catching this. I've changed the wording to match Horse Traders.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2021, 11:01:24 pm by DunnoItAll »
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DunnoItAll

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2021, 11:20:44 pm »
0

The last batch of cards is here. We have an Heirloom, the rest of the Heritages, and some Gourmet cards.

Quote
Bargaining Chip, $5 Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may pay a ß for +$3. If you don't, +1 Buy.
-
When you gain this, +1 ß

Quote
Leverage, $1 Treasure-Reserve-Heirloom
$1
You may pay a ß for +1 Buy.
You may put this on your Tavern mat.
-
Directly after you finish playing a Bargaining Chip, you may call this for +1 ß.


Quote
Cook, $5 Action
Gain a Food. You may trash a Food from your hand for + 2%.

Quote
Ingredients, $5 Action-Duration
+2 Cards
+1 Buy
If you have an even number of Ingredients in play, gain a Food. At the start of your next turn, +1 Card and +1 Buy.

Quote
Reap, $5 Action
You may discard up to 2 Victory cards from your hand for +$1 and gain a Food each.

Quote
Food, $4 Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may discard a card for +1 Villager.
(This is not in the Supply.)


Quote
Dynasty, $5 Action
+2 Cards
At the start of clean-up, you may exchange 3 Coppers in play for 1 Silver or 2 Silvers in play for 1 Gold.
Quote
Birthright, $3 Victory-Reaction-Heritage
1VP
-
When you play a 3rd Copper in one of your turns, you may discard this from your hand for +1 Buy.


Quote
Reconnoiter, $5 Action-Attack
Each other player discards a Treasure or reveals a hand with no Treasures.
Reveal the top 3 cards of your deck. Put the Treasures into your hand.
If you revealed a Hidden Storeroom, +1 Action and you may put it on your deck. Discard the other revealed cards.

Quote
Hidden Storeroom, $3 Victory-Reaction-Heritage
1VP
-
When another player plays an Attack, you may first set this aside for +1 Coffers. Return this to your hand immediately after the Attack is resolved.


After these cards have been up for awhile, I will edit the OP of this thread with a wall of all the latest versions of the cards for people to use in their own games.
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The Alchemist

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2021, 12:01:41 pm »
0



You can save a lot of text on Sojourn with this wording:

+2 Actions
Look at the top card of your deck; you may discard it. Then, +1 Card.

(See JoAT and Oracle for wording)

If you choose not to discard the top card, then you just draw it up, the same as putting it in your hand. If you do discard, then its also the same.

Nice that there's a village in the picture but otherwise doesn't fit in with the naming theme of other villagers however. Besides that, I really like the card. Nice little $4 village, those are always useful, not every card needs to do a lot.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2021, 12:06:47 pm by The Alchemist »
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DunnoItAll

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2021, 02:34:36 pm »
0



You can save a lot of text on Sojourn with this wording:

+2 Actions
Look at the top card of your deck; you may discard it. Then, +1 Card.

(See JoAT and Oracle for wording)

If you choose not to discard the top card, then you just draw it up, the same as putting it in your hand. If you do discard, then its also the same.

Nice that there's a village in the picture but otherwise doesn't fit in with the naming theme of other villagers however. Besides that, I really like the card. Nice little $4 village, those are always useful, not every card needs to do a lot.

A sojourn can mean a temporary residence, so I thought it fit well enough.
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kru5h

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2021, 01:34:25 pm »
+1

Quote
Craftsman, $5 Action
Choose one: Gain a card costing up to $4; or, if you have any unused Action, -1 Action and gain a card costing $5.

This card won a fan card mechanic design contest. Wording has been slightly improved from that version.

This is one of the best fan cards I've seen in years.

DunnoItAll

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2021, 06:14:01 pm »
0

Quote
Craftsman, $5 Action
Choose one: Gain a card costing up to $4; or, if you have any unused Action, -1 Action and gain a card costing $5.

This card won a fan card mechanic design contest. Wording has been slightly improved from that version.

This is one of the best fan cards I've seen in years.

I appreciate that.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2021, 07:20:23 pm »
+4

Quote
Craftsman, $5 Action
Choose one: Gain a card costing up to $4; or, if you have any unused Action, -1 Action and gain a card costing $5.

This card won a fan card mechanic design contest. Wording has been slightly improved from that version.

This is one of the best fan cards I've seen in years.

I appreciate that.

I would definitely try it at $4 if you haven't already. Without an extra action, it's just a Workshop. And with an extra action, it's a double-terminal.
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DunnoItAll

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2021, 11:09:13 am »
0

Quote
Craftsman, $5 Action
Choose one: Gain a card costing up to $4; or, if you have any unused Action, -1 Action and gain a card costing $5.

This card won a fan card mechanic design contest. Wording has been slightly improved from that version.

This is one of the best fan cards I've seen in years.

I appreciate that.

I would definitely try it at $4 if you haven't already. Without an extra action, it's just a Workshop. And with an extra action, it's a double-terminal.

Yes!  It's on my list of things to test.
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Udzu

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2022, 06:51:38 am »
0

This looks like a great expansion! Out of interest, how many Chickens, Eggs and Foods are there supposed to be? 10 like a normal Supply pile?
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2022, 10:32:36 pm »
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Ancient Laboratory (current Reserve version) doesnít need ďwhile this is on your tavern matĒ; see other Reserve cards for examples.
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DunnoItAll

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2022, 07:17:14 am »
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This looks like a great expansion! Out of interest, how many Chickens, Eggs and Foods are there supposed to be? 10 like a normal Supply pile?

Yes, 10 each.
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BryGuy

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Re: Dominion: Subterfuge
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2022, 02:46:25 pm »
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For Sojourn consider the wording: "+2 Actions; Review top deck card. Choose one: Put that card into your hand; or discard it and +1 Card."
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