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[WestCoastDidds]

What if the faction is led by an AI and the concerts are ancillaries. If it’s killed, would her ancillaries die, too?

[Glooble]

Is there anything else you can tell us about it hypercube?

The third faction could win alongside town, however if the leader dies all its members will be endgamed and die as well.

So, the third faction is a potential ally to town or a serious potential liability down the road. I'm not really sure how to approach the question of whether to hunt them or not.

@Glooble, emphasis mine

Thanks I missed that. This should probably inform how we see players defending other players. I know we often use that as a scumtell, especially in later days. But in this case it might not be.

What if the faction is led by an AI and the concerts are ancillaries. If it’s killed, would her ancillaries die, too?

Well, in the books an Ancillary can survive the death of it's ship (that's how we get Breq.)

[WestCoastDidds]

What if the faction is led by an AI and the converts are ancillaries. If it’s killed, would her ancillaries die, too?

Well, in the books an Ancillary can survive the death of it's ship (that's how we get Breq.)
[/quote]

Yeah, I thought about that but I couldn’t think of any other mechanic that killed the followers if the leader died. Do you have ideas? Maybe if a gate went down?

[hypercube]

The third faction is Anaander Mianaai, or at least their leader is. From my rudimentary research into the flavour it seems that this is some sort of communal intelligence, so this makes sense. Now I'm curious why Didds thought Anaander Mianaai was something else...

Holy cow, Hyper! That’s nuts. Thanks for not joining the dark side. So, we know there is Rachaii, Aanander, and a third party. I’m assuming the Presgar translators.

Glooble, I’m feeling you on the LaLight scummy vibe. SHe’s been far less engaged than I’ve known her to be.

Could the scum faction also be Anaander Mianaai? Someone else with flavour knowledge help me out here.

[WestCoastDidds]

I assumed scum was Aanander and her minions. That is who Breq fights in the book.

There are aliens from beyond the Ghost Gate (notai, I think) who still use human ancillaries and aliens from Presgar  who are more powerful than humans (and who have created a super powerful gun that can kill anything that us in Breq’s pissssion) but they are not enemies of the Radchaii. So I think aliens are the third party, but it doesn’t jive with the all die when the leader dies.

[SpaceAnemone]

I'm basically caught up now! I'll post thoughts in a bit.

@Hyper, sorry about your predicament. I think it could go either way with Anaander being scum. She's the head of the Radch, so should be very much Radch-aligned. There are lots of clones of her, all networked together to be one person, except that it doesn't quite work right, so there are factions within Anander. Also, so manages to annexe a non-Anaander at one point, but then Breq finds out and fixes her.

[SpaceAnemone]

Catch-up thought #1: Why weren't any of the people posting today before Joth did asking about why he's hated? I had originally asked myself "why is nobody talking about this", and then it seemed a bit odd that Joth himself had to end up being the one to bring it up.

[SpaceAnemone]

Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?

[Glooble]

Catch-up thought #1: Why weren't any of the people posting today before Joth did asking about why he's hated? I had originally asked myself "why is nobody talking about this", and then it seemed a bit odd that Joth himself had to end up being the one to bring it up.

I guess I just didn’t see the point in speculating about that? My first thought was it was ash’s power “whoever hammers my wagon gets hated the next day”. But then Ash has a whole kitchen sink of powers. Joth says it’s not innate and that makes sense - “hated day 2” is a weird power. The obvious conclusion is someone has the power to make someone hated. Sounds like a scum power, but I suppose it could be town?

After that it’s just WIFOM on who has that power and why they picked joth.

[SpaceAnemone]

I have a feeling, based on flavor, that alignment switching is not going to be voluntary. I suspect Aanander Mianani will have some kind of cult leader mechanic. Could be wrong of course.

I've never played a game with a Cult Leader, but is it pretty much just what Hyper has now described?

[Glooble]

Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?

We also need to consider the possibility that ash and e are both part of this third faction. It would explain a lot.

[SpaceAnemone]

Joth says it’s not innate and that makes sense

Yeah, but my point is that Joth didn't say it was not innate till quite a lot of posts had happened in the day, and nobody seemed to wonder about it in all that time. For me, it was in immediate question when I saw the day opener.

It combines with the double-hated thing Ash seems to have/have had on D1. Another odd thing is that Ash's hated wasn't broadcast in-thread at all, whereas Joth's is there for us all to know about.

[Glooble]

Given the sheer amount of weird stuff there was to talk about, I’m not surprised we glossed over something.

[hypercube]

I assumed scum was Aanander and her minions. That is who Breq fights in the book.

There are aliens from beyond the Ghost Gate (notai, I think) who still use human ancillaries and aliens from Presgar  who are more powerful than humans (and who have created a super powerful gun that can kill anything that us in Breq’s pissssion) but they are not enemies of the Radchaii. So I think aliens are the third party, but it doesn’t jive with the all die when the leader dies.

Again, I know from the message I received from faust that the leader of the third faction is Aanander. If scum is also Aanander, then I'm pretty sure that means that you're scum who slipped by revealing that you know scum's flavour.

Uh, remember this after I'm dead everyone! If a scum flips Aanander-aligned or something, lynch WCD.

[Glooble]

Anander literally fights herself in the books. And one faction of her is the primary villain. I don’t think WCD’s assumption is scummy in the least.

[hypercube]

Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?

We also need to consider the possibility that ash and e are both part of this third faction. It would explain a lot.

I thought about this too, but I don't think it makes sense. Well, I'm still not sure if it's pro-town to talk about this, but if I've figured something out this easily it's probably not super difficult for scum to do the same, so I guess I'll go ahead.

I think the leader is someone who had a strong town read on me yesterday. I assume that they can't recruit scum, since that would break the game. Trying to recruit scum almost certainly leads to to either a failure or the death of the leader, and therefore there's a strong incentive to recruit your strongest town reads. The other option would be that the scum would just die, but that seems way too strong. I don't think ash can be the leader, and I don't think E had a strong town read on me (unless she was pushing my wagon for most of yesterday insincerely).

This leads me to conclude that joth is the leader. She expressed a strong town read on me yesterday, and it would explain her behaviour, which I would categorize as being pro-town but also anxious about her survival.

joth, if I'm right, I think you should claim now. You're in a pretty bad position (sorry) so probably your best hope at this point is going to be to rely on town protection.

[hypercube]

Anander literally fights herself in the books. And one faction of her is the primary villain. I don’t think WCD’s assumption is scummy in the least.

Ah, OK. Sorry Didds, I probably shouldn't try to scumhunt based on flavour I'm not familiar with.

[Haddock]

Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?

We also need to consider the possibility that ash and e are both part of this third faction. It would explain a lot.

I thought about this too, but I don't think it makes sense. Well, I'm still not sure if it's pro-town to talk about this, but if I've figured something out this easily it's probably not super difficult for scum to do the same, so I guess I'll go ahead.

I think the leader is someone who had a strong town read on me yesterday. I assume that they can't recruit scum, since that would break the game. Trying to recruit scum almost certainly leads to to either a failure or the death of the leader, and therefore there's a strong incentive to recruit your strongest town reads. The other option would be that the scum would just die, but that seems way too strong. I don't think ash can be the leader, and I don't think E had a strong town read on me (unless she was pushing my wagon for most of yesterday insincerely).

This leads me to conclude that joth is the leader. She expressed a strong town read on me yesterday, and it would explain her behaviour, which I would categorize as being pro-town but also anxious about her survival.

joth, if I'm right, I think you should claim now. You're in a pretty bad position (sorry) so probably your best hope at this point is going to be to rely on town protection.

This is one of the most fascinatingly bold predictions I've ever seen apropos of nothing in a mafia game.  I freaking love it and very much want it to be true.


OK normal service resumes, I'm gonna reread a bit.

[Haddock]

Ok in light of this new information, e, can you confirm that ash is Radch-aligned, or did your investigative result say something along the lines of "not an enemy of the radch"? Could ash be the recruiter or some other third faction?

unvote  I like this post, I'm not sure it's something scum thinks about. 

Think I like vote:Robz, at least until she comes and does something.  She's not VLA right?

Catch-up thought #1: Why weren't any of the people posting today before Joth did asking about why he's hated? I had originally asked myself "why is nobody talking about this", and then it seemed a bit odd that Joth himself had to end up being the one to bring it up.

This is a really bizarre thing to get hung up on.  Why would we spend time speculating on that?  It's an RMM, these things are basically never understandable.

Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?

Also somewhat bizarre?  We can probably largely agree that ash's play was not quite the right one, especially in retrospect, but that doesn't mean she's scum; town make mistakes, even ash.   How can you be so confident ash is scum that you are starting to question e's result?  I mean, sure we should take e's result with a pinch of salt, but, eh.   Surely it's enough to leave ash alone for now, especially in light of some way more interesting stuff going on.

[SpaceAnemone]

Surely it's enough to leave ash alone for now, especially in light of some way more interesting stuff going on.

Hey, c'mon, I did say that the string of stuff I posted was the notes I'd taken during my re-read. I was just about lurking along with a little of the earlier day, but had too much going on at work to be able to keep up, let along engage and post. Just because I'm a bit late to the party doesn't mean I can't give my take on things, especially given that I'm also responding to more recent stuff, so it's not that I'm trying to change the subject away from the "way more interesting things" or anything like that.

[Haddock]

Surely it's enough to leave ash alone for now, especially in light of some way more interesting stuff going on.

Hey, c'mon, I did say that the string of stuff I posted was the notes I'd taken during my re-read. I was just about lurking along with a little of the earlier day, but had too much going on at work to be able to keep up, let along engage and post. Just because I'm a bit late to the party doesn't mean I can't give my take on things, especially given that I'm also responding to more recent stuff, so it's not that I'm trying to change the subject away from the "way more interesting things" or anything like that.

Totally fine, that's cool.  Just, y'know, opinionating on your opinions.

[Robz888]

Hey everybody, I've had an absolutely INSANE couple of days work wise and am hopelessly behind at the moment. Won't have time to catch up until tomorrow at least.

[jotheonah]

Ash being town seems kind of plausible, though I still don't like yesterday's choice of shot when one of the main people pushing that wagon -- me -- was specifically pushing it with the agenda that all other things being equal, mcmc was the least bad of the set, and we had to lynch someone. That is a world away from "town needs to lynch this person because they're scummy", which is how Ash is presenting his action.

@e, how confident are you that you can't have been redirected, and that your result can't come from a godfather or some mechanism similar to that?

We also need to consider the possibility that ash and e are both part of this third faction. It would explain a lot.

I thought about this too, but I don't think it makes sense. Well, I'm still not sure if it's pro-town to talk about this, but if I've figured something out this easily it's probably not super difficult for scum to do the same, so I guess I'll go ahead.

I think the leader is someone who had a strong town read on me yesterday. I assume that they can't recruit scum, since that would break the game. Trying to recruit scum almost certainly leads to to either a failure or the death of the leader, and therefore there's a strong incentive to recruit your strongest town reads. The other option would be that the scum would just die, but that seems way too strong. I don't think ash can be the leader, and I don't think E had a strong town read on me (unless she was pushing my wagon for most of yesterday insincerely).

This leads me to conclude that joth is the leader. She expressed a strong town read on me yesterday, and it would explain her behaviour, which I would categorize as being pro-town but also anxious about her survival.

joth, if I'm right, I think you should claim now. You're in a pretty bad position (sorry) so probably your best hope at this point is going to be to rely on town protection.

Swing and a miss. Sorry. Or ... not sorry?

[WestCoastDidds]

Anander literally fights herself in the books. And one faction of her is the primary villain. I don’t think WCD’s assumption is scummy in the least.

Ah, OK. Sorry Didds, I probably shouldn't try to scumhunt based on flavour I'm not familiar with.

No worries.

There are are lots of Aananders in the book, some that are Breq is working for an some she is working against. If you are confused, its because it is confusing, not because I am scummy. The whole point of me talking about the book is to try to help flesh out what we might be dealing with.

I know that the Radchaii that Breq represents are what we know is town. These Radchaii started as part of Aanander and believe that the empire has expanded enough and that humans employees should be used to staff the ships instead of ancillaries of the AIs (conquered humans whose brains have been replaced with AI connections- corpse warriors). Everything else I am uncertain about.

There are three possibilities that I can think of for either third party or scum.
1. The other side of Aanander Minaii who want to keep expanding and conquering. In the book there are characters who follow this part if Aanander like Hetnys, the religious leader whose name I forget, and Tisserwat until she gets changed
2. The Presgar- aliens who built this super powerful gun and who have the capability to wipe out humans, but are bound by a treaty not to. There are two Presgar translaters who interact/work with Breq in the books
3. The Notai, who are in a ship beyond the ghost gate. They have been buying human bodies to use for ancillaries that were stolen and sold illegally by  Hetnys (I think).

Glooble, space, anyone else who has read the books....please feel free to correct or amend.

If Aanander tried to recruit Hyper and is about to kill him, it must be the expansionist Aanander. Interestingly, I think Hetnys (Asher) would be in that faction.  So, e and Ash together in the faction is an interesting possibility, for sure, and is kind of genius, right?

[mail-mi]

I don't want to derail anything, but at the same time I don't see any reason to delay this, so I'm going to claim now. I don't think this should really impact how we play out the rest of the Day anyways.

I have been targeted for an alignment change. I have decided not to accept this change, and consequently I will die at the end of the Day. I have made this decision since I am a VT, and I think that publicizing this information and dying gives me a better chance of winning than does changing my alignment.

The alignment change would transfer me to a faction which is not considered an enemy of the Radch. The win condition of this faction is for all enemies of the Radch to be eliminated, and for a certain player (whose identity I do not know) to survive. This unknown player must be the only surviving Anaander Mianaai for this faction to win. I do not know if joining the faction would make me an Anaander Mianaai, or whether multiple Anaander Mianaai of different factions currently exist.

I just read over Hypercube's post again, and this is noteworthy. Do you think there's more than one Anaander Miannai out there? This would make sense, and from what y'all've said about the flavor, that also makes sense.