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[faust]

I just fail to see the different. Other than I never wanted to find 3 people we will lynch from.

Omg I'm not taking the time to pull quotes, maybe later but you supported jakes plan to find a concencus three people that everyone would and then limit the vote pool to those thee people. I know because it's what I spent almost all day one yelling at Jake for proposing and saying we should just let cases come naturally via reads and you argued with me about it!!!!

Jeezus other townines want to chime in here, I'm done going back and forth with Faust on this, you are a good player, you will have a defense however bad and scummy to everything I say and you are robzfuscating my case on you by making it harder for people to follow the actual points. You are playing a great active scummy game.

Like I said before, I supported Jake's plan because I wanted to encourage the more pro-town way of playing I was seeing from him and because I thought it would be insightful to see scum scum reads posted, not because I actually wanted to limit the lynch pool to these. Thinking that something like this would ever work is quite naive.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

I don't know who I want to lynch. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Maybe you, after all. I don't feel that great about EFHW anymore, she did have that towny thing with the Robz wagon.

Vote: TWM

Making me feel really good about asking questions here.

What's that supposed to mean? I did answer your question, no? Should I have been nicer about thinking you're scum?

I had hoped you would explain your thinking and approach. You are right that you answered my question. I should have asked another question and been more clear. The question I really wanted answered had to do with what your approach is and why it makes sense? That is what I am trying to understand. Not just what you are doing, but why you are doing it and whether it makes sense and I am just trying to understand that.

I don't really mind the vote. But I would hope that you would be willing to let me ask questions and try and figure out how to better play this game.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Plus throughout the game you have been a real downer whenever I have tried to ask questions or probe for answers. I feel like you want me to be an expert at this game when it just isn't possible for me to be one at this point.

[mcmcsalot]

An RR lynch just does not give us much to go on going forward even if he flips scum. His partner are probably willing to bus him because really RR is going to get lynched at some point anyway and so the interactions of an RR wagon are mostly useless.

One could still lynch RR in the end, but it's better to spend the mid-day with wagons that are more insightful.

So do you actually want to lynch EFHW or just voting for there for insight to see if you will want to vote for EFHW? I am sorry if I am being dumb here, but I feel like you are playing a different game than me. Maybe that is just inexperience talking, so I am trying to give you the benefit of doubt here, but this just seems to be a sneaky way to operate.

I think you are getting a bit hung up. It is understandable that if he thinks EFHW/ash/rr are scum rr is going to be much less impactful of a scum player than EFHW or ash therefor he wants to go after them instead. I think it is scummy however to make statements like the bolded one above and trying to set up multiple lynches. So I think it's scummy with a town rational which is why he did it.

"Setting up multiple lynches"? How is saying that scum!RR always gets lynched setting up multiple lynches?

Look at the two bolded statements...yes saying he always gets lynched isn't setting up multiple lynches, saying he is going to get lynched is GAHHHH YOU ARE SO SCUMMMMMYYYYY

[ashersky]

I'm not sure Faust looks scummier after this prolonged engagement with mom salon.

[ashersky]

So, mostly just reading along and my town reads on Awa, mom salon, and gkrieg remain.

Ironically, Faust keeps moving from outright scummy to oddly scummy.

RR, EFHW, Jake, TWM are all lynchable.

And then someone is clearly forgettable as that only makes eight reads.

[ashersky]

Oh, right, the SKIC.  He is ignorable, I guess.

[faust]

Plus throughout the game you have been a real downer whenever I have tried to ask questions or probe for answers. I feel like you want me to be an expert at this game when it just isn't possible for me to be one at this point.

I think you are a lot better at it than you make yourself out to be.

Also when I started here, it was always a downer for me when people didn't treat me seriously because I was "just a newbie". I thought of giving you the same treatment as everyone else as a sign of respect. Sorry if it hasn't been received that way.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Plus throughout the game you have been a real downer whenever I have tried to ask questions or probe for answers. I feel like you want me to be an expert at this game when it just isn't possible for me to be one at this point.

I think you are a lot better at it than you make yourself out to be.

Also when I started here, it was always a downer for me when people didn't treat me seriously because I was "just a newbie". I thought of giving you the same treatment as everyone else as a sign of respect. Sorry if it hasn't been received that way.

Well I don't know if I am any good is kind of the question for me at this point. Like, are my reads any good? I don't know until people are lynched or we reach the end of the game. Like, I don't have a baseline. I don't know if the approach I am taking is working or not. So I am trying to see how other people are doing it, even if I don't know if they are town or not because I am assuming they are at least trying to mimic their approach if they are mafia and see if their approach is one I want to use.

And you haven't been disrespectful. You have been fine. But it is frustrating when me trying to figure out how to play the game is seen as something scummy. I guess it is understandable and part of the game, so I don't really blame you for it, but it is still frustrating. Maybe I just need to play and then ask the questions at the end of the game?

[faust]

I had hoped you would explain your thinking and approach. You are right that you answered my question. I should have asked another question and been more clear. The question I really wanted answered had to do with what your approach is and why it makes sense? That is what I am trying to understand. Not just what you are doing, but why you are doing it and whether it makes sense and I am just trying to understand that.

I don't really mind the vote. But I would hope that you would be willing to let me ask questions and try and figure out how to better play this game.

Okay, trying to answer. It's all about the long game. We might lynch RR today, he might be scum. Okay, great. But where does that leave us? We still need to find two other scums. And I just don't think an RR lynch helps us doing that. Even if RR is scum, two more scums are out there. I think finding one of them is much better. And given that I have quite a few town reads the chances of hitting another scum aren't all bad.

RR is the kind of scum player that scum wants to sacrifice at some point. When I draw scum, I look at my team to see who of them is expendable. That person I won't bother defending or bussing artificially hard unless the game situation really calls for it. Basically I want my read on them to be as natural as possible, and if that means they end up being lynched, fine. RR is likely to end up being that person (though this also depends on stuff like PRs).

I'm jumpy because I want to find the other scumhunting. Scumhunting is like an iterative algorithm for me. I place a vote, look what happens. When I'm voting the next time, my reads are already a better approximation of who is actually scum. THen I continue. Sometimes there's a recent thing that I find super scummy, and then voting there is a good way to see wo thinks the same. But then I think about that player more and maybe I remember something that makes them look townie, and I realize that that one post isn't really enough to justify a lynch. The vote was a bit overly spontaneous, but since that leads to good interactions, I don't force myself to be more restrained.

[mcmcsalot]

I'm not sure Faust looks scummier after this prolonged engagement with mom salon.

And I shall here on out refer to him as faust the faustibusterer

[The_Wine_Merchant]

OK. Thanks for answering. I think I get what you are getting at. In my mind I see RR-Jake being partners and a correct lynch on one I think would be indicative of the other. But if you don't see that being likely or possible, I guess I can understand why you might take that approach.

And maybe I am psyching myself out a bit and being attracted to what I think I can better understand. You and EFHW and mcmcsalot and ashersky are all somewhat blending together a bit with posts that sound good and have substance but that contradict each other and are difficult to parse to what the alignment is underneath. Whereas Jake and RR I feel like I can more easily see through them and they look like mafia. Like I don't feel confident about my reads on you four very much at all. I see one post that looks mafia like, then I see another that looks town like and a bunch I just don't even know how to read. But just about everything from Jake and RR get my attention.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

So I guess I'll try to look at those individuals that I have been null on the last few days:


 - ashersky -

Hard to get anything out of Day1
Mostly faust-robz partners pushing

Changes from partners to faust-robz partnering. He has had kind of a slow fade-out away from that, with multiple posts stating it, but never actually unvoting. Almost feels like he is testing the waters. But I don't know what he would be testing.

 - EFHW -

I had forgotten that I was suspicious of EFHW early on Day1.
Has a post about not wanting to emotionally unvote Robz that I am finding townie
I think had a very similar approach to me for the Robz wagon when it picked back up again
I think others have said this and this is why I am picking up on it, but was very much shooting down other possible wagons toward the end of day1. Shoots down mcmcsalot, shoots down faust, but mildly tries to keep the gkrieg wagon alive.

Is on a similar page to me early on Jake and RR.
not a big fan of the case on gkrieg probably because the reason for the vote looks like using logic for something that I did that was very similar and I think a weak reason to suspect someone

 - mcmcasalot -

Obviously big story is being absent for good portions. That taints everything.
I like that he changed the focus in day1 and didn't give three reads and still think the idea that he caused chaos is pure crap.
Seems to get caught up in one-on-one arguments with specific individuals. Is this just a character trait? I feel like this would be less likely from scum as most of these arguments leave the other person not with the best feelings toward him.
Has also very much zeroed in on faust but was gone for all of end of day1, so couldn't see anything there.

Didn't really like him relying on a case from the previous day and start of day2.
I agree with only a handful of mcmc's post from day2. Apparently we are seeing things very differently

 - faust -

I am seeing mcmcsalot's posts about changing from joseph. I can see what mcmcsalot is saying, but I am not sure I totally agree with it. I feel like L-1 is an ok place to be for scum, but not necessarily the best spot. L-2 or L-3 I think would be "safer" if it had gone toward a lynch, I think. So if faust wanted to join to really get a lynch I think he would have done so earlier. It is worth noting that he L-1ed immediately after my vote. So I think either way, he saw what he thought was a good point (which it wasn't now that we know Joseph's alignment) and did what he did as town or did what he would as town
Changes opinions again on Robz, ends up hammering him. After hearing from faust just barely, this looks more like long-game logic.
Lots of moving around as we got closer to deadline. At first I thought this looked like he was trying to stop any wagons from growing, but when I went back it looked like he was trying to find alternatives to Robz and only hammered for long game?

Has moved around a lot day2 as has been stated.
I don't get why he has been so insistent that jake couldn't be mafia. Seems too confident in that regard.
I do feel like he is spinning me as mafia in a slightly unfair way. But we already talked about that.
Lots of rereads on people. So that is nice to know he is doing work.


I tried to read Awaclus. But really, the guy is being an enigma, which from his posts appears to be his goal. I don't have a clue what to think about him. I keep waiting for a moment to clear where I will understand him better, but it just isn't coming.


So to rank them in some manner I would put ashersky as probably the scummiest, followed by EFHW and then faust/mcmcsalot are combined for townier, but honestly, not super townie. Everyone is still kind of murky here. And I would still rather go for RR/Jake as I feel like what I get what I see from them.

[EFHW]

Comments in bold.

Ok a full reread of EFHW (this one is actually a reread!)
snipped ... Joseph ... mcmc ... Robz.  Not much to say here, except that mcmc's complaint about going back to RVS is the kind of pro-town thing scum like to do.

...
I don't like the way he called Awaclus a liar.  Both because it's unfair and because I can read it as towny or scummy.

Even after the Robz vote, she is unsure of his alignment. Of course I'm unsure, I'm town!

I mostly believe Robz and Awaclus. Don't want to unvote at this point, tho.

Now this is scummy.  If she believes both of them, why not unvote? I did explain this later as a reaction to my recent past games with Robz.

I'll go with vote:gkrieg. His "I'm not paying attention" thing is starting to feel like an act.

I thought he brought up a really good point about Robz previously pushing for claimed PR lynch as mafia. He would have had to have been paying attention to notice that.

Right. I think it's an act. I think scum!gkrieg came up with that observation of Robz, given how he continued to push it after doubt had been created.

This is part of her reasoning.  The only problem is that she also came up with this theory, or at least went with it:

It seemed to me that Robz did think Awaclus was soft-claiming, because he asked if Awaclus was staying on Joseph. The problem is the similarity of his arguments here with his arguments in past games in which he got PRs mislynched.

So how can she say that scum!me "came up with an observation" when she agreed with it!
The observation was accurate.  My interpretation of your motives changed, or at least I realized your making that observation was compatible with a scum!gkrieg narrative if Robz was town. Part of my suspicion of you came about because after Robz had presented his defense, you restated your theory without acknowledging it.  This seemed like you were trying to push through his lynch no matter what.
...

vote: EFHW using faust's previously stated suspicion to vote for gkrieg on an overstated point.

I feel like you still don't get my point.  I'm not saying he isn't paying attention.  I'm saying he is projecting a disengaged attitude in an attempt to seem like town.  I can also see a a very plausible scum narrative for his case against Robz.

I am using faust's suggestion, as well.  But I won't vote Awaclus, who I think is town, and whom he also fingered with suspicion.

She keeps going after this scum narrative for my case against Robz, which I will once again point out, she agreed with! That's not a contradiction.  See above.

TWM, who do you think is scum, besides me, at this point?  Still think Robz?

I still think there is a relatively high chance of Robz being mafia. RoadRunner is still on my radar, but everyone seems to just be giving him a pass for some reason.
snip ...

I'm open to a Calamitas lynch, or mcmc. I think we generally want to let RR and Jake live to Day 2 because they always are getting mislynched Day 1. The pass is both for their sakes and because it has become considered scummy to vote for them Day 1.

Here, she seems overly cautious to vote for someone who it is considered scummy to vote for. No, I was responding to TWM's question about why did RR seem to be getting a pass.

Your points about Robz are plausible, though. I won't rule out a Robz vote.

Then she kind of does this 180 on Robz again. I really wasn't sure what Robz was.  I could see both narratives.  That's why I decided to vote him, because I knew we would all be so scared of his being scum that we, or at least I, would bounce back and forth until there was a flip, cluttering and confusing the game.

I don't want to lynch mcmc at this point.  The contributions he did make were towny, and I didn't get the feeling he had any particular agenda.

She also does this 180 on mcmcsalot, right at the crucial point where pivoting her attention off of him ensures that the wagons are all on townies.  This is also a reason that doesn't really mean anything. This is me weighing in on a proposed lynch so town knows I'm not likely to support it.

Need to grab quotes and I need to go to sleep so will wait till morning to post my full case but i am going to vote: faust as he believed joseph was towny before his claim when I think he almost certainly looked scummy and he has repeatedly supported jake's plan to narrow the lynch pool which I think is much more scummy then jakes very damaging but I think town inspired plan.

I'm interested to see your case, but this close to deadline, voting off the 3 existing wagons probably isn't very helpful.

Then she continues to try to get votes only onto the wagons that already exist. 
Would there have been a faust lynch? No.  Was there a real possibility of a no lynch?  Yes.  That's what I was thinking.

Weird that the gkrieg lynch isn't happening, given so many people expressed willingness to vote him. A possible sign he is scum. If it's not going to happen, I'll switch my vote to Robz.

Then she kind of locks in that she is going to vote for Robz, even after her whole case on me is that my case on Robz was scum motivated.  Like if she really believes that, why would she ever vote for him?
see above. Also, I don't know you are scum.  Day 1 scum reads often contradict.  You know that.  I thought Robz was probably town, but I couldn't be sure and, as I have already said several times, I thought it would be a reasonable use of the lynch for town to know his flip rather than keeping him alive in all his ambiguity.

[EFHW]

Regarding my comment to mcmc about his faust vote, I remember I was also disappointed that he wasn't supporting the gkrieg wagon, and even more so when after I posted I realized he had left the gkrieg wagon to vote faust.  That's why I said three wagons but it seemed like there were only two after he voted.

[JaketheBaseballGod22]

Vote: Faust Just catching up and still won't be super active till Sunday night but I did a quick reread on Faust and have now been convinced of his scumminess.

[schadd]

Request Prod on anyone eligible for Prod

none sent

[LaLight]

Vote Count 2.6

faust (3): ashersky, mcmcsalot, JaketheBaseballGod22
JaketheBaseballGod22 (2): The_Wine_Merchant, Awaclus
EFHW (1): gkrieg13
gkrieg13 (2): EFHW, Joseph2302
The_Wine_Merchant (1): faust

Not voting (1): Roadrunner7671


With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends Jan. 16th at 12pm forum time

[Joseph2302]

Vote Count 2.6

faust (3): ashersky, mcmcsalot, JaketheBaseballGod22
JaketheBaseballGod22 (2): The_Wine_Merchant, Awaclus
EFHW (1): gkrieg13
gkrieg13 (2): EFHW, Joseph2302
The_Wine_Merchant (1): faust

Not voting (1): Roadrunner7671


With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends Jan. 16th at 12pm forum time

So 2.5 days to go. And biggest wagon is my biggest town read

[EFHW]

I would be fine with a Robz lynch, an Awaclus lynch.  Not really feeling mcmc or RR.

Just found this. It comes 5 posts before my statement about not wanting to lynch mcmc, yet gkrieg has been accusing me of trying to deflect from an mcmc lynch.

[EFHW]

faust, first you said this:

I think gkrieg/Awaclus is a good place to look for scum.

...

[EFHW]

Then several pages later on the same day you said this:

I think things sort of died down after this. I really don't like what Awaclus did here. In fact, I don't like this whole game from Awaclus.

What don't you like about it?

It's hard to talk about.

Part of it is that town!Awaclus usually reads people the same way I do, and I don't see that here.

Well that is not going to be a good enough reason for me to vote for him.

Well I cannot talk about the rest. But there is also stuff that makes me think Awaclus is probably not a good lynch for today.

What changed?

[faust]

Then several pages later on the same day you said this:

I think things sort of died down after this. I really don't like what Awaclus did here. In fact, I don't like this whole game from Awaclus.

What don't you like about it?

It's hard to talk about.

Part of it is that town!Awaclus usually reads people the same way I do, and I don't see that here.

Well that is not going to be a good enough reason for me to vote for him.

Well I cannot talk about the rest. But there is also stuff that makes me think Awaclus is probably not a good lynch for today.

What changed?

See that?

[faust]

I will let you know once talking about it is a good idea.

[EFHW]

Here's an idea: Let's look at pairs of three.

Jake: Robz, gkrieg, EFHW
faust: gkrieg, Awaclus, RR
Awaclus: Robz, gkrieg, Jake
This really does not leave me with a good feeling at all. I don't know if Awaclus has previously suspected gkrieg, but if not then this is just too convenient. And the other two reads I just don't agree with at all.
TWM: EFHW, Calamitas, mcmc
Very nonconformist. I like it.
Robz: Awaclus, Idplay/ashersky, gkrieg
Joseph: gkrieg, Awaclus, Idplay/ahsersky

I think things sort of died down after this. I really don't like what Awaclus did here. In fact, I don't like this whole game from Awaclus.

On the same page you said this!