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[mcmcsalot]

Also I need to reread gkriegs case on EFHW as well as what was the township you are referring to?

[faust]

Also I need to reread gkriegs case on EFHW as well as what was the township you are referring to?

Him not realizing that Calamitas has been nightkilled.

[Awaclus]

So this looks scummy to me, I think awac is lurking pretty hard himself so super weird to call jake out for calling rr out about it.

No, I'm the exact opposite of acti-lurking. I haven't posted that much, but all of my posts have something worthwhile in them. If you look at Jake's posts, he has posted a ton, but not all that much of it is useful.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

While I'm glad you no longer think I'm scummy in 20 posts you go from me/rr/TWM to being less worried about scum!rr than scum!efhw and scum!ash? Ash and EFHW are like my strongest town reads at this point so what up with this?

So here's the thing: I have town reads. They are Joseph, Jake, gkrieg, Awaclus. The rest is scummy territory, and I'm trying to figure out who makes sense as scum. When I say I'm more worried about scum!EFHW than scum!RR, I don't mean I think EFHW is more likely to be scum, I mean that if EFHW is scum, she poses a bigger threat to us than RR does if he is scum.

Can you explain what maeks EFHW and ash such strong townread for you?

The post that mcmc referenced is the one that jumped out to me as well. And I am still not sure I like your response either. Why not just vote for who you think is most likely to be mafia? How big of a difference can the threat from one be to the other? More than the difference in how you read them? I would get it, if you thought they were equally likely to be mafia.

[Awaclus]

Not to mention that I had a reason for keeping low profile D1 because I didn't want to stand out as a PR, and now I have a reason to not be the driving force behind the game because everyone knows that I'm a PR.

[faust]

You would be willing because it ends day one early and lynches town!!!!

I talked extensively to robz about this. People think the most important thing for scum is looking towny and that they are willing to bus early and never want to join two wagons late. In reality scum wants most of all to lynch town. If town is lynched scum isn't and that's the way scum wins most of the time, getting a lynch on town.

That would be true, except an L-1 wagon that early on leads to a lynch maybe 10% of the time. That's just not a prospect that seems worth the risk.

That's an outrageous statistic, yea day one is the day we make the most wagons and those wagons often don't lead to a lynch because the person in question claims and we believe them. You know what else scum wants, to know what roles everyone has. Win win.

I guess I just don't get your point that people who found Joseph towny are scummy and people who voted for him are scummy too.

[mcmcsalot]

Also I need to reread gkriegs case on EFHW as well as what was the township you are referring to?

Him not realizing that Calamitas has been nightkilled.

Oh yea, so I have to check who is in the game and alive pretty evenly when I am scum and when I am town, I'm not sure that says much. Yea I mean if anything I think it's unlikely town or scum makes that mistake so slight chance he made the mistake on purpose hoping it would look towny.

As for his actual case on EFHW, it starts with a read on EFHW based on me being scum since the other two wagons he says were on town. This makes sense from his reads but I obviously know I'm not scum and I don't know why he finds awa so towny. Then he finds EFHW scummy for urging people to stay on the mislynches, and that's a valid point if we knew both wagons would be mislynches but we don't, and the way EFHW said it sounded pretty much like hey mcmc I like you case but you should pay attention to the current wagons.

So I don't really agree with this case.

[faust]

While I'm glad you no longer think I'm scummy in 20 posts you go from me/rr/TWM to being less worried about scum!rr than scum!efhw and scum!ash? Ash and EFHW are like my strongest town reads at this point so what up with this?

So here's the thing: I have town reads. They are Joseph, Jake, gkrieg, Awaclus. The rest is scummy territory, and I'm trying to figure out who makes sense as scum. When I say I'm more worried about scum!EFHW than scum!RR, I don't mean I think EFHW is more likely to be scum, I mean that if EFHW is scum, she poses a bigger threat to us than RR does if he is scum.

Can you explain what maeks EFHW and ash such strong townread for you?

The post that mcmc referenced is the one that jumped out to me as well. And I am still not sure I like your response either. Why not just vote for who you think is most likely to be mafia? How big of a difference can the threat from one be to the other? More than the difference in how you read them? I would get it, if you thought they were equally likely to be mafia.

An RR lynch just does not give us much to go on going forward even if he flips scum. His partner are probably willing to bus him because really RR is going to get lynched at some point anyway and so the interactions of an RR wagon are mostly useless.

One could still lynch RR in the end, but it's better to spend the mid-day with wagons that are more insightful.

[mcmcsalot]

So this looks scummy to me, I think awac is lurking pretty hard himself so super weird to call jake out for calling rr out about it.

No, I'm the exact opposite of acti-lurking. I haven't posted that much, but all of my posts have something worthwhile in them. If you look at Jake's posts, he has posted a ton, but not all that much of it is useful.

Gotcha acti-lurk vs actual lurk, I think jake is trying to be useful he just isn't. Though today has been much more uselessness and less badness so I can see that

[faust]

Also I need to reread gkriegs case on EFHW as well as what was the township you are referring to?

Him not realizing that Calamitas has been nightkilled.

Oh yea, so I have to check who is in the game and alive pretty evenly when I am scum and when I am town, I'm not sure that says much. Yea I mean if anything I think it's unlikely town or scum makes that mistake so slight chance he made the mistake on purpose hoping it would look towny.

What? As scum, you talk all night over who you should kill, so it's pretty obvious that you are more likely to remember who you ended up killing. I can't really understand how you don't see that.

[mcmcsalot]

Not to mention that I had a reason for keeping low profile D1 because I didn't want to stand out as a PR, and now I have a reason to not be the driving force behind the game because everyone knows that I'm a PR.

Not convinced your claim is true and I think you may be acti-actual-lurking knowing you have this defense lined up. I don't think just because you claimed yesterday that means your best way to help town is have a low profile.

[mcmcsalot]

Also I need to reread gkriegs case on EFHW as well as what was the township you are referring to?

Him not realizing that Calamitas has been nightkilled.

Oh yea, so I have to check who is in the game and alive pretty evenly when I am scum and when I am town, I'm not sure that says much. Yea I mean if anything I think it's unlikely town or scum makes that mistake so slight chance he made the mistake on purpose hoping it would look towny.

What? As scum, you talk all night over who you should kill, so it's pretty obvious that you are more likely to remember who you ended up killing. I can't really understand how you don't see that.

Sorry as town and scum I need to check who is alive when I make a reads post or decide to re-read all the time. It's not like he opened the day voting calamitous or something, like I said I don't really think it means anything.

[faust]

Then he finds EFHW scummy for urging people to stay on the mislynches, and that's a valid point if we knew both wagons would be mislynches but we don't, and the way EFHW said it sounded pretty much like hey mcmc I like you case but you should pay attention to the current wagons.

come on these are the only wagons we can make work traps. I think not only is scum likely to make those kind of statements [...]

But you do see that these two posts contradict each other?

[The_Wine_Merchant]

While I'm glad you no longer think I'm scummy in 20 posts you go from me/rr/TWM to being less worried about scum!rr than scum!efhw and scum!ash? Ash and EFHW are like my strongest town reads at this point so what up with this?

So here's the thing: I have town reads. They are Joseph, Jake, gkrieg, Awaclus. The rest is scummy territory, and I'm trying to figure out who makes sense as scum. When I say I'm more worried about scum!EFHW than scum!RR, I don't mean I think EFHW is more likely to be scum, I mean that if EFHW is scum, she poses a bigger threat to us than RR does if he is scum.

Can you explain what maeks EFHW and ash such strong townread for you?

The post that mcmc referenced is the one that jumped out to me as well. And I am still not sure I like your response either. Why not just vote for who you think is most likely to be mafia? How big of a difference can the threat from one be to the other? More than the difference in how you read them? I would get it, if you thought they were equally likely to be mafia.

An RR lynch just does not give us much to go on going forward even if he flips scum. His partner are probably willing to bus him because really RR is going to get lynched at some point anyway and so the interactions of an RR wagon are mostly useless.

One could still lynch RR in the end, but it's better to spend the mid-day with wagons that are more insightful.

So do you actually want to lynch EFHW or just voting for there for insight to see if you will want to vote for EFHW? I am sorry if I am being dumb here, but I feel like you are playing a different game than me. Maybe that is just inexperience talking, so I am trying to give you the benefit of doubt here, but this just seems to be a sneaky way to operate.

[mcmcsalot]

Then he finds EFHW scummy for urging people to stay on the mislynches, and that's a valid point if we knew both wagons would be mislynches but we don't, and the way EFHW said it sounded pretty much like hey mcmc I like you case but you should pay attention to the current wagons.

come on these are the only wagons we can make work traps. I think not only is scum likely to make those kind of statements [...]

But you do see that these two posts contradict each other?

Yea since you keep scummily taking out my context. When EFHW said that I did not take it as you and gkrieg have as "only vote for these people" I took it as "Hey super glad you are here and have thought but maybe take a look at the wagons we are actually about to lynch instead of starting a whole new case right now." She even goes on to vote rr at one point after which isn't one of the main wagons. The "come on these are the only wagons we can lynch" statement was referring to people like jake and you supporting early on to try and find a consensus 3 people we will lynch from.

[Awaclus]

Not to mention that I had a reason for keeping low profile D1 because I didn't want to stand out as a PR, and now I have a reason to not be the driving force behind the game because everyone knows that I'm a PR.

Not convinced your claim is true and I think you may be acti-actual-lurking knowing you have this defense lined up. I don't think just because you claimed yesterday that means your best way to help town is have a low profile.

Well, I'm probably going to be an IC eventually unless I'm killed, so for that reason alone, it's better if I'm not that vocal about my reads. Furthermore, I might or might not have a RB shot left, and whether or not I have the shot is something that scum would surely want to know, and knowing exactly what kinds of reads I have would help scum figure that out. What's more, if and only if I still have the shot left, scum might also want to know who I would use it on so that they know what abilities of theirs they should use, and again, my reads are crucial there as well, so for that reason also, I have to not be too vocal about my reads regardless of whether or not I still have the shot because otherwise I would be giving away that information again.

Since we're talking about a fairly weak town role, the benefits are probably marginal, but I believe they're there regardless.

[gkrieg13]

Ok a full reread of EFHW (this one is actually a reread!)

I think this is town!Joseph. Remember that time he did weird stuff in a neighborhood, and got mislynched? I agree with faust that this was too involved to be a scum!plot.

She defends Joseph (which I don't think is scummy, I just remember you guys giving me a scum read because of it (I'm looking at you faust))

It's RVs, and we're not doing anything else at the moment.

vote: Joseph saying things like this is what makes rvs last longer, in fact I think Faust was just getting us out of it and I think it's scummy to act like nothing being said is important.

vote: mcmc. He's lurking and the above post is kind of too pro-town, and also incorrect since Joseph started his thing before faust voted gkrieg.

btw, hi mcmc!

She then votes for mcmcsalot, with strange reasoning.

And vote: Robz again.

I cannot imagine this sentiment (lynching a claimed UB without counterclaim) coming from town!Robz unless he is UB or Mason.

I agree, but I still not see a narrative that makes sense for robz. If he is actually a UB he is going to get killed due to his behavior anyways, in that regard it's identical to a claim. If we actually lynch Joseph and he flips town, robz is going to be under heaviest suspicion. Neither scum!robz nor non-mason/UB!robz would want that.

Scum!Robz would expect to be able to talk his way out of being lynched Day 2, since he's done so before.  So I don't think this argument holds in this case.

vote: Robz

Then she votes for Robz

Liar liar liar. You were the one doing that. I said definitively we should lynch him in lieu of a counterclaim, and then you raised the possibility that maybe the real UB was keeping quiet.

I didn't pay enough attention to keep track of who had already posted after Joseph's claim, I just wanted to keep the possibility open for the real UB to keep quiet in case it was a fakeclaim. Then it looked like you were hopping onto that opportunity so I figured you must be the real UB.

Robz's unvote and comments right after the claim seemed to me like he was not the UB himself.

I don't like the way he called Awaclus a liar.  Both because it's unfair and because I can read it as towny or scummy.

Even after the Robz vote, she is unsure of his alignment.

I mostly believe Robz and Awaclus. Don't want to unvote at this point, tho.

Now this is scummy.  If she believes both of them, why not unvote?

I'll go with vote:gkrieg. His "I'm not paying attention" thing is starting to feel like an act.

Then votes for me.

I'll go with vote:gkrieg. His "I'm not paying attention" thing is starting to feel like an act.

I thought he brought up a really good point about Robz previously pushing for claimed PR lynch as mafia. He would have had to have been paying attention to notice that.u

Right. I think it's an act. I think scum!gkrieg came up with that observation of Robz, given how he continued to push it after doubt had been created.

This is part of her reasoning.  The only problem is that she also came up with this theory, or at least went with it:

It seemed to me that Robz did think Awaclus was soft-claiming, because he asked if Awaclus was staying on Joseph. The problem is the similarity of his arguments here with his arguments in past games in which he got PRs mislynched.

So how can she say that scum!me "came up with an observation" when she agreed with it!

I'll go with vote:gkrieg. His "I'm not paying attention" thing is starting to feel like an act.

I thought he brought up a really good point about Robz previously pushing for claimed PR lynch as mafia. He would have had to have been paying attention to notice that.u

Right. I think it's an act. I think scum!gkrieg came up with that observation of Robz, given how he continued to push it after doubt had been created.

So you think he is pretending to not pay attention by pretending to pay attention?

!  No.  On two separate occasions - when I asked him who his scumreads were and when he voted for Robz, he stated he wasn't paying attention. I'm thinking that is feigned indifference. The Robz case was, perhaps, an attempt to use the parallel and Robz's past successes as scum to get Robz lynched.

So now at this point, her case on me is growing, and has two components.  One is my "feigned indifference", which makes sense, if you really think that it wasn't real.  But anyone who has been in a game with me recently knows that I just don't get into D1 as much as I used to anymore.  Her second point is what I stated earlier as being very misleading.

vote: EFHW using faust's previously stated suspicion to vote for gkrieg on an overstated point.

I feel like you still don't get my point.  I'm not saying he isn't paying attention.  I'm saying he is projecting a disengaged attitude in an attempt to seem like town.  I can also see a a very plausible scum narrative for his case against Robz.

I am using faust's suggestion, as well.  But I won't vote Awaclus, who I think is town, and whom he also fingered with suspicion.

She keeps going after this scum narrative for my case against Robz, which I will once again point out, she agreed with!

TWM, who do you think is scum, besides me, at this point?  Still think Robz?

I still think there is a relatively high chance of Robz being mafia. RoadRunner is still on my radar, but everyone seems to just be giving him a pass for some reason.

Going back over the thread briefly to further answer your question I don't know what to make of either Jake or IDPTG. For some reason they keep combining in my head, but both have had moments that I was suspicious of. But I might be surprisingly a little suspicious of Calamatis. He hasn't really done much except put the brakes on wagons. I don't know if he has given one scum read this whole game. Even mcmcsalot has done more hunting than him.

I'm open to a Calamitas lynch, or mcmc. I think we generally want to let RR and Jake live to Day 2 because they always are getting mislynched Day 1. The pass is both for their sakes and because it has become considered scummy to vote for them Day 1.

Here, she seems overly cautious to vote for someone who it is considered scummy to vote for.

Your points about Robz are plausible, though. I won't rule out a Robz vote.

Then she kind of does this 180 on Robz again.

I don't want to lynch mcmc at this point.  The contributions he did make were towny, and I didn't get the feeling he had any particular agenda.

She also does this 180 on mcmcsalot, right at the crucial point where pivoting her attention off of him ensures that the wagons are all on townies.  This is also a reason that doesn't really mean anything.

Need to grab quotes and I need to go to sleep so will wait till morning to post my full case but i am going to vote: faust as he believed joseph was towny before his claim when I think he almost certainly looked scummy and he has repeatedly supported jake's plan to narrow the lynch pool which I think is much more scummy then jakes very damaging but I think town inspired plan.

I'm interested to see your case, but this close to deadline, voting off the 3 existing wagons probably isn't very helpful.

Then she continues to try to get votes only onto the wagons that already exist.

Weird that the gkrieg lynch isn't happening, given so many people expressed willingness to vote him. A possible sign he is scum. If it's not going to happen, I'll switch my vote to Robz.

Then she kind of locks in that she is going to vote for Robz, even after her whole case on me is that my case on Robz was scum motivated.  Like if she really believes that, why would she ever vote for him?

So that is my whole reread of EFHW from D1.

[faust]

While I'm glad you no longer think I'm scummy in 20 posts you go from me/rr/TWM to being less worried about scum!rr than scum!efhw and scum!ash? Ash and EFHW are like my strongest town reads at this point so what up with this?

So here's the thing: I have town reads. They are Joseph, Jake, gkrieg, Awaclus. The rest is scummy territory, and I'm trying to figure out who makes sense as scum. When I say I'm more worried about scum!EFHW than scum!RR, I don't mean I think EFHW is more likely to be scum, I mean that if EFHW is scum, she poses a bigger threat to us than RR does if he is scum.

Can you explain what maeks EFHW and ash such strong townread for you?

The post that mcmc referenced is the one that jumped out to me as well. And I am still not sure I like your response either. Why not just vote for who you think is most likely to be mafia? How big of a difference can the threat from one be to the other? More than the difference in how you read them? I would get it, if you thought they were equally likely to be mafia.

An RR lynch just does not give us much to go on going forward even if he flips scum. His partner are probably willing to bus him because really RR is going to get lynched at some point anyway and so the interactions of an RR wagon are mostly useless.

One could still lynch RR in the end, but it's better to spend the mid-day with wagons that are more insightful.

So do you actually want to lynch EFHW or just voting for there for insight to see if you will want to vote for EFHW? I am sorry if I am being dumb here, but I feel like you are playing a different game than me. Maybe that is just inexperience talking, so I am trying to give you the benefit of doubt here, but this just seems to be a sneaky way to operate.

I don't know who I want to lynch. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Maybe you, after all. I don't feel that great about EFHW anymore, she did have that towny thing with the Robz wagon.

Vote: TWM

[mcmcsalot]

While I'm glad you no longer think I'm scummy in 20 posts you go from me/rr/TWM to being less worried about scum!rr than scum!efhw and scum!ash? Ash and EFHW are like my strongest town reads at this point so what up with this?

So here's the thing: I have town reads. They are Joseph, Jake, gkrieg, Awaclus. The rest is scummy territory, and I'm trying to figure out who makes sense as scum. When I say I'm more worried about scum!EFHW than scum!RR, I don't mean I think EFHW is more likely to be scum, I mean that if EFHW is scum, she poses a bigger threat to us than RR does if he is scum.

Can you explain what maeks EFHW and ash such strong townread for you?

The post that mcmc referenced is the one that jumped out to me as well. And I am still not sure I like your response either. Why not just vote for who you think is most likely to be mafia? How big of a difference can the threat from one be to the other? More than the difference in how you read them? I would get it, if you thought they were equally likely to be mafia.

An RR lynch just does not give us much to go on going forward even if he flips scum. His partner are probably willing to bus him because really RR is going to get lynched at some point anyway and so the interactions of an RR wagon are mostly useless.

One could still lynch RR in the end, but it's better to spend the mid-day with wagons that are more insightful.

So do you actually want to lynch EFHW or just voting for there for insight to see if you will want to vote for EFHW? I am sorry if I am being dumb here, but I feel like you are playing a different game than me. Maybe that is just inexperience talking, so I am trying to give you the benefit of doubt here, but this just seems to be a sneaky way to operate.

I think you are getting a bit hung up. It is understandable that if he thinks EFHW/ash/rr are scum rr is going to be much less impactful of a scum player than EFHW or ash therefor he wants to go after them instead. I think it is scummy however to make statements like the bolded one above and trying to set up multiple lynches. So I think it's scummy with a town rational which is why he did it.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

I don't know who I want to lynch. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Maybe you, after all. I don't feel that great about EFHW anymore, she did have that towny thing with the Robz wagon.

Vote: TWM

Making me feel really good about asking questions here.

[faust]

Then he finds EFHW scummy for urging people to stay on the mislynches, and that's a valid point if we knew both wagons would be mislynches but we don't, and the way EFHW said it sounded pretty much like hey mcmc I like you case but you should pay attention to the current wagons.

come on these are the only wagons we can make work traps. I think not only is scum likely to make those kind of statements [...]

But you do see that these two posts contradict each other?

Yea since you keep scummily taking out my context. When EFHW said that I did not take it as you and gkrieg have as "only vote for these people" I took it as "Hey super glad you are here and have thought but maybe take a look at the wagons we are actually about to lynch instead of starting a whole new case right now." She even goes on to vote rr at one point after which isn't one of the main wagons. The "come on these are the only wagons we can lynch" statement was referring to people like jake and you supporting early on to try and find a consensus 3 people we will lynch from.

I just fail to see the different. Other than I never wanted to find 3 people we will lynch from.

[gkrieg13]

Also I need to reread gkriegs case on EFHW as well as what was the township you are referring to?

Him not realizing that Calamitas has been nightkilled.

Oh yea, so I have to check who is in the game and alive pretty evenly when I am scum and when I am town, I'm not sure that says much. Yea I mean if anything I think it's unlikely town or scum makes that mistake so slight chance he made the mistake on purpose hoping it would look towny.

What? As scum, you talk all night over who you should kill, so it's pretty obvious that you are more likely to remember who you ended up killing. I can't really understand how you don't see that.

I will tell you that for me, I'm a very tactical scum player, and there is no way that I would forget who we killed.  So really the only two options are genuine or faked townslip.

[faust]

I don't know who I want to lynch. That's what I'm trying to figure out.

Maybe you, after all. I don't feel that great about EFHW anymore, she did have that towny thing with the Robz wagon.

Vote: TWM

Making me feel really good about asking questions here.

What's that supposed to mean? I did answer your question, no? Should I have been nicer about thinking you're scum?

[mcmcsalot]

Then he finds EFHW scummy for urging people to stay on the mislynches, and that's a valid point if we knew both wagons would be mislynches but we don't, and the way EFHW said it sounded pretty much like hey mcmc I like you case but you should pay attention to the current wagons.

come on these are the only wagons we can make work traps. I think not only is scum likely to make those kind of statements [...]

But you do see that these two posts contradict each other?

Yea since you keep scummily taking out my context. When EFHW said that I did not take it as you and gkrieg have as "only vote for these people" I took it as "Hey super glad you are here and have thought but maybe take a look at the wagons we are actually about to lynch instead of starting a whole new case right now." She even goes on to vote rr at one point after which isn't one of the main wagons. The "come on these are the only wagons we can lynch" statement was referring to people like jake and you supporting early on to try and find a consensus 3 people we will lynch from.

I just fail to see the different. Other than I never wanted to find 3 people we will lynch from.

Omg I'm not taking the time to pull quotes, maybe later but you supported jakes plan to find a concencus three people that everyone would and then limit the vote pool to those thee people. I know because it's what I spent almost all day one yelling at Jake for proposing and saying we should just let cases come naturally via reads and you argued with me about it!!!!

Jeezus other townines want to chime in here, I'm done going back and forth with Faust on this, you are a good player, you will have a defense however bad and scummy to everything I say and you are robzfuscating my case on you by making it harder for people to follow the actual points. You are playing a great active scummy game.

[faust]

An RR lynch just does not give us much to go on going forward even if he flips scum. His partner are probably willing to bus him because really RR is going to get lynched at some point anyway and so the interactions of an RR wagon are mostly useless.

One could still lynch RR in the end, but it's better to spend the mid-day with wagons that are more insightful.

So do you actually want to lynch EFHW or just voting for there for insight to see if you will want to vote for EFHW? I am sorry if I am being dumb here, but I feel like you are playing a different game than me. Maybe that is just inexperience talking, so I am trying to give you the benefit of doubt here, but this just seems to be a sneaky way to operate.

I think you are getting a bit hung up. It is understandable that if he thinks EFHW/ash/rr are scum rr is going to be much less impactful of a scum player than EFHW or ash therefor he wants to go after them instead. I think it is scummy however to make statements like the bolded one above and trying to set up multiple lynches. So I think it's scummy with a town rational which is why he did it.

"Setting up multiple lynches"? How is saying that scum!RR always gets lynched setting up multiple lynches?