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[2.71828.....]

I wouldn't say that Jan read was joking. I would say it was more, well, almost a satire of his post pointing out how ridiculous his read on me was based on the post he just made.

I was trying to be clever and I guess some people missed out on that.

The scum read, however, was not fabricated. I think scum is more likely to accuse someone as scum for a collection of null reads  (as mine were characterized as) than town. At least at that point of D1.

My scum read on Jan has mellowed somewhat since then, but I am grateful for the opportunity to explain my post, which makes it funny

[Jan]

While reading over the conversation with e - some small things I am curious about :

Liopoil's Day One Lynchpool:

Jan
Seprix
Hydrad
Haddock
Teproc
gkrieg13

6 << 16, so this is a lot of progress. Happy with my current vote.

PPE: haha nice one

Yeah this is most likely the worst scum list i have seen all game. Not talking about me, but like .. You read 3 of the people who pushed the best content in this game (Teproc, Haddock, Seprix) that you know in your scum list, and you don't even have a reason. (I don't count fonti/meli since you don't know them)

Just look at their post. They are just better. Sure there could be a scum between them. But that would be the hard scum to find, ebcause they are playing fairly well.

Hydrad is just a cop out. could be scum could be town, has no content.

I am split between you and "Number two", but he hardclaimed with his reaction while you might be just wrong on everything as town.

You continue to blatantly misrepresent. This was not a reads list. It was not intended to be persuasive. It was not even a list of people I find scummy. It was "Liopoil's Day One Lynchpool", and indeed this is exactly what I said.

Can you tell me what the point was of making a day 1 lynchpool list at the time?

If it is not representing your reads at the time ("not a reads list"), what exactly was it supposed to be?

Why did you have those people on your list at the time?
For me to make a list like that there are 2 reasons :
1. i think those are people that are scummy and if they are town i would not miss them
2. i think everyone else is towny or really useful even if they are scum, so those people are my lynchpool via PoE.

You seemed to have another reason for it. with all the e drama i had no time to ask you back then, why did you put those people on your day 1 lynchpool?


Aaannd a second one for liopoil, cutting down the quote to make it a little smaller:

The most OMGUS post of all time. If you read his post carefully, you'd realize that he is not actually summarizing your reads, but mocking the way you misrepresent his own reads in your summary. In noticing that he is misrepresenting you, you accidentally implicitly admit to misrepresenting him. And his original reads list was high quality.

e's flip-flop screams completely genuine to me, and I think others will agree. What you accuse e of you yourself commit at least as much.

I doubt we will find a better lynch than Jan today.

Could you do me the favor and tell me what about/why you thought that e's initial readslist was "high quality"?

And while you are at it could you explain to me the sentence before that?
It does not make any sense in my head. I legit don't get the part where you say me acknowledging his post as what it is implies me admitting to something i didn't do.
You could say that my parody of his readslist was slightly over the top, which is the point of a parody in most cases. But the point at its core stands and stood. His list was of the lowest quality imaginable at the time, because it was the facade of information, while not bringing forth anything new. (or not a lot new considering the amount of words he used).

Going full circle - why was his list "high quality" to you?

[Seprix]

ADK first votes me for “repeatedly voting for people trying to get us out of RVS”. He also posts an RVS comment right before with Melisandre’s Awaclus vote, so it’s a little silly. To keep this in context, the vote on Awaclus is Melisandre's awful awful beginning reads list that means absolutely nothing, but I already fought with Melisandre about this, you know all about that already.

ADK then pleads that RR vote for me, defends Melisandre's 'LAMIST' post in a bad way. Seriously. Read his explanation. I don't like it at all. However, he defends his reasoning in this way later on when replying to SS. They can't all be the best explanation ever, but this is a solid one if Melis's reads were legitimate. However, they were absolutely not, so the explanation doesn't hold up after all. ADK doesn't even backtrack on his comments on this when Melis reveals this.

When my wagon is getting nowhere, he jumps aboard Teproc for stating ADK was obviously town. Not sure what to think of this.

This is interesting. ADK firstly claims that my vote on him for contrived reads was obvious, and because of this, it was a bad vote. Just because it's obvious doesn't mean it is a bad vote. ADK honestly feels like he is stifling the discussion right now. In addition, he says he is still voting for me, when he is actually voting for Teproc. I don't know how useful that is, but there you go.

But wait, there's more. ADK then admits that he thought the Melis reads were real, but thinks the Awaclus vote was fake, which then proves beyond a doubt his comments on it were RVS, but he still attacks me on pulling people out of RVS. It's just very odd to me. I don't know.

ADK spats with Teproc a little about metas and not liking it when people townread him. Well, I scum read ADK and he didn't like it, but ADK is just skeptical in general, which is a good stance to take. I'm okay with it. Anyways, ADK ends his argument with Teproc and says he'll keep his vote there.

Oooh, this is bad. This is very bad. Melisandre asks ADK what reads he agrees with on his initial reads list (the bad one), which is a bad question in itself, and then ADK says that he didn't even take the reads list all that seriously, but he still claims that I did wrong. Well, it wasn't wrong enough to vote for me instead of Teproc. It feels like ADK is keeping his options open.

Wow, the interaction just got worse. ADK liked the vote on Awaclus, but he already said he knew it was RVS. Well, that's a little useless and a completely empty post. In ADK's defense, Melisandre's post was completely devoid of any content in the first place, but ADK feels the need that he has to defend his stance on early reads being scum despite knowing it was pretty useless anyways. Man, oh man.

We finally get to the post where I build a case on ADK. It's a good one, I think. I like it even more, now that I'm rereading ADK. His early play was terrible.

Then, ADK sidesteps and deflects. He has been against me the entire game, and then whines about not even voting for me, despite that not so long ago, he firstly voted for me, then even when switching to Teproc, he continues to harp on my 'poor play'. See what I mean when I say it feels like he is keeping his options open?

His response to my calling this out is even more excuse driven keeping options open! Wow, he suddenly forms a town read on me, like that's going to placate me. Didn't ADK say before that having a town read on someone flat out is scummy? For a skeptical player, ADK seems to be bowing out of this fight and hoping it all blows over. I don't like it at all.

And now ADK has had time to think, and has settled into an acceptable position. He was nervous, but he's had time to think, and now he has his alibi. He won't be playing half as badly now.

From here on out, ADK plays a much more solid game, happy to have his early case on him ignored. He never mentions all of that ever again. He lists recent games he played, which is somehow a town-tell even though it really isn't, he votes for Hydrad because he isn't active (which is another bad vote, voting for inactivity D1 isn't all that great), he votes for liopoil and jumps on the wagon (along with IG notably), posts a solid reads list.

He votes liopoil again despite not moving his lynch, which I can only assume is for extra pressure. He then instantly jumps on e. Then liopoil again. Oh, it's that panic town end of D1 moment. Then ADK starts the Awaclus lynch, simply because he is pissed at him.

Next day, he votes SS right out of the gate for no real reason given. Then votes Iguana for no real reason given right after. Then he says he voted for Hydrad, and then has never posted since then.

[J Reggie]

Well, since there's nothing better to do, vote: ADK

[Seprix]

Yeah, screw it, vote: ADK. I talked myself into voting him again.

PPE:

[Seprix]

I'll reread someone else shortly.

[Witherweaver]

That seems like a very forced "need to make things sound scummy" read.

[iguanaiguana]

Not really thrilled about Iguana's reaction to his quickwagon.  I expect more indignation. 

Clearly you didn't catch on to the seething rage that was undermining literally every sentence I wrote.

[iguanaiguana]

That seems like a very forced "need to make things sound scummy" read.

Well, you and Teproc sure do think alike! He's been defending ADK all game.

[Jan]

I wouldn't say that Jan read was joking. I would say it was more, well, almost a satire of his post pointing out how ridiculous his read on me was based on the post he just made.

I was trying to be clever and I guess some people missed out on that.

The scum read, however, was not fabricated. I think scum is more likely to accuse someone as scum for a collection of null reads  (as mine were characterized as) than town. At least at that point of D1.

My scum read on Jan has mellowed somewhat since then, but I am grateful for the opportunity to explain my post, which makes it funny

I am not sure if you got the point of what i was saying.
Being null on someone (early on) is okay. You are allowed to be unsure or have no read.
But you gave reads on the whole game without actually giving reads on any/most of them.
Your post was an empty flood of words for the most part, which you then called "a lot", which was a fancy frame for a boring post in my book.

2.71828.....
very little posts. has made the effort to give 1 post with content on everyone one way or another.
His reads in itself don't rock my world. gives passes to half of the game without giving a read on them.
Reads are either loose meta jibs or just nothing, not a lot of depths to anything.

I will color in his scumread on gkrieg as well just because he repeated it several times.

Just reread through the thread, and there is a lot there. 

RR seems like his classic self, which means he will reveal himself as scum on D3 (if he is scum).  So let's leave him be for now.
Melisandre seems like a pretty confident player, and has been posting all sorts of stuff, and it has read pretty honest to me.  Town for now
liopoil has a lynch brewing in the future for him if he keeps up with the odd posts and 'traps' and such.  Does he really do that as scum?  not so sure.
fontisian and Jan are both new with melisandre, and although they haven't been as active, they still exist.  I am fine keeping it that way on D1.
gkrieg is still voting me from rvs despite making cases and rereading people and finding them scummy, so....vote: gkrieg
silverspawn has some big posts and has some cool things down.  Scummy stuff not really.
I voted for Seprix earlier, and maybe that is just because his current play style makes me think scum. Which, could be right or could be wrong.  Either way, gkrieg is a better place to vote right now.  He is totally just sitting on a vote to look important and not be sitting at "not voting" status
Hydrad is so very Hydrad.  We can lynch him and RR together on D3 when they both breakdown and claim scum for real
I think Awaclus is very provocative, which can be frustrating...but also good.  He gets useful reactions out of people.
ADK does ADK stuff.  He could be town, but I think gkrieg is the better option right now.
Reggie is cool.  Let's not lynch him
Haddock is over-sensitized to any time that I remotely call him scummy.  Half the time it isn't even real.  I mean, like last game in lylo where I totally found him scummy for everything because I had to.  This half...might actually be a real scum read.
Ichi is town.  Because I said so.
Teproc is scum.  Because

you should reconsider your faust read. pretty sure that guy is some sort of evil overlord with a whole mafia team serving him.[/color]

I could get behind that case

But we should lynch his minion gkrieg first.

PPE:2

So what is left afterwards is you repeating a scumread on gkrieg and a townread on melisandre.
And the loose lio might get lynched for his playstyle not for being scummy. Which might be a meta thing as well, not sure.

The point is that you talked about rereading the game, but the game itself didn't seem to influence your reads that much, because you didn't mention a lot of things that had happened.

You being null after reading the game is ok. you not talking about the game after stating you had read it was weird.
Most of your post could have been made by a random member of this forum without reading the thread. (Because they have the meta information on players that they can just talk about)

You did not go in depth on anything, which is something i would expect of a player making a reread and stating that there was "a lot there".


Oh also what was the teproc thing at the end? you quoted me talking about the mod. Why does that make teproc scummy?

[Witherweaver]

That seems like a very forced "need to make things sound scummy" read.

Well, you and Teproc sure do think alike! He's been defending ADK all game.

Well Teproc is a smart guy.  But it has little to do with ADK, much like Seprix's post itself.

[Seprix]

That seems like a very forced "need to make things sound scummy" read.

Well, you and Teproc sure do think alike! He's been defending ADK all game.

Well Teproc is a smart guy.  But it has little to do with ADK, much like Seprix's post itself.

My entire post is about ADK. What are you talking about?

[Jan]

That seems like a very forced "need to make things sound scummy" read.

Well, you and Teproc sure do think alike! He's been defending ADK all game.

Well Teproc is a smart guy.  But it has little to do with ADK, much like Seprix's post itself.

I would say the post has a lot of confirmation bias and omgus in it. Not sure if it is on purpose or just a man in a tunnel with noone around to show him some light.

[Witherweaver]

That seems like a very forced "need to make things sound scummy" read.

Well, you and Teproc sure do think alike! He's been defending ADK all game.

Well Teproc is a smart guy.  But it has little to do with ADK, much like Seprix's post itself.

My entire post is about ADK. What are you talking about?

Not really.  It's a recollection of things done, with a lot of insistence that said things were 'bad'.  What the things were (and, by extension, who did those things) does not seem extremely correlated with the judgement of 'bad'.  Meaning you could have picked anyone, linked some posts they made, and had identical conclusions about that person.

[Witherweaver]

That seems like a very forced "need to make things sound scummy" read.

Well, you and Teproc sure do think alike! He's been defending ADK all game.

Well Teproc is a smart guy.  But it has little to do with ADK, much like Seprix's post itself.

I would say the post has a lot of confirmation bias and omgus in it. Not sure if it is on purpose or just a man in a tunnel with noone around to show him some light.

If only we had someone here to protect us from the night, which is dark, and full of terrors.

[Seprix]

Not really.  It's a recollection of things done, with a lot of insistence that said things were 'bad'.  What the things were (and, by extension, who did those things) does not seem extremely correlated with the judgement of 'bad'.  Meaning you could have picked anyone, linked some posts they made, and had identical conclusions about that person.

It's a read. What on earth do you want, some objective standpoint? Nothing is objective, especially in mafia.

[silverspawn]

@Jan I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot when I say this.

Meta is not a dirty thing. It is not a lazy thing. It is not an inferior thing.

Using it as a dirty word is just so... stupid. Ignoring meta should be a dirty word, only it's not a word at all, because that means willingly disregarding relevant information. So if you go through e's post and color everything that's meta related and then conclude that his reads list is bad that makes zero sense.

[silverspawn]

Not really.  It's a recollection of things done, with a lot of insistence that said things were 'bad'.  What the things were (and, by extension, who did those things) does not seem extremely correlated with the judgement of 'bad'.  Meaning you could have picked anyone, linked some posts they made, and had identical conclusions about that person.

It's a read. What on earth do you want, some objective standpoint? Nothing is objective, especially in mafia.

probability is, even in mafia

[Jan]

@Jan I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot when I say this.

Meta is not a dirty thing. It is not a lazy thing. It is not an inferior thing.

Using it as a dirty word is just so... stupid. Ignoring meta should be a dirty word, only it's not a word at all, because that means willingly disregarding relevant information. So if you go through e's post and color everything that's meta related and then conclude that his reads list is bad that makes zero sense.

I don't disagree with you, but reducing your play to empty meta phrases is a cop out that is the easiest way for scum to take.
Meta is a crutch and as such it is useful as a help in your gameplay, but reducing your play to meta only is almost always not the way to solve a game.

I didn't use it as a dirty word. I said there was nothing beyond it.

A good metaread gives you information on the person. It is not .. Well according to meta - nothing.

I will paste the meta parts i marked again just for you, because it seems like you are a special care child today :

RR seems like his classic self, which means he will reveal himself as scum on D3 (if he is scum).
I voted for Seprix earlier, and maybe that is just because his current play style makes me think scum.
Hydrad is so very Hydrad.  We can lynch him and RR together on D3 when they both breakdown and claim scum for real
I think Awaclus is very provocative, which can be frustrating...but also good.  He gets useful reactions out of people.
ADK does ADK stuff.  He could be town, but I think gkrieg is the better option right now.
Haddock is over-sensitized to any time that I remotely call him scummy.  Half the time it isn't even real.  I mean, like last game in lylo where I totally found him scummy for everything because I had to. 

Meta is a good and precious thing. But he does not actually give a reasonable read with most of his meta statements (which is not what meta reads are for)

I am fine with him saying RR and hydrad are self resolving reads on d3 onward because they just crumble as scum.
The Awaclus thing has 0 information in it. He reads a playstyle (and as such gives non alignment meta information) without reading anything beyond it.
The seprix thing is him saying that he can't read seprix because he reads his playstyle scummy. which is also meta with 0 information.
The ADK read is - what?
ADK is well in his meta range, no information. The second part does not make any sense. I would assume that he wanted to say scum and not town because that is the only way he can fit the gkrieg part in there.
Haddock omgus reads him, when he calls him scum. Also no information.

A useful meta read on someone has some sort of information about that persons alignment in it.
"X is scum because he posts too much/not enough fluff which is a scumtell for him/her."
Something like that would be a useful meta read on someone else, those reads were not for the most part.

You saying his reads were good because meta is as bad as me saying his reads are bad because meta. Go in depth and look what his reads actually are and in this case they are mostly hot air with a slight odour of rotten eggs.

[Seprix]

Not really.  It's a recollection of things done, with a lot of insistence that said things were 'bad'.  What the things were (and, by extension, who did those things) does not seem extremely correlated with the judgement of 'bad'.  Meaning you could have picked anyone, linked some posts they made, and had identical conclusions about that person.

It's a read. What on earth do you want, some objective standpoint? Nothing is objective, especially in mafia.

probability is, even in mafia

Closed set up. We have very limited information to work with.

[Witherweaver]

Not really.  It's a recollection of things done, with a lot of insistence that said things were 'bad'.  What the things were (and, by extension, who did those things) does not seem extremely correlated with the judgement of 'bad'.  Meaning you could have picked anyone, linked some posts they made, and had identical conclusions about that person.

It's a read. What on earth do you want, some objective standpoint? Nothing is objective, especially in mafia.

probability is, even in mafia

Closed set up. We have very limited information to work with.

And yet those resourceful among us still scavenge for opportunities to be annoying.

[Seprix]

Whatever, let me know when something real happens here.

[Witherweaver]

Whatever, let me know when something real happens here.

What games have you been scum in?

[Seprix]

Whatever, let me know when something real happens here.

What games have you been scum in?

It might have been Adventures mafia ages ago. I was scum in one game, it might have been that one.

[Witherweaver]

Whatever, let me know when something real happens here.

What games have you been scum in?

It might have been Adventures mafia ages ago. I was scum in one game, it might have been that one.

It wasn't that one.