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Author Topic: AdrianHealey's Fan Cards  (Read 22782 times)

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GeneralRamos

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2016, 03:26:24 pm »
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Possible danger: it's (almost) always strictly better than smithy in the sense of: if you have another action card, you can't play that action card *anyway*, so you might as well play smithy. It's only not strictly better when you *don't* have another action card, which might happen.
Well, strictly better I believe means that it is always better. +3 cards, +1 action is indeed strictly better than +3 cards, but the mandatory discard of an Action card to do it means it is in fact never strictly better. It's also not strictly better than Lab, but it does leave you with the same number of cards in hand after. I'm inclined to think it is possible at this price, but you should test this around a bit. I can't quite tell if it will be too strong or a bit crippling in a big engine. Spamming it could manage to get your whole deck in hand, but poor timing could make it dead like Stables with no cash.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2016, 03:27:31 pm »
0


Possible danger: it's (almost) always strictly better than smithy in the sense of: if you have another action card, you can't play that action card *anyway*, so you might as well play smithy. It's only not strictly better when you *don't* have another action card, which might happen.
Well, strictly better I believe means that it is always better. +3 cards, +1 action is indeed strictly better than +3 cards, but the mandatory discard of an Action card to do it means it is in fact never strictly better. It's also not strictly better than Lab, but it does leave you with the same number of cards in hand after. I'm inclined to think it is possible at this price, but you should test this around a bit. I can't quite tell if it will be too strong or a bit crippling in a big engine. Spamming it could manage to get your whole deck in hand, but poor timing could make it dead like Stables with no cash.

Thanks! I'll keep it for now at this price point and see what happens.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2016, 02:20:04 am »
+1

The problem with Party Time IMO, is that it's way too wordy with the below the line part. Maybe if you cut the automatic copper gaining, then you won't need the drawback. It's easy enough to spend at least one of those buys on buying copper anyway. So do this:

Quote
Party Time
Cost $5 - Action
+2 Buys.
Reveal your hand and trash all revealed coppers.
+1VP and +$1 for each copper trashed this way.
If you didn't trash any coppers, +$2.

Also, you want to make sure the second +2 Cards on Army Man is contitional on the discard. Otherwise it can act like a Hunting Grounds. So:
Quote
Foot Soldier
Cost $4 - Action - Attack
+2 Cards.
You may discard 3 cards. If you do, +2 Cards and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 02:27:22 am by LibraryAdventurer »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #53 on: January 19, 2016, 04:35:47 am »
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The problem with Party Time IMO, is that it's way too wordy with the below the line part. Maybe if you cut the automatic copper gaining, then you won't need the drawback. It's easy enough to spend at least one of those buys on buying copper anyway. So do this:

Quote
Party Time
Cost $5 - Action
+2 Buys.
Reveal your hand and trash all revealed coppers.
+1VP and +$1 for each copper trashed this way.
If you didn't trash any coppers, +$2.

Also, you want to make sure the second +2 Cards on Army Man is contitional on the discard. Otherwise it can act like a Hunting Grounds. So:
Quote
Foot Soldier
Cost $4 - Action - Attack
+2 Cards.
You may discard 3 cards. If you do, +2 Cards and each other player discards down to 3 cards in hand.

Thanks for the suggestions! I agree that Party Time is quite... wordy. However, so is Native Village. I don't think it's all too complicated once you get the hang of it, so, for now, I'll keep it as is. (I guess all can be done in a fluent movement, and while you are trashing coppers, the person to your left can choose what to name.) :)
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #54 on: January 19, 2016, 04:42:44 am »
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Thanks GeneralRamos for both of these templates!

A village that works in the future! Throneroom it, and it gets really interesting really fast.
Seems balanced. Possible tracking issues ('is this the first or second time you played this?') but besides that: seems balanced, no?

And a treasure that will help you get rid of coppers, before it turns into a copper. Worse than counterfeit, but (probably) better than Loan (less risky). So fairly priced at $4, I think.

If you observe really well, you'll notice a small white edge around the $1 coin on the Smooth Salesman. I apologize, I am not a particularly good photoshopper. :)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2016, 06:48:47 am by AdrianHealey »
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enfynet

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #55 on: January 19, 2016, 09:21:30 am »
+2

Bunch of Friends

Now and at the start of your next two turns,
+1 Action
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2016, 07:48:13 am »
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Thanks Enfynet: I changed it on the final version of the card!



Two new cards. :)  (The second one doesn't have a name yet, because I can't find a good name for the person that the card relates to.)
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 07:49:20 am by AdrianHealey »
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Limetime

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2016, 11:35:40 am »
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Thanks Enfynet: I changed it on the final version of the card!



Two new cards. :)  (The second one doesn't have a name yet, because I can't find a good name for the person that the card relates to.)
Both of these seem quite weak. The first one is either a copper that can be drawn dead or terminal coin that is delayed a turn. The second one has an average of 2 coins per turn so if you are drawing your deck silver is better.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2016, 11:55:59 am »
0

Thanks Enfynet: I changed it on the final version of the card!



Two new cards. :)  (The second one doesn't have a name yet, because I can't find a good name for the person that the card relates to.)
Both of these seem quite weak. The first one is either a copper that can be drawn dead or terminal coin that is delayed a turn. The second one has an average of 2 coins per turn so if you are drawing your deck silver is better.

The first one is supposed to be a variant on Merchant Ship and swamp hag, with a small twist. It originally only had the +4 (for a cost of 5). I added the non-terminal copper to provide some options.

The second one: true, it gives an everage of 2 coins. But another way of looking at it is this: next turn you have an additional silver (+your hand) and the turn after that an additional gold (+your hand). I am not sure it's that weak. A silver is a card you play and then you only have 4 other cards remaining, something that is obviously missing here because of the duration effect. I don't think a free silver-spoils to play ànd an free spoil for 5 (free as in: it doesn't take up room in your hand) is that cheap... is it?

I could lower the price to 4, but that seems cheap for something that can give +6 coins in total, even if it's terminal.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 11:57:20 am by AdrianHealey »
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enfynet

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2016, 12:04:34 pm »
0

He did say "if you are drawing your deck" which implies more than Silver+4cards.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #60 on: January 21, 2016, 12:13:45 pm »
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He did say "if you are drawing your deck" which implies more than Silver+4cards.

Ah, yes. I am fine with a card being less in power 'when you can draw your deck', I guess. I'm sure it's not the only card that's weak then.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2016, 02:49:07 pm »
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He did say "if you are drawing your deck" which implies more than Silver+4cards.

Ah, yes. I am fine with a card being less in power 'when you can draw your deck', I guess. I'm sure it's not the only card that's weak then.

But I will make it cheaper (4 coins). The simple reason is that in an average game of dominion (+- 20 turns), the pay off is a bit too low.
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Asper

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2016, 05:06:16 pm »
+1

The second one reminds me of a card that was named, i think, Musketeer(?), which also did something for three turns. Well, not exactly, it just drew an additional card during the second turn's cleanup, but that had the advantage that you didn't need to count how long it had been in play before. I'm not sure how exactly it looked and who made it (sorry for this), but it was something like this:

Musketeer, $3, Action - Duration
+1 Action
At the start of your next turn:
+$2
----
When you discard this from play during cleanup, draw 2 additional cards for your next hand.

Edit: I'm pointing this out because i think the tracking of the second card is really though. Maybe this idea helps you a bit. As it seems a bit weak and +Card is usually better than +$, maybe there's an idea for a buff that also reduces tracking issues.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 05:09:42 pm by Asper »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #63 on: February 08, 2016, 10:41:16 am »
0

Florist (the second card) eventually was pretty popular as a steady stream of income. We aso found an easy way for tracking issues, so for now, I'll keep it as is.

-----

One card (Smooth Salesman) was a bit underwhelming.

Quote
Original version:
Cost: $4
Treasure
$1
You may trash a treasure. If you do: +$1.

Here are some suggestions for alternatives:

--------------------------------------------------------


$1

You may trash a non-victory card. 
If you do: +$1.

--------------------------------------------------------

$1
You may trash a card.
If you do: +$1.

--------------------------------------------------------

$1
You may trash a treasure.
If you do: +$1; +1VP

--------------------------------------------------------

$1
You may trash a non-victory card.
If you do: +$1; +1VP

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Which one would have your preference and why?

« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 10:44:29 am by AdrianHealey »
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tristan

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #64 on: February 08, 2016, 11:20:11 am »
+2

Florist (the second card) eventually was pretty popular as a steady stream of income. We aso found an easy way for
One card (Smooth Salesman) was a bit underwhelming.

Quote
Original version:
Cost: $4
Treasure
$1
You may trash a treasure. If you do: +$1.

To my taste this is too similar to Moneylender and Loan. It is basically just a Treasure version of Moneylender with the benefit of being a Treasure instead of an Action card and the disadvantage of yielding one coin less than Moneylender.
Silver is often something that you do not want but need in the beginning so the additional advantage of being able to trash other Treasures than Copper for 1$ is not a mere theoretical possibility but I doubt that you are often willing to give up one coin to get rid of a Silver. Silver can be a liability that you wanna get rid off in the middle- or endgame in heavily thinned out decks ... but Smooth Salesman probably doesn't lead to a very thin deck.

The crux is of course its similarity with Loan. Salesman compensates for the trashed Copper whereas Loan trashes out of hand so moneywise they are equal. You most likely have more control with Salesman than with Loan (which hits Silver and Gold later in the game) ... but is that additional control really worth the higher price?


I think that Counterfeit and Loan really fill the niche of Treasure Treasure-trashers. If you wanna go for a Treasure trasher the version which grant VPs for trashing are too Bishop-y and Monument-y for my taste so I would stick with the non-restrictive version that can trash everything. It seems more balanced than the original version (which is probably too weak) and is probably something like Lookout or Loan, i.e. a trasher which doesn't excite you, isn't overpowered and isn't an automatic buy like a cantrip trasher when you open with 5 ... but it does what it is supposed to do.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 11:29:56 am by tristan »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #65 on: February 08, 2016, 12:02:42 pm »
0

Florist (the second card) eventually was pretty popular as a steady stream of income. We aso found an easy way for
One card (Smooth Salesman) was a bit underwhelming.

Quote
Original version:
Cost: $4
Treasure
$1
You may trash a treasure. If you do: +$1.

To my taste this is too similar to Moneylender and Loan. It is basically just a Treasure version of Moneylender with the benefit of being a Treasure instead of an Action card and the disadvantage of yielding one coin less than Moneylender.
Silver is often something that you do not want but need in the beginning so the additional advantage of being able to trash other Treasures than Copper for 1$ is not a mere theoretical possibility but I doubt that you are often willing to give up one coin to get rid of a Silver. Silver can be a liability that you wanna get rid off in the middle- or endgame in heavily thinned out decks ... but Smooth Salesman probably doesn't lead to a very thin deck.

The crux is of course its similarity with Loan. Salesman compensates for the trashed Copper whereas Loan trashes out of hand so moneywise they are equal. You most likely have more control with Salesman than with Loan (which hits Silver and Gold later in the game) ... but is that additional control really worth the higher price?


I think that Counterfeit and Loan really fill the niche of Treasure Treasure-trashers. If you wanna go for a Treasure trasher the version which grant VPs for trashing are too Bishop-y and Monument-y for my taste so I would stick with the non-restrictive version that can trash everything. It seems more balanced than the original version (which is probably too weak) and is probably something like Lookout or Loan, i.e. a trasher which doesn't excite you, isn't overpowered and isn't an automatic buy like a cantrip trasher when you open with 5 ... but it does what it is supposed to do.

I applaud your analysis, thank you. You make excellent points. We'll try the 'trash anything' version. Thanks for taking your time in sharing your thoughts!
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2016, 04:31:43 pm »
0

Updated versions, if anyone feel like commenting. :)

The issue here is I want a card that (1) can trash money, (2) is a reasonable defense to give you money, (3) but can be strong.
If you have a viking: you can trash a copper, get +3 and then if you draw another copper, you have 4 to spend (and you have trashed a 'useless' copper.) If you have *another* viking in your hand, you can get to $6 pretty fast. Is it too powerful?  Maybe a bit coin-flippy?
Quote
Viking:
$2
Action-Reaction


Show your hand. Trash 1 treasure. Discard all other treasures. When in this turn you have revealed at least one treasure: +$3 and +1 Card
-----
When you discard this other than during a clean-up phase, you may reveal it. If you do, gain a silver, putting it on top of your deck.


The previous version was a bit too weak. Here you can change an estate for a pawn (or hamlet) and immediately use it. Or even exchange a curse for a copper and immediately use it. Doesn't sound like too bad of a deal. It can distribute curses on buy. (If you have 8 to spend, you can give out 3 curses at once, even.) Has a nice synergie with bridge/bridgetroll/and other cost reduction cards.
Quote
Houdini:
$2+
Action


+1 Action
Return a card from your hand to the supply. Gain a differently named card with the same cost. If it costs 2 or less, put it in your hand.
--------
When you buy this, you may overpay for it. For every $2 you overpaid, each other player gains a curse.


Slightly complicated card, but interesting (I hope). If you have useless cards (and especially if there is little trashing), you can 'store' them here. Can also be used for defense. And it gives you VP's. Not overpowered, but also not the weakest card per se, I think.
Quote
Dinner Table
$5
Action - Victory - Attack - Reaction

+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one:
Set aside cards up to the amount of players in the game on your Dinner Table Mat. Return all cards at the end of the game to your deck. 1 VP/Card on your Dinner Table Mat.
Or
Every other player puts one card that you choose from his Dinner Table mat into his discard pile.
------------------------
If attacked, you may discard a card from your hand or your Dinner Table Mat. If you do, you are unaffected by that attack.


Intereting exchange with both others and yourself. You can use it early to gain a gold and an estate. Is it worth it?
I am contemplating of adding a +1 Action to Pediatrician, so it's not a complete dud the turn you use it. If someone else buys a nobles, you might not want to remove Pediatrician from your Tavern mat (or do you? because you can get a gold if you do...).
If someone buys a Colony/Province, you can hurt his next hand, and give yourself a good a (probably) better hand next turn. Sounds decent enough, no?
Quote
Pediatrician
$3

Action - Attack - Reserve

+$2
Put this on your Tavern mat.
-----
When a player (including you) gains a victory card, you may remove this from your Tavern mat. If you do, he moves the card to the top of his deck and you gain a gold. If it’s a province or colony: put the gold on top of your deck.


Has already been tested and approved. Not the most inspiring trasher, but it gets the job done.
Quote
Smooth Salesman:
$4
Treasure

$1
You may trash a card.
If you do: +$1.


What do you think of the reaction? Interesting synergie with (for example) Oasis, but also is an interesting response to Goons/Militia/Torturer kind of attacks. Greek Goddess usually won't come into play until later in the game, and even if you don't use the reaction: the big expensive peddler and the VP's look like it's worth picking up at price 7, no?
Quote
Greek Goddess
$7
Action - Victory - Reaction

+1 Card
+1 Action
+$2
---------------
When you need to discard cards other than during the clean-up phase, you may reveal this and trash any number of those cards instead.
--------------
3 VP
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 09:36:29 am by AdrianHealey »
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AdrianHealey

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Re: Cards for friends
« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2016, 09:10:59 am »
0

Can I bump this? :)
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tristan

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Re: AdrianHealey's Fan Cards
« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2016, 12:49:07 pm »
0

Dinner Table is pretty interesting. The only problem I see is that the second option is weaker and will thus never be chosen.
Ignoring the pseudo-trashing of option 1 and the pseudo-resurrecting of option 2, in a two player game the first option is similar to a cantrip that provides 2 VP tokens whereas the second is similar to -1VP for your opponent. So why would you ever want to choose the latter?
In multiplayer this is even more severe. It is 3 VP tokens in a 3P game vs. still only -1VP for every other player. So the difference increases from 1 to 2.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: AdrianHealey's Fan Cards
« Reply #69 on: February 17, 2016, 12:52:31 pm »
0

Dinner Table is pretty interesting. The only problem I see is that the second option is weaker and will thus never be chosen.
Ignoring the pseudo-trashing of option 1 and the pseudo-resurrecting of option 2, in a two player game the first option is similar to a cantrip that provides 2 VP tokens whereas the second is similar to -1VP for your opponent. So why would you ever want to choose the latter?
In multiplayer this is even more severe. It is 3 VP tokens in a 3P game vs. still only -1VP for every other player. So the difference increases from 1 to 2.

I was thinking in cases whereby you don't want to pseudo-trash cards (because it hurts your engine, for example.) In a sloggame, you probably never want to use the second option, but I am pretty ok with that.
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tristan

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Re: AdrianHealey's Fan Cards
« Reply #70 on: February 17, 2016, 01:13:37 pm »
0

Dinner Table is pretty interesting. The only problem I see is that the second option is weaker and will thus never be chosen.
Ignoring the pseudo-trashing of option 1 and the pseudo-resurrecting of option 2, in a two player game the first option is similar to a cantrip that provides 2 VP tokens whereas the second is similar to -1VP for your opponent. So why would you ever want to choose the latter?
In multiplayer this is even more severe. It is 3 VP tokens in a 3P game vs. still only -1VP for every other player. So the difference increases from 1 to 2.

I was thinking in cases whereby you don't want to pseudo-trash cards (because it hurts your engine, for example.) In a sloggame, you probably never want to use the second option, but I am pretty ok with that.
Don't get my wrong, I like the card a lot and would like it to work.
I just think that the scaling correction that you build into the card might not work as intended as long as player do have cards to set aside. As usual only testing will reveal whether this is arises often or whether the second option will be used frequently enough (or whether it takes a lot of effort to buy crap that you can set aside with the first option such that the VPs you get are a fair reward).
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AdrianHealey

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Re: AdrianHealey's Fan Cards
« Reply #71 on: February 17, 2016, 01:19:47 pm »
0

Dinner Table is pretty interesting. The only problem I see is that the second option is weaker and will thus never be chosen.
Ignoring the pseudo-trashing of option 1 and the pseudo-resurrecting of option 2, in a two player game the first option is similar to a cantrip that provides 2 VP tokens whereas the second is similar to -1VP for your opponent. So why would you ever want to choose the latter?
In multiplayer this is even more severe. It is 3 VP tokens in a 3P game vs. still only -1VP for every other player. So the difference increases from 1 to 2.

I was thinking in cases whereby you don't want to pseudo-trash cards (because it hurts your engine, for example.) In a sloggame, you probably never want to use the second option, but I am pretty ok with that.
Don't get my wrong, I like the card a lot and would like it to work.
I just think that the scaling correction that you build into the card might not work as intended as long as player do have cards to set aside. As usual only testing will reveal whether this is arises often or whether the second option will be used frequently enough (or whether it takes a lot of effort to buy crap that you can set aside with the first option such that the VPs you get are a fair reward).

We'll see what testing gives, then. ^^ Thanks for the feedback. It was what I had in mind, but you never know what other people see in it.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: AdrianHealey's Fan Cards
« Reply #72 on: February 21, 2016, 03:55:03 pm »
0

Creative Artist looks weak, and its on-buy effect looks very double-edged.

(Note that the only official card with that effect, Port, is a cantrip, so there's no reason not to get two of it if you're getting one of it. Creative Artist isn't a cantrip and can't be used as a cantrip, so you might not want to get two.)
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Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

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AdrianHealey

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Re: AdrianHealey's Fan Cards
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2016, 07:51:28 am »
0

Creative Artist looks weak, and its on-buy effect looks very double-edged.

(Note that the only official card with that effect, Port, is a cantrip, so there's no reason not to get two of it if you're getting one of it. Creative Artist isn't a cantrip and can't be used as a cantrip, so you might not want to get two.)

Creative Artist is actually quite popular in our group. Admittedly; we aren't Stef, but we still think we understand the basics. Let me try to explain the dynamic:

- Nobody ever buys CA for 3. Everybody (if they buy it) pay 4 and get two.
- A *single* CA is a necropolis or a moat or a terminal silver or(very occassionally) a source of +buy if there is no other one. Mainly it's used as a necropolis/moat/terminal silver. And people are willing to pay 4 to have the 2 of these at a time, to have different options when it's in your hand. It really is a support card - it won't carry your deck - but because of it's flexibility, it gets bought.

No other action cards? Use it as a terminal silver (you paid 4 for 2 of these, so not too shabby.)
2 other action cards? Now you have a necropolis.
Another CA in your hand? +2 Actions and then +2 cards; and the two replace themselves.
Another village in your hand? Use it for just +2 cards.

Sometimes it's a dud (for example: only one other action card that is not a source of draw), but still; there are plenty of situations where it's a useful card, because of the many options it has.

It's definitely a card that genuinely *needs* other action cards, but it does what it needs to do a a lot of times (because it has so many options.) It's comparable in flexibility with Pawn, but slightly better at everything it can do.
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AdrianHealey

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Re: AdrianHealey's Fan Cards
« Reply #74 on: June 26, 2016, 06:28:05 pm »
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Hey Everyone,

Roadrunner and I are working on some cards of our own (some improved versions of here, some completely new ones.)

Is anyone interested in joining us, preferably someone with some elementary photoshop (or something to that effect) skills?  ;D
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