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[Teproc]

yuma : your opposition to a "simultaneous" claim is just based on principle ? Because faust made his claim at L-2 ?

If so I don't really think that's enough to outweigh the benefits.

[faust]

In my own biased opinion, it is of course better to have WW claim first.

[yuma]

I guess it's no use stretching this out. I have a result on WW that incriminates him. I think the best course of action would be for him to full claim, and then I state in detail what I know, but given people's reads on me, I don't know if you want to go through with a plan I proposed.

Ok. you are right. You aren't making any demands. This is certainly more of a suggestion. I think I read some posts by other people who were stating that WW should claim first as coming from you that were a little bit more "demanding" that WW claim than you were.

In this case, I propose to reject your plan and suggest that you claim first.

[Teproc]

Oh, because it forces WW to claim, right. Do you see a scenario here where WW doesn't en up claiming at all ?

[iguanaiguana]

I agree with Yuma here. I'd rather see Faust claim first.

Faust responds that he has been under pressure all day, and never had a chance to give his result in a pressure free environment. And while that's true, eh... tough. There were reasons for that pressure; the onus is now on Faust to give enough evidence or argument to make people want to vote elsewhere.

[yuma]

yuma : your opposition to a "simultaneous" claim is just based on principle ? Because faust made his claim at L-2 ?

If so I don't really think that's enough to outweigh the benefits.

It isn't on principle. At least not a "principle" that I am cognitively holding onto.

It is just that faust has stated he is fully ready to claim. So he should. No need to wait if that is how he feels.

WW has stated that he might be willing to claim. I am not going to force someone to claim if they don't feel that they should. A possible, investigative result of some unknown origin from a player that is suspect to begin with who is semi-unwilling to just straightforwardly come out and claim isn't enough to make me vote for someone without knowing what all the background is. If I am not comfortable voting with that reason then WW shouldn't feel compelled to claim either.

[yuma]

Oh, because it forces WW to claim, right. Do you see a scenario here where WW doesn't en up claiming at all ?

I have no idea. I mean yes, I have scenarios. This is a closed setup. I can imagine all sorts of scenarios. I dont' know how viable all of them are, but I can imagine scenarios.

[Haddock]

OK, so

ClaimVoteCount, 1.1.

WW first: faust

Simultaneous: Teproc, Haddock, egor

Faust first: WW, yuma, igu, Ampharos

Interleaving:

Currently not really clear: Hydrad, e, RR.

Is that everyone?

[Haddock]

Bolding for clarity.

ClaimVoteCount, 1.1.

WW first (1): faust

Simultaneous (3): Teproc, Haddock, egor

Faust first (4): WW, yuma, igu, Ampharos

Interleaving (0):

Currently not made themselves massively clear (3): Hydrad, e, RR.

[faust]

I mean, let's just put it to a vote. I would do so immeadiately, only I don't know the best procedure since we have 3 options... I claim first, WW claims first, we claim simulataneously. I think pretty much everyone so far who is okay with WW claiming first is also okay with a simultaneous claim? So we can just make it two.

A) faust claims first
B) faust does not claim first

From the responses in thread, it seems votes are currently distributed like this:

A: yuma, iguana
B: Teproc, e (?), RR, Haddock, Egor

PPE: Haddock is too fast. Though I believe 2 options are better than 3.

[faust]

And apparently we read things differently... I did not get a clear opinion from Ampharos, but thought that RR was pretty clear.

[iguanaiguana]

I'm pretty sure I want faust to claim first, if we're still voting on that.  I might change my mind though.

He says he's not sure twice and then the above.

[Teproc]

Well, yeah, that's what I'd call "on principle", because you don't seem to be putting much weight into how badly this can go.

I'll take a very simple example, I have no idea how it relates to the current situation, but there :
- faust claims Tracker, has seen WW targeting silverspawn. Incriminating, but not definitive
- WW claims, idk, Roleblocker or something. Something that's hard to prove.

What do we do know ? Both claims are believable, but there is still doubt because WW got to make his claim knowing who he was supposed to have targeted. So maybe we lynch WW anyway and either he flips scum (yay) or he flips town, and then what ? Or maybe we don't lynch any of them, but we can't completely trust their claim either, especially WWs in this case.

Now if we do a simultaneous claim, there's still the situation where we out two PRs for very little benefit, but at least there won't be as much doubt hanging over WWs claim because he madeit withoutknowledge of what he was being accused of. So we presumably get almost-ICs out of it if their claims support each other.

[Haddock]

I'm not going to go on a wild goose chase for his flavor. We should do one of the suggested options (claim at the same time or XYX).

This was the best we got from RR, which is somewhere between my two options of simultaneous and interleaving.

In any case if we're going for your two options, I make it:

Faust first: yuma, igu, Ampharos
Faust not first (ie. simultaneous): Teproc, Haddock, Egor, RR(?)
Unknown: e, Hydrad
and I guess
Not allowed to vote! faust, WW.

[Teproc]

ok I'm caught up. also the WW images actually got a laugh out of me so +1 there.

Now for what to do. I personally don't see an issue with the same time claim. But I'm really interested why WW doesn't seem to like it. Its either a scum attempt to try to live longer or... hmmm... I'm trying to think why would town do this.

In my opinion I don't think a VT would be so reluctent to claim. So I feel it might be a PR. But at the same time it sounds like WW has a thought of why faust could have an incriminating result on him and it be wrong? I can't think of how that would happen really at all from and PR's I know of. other then just redirection stuff.

This doesn't really make much sense to me for town!WW.

So I'm in favor of both claim at same time or WW first I guess.

Seems pretty clear to me.

[Haddock]

Sorry, yeah.  I guess that is clear.  I'm sure I read that, maybe I took the "I guess" to mean unclear. 

Faust first: yuma, igu, Ampharos
Faust not first (ie. simultaneous): Teproc, Haddock, Egor, Hydrad, RR(?)
Unknown: e


Up to confirming RR's vote, that's a simple majority.

The one problem I have with a simultaneous claim is the logistics.  What if the forum is suddenly slow?  What if PPE notifications mess things up?  and etc.

[Teproc]

To be clear, it's not going to be exactly simultaneous, because someone is going to get a PPE with the other's claim.

The idea would be to say "they both claim at exactly 11:00 am", so they write their claim beforehand, and press post exactly then. Let's say that if one of them posts more than 10 seconds after the other, he gets auto-lynched.

[iguanaiguana]

Has WW agreed to this?

[yuma]

To be clear, it's not going to be exactly simultaneous, because someone is going to get a PPE with the other's claim.

The idea would be to say "they both claim at exactly 11:00 am", so they write their claim beforehand, and press post exactly then. Let's say that if one of them posts more than 10 seconds after the other, he gets auto-lynched.

Ugh.

Like never in a million years would I ever agree to this if I were in faust's or WW's position.

You want scenarios where things go wrong and the result is awful. The above is just that.

[yuma]

Has WW agreed to this?

No. And he shouldn't. They are discussing this like WW and faust are equals when it comes to claiming when they aren't.

[Teproc]

Explain to me how it goes horribly wrong.

[Teproc]

Has WW agreed to this?

No. And he shouldn't. They are discussing this like WW and faust are equals when it comes to claiming when they aren't.

Wait, what ? Of course they are. They are both of unknown alignment.

[yuma]

Has WW agreed to this?

No. And he shouldn't. They are discussing this like WW and faust are equals when it comes to claiming when they aren't.

Wait, what ? Of course they are. They are both of unknown alignment.

No. Faust wants to claim. WW might want to claim.

Faust is scummy. WW is middling to null.

They aren't equal. Unknown alignment isn't the end all and be all.

[Teproc]

You are completely undermining the town!narrative for faust claiming at this particular point. If he's town, he's doing what Jimmmm did in Chococlate Factory, do you remember that ?

PPE : The difference between their level of scumminess pales in comparison to what their claim will mean to their alignment.

[yuma]

Explain to me how it goes horribly wrong.

1 scenario. WW's internet freezes up the moment that he is supposed to post. we all lynch him and he is town.

another. faust's modem loses connection the moment he is supposed to post. we all lynch him and he is town.

another. the forum has a glitch--known to happen here and there--inbetween one player posting and another doing so. one player gets lynched and is town.

these are perhaps remote, but they exist, along with others and if you are only giving only a 10 second window and then auto-reflexively lynching, then I think that is really poor idea.

But if you give a longer window then one player has an advantage, if you are treating them as equals.

So faust should just post his stuff. And WW can decide if he wants to claim and we can decide if we want him to claim.