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[Awaclus]

We pulled off a flawless win fake claiming Masons with the scummiest player in the game on our team.  To say we deserve no credit for the win is ridiculous.  Town may not have played well, but they got played by scum.

Well, as a direct result of the plan, we managed to get ourselves into a position where I had to not get lynched no matter what, and we committed to the plan way before we realized that this would eventually be the case. I think we did pull off the execution of the plan really well, as evidenced by our victory, but that doesn't mean the plan itself was very good (which you shouldn't take as an insult directed at you in particular — just because you came up with the idea doesn't mean that it's solely your job to think it through).

[Witherweaver]

I was also kind of thinking at the time "If Yuma hammers me, he's scum."  Most of it was frustration, but a small part was wanting to see his reaction.  Ironically, town!Yuma seemed to have legitimately accidentally hammered me.

[chairs]

And like, I really COULD NOT see the scumteam being not-masons by the end of the game, because it would've meant yuma/awaclus/uos and that was insane.

[chairs]

tbh, bravo to the scum team, the mason gambit really really convinced enough of Town that you weren't the right lynch that you got me lynched.

[Twistedarcher]

WW, I don't think you would have gotten lynched D2 without the self vote.

Hey my ultimatum was lynch Awaclus or lynch me, and you guys didn't lynch Awaclus~

and it was 4/4, without hydrad or jimmmmm on either! we had time, but awaclus' playstyle rattled us.

[Witherweaver]

WW, I don't think you would have gotten lynched D2 without the self vote.

Hey my ultimatum was lynch Awaclus or lynch me, and you guys didn't lynch Awaclus~

and it was 4/4, without hydrad or jimmmmm on either! we had time, but awaclus' playstyle rattled us.

He was at L-1 at one point, though, and I was screaming at people to hammer.

At least, I had thought so.

[ashersky]

It's hard for me to not think town's complaints about our play is anything more than sour grapes.  The fact of the matter is, we made a risky play, you bought it enough to allow us to win the game easily and flawlessly.

The Hydrad kill should have tipped you off more, but it didn't.

[Witherweaver]

It's hard for me to not think town's complaints about our play is anything more than sour grapes.  The fact of the matter is, we made a risky play, you bought it enough to allow us to win the game easily and flawlessly.

The Hydrad kill should have tipped you off more, but it didn't.

Why the Hydrad kill?

[ashersky]

Also, calling our win "ostensibly" flawless is the perfect evidence of you being unfairly poopy toward us.

I called it ostensibly because I don't think scum played well, mostly because of the mason claim. I just don't think it was good, and I have reasons for it. The biggest one is the existence of a one-shot strongman (on the scummiest player in your team), whose lynch would have immediately resulted into the loss of the game. I don't think the claim was well thought-out, and I think you got lucky with it. Other games would have been a better situation for trying it.

Likewise, I gave Awaclus and not you the mvp because the mason claim was your idea and I think it was bad play. If I thought the claim was good play, I would have given you the mvp.

The argument of 'we won, therefore it's good' sounds horrible to someone who plays prismata and poker. In a slightly simplified but fairly accurate model, your play determines the likeliness of your win, which, with a sample size of 1, makes 'but it worked' a really shitty argument. It's like saying going allin with A6 against AA is good play because you hit a flop of 66678.

The above said, I never said you played worse than town. Dunno if I think that... town didn't play well either, like I've gone over already.

Flawless win is a defined term.  There's no ostensibly about it.

You (and others) can't break down mafia into a science.  There is feel, intuition, and magic.  If it was solvable by math and logic, it wouldn't need humans to play.

To say the mason claim was a bad play is not taking into consideration the players.  A running play on third and long could be a "bad play" but if the defense lined up to defend something else and you get the first down, it was a great play.

[Witherweaver]

Like I said in the speccy, I'm only disappointed because I wanted to try it as scum.

[ashersky]

It's hard for me to not think town's complaints about our play is anything more than sour grapes.  The fact of the matter is, we made a risky play, you bought it enough to allow us to win the game easily and flawlessly.

The Hydrad kill should have tipped you off more, but it didn't.

Why the Hydrad kill?

Why would scum kill him that night with masons running around?  That was a lucky shot by us, and I thought we'd have a hard time fighting off the "why are masons alive" thing.

[Witherweaver]

It's hard for me to not think town's complaints about our play is anything more than sour grapes.  The fact of the matter is, we made a risky play, you bought it enough to allow us to win the game easily and flawlessly.

The Hydrad kill should have tipped you off more, but it didn't.

Why the Hydrad kill?

Why would scum kill him that night with masons running around?  That was a lucky shot by us, and I thought we'd have a hard time fighting off the "why are masons alive" thing.

Well you always have the defense "scum wants to try to lynch Masons".

[ashersky]

I don't agree with any kind of punishment or assuming anything about UOS's disappearance. However I do think the result is unfair on Town. It just meant we had 0% chance of winning. Subbing doesn't seem like a good solution either though. I guess the only fair solution I can think of is to call the game off, since a bunch of players now have no chance of winning through no fault of their own.

Maybe something we could do in general is ask 1-2 people to sign up to a game as sub, and at least somewhat follow the game so that they are ready to sub in for situations like this.

Do you truly believe all lurkers should just be allowed to lurk?  You don't agree that lurking is truly a problem for these games?

No punishment?  I just can't understand that stance at all.

[yuma]

Honestly the number one reason why I didn't push harder for the masons to get lynched was that I feared a back lash of "you just want to lynch the masons for a mislynch" in the case that the masons were in fact town.

That was an extremely pressing concern in my mind, and a completely valid one as well.

Also I should have been more suspicious of how dismissive ash was being of my case on awaclus. It was a really, really good case. Wasn't it? But I wondered if he just didn't trust me anymore after being away for a year.

Even though we didn't win, I feel that my scumhunting skills are still up to par... Don't really think the other townies have much of an excuse for ignoring me on that. Except that maybe they were suspicious of me as well? But pretty much no one wanted to actually lynch me. They didn't think I was scum, but they didn't trust me enough to see a good case laid out in front of them.

[yuma]

It's hard for me to not think town's complaints about our play is anything more than sour grapes.  The fact of the matter is, we made a risky play, you bought it enough to allow us to win the game easily and flawlessly.

The Hydrad kill should have tipped you off more, but it didn't.

I certainly don't feel that scum played badly. They played perfectly. Town perhaps could have caught them if they had been paying enough attention, but part of that is that mafia was doing a really good job at ensuring there were other things to not pay attention to.

I mean the chairs thing completely derailed any focus that I was paying on awaclus.... and yes put it onto ash/gk but also more squarely onto chairs.

It worked. It might have failed spectacularly, but it didn't. It worked. MVPs all around.

[ashersky]

Thanks, Yuma.

I disagree with SS that town sucked.

[faust]

It's hard for me to not think town's complaints about our play is anything more than sour grapes.  The fact of the matter is, we made a risky play, you bought it enough to allow us to win the game easily and flawlessly.

The Hydrad kill should have tipped you off more, but it didn't.

Your play was not bad play because it was risky - I agree that a Mason fakeclaim is a completely sensible thin to try out. The claim was bad because it tied all three scum together in an absolutely unnecessary way.

[faust]

Do you truly believe all lurkers should just be allowed to lurk?  You don't agree that lurking is truly a problem for these games?

No punishment?  I just can't understand that stance at all.

Well, I would agree in general and lurking is a problem, but I don't think UoS just lurked here for the fun of it. He's clearly having some sort of issue and didn't even respond to my PMs for M69.

[Twistedarcher]

Honestly the number one reason why I didn't push harder for the masons to get lynched was that I feared a back lash of "you just want to lynch the masons for a mislynch" in the case that the masons were in fact town.

That was an extremely pressing concern in my mind, and a completely valid one as well.

Also I should have been more suspicious of how dismissive ash was being of my case on awaclus. It was a really, really good case. Wasn't it? But I wondered if he just didn't trust me anymore after being away for a year.

Even though we didn't win, I feel that my scumhunting skills are still up to par... Don't really think the other townies have much of an excuse for ignoring me on that. Except that maybe they were suspicious of me as well? But pretty much no one wanted to actually lynch me. They didn't think I was scum, but they didn't trust me enough to see a good case laid out in front of them.

I had trouble separating the case on Awaclus from Awaclus' meta

[faust]

The thread title bothers me. Why keep the result hidden? Everyone who followed the game knows that it ending now can only mean that scum won, and everyone who did not follow doesn't care.

[faust]

Honestly the number one reason why I didn't push harder for the masons to get lynched was that I feared a back lash of "you just want to lynch the masons for a mislynch" in the case that the masons were in fact town.

That was an extremely pressing concern in my mind, and a completely valid one as well.

Also I should have been more suspicious of how dismissive ash was being of my case on awaclus. It was a really, really good case. Wasn't it? But I wondered if he just didn't trust me anymore after being away for a year.

Even though we didn't win, I feel that my scumhunting skills are still up to par... Don't really think the other townies have much of an excuse for ignoring me on that. Except that maybe they were suspicious of me as well? But pretty much no one wanted to actually lynch me. They didn't think I was scum, but they didn't trust me enough to see a good case laid out in front of them.

I had trouble separating the case on Awaclus from Awaclus' meta

+1

Also I didn't like the way it was presented at all. It made me all angry and wanting to defend Awaclus.

[Awaclus]

The thread title bothers me. Why keep the result hidden? Everyone who followed the game knows that it ending now can only mean that scum won, and everyone who did not follow doesn't care.

Got to get those clicks.

[skip wooznum]

The thread title bothers me. Why keep the result hidden? Everyone who followed the game knows that it ending now can only mean that scum won, and everyone who did not follow doesn't care.

when I first found forum games I went and read through a mafia game thread, and I probably would have preferred not having known the outcome, so I definitely agree that it shouldn't be spolied in the title. I would also argue that the flips on the main post on page one should be in spoilers.

[scott_pilgrim]

The thread title bothers me. Why keep the result hidden? Everyone who followed the game knows that it ending now can only mean that scum won, and everyone who did not follow doesn't care.

when I first found forum games I went and read through a mafia game thread, and I probably would have preferred not having known the outcome, so I definitely agree that it shouldn't be spolied in the title. I would also argue that the flips on the main post on page one should be in spoilers.

These are good ideas that I think I will try to do if I mod more games in the future.  In fact I may go back and edit past games I've modded too.

[Twistedarcher]

Honestly the number one reason why I didn't push harder for the masons to get lynched was that I feared a back lash of "you just want to lynch the masons for a mislynch" in the case that the masons were in fact town.

That was an extremely pressing concern in my mind, and a completely valid one as well.

Also I should have been more suspicious of how dismissive ash was being of my case on awaclus. It was a really, really good case. Wasn't it? But I wondered if he just didn't trust me anymore after being away for a year.

Even though we didn't win, I feel that my scumhunting skills are still up to par... Don't really think the other townies have much of an excuse for ignoring me on that. Except that maybe they were suspicious of me as well? But pretty much no one wanted to actually lynch me. They didn't think I was scum, but they didn't trust me enough to see a good case laid out in front of them.

I had trouble separating the case on Awaclus from Awaclus' meta

+1

Also I didn't like the way it was presented at all. It made me all angry and wanting to defend Awaclus.

To be fair, I think that's more on Awaclus than Yuma. Yuma doesn't know Awaclus' meta. Looking back I still can't separate this from town Awaclus performances, which is great for scum Awaclus, and terrible for town Awaclus' teammates.