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[UmbrageOfSnow]

I think we generally undervalue hypoclaiming around here.  And yeah, I do worry about Hiders becoming too much of a focus of strategy in a way that other roles don't.  I like them but they weren't my first thought here.

It's always possible to create an arbitrary list of players as a way for everyone to hypoclaim who they'd hide behind if they were the Hider.  No way to fix that.  But with 2-NKs a night (although that never happened this game) a random-hider-target strategy seems less effective, since chances of dying are pretty high (up to 6 deadly targets at the start of the night on N1, if Vig and Mafia target town.)

It's reasonably likely that it will find one scum, but I am thinking it'd be less likely to be gamebreaking here.  Would definitely look at some best and worst case scenarios before actually making a change like that though.

[silverspawn]

I think we generally undervalue hypoclaiming around here.  And yeah, I do worry about Hiders becoming too much of a focus of strategy in a way that other roles don't.  I like them but they weren't my first thought here.

It's always possible to create an arbitrary list of players as a way for everyone to hypoclaim who they'd hide behind if they were the Hider.  No way to fix that.

Can't you just forbid using your flavor name for any sort of code?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

You can, but you could still create a workaround in game.

For example: At the end of the day, I'm going to look at the second of my last post of the day, take that mod the number of players remaining as we go into night in the order of the list in the OP, and target that player.

Scum could technically use that to narrow down the Hider, so it isn't as good as using a flavor-name based method, but most scumteams aren't going to bother doing it for every player to narrow the list.  (I totally would though.)

So yeah, there's some merit to disallowing a flavor-based method, and maybe we should.  But I think Hiders are toast soon enough in this setup that even with a method that would allow scum to narrow down the target, they wouldn't get it narrowed very much before the Hider is dead anyway.  In which case even disallowing that seems irrelevant.  If Hider hides behind the other scumteam, or whoever the Vig targets they die too remember.

But anyway, what do you think of the powerlevel of Hider + Tracker + Vig + Backup Vig?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

And again, for this setup I think less subtle crumbs and deliberately aiming to create ICs is the best play for Hider.

[ashersky]

I don't like it.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I don't like it.

Do you think it's better or worse than the current PR loadout?  What about the Watcher->Tracker substitution on it's own?

[silverspawn]

For example: At the end of the day, I'm going to look at the second of my last post of the day, take that mod the number of players remaining as we go into night in the order of the list in the OP, and target that player.

the second what? the second number of the index?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

For example: At the end of the day, I'm going to look at the second of my last post of the day, take that mod the number of players remaining as we go into night in the order of the list in the OP, and target that player.

the second what? the second number of the index?

I meant the seconds in the timestamp.  But whatever, there are any number of ways to come up with something public and randomish but not provably outside-the-game random.

[ashersky]

I don't like it.

Do you think it's better or worse than the current PR loadout?  What about the Watcher->Tracker substitution on it's own?

I don't think hiding fits at all.

Tracker vs watcher?  Eh.  What's the point of either in this setup?  Is it to catch mafia?  To catch the JK?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

If town has only the vigs, they're chances are significantly worse than the Mimes or the Mafia.  Town needs some investigative power.  And it would be nice if it impacted Mimes and Mafia more-or-less equally.

[silverspawn]

For example: At the end of the day, I'm going to look at the second of my last post of the day, take that mod the number of players remaining as we go into night in the order of the list in the OP, and target that player.

the second what? the second number of the index?

I meant the seconds in the timestamp.

ah, that makes loads more sense.

You could code that, but everything you code this way is breakable by the mafia. I don't think it's a trivial problem.

It also wouldn't be great if it comes down to a matter of who invests more time into breaking codes.

I would just forbid it entirely.

[ashersky]

If town has only the vigs, they're chances are significantly worse than the Mimes or the Mafia.  Town needs some investigative power.  And it would be nice if it impacted Mimes and Mafia more-or-less equally.

So make the Neapolitan guy a full cop and drop everything else. 

[UmbrageOfSnow]

If town has only the vigs, they're chances are significantly worse than the Mimes or the Mafia.  Town needs some investigative power.  And it would be nice if it impacted Mimes and Mafia more-or-less equally.

So make the Neapolitan guy a full cop and drop everything else.

That makes it way more swingy.

[ashersky]

If town has only the vigs, they're chances are significantly worse than the Mimes or the Mafia.  Town needs some investigative power.  And it would be nice if it impacted Mimes and Mafia more-or-less equally.

So make the Neapolitan guy a full cop and drop everything else.

That makes it way more swingy.

Right now, neo outs PRs as much as catches scum (smart scum claims PR when caught to force the counter).  Cop just dies after catching one scum.

[ashersky]

You could have a cop and a mime cop, I guess.  Roll them separate from alignment, so you could have a mime cop.

[silverspawn]

If town has only the vigs, they're chances are significantly worse than the Mimes or the Mafia.  Town needs some investigative power.  And it would be nice if it impacted Mimes and Mafia more-or-less equally.

So make the Neapolitan guy a full cop and drop everything else.

please no cop. neapolitan is way more interesting role, because

- it is much weaker
- it outs PR's which is a drawback that makes it more difficult to play
- it's not a cop

You could have a cop and a mime cop, I guess.  Roll them separate from alignment, so you could have a mime cop.

why do you want to replace the interesting role with more boring and straight forward roles?

[ashersky]

Interesting =/= balanced, which seems to be UOS's goal.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Yeah, potentially outing the Vig is a feature not a bug.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Interesting =/= balanced, which seems to be UOS's goal.

Why not both?

[ashersky]

I think Vanilla Cop (which is what the Neapolitan is), is a weakened version of cop created for just the reasons you stated.

UOS thinks town is too weak -- easy fix is fix the weakened role.

[ashersky]

Interesting =/= balanced, which seems to be UOS's goal.

Why not both?

There's a reason most RMM games, like mine, have disclaimers.

[ashersky]

You are smart enough to know that interesting/fun play isn't always the best way to win, right?  Same goes for game design.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I think Vanilla Cop (which is what the Neapolitan is), is a weakened version of cop created for just the reasons you stated.

UOS thinks town is too weak -- easy fix is fix the weakened role.

I'm actually worried town is too strong.  I think it is too weak if it's Vig + Backup Vig + some other weak role.  I think 4 PRs is probably the sweet spot.  But I'm worried the Watcher and Neapolitan are too much by a bit.  On the other hand, as I said, all the town PRs had very good accuracy this game, so maybe it's nothing.

[silverspawn]

I don't follow, ashersky, Do you think simply changing the watcher into a tracker makes town too strong? Too weak?

Cause I feel that could be about right, and it preserves the interesting dynamics, and it's just a simple change.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I think, in general, Watcher > Tracker, but Watcher has more interesting decision making for both the Watcher and Scum.