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Author Topic: M66: Paris Mafia (Game Over, Town Wins)  (Read 132408 times)

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scott_pilgrim

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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #425 on: August 25, 2015, 01:46:24 am »

Vote Count 1.7:

“The loneliest moment in someone’s life is when they are watching their whole world fall apart, and all they can do is stare blankly.” ― F. Scott Fitzgerald, The Great Gatsby

Faust (2): silverspawn, Seprix
QuickSync (1): chairs
Witherweaver (2): gkrieg13, Ghacob
Awaclus (1): Witherweaver
silverspawn (1): faust
XP (1): Awaclus
Seprix (2): Teproc, XP
sudgy (1): QuickSync

Not Voting (2): EgorK, sudgy

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 will end at 6:00 p.m. on August 27, 2015.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 10:34:15 am by UmbrageOfSnow »
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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #426 on: August 25, 2015, 02:58:44 am »

Why do you think Sudgy is scum?

To put it in the briefest way I can think of, I just expect better from him and him not living up to that, to me, is an indication that he is scum.
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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #427 on: August 25, 2015, 06:51:59 am »

Do you think they're mimes?

Well, my opinions about this are not very strong and somewhat difficult to explain, but I'll try anyway.

Assuming that the only information we have about their alignments is the setup post (i.e. just the mathematical probabilities — so this can be applied to any two players at this point):

  • The odds that at least one of them is scum are ~58%
  • The odds that they both are scum are ~9%
  • The odds that they are from two different scum teams are ~6%
  • The odds that they are scum from the same team are ~3% (~1.5% for any given team)

So it doesn't look incredibly likely that they both are mimes. I think that their interactions have made it somewhat more likely that they both are mimes, but I wouldn't say that I think that they're mimes. I think it's more likely that they are both mafia, but I still wouldn't say that I think they're both mafia.

In any case, their behavior has been weird for certain IMO. The possible explanations are:

1) They're both town and they happen to act weird in this game for whatever reason

I don't like the explanation that they're acting weird despite being town. However, I could accept the explanation that they're not really acting all that weird and I'm just thinking that it's weird even though it's not, given how likely it is purely from the mathematical point of view that they're both town.

2) One of them is acting weird because he's scum, the other one is acting weird despite being town

The above applies for this, but I like this explanation a lot more, because it involves me being 50% less mistaken about their weirdness and it's also mathematically the most likely scenario. If this is the situation, I think it's super hard to say which one of them is the scum, and if he's mafia or mime, since I think they are being approximately equally weird and there's an incentive to do this as both scum alignments. But I think that the one who started OMGUSing first (i.e. silverspawn) might be a little bit more likely to be a mime, in case he is the scum, but OTOH a mime might also want to start a nonsense fight and a mafioso might OMGUS either because of the pressure, and/or because he thinks that purposefully avoiding OMGUSing would look worse.

3) Both of them are acting weird because they're scum from different teams

I also like this explanation. The odds are a lot smaller here, but they aren't negligibly small. The above about silverspawn being more likely to be a mime and faust being more likely to be a mafioso also applies here.

4) Both of them are acting weird because it's a staged fight

I hate how unlikely this is, because this is clearly the best explanation, since the other explanations involve at least one of them playing not as well as I'd expect from them. This is probably at least a decent play for both teams, since the mafia benefits from having the interactions, and the mimes benefit from managing to get the other mime lynched. I feel like this is very significantly more likely than the 3%, like maybe something like 10-20%. But even then it's not very likely.


Anyway, lynching one of them doesn't seem to be the worst play ever. If I had to choose from these 2, I'd lynch faust. I still wouldn't lynch him over XP.
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Seprix

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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #428 on: August 25, 2015, 09:47:19 am »

I fell asleep writing. Now I have to start from scratch, but whatever.
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faust

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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #429 on: August 25, 2015, 09:53:08 am »

Both faust and silverspawn feel a bit weird here to me. I guess it could be a staged fight by scum.

You think their interaction was weird? Cuz I actually feel it came off as a really genuine Town vs. Town interaction.

How did it happen then that your read on me changed from null/townie to null?
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faust

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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #430 on: August 25, 2015, 09:55:00 am »

even if seprix is scummy, he's not nearly as scummy as faust.

Seprix is much more likely to be mafia than faust though. So is chairs, to a lesser extent, and WW even.

none of them is nearly as likely to be mafia than faust

I feel like playing a game with ashersky, but without the good parts of it.
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faust

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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #431 on: August 25, 2015, 09:57:24 am »


Rather than posting lengthy fluff posts, I would like for you to point out why you think our interaction is "weird".
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faust

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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #432 on: August 25, 2015, 09:59:42 am »

I think Faust and SS are both town honestly.

Faust: Null

Yeah, so this doesn't quite sync up (ha,ha). I continue to believe that Quickie is town.
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Awaclus

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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #433 on: August 25, 2015, 10:07:54 am »

Rather than posting lengthy fluff posts, I would like for you to point out why you think our interaction is "weird".

I'm sure you would.
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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #434 on: August 25, 2015, 10:09:07 am »

Did I mention

Vote: Awaclus?
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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #435 on: August 25, 2015, 10:22:00 am »

Rather than posting lengthy fluff posts, I would like for you to point out why you think our interaction is "weird".

I'm sure you would.

Man, you've gotta stop this. You might not think it's anti-town, but everyone else does, and you getting lynched does no one any good (assuming you're town).

Not sure why faust is overreacting to silver so much. I think that means faust is town ? Have a hard time imagining scum!faust do that.
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sudgy

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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #436 on: August 25, 2015, 12:25:23 pm »

Why do you think Sudgy is scum?

To put it in the briefest way I can think of, I just expect better from him and him not living up to that, to me, is an indication that he is scum.

What do you think I could do?  I'm not too good at this game, and I don't really see how bad play makes you think someone is scum (I could see bad play making you want to lynch someone though)

I will reread the thread and maybe post a reads list later.  I have a lot of stuff going on.
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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #437 on: August 25, 2015, 12:46:07 pm »

Did I mention

Vote: Awaclus?

We're getting close to deadline and there's not a wagon to speak of really. We def need to lynch someone today.

Vote: Awaclus
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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #438 on: August 25, 2015, 12:47:47 pm »

Faust is a much better lynch than Awaclus. I mean, have you read what he's been saying?
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faust

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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #439 on: August 25, 2015, 12:51:20 pm »

Faust is a much better lynch than Awaclus. I mean, have you read what he's been saying?

o_O Why do you think I'm scummy?
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faust

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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #440 on: August 25, 2015, 12:55:27 pm »

I don't like the Awaclus wagon. Here's the thing: For a player who usually gets mislynched, the best play as mime is to emulate your usual play, because chances are you'll get lynched at some point.

I think Awaclus is pretty much his usual self. That means he can be town just being himself, he can be mime just being himself, or he can be mafia!Awaclus trying to appear like he usually does. I don't see mafia!Awaclus really (I believe the long post from earlier is something mafia!Awaclus would shy away from). So he's town or mime. Not a great lynch in either case.
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chairs

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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #441 on: August 25, 2015, 01:06:57 pm »

The mime team is really neat conceptually, and is throwing an interesting wrench into our gameplay here.

vote: faust. Your concern about mimes, specifically, feels scummy to me.

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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #442 on: August 25, 2015, 01:14:28 pm »

So here are my thoughts on rereading the first 4 pages(50 per page) of the thread.  XP comes off horribly scummy for his VT/not VT/whatever claim.  He says that it is boring to not be scum/mime in this setup, regardless of the PR.  I disagree with that, but whatever.  In college mafia, he wasn't very scummy, because I think he paid more attention that game to his posting than he did here.  This claim here is kinda similar to the claim he had on the first day of mist born mafia, for which he was lynched D1, because of claiming third party because he didn't read the win condition carefully.  So it's hard for me to call on this one, because in the two games I've played, he got lynched when he was town because he acted scummy, or not lynched because he was scum and was paying more attention.  I don't think anyone is scummy at all for being on his wagon.

QuickSync comes off as very scummy as well, but this is more of an aggressive scummy, caused by his interactions with other people.  I think it is more of a different site meta scummy because I didn't see anything glaring with his voting, or with his reasoning, or necessarily with his reads lists.  He does go from having lots of town reads, to having null reads after the discussion on how town should have lots of null reads at the beginning because they have limited/no information.  I'm still on the fence if the reads lists give him town cred or make him scummier. 

I still feel like WW is scummy.  This is mainly just a gut read for me, but there is just something about him. 

I'll reread the second half of the thread later today, or right now if we don't leave to go to lunch soon.
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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #443 on: August 25, 2015, 01:23:08 pm »

Man, you've gotta stop this. You might not think it's anti-town, but everyone else does, and you getting lynched does no one any good (assuming you're town).

I'm not getting lynched today. Vote: Teproc
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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #444 on: August 25, 2015, 01:29:03 pm »

Ok mainly just looked at the main interactions from the middle of the game.  I feel like the two major ones were Seprix/QS  and Faust/ss.  Coming out of it QS seems scummier and scummier.  His reads of people seem forced, he seems to be fake scum hunting.  He is definitely my top lynch today.  Seprix comes out of this townier for me. 

Faust is definitely different.  I don't understand why he would be different, considering the mafia/vig would be more likely to shoot weird!Faust than ExtremelyUsefulTown!Faust.  So it seems like as town, you would want to be the best town!self you could be.  ss going at him like that makes me feel like he is town, but not very strong town.  It puts me on the fence about him, like he's on my watch list.

Other things that stuck out to me: Teproc seems towny.  I haven't read pony-mafia very much but this seems like what I followed of him in college mafia.  His reads seem good and well founded.

Chairs seems like chairs did in mist born mafia.  Not super useful the first day, but he makes pretty good reads. 

null from sudgy.  I'll have to put ww in the null category for now.  Nothing from EgorK.  Null on Awaclus.  Awa seems like a pretty stylized player so I have no idea how to read him.  He's kinda like mail-mi to me. 

vote: QuickSync

PPE
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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #445 on: August 25, 2015, 02:29:33 pm »

The mime team is really neat conceptually, and is throwing an interesting wrench into our gameplay here.

vote: faust. Your concern about mimes, specifically, feels scummy to me.

I am not specifically concerned about mimes.
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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #446 on: August 25, 2015, 02:53:10 pm »

I don't like the Awaclus wagon. Here's the thing: For a player who usually gets mislynched, the best play as mime is to emulate your usual play, because chances are you'll get lynched at some point.

I think Awaclus is pretty much his usual self. That means he can be town just being himself, he can be mime just being himself, or he can be mafia!Awaclus trying to appear like he usually does. I don't see mafia!Awaclus really (I believe the long post from earlier is something mafia!Awaclus would shy away from). So he's town or mime. Not a great lynch in either case.

Okay, this is not a bad point.

What's a better wagon?  I don't agree with you on Silver, though.
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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #447 on: August 25, 2015, 03:10:53 pm »

For my own sanity and remembrance more than anything else:
"Day 1 ends August 27, 6 PM Forum Time."
leaving us with ~2 days, which we don't want to rush
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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #448 on: August 25, 2015, 03:29:52 pm »

So here are my thoughts on rereading the first 4 pages(50 per page) of the thread.  XP comes off horribly scummy for his VT/not VT/whatever claim.  He says that it is boring to not be scum/mime in this setup, regardless of the PR.  I disagree with that, but whatever.  In college mafia, he wasn't very scummy, because I think he paid more attention that game to his posting than he did here.  This claim here is kinda similar to the claim he had on the first day of mist born mafia, for which he was lynched D1, because of claiming third party because he didn't read the win condition carefully.  So it's hard for me to call on this one, because in the two games I've played, he got lynched when he was town because he acted scummy, or not lynched because he was scum and was paying more attention.  I don't think anyone is scummy at all for being on his wagon.

QuickSync comes off as very scummy as well, but this is more of an aggressive scummy, caused by his interactions with other people.  I think it is more of a different site meta scummy because I didn't see anything glaring with his voting, or with his reasoning, or necessarily with his reads lists.  He does go from having lots of town reads, to having null reads after the discussion on how town should have lots of null reads at the beginning because they have limited/no information.  I'm still on the fence if the reads lists give him town cred or make him scummier. 

I still feel like WW is scummy.  This is mainly just a gut read for me, but there is just something about him. 

I'll reread the second half of the thread later today, or right now if we don't leave to go to lunch soon.
Ok mainly just looked at the main interactions from the middle of the game.  I feel like the two major ones were Seprix/QS  and Faust/ss.  Coming out of it QS seems scummier and scummier.  His reads of people seem forced, he seems to be fake scum hunting.  He is definitely my top lynch today.  Seprix comes out of this townier for me. 

Faust is definitely different.  I don't understand why he would be different, considering the mafia/vig would be more likely to shoot weird!Faust than ExtremelyUsefulTown!Faust.  So it seems like as town, you would want to be the best town!self you could be.  ss going at him like that makes me feel like he is town, but not very strong town.  It puts me on the fence about him, like he's on my watch list.

Other things that stuck out to me: Teproc seems towny.  I haven't read pony-mafia very much but this seems like what I followed of him in college mafia.  His reads seem good and well founded.

Chairs seems like chairs did in mist born mafia.  Not super useful the first day, but he makes pretty good reads. 

null from sudgy.  I'll have to put ww in the null category for now.  Nothing from EgorK.  Null on Awaclus.  Awa seems like a pretty stylized player so I have no idea how to read him.  He's kinda like mail-mi to me. 

vote: QuickSync

PPE

I honestly don't know whether to think you scummy or townie for these two posts :/
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Re: M66: Paris Mafia (Day 1)
« Reply #449 on: August 25, 2015, 03:51:31 pm »

@Awaclus: in past games you made this speech about how, as town, you just make short posts, while as scum, you find yourself making large posts without being able to stop them. How do you explain your large post here?
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