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Author Topic: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint  (Read 30071 times)

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Witherweaver

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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2015, 09:23:01 am »
0

Doesn't everyone just use an app to randomize anyway?  Even shuffling 100 cards back when there were only 3 expansions was a chore and a half.

Yeah, they're, like, convenient, fast, and super easy to use.
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Sidsel

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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2015, 09:29:41 am »
0

Doesn't everyone just use an app to randomize anyway?  Even shuffling 100 cards back when there were only 3 expansions was a chore and a half.

Yeah, they're, like, convenient, fast, and super easy to use.

Yep...

and then Black Market turns up and I have to shuffle anyway. :/
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Witherweaver

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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2015, 09:31:39 am »
+1

Doesn't everyone just use an app to randomize anyway?  Even shuffling 100 cards back when there were only 3 expansions was a chore and a half.

Yeah, they're, like, convenient, fast, and super easy to use.

Yep...

and then Black Market turns up and I have to shuffle anyway. :/

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12942.msg480419#msg480419
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Asper

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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2015, 09:43:17 am »
+1

We have a certain system where poeple take turns revealing cards, and may decide whether the card they revealed goes in. This way you have some effect on the game, though your effect gets smaller the more you veto. You can't really do that with different backs.

It's a perfectly understandable decision to not push the expansion back for this. I find it disapppointing that fixing a missprint in later releases seems to generally be out of the question, though.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 01:45:05 pm by Asper »
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Voltaire

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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2015, 11:05:40 am »
+2

Doesn't everyone just use an app to randomize anyway?  Even shuffling 100 cards back when there were only 3 expansions was a chore and a half.

Yeah, they're, like, convenient, fast, and super easy to use.

And require owning a smartphone.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2015, 11:07:07 am »
0

Doesn't everyone just use an app to randomize anyway?  Even shuffling 100 cards back when there were only 3 expansions was a chore and a half.

Yeah, they're, like, convenient, fast, and super easy to use.

And require owning a smartphone.

Not really; there are multiple websites that do the same thing; which only require owning a computer with internet.
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Voltaire

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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2015, 11:10:25 am »
+3

Doesn't everyone just use an app to randomize anyway?  Even shuffling 100 cards back when there were only 3 expansions was a chore and a half.

Yeah, they're, like, convenient, fast, and super easy to use.

And require owning a smartphone.

Not really; there are multiple websites that do the same thing; which only require owning a computer with internet.

And I do enjoy lugging my desktop around with me to game nights!
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GendoIkari

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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2015, 11:22:06 am »
+3

Doesn't everyone just use an app to randomize anyway?  Even shuffling 100 cards back when there were only 3 expansions was a chore and a half.

Yeah, they're, like, convenient, fast, and super easy to use.

And require owning a smartphone.

Not really; there are multiple websites that do the same thing; which only require owning a computer with internet.

And I do enjoy lugging my desktop around with me to game nights!

I would think that at least 1 of the following things would be true a vast majority of the time:

1. The game night is at a location where there is a computer, like someone's house.
2. At least 1 person at the game night has a smart phone.
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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2015, 12:36:32 pm »
0

Which app do most people use?  I have one I like but it doesn't have Prince.
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werothegreat

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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #34 on: April 09, 2015, 12:36:55 pm »
0

Which app do most people use?  I have one I like but it doesn't have Prince.

dougz actually made one.
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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2015, 12:59:14 pm »
+9

I get the following probabilities for number of events drawn using all kingdom cards (236 kingdom, 20 events, draw until you have 10 kingdom).

0: 43.66%
1: 35.50%
2: 15.14% (2+: 20.84%)
3: 4.47%
4: 1.02%
5: 0.19%
6+: 0.03%

If you want to limit the number of events to 2, you can approximate these probabilities quite well by rolling d6+d8:

2-7: 21/48 = 43.75% (0 events)
8-10: 17/48 = 35.42% (1 event)
11-14: 10/48 = 20.83% (2 events)
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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2015, 02:57:03 pm »
+4

Which app do most people use?  I have one I like but it doesn't have Prince.
Determine one card everyone hates or think is pointless.  Have that card represent Prince in the randomizer. Problem solved.
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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2015, 03:11:18 pm »
+1

Dominion Shuffle on Android has Prince.

I still had to abandon it to playtest cards (fwp) so what I did was make this spreadsheet I can't link you because it has spoilers on it and holy cow I almost did without thinking.  First row is the name of a card or whatever.  Put =rand() in the last column on every line and sort by that column.  Sadly, the Android spreadsheets app is bad about letting you use normal spreadsheet functions so I have to do the sorting on my PC. 

Picking Shelters and Colonies is trickier for me.  What I do for Shelters is look at the kingdom and make a judgment call, like is this more interesting with Necropolis or do I need the Estates?  With Colonies, I roll a random number out of 10.  1 for Colonies, and add 2 to that number for each Prosperity card.  Kinda sucks but it's one way to go.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 03:13:29 pm by jsh357 »
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Arctic Penguin

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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2015, 04:18:12 pm »
+3

There's a relatively new Android app, Jack of All Dominion, that I think looks very nice. It's the only app I've found that includes all of the card text (not the art), which can come in handy when you're playing with people who haven't memorized all the cards and the Kingdom is facing away from them. It has a nifty little VP counter if you can't live without one of those. It has all the published recommended Kingdoms. It has all the Promos and even already includes 13 of the previewed Adventures cards.
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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2015, 04:52:39 pm »
0

There's a relatively new Android app, Jack of All Dominion, that I think looks very nice. It's the only app I've found that includes all of the card text (not the art), which can come in handy when you're playing with people who haven't memorized all the cards and the Kingdom is facing away from them. It has a nifty little VP counter if you can't live without one of those. It has all the published recommended Kingdoms. It has all the Promos and even already includes 13 of the previewed Adventures cards.

I like it.  The interface is clean and uncluttered, and it's very intuitive.
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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2015, 05:01:43 pm »
0

There's a relatively new Android app, Jack of All Dominion, that I think looks very nice. It's the only app I've found that includes all of the card text (not the art), which can come in handy when you're playing with people who haven't memorized all the cards and the Kingdom is facing away from them. It has a nifty little VP counter if you can't live without one of those. It has all the published recommended Kingdoms. It has all the Promos and even already includes 13 of the previewed Adventures cards.

I like it.  The interface is clean and uncluttered, and it's very intuitive.

Just tested it myself.  Looks pretty nice overall, but it has that silly 3-5 Alchemy cards rule by default, so make sure to turn it off unless you want it for some reason.  I will probably use this instead of Dominion Shuffle from now on.

I wish you could generate kingdoms with fewer cards with one of these things; it's nice for playtesting.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2015, 05:17:30 pm »
+1

Looks pretty nice overall, but it has that silly 3-5 Alchemy cards rule by default, so make sure to turn it off unless you want it for some reason.

You mean some reason like wanting Transmute and P.Stone not to be dead on every board? Or some reason like being able to buy an Apothecary instead of nothing when you miss your turn 3 Familiar by $1?
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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2015, 05:18:46 pm »
0

Doesn't everyone just use an app to randomize anyway?  Even shuffling 100 cards back when there were only 3 expansions was a chore and a half.

The guy I know who has all the cards just carries them in one case, not sorted in any particular order, so that you can just grab 10 from wherever and end up with a perfectly fine kingdom. Even easier than using an app (as I used to do). Not as truly random, of course, since I imagine the cards near the front and back of each row get used less, but good enough.
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jsh357

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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2015, 05:27:48 pm »
0

Looks pretty nice overall, but it has that silly 3-5 Alchemy cards rule by default, so make sure to turn it off unless you want it for some reason.

You mean some reason like wanting Transmute and P.Stone not to be dead on every board? Or some reason like being able to buy an Apothecary instead of nothing when you miss your turn 3 Familiar by $1?

I'm not going to argue too hard about this with you since you play a variant of Dominion where 2 expansions are used at once, but Transmute and P. Stone being exceptions to a rule proves nothing.  The Familiar thing sucks, but it's not like the first shuffle doesn't already have problems. (like getting 4/4 on a Silver/Silver opening when you need 5s)  I prefer the increased variety in possible kingdoms.
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Voltaire

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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2015, 05:42:52 pm »
+4

a variant of Dominion where 2 expansions are used at once

Not a variant.
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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2015, 05:51:14 pm »
+3

Looks pretty nice overall, but it has that silly 3-5 Alchemy cards rule by default, so make sure to turn it off unless you want it for some reason.

You mean some reason like wanting Transmute and P.Stone not to be dead on every board? Or some reason like being able to buy an Apothecary instead of nothing when you miss your turn 3 Familiar by $1?

I don't think you commonly want to use Philosopher's Stone together with Scrying Pool, Alchemist or Apothecary. There are cards that make PS worthwile, but most of the other Potion costs are really not those. University, maybe, but only if you don't use it to gain drawers. Possession is not really a card to count on and comes at a point where you allready should have decent PSs, Familiar's only interaction is that the Curses you gain can push your Stones (but here we are talking opposing strategies), and Golem will skip PS alltogether. The only Alchemy card that really and strongly benefits PS is Herbalist, and that one doesn't cost a Potion.
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jsh357

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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2015, 05:53:16 pm »
+1

a variant of Dominion where 2 expansions are used at once

Not a variant.

Semantics, but it still means he's not experiencing the game the same way almost every other person on the forum does, which means he has a different perspective on this particular issue from wanting to play with lots of Potion cards at once frequently.  It has not been my experience at all that Dominion is improved by forcing this rule (which doesn't even have the creator's backing).  Transmute is the only card I think actually benefits from it in a substantial way, and that's only in the presence of Familiar or University generally.  P Stone is a weak card regardless of how many Potion cards are on the board, and has more combos outside of Alchemy than in it.  Like I said, I can see the argument for Familiar boards, but just because you can make that quirk of Familiar less annoying doesn't mean it's worth doing.  Most of us just like to pick 10 and go. 

In full random, the metagame most people play, it's a lot more interesting to just keep it fully random, and forcing this rule lessens the amount of possible card interaction you'll see in a game, which goes against what I'm personally interested in seeing.  Besides, some games have multiple Alchemy cards anyway, so those types of games get a shot in the end.  In any case, this is a dumb argument that isn't going to make anyone switch sides, and the option is there to play whatever selection variant you want so everyone should just be happy.
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Voltaire

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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2015, 05:57:17 pm »
+9

I see and agree with your larger point, I just want to fight against the idea that anything other than full random is somehow not Dominion. How you select your kingdom cards will clearly color how you feel about cards, but one way is not superior (in a rules sense, which the term "variant" conveys to me) to another.
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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2015, 10:33:31 pm »
+1

It's pretty hard to shuffle a deck with 256 cards in it even when you're looking at it.
It's a problem I never expected to produce.
Eh...it's an even power of 2. There are plenty of sorting and shuffling algorithms that appreciate that, so I would claim this as a feature and not a problem.

The fact that there are 2^8 of these also gives you a nice compact way to express Kingdoms as strings of 10 extended ASCII characters...although some of those kingdoms would print out kind of funny these days. I personally haven't seen a bonafide vertical tab (^k in control character notation or \v in escape notation) in years.
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Re: Events will have normal (non-randomizer) card backs due to missprint
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2015, 01:29:33 am »
+1

It's pretty hard to shuffle a deck with 256 cards in it even when you're looking at it.
It's a problem I never expected to produce.
Eh...it's an even power of 2. There are plenty of sorting and shuffling algorithms that appreciate that, so I would claim this as a feature and not a problem.

The fact that there are 2^8 of these also gives you a nice compact way to express Kingdoms as strings of 10 extended ASCII characters...although some of those kingdoms would print out kind of funny these days. I personally haven't seen a bonafide vertical tab (^k in control character notation or \v in escape notation) in years.

Or just five Unicode characters!  Those would print out really funny though.
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