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[Watno]

I haven't seen this mentioned here so far
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/18862842#18862842

Do to a misunderstanding (mine), the Events cards will not have blue backs, but will have the tan backs of normal Kingdom cards. Given how these are used in the game, I do not feel this will be a problem for players, even if they shuffle them in with the randomizers as "knowing" the next card up gives no one any advantage. I did explore the possibility of delaying the release to change them to blue, but I feel that the delay from the promised release was not worth making the change. Sorry for the confusion this causes. And, we are still on track to have the game released on April 18th (although as I now see that is a Saturday, many stores may not have it until the 20th).
Thanks

Jay

[jsh357]

It's unfortunate, but not earth-shattering.  You just have to not look at the backs while randomizing.

[Awaclus]

It's unfortunate, but not earth-shattering.  You just have to not look at the backs while randomizing.

Should I look at the fronts then?

[markusin]

If you happen to have 20 blue back proxies you can use, you can keep the events in a separate pile that is only drawn from if one of the proxies was drawn from the randomizer deck. Do the blank cards have blue backs? I can't remember

[Beyond Awesome]

I actually like that the first printing will have the regular backs.

[GendoIkari]

I actually like that the first printing will have the regular backs.

It won't just be the first printing; they'll keep it this way.

Anyway, I don't see a problem with this. I suppose while shuffling there could be a minor annoyance with being able to see the color of the card on top, so you would be able to keep shuffling until either an event or a non-event is on top. But not something worth complaining about.

[Beyond Awesome]

I actually like that the first printing will have the regular backs.

It won't just be the first printing; they'll keep it this way.

Anyway, I don't see a problem with this. I suppose while shuffling there could be a minor annoyance with being able to see the color of the card on top, so you would be able to keep shuffling until either an event or a non-event is on top. But not something worth complaining about.

This could also be a bonus though for shuffling. Maybe you want to play with events, so if none turn up in the first ten cards you keep revealing until the other back comes up. Or, if you reach the 2 Event limit and see another regular back, you just skip it.

[Deadlock39]

If you happen to have 20 blue back proxies you can use, you can keep the events in a separate pile that is only drawn from if one of the proxies was drawn from the randomizer deck. Do the blank cards have blue backs? I can't remember

There are some blank cards with blue backs, but I'm not sure if there are 20.

[GendoIkari]

If you happen to have 20 blue back proxies you can use, you can keep the events in a separate pile that is only drawn from if one of the proxies was drawn from the randomizer deck. Do the blank cards have blue backs? I can't remember

There are some blank cards with blue backs, but I'm not sure if there are 20.

In addition to the blanks, there's the 7 base-card blue-backs from the original set. But still not 20.

[managore]

Here's a way to ensure they get the same play as all the other cards, accounting for the fact that you'll never have more than two in play in any one game.

If you have every expansion and promo there are ~236 kingdom cards. So you could make a deck of 24 coppers and 2 estates, shuffle, and draw 10 cards. For every estate you drew, add in one event card at random.

[Chris is me]

Here's a way to ensure they get the same play as all the other cards, accounting for the fact that you'll never have more than two in play in any one game.

If you have every expansion and promo there are ~236 kingdom cards. So you could make a deck of 24 coppers and 2 estates, shuffle, and draw 10 cards. For every estate you drew, add in one event card at random.

You get 10 Kingdom cards AND however many event cards that you drew. You're not strictly limited to 2 Events and they don't count as a Kingdom card in the sense that they take away a pile.

That said, I don't think its a problem that these cards don't have blue backs. Just don't look at the top of the randomizer deck when doing your final shuffles, then deal them out in order. It's not hard to shuffle without looking at the card piles, honestly. Or if you absolutely have to look the whole time, then cut the deck right before you deal and stick with whatever cut you make.

Optionally, use a software randomizer like I assume everyone does. I guess those will have to be rewritten now to account for events.

[TheOthin]

For IRL play, I usually fan out the shuffled deck and let people pick from them, so that's one scenario where the difference would matter. But then, we also keep the sets' randomizers separate and pick, say, 3 Seaside cards, etc., and if we're using Prosperity cards we just include Colony/Platinum, so we'd probably just say, okay we're playing with Adventures cards so let's pick two Events.

[Awaclus]

That said, I don't think its a problem that these cards don't have blue backs. Just don't look at the top of the randomizer deck when doing your final shuffles, then deal them out in order. It's not hard to shuffle without looking at the card piles, honestly. Or if you absolutely have to look the whole time, then cut the deck right before you deal and stick with whatever cut you make.

It's pretty hard to shuffle a deck with 256 cards in it even when you're looking at it.

[werothegreat]

Well, if you go with "shuffle everything and see if any events come out", if you're using all 256 cards, you're going to average ~1 Event per game.

[Chris is me]

That said, I don't think its a problem that these cards don't have blue backs. Just don't look at the top of the randomizer deck when doing your final shuffles, then deal them out in order. It's not hard to shuffle without looking at the card piles, honestly. Or if you absolutely have to look the whole time, then cut the deck right before you deal and stick with whatever cut you make.

It's pretty hard to shuffle a deck with 256 cards in it even when you're looking at it.

In the extremely rare occasion that I'm going to use the full Randomizer deck to pick my Kingdom, I split the deck into multiple parts and/or use one of those card shuffling machines old people / Vegas casinos use. These can handle a LOT of cards and thoroughly mix them well. I don't mind dinging up randomizer cards.

[Donald X.]

It's pretty hard to shuffle a deck with 256 cards in it even when you're looking at it.

It's a problem I never expected to produce.

[Donald X.]

It won't just be the first printing; they'll keep it this way.

Confirmed. There were so many copies of the first printing printed that a change wouldn't come up for a few years anyway, and Jay is not a fan of people demanding fixed versions of things.

It's sad to have something not quite perfect but at the same time the only way it matters is that it's not quite perfect. People with opaque sleeves, people who separate out the Events to always have some, and people who use apps are utterly unaffected. People who use regular cards for randomizers (saves on lugging around some cards) can be ever-so-mildly pleased. And the people with regular randomizer decks, you know if the top is an Event and well it was up to you how to pick the cards anyway. You can commit to stopping after a cut if you want to not influence the randomness with your personal tastes.

[sudgy]

That said, I don't think its a problem that these cards don't have blue backs. Just don't look at the top of the randomizer deck when doing your final shuffles, then deal them out in order. It's not hard to shuffle without looking at the card piles, honestly. Or if you absolutely have to look the whole time, then cut the deck right before you deal and stick with whatever cut you make.

It's pretty hard to shuffle a deck with 256 cards in it even when you're looking at it.

I've been able to shuffle the 206 cards (barely), but now I don't know if I can do 256...

[Gherald]

[Arctic Penguin]

If you ever play with designed kingdoms or use an app then it will be a lot easier to find a specific Event out of a separate 20 card pile than in a massive 256 card randomizer pile. Even though I sometimes use the physical randomizer deck, I was already a bit hesitant to mix in the Events.

[jamfamsam]

I struggled to shuffle 206 cards so I bought a 6 deck card shuffler.

I am extremely glad they didn't hold up the release of the game to fix the problem with the backs of the events.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Card sleeves also make this a non-issue.

[Asper]

I wonder whether they'll fix it for the german release. September is a long time away.

[Emeric]

It won't just be the first printing; they'll keep it this way.

Confirmed. There were so many copies of the first printing printed that a change wouldn't come up for a few years anyway, and Jay is not a fan of people demanding fixed versions of things.

It's sad to have something not quite perfect but at the same time the only way it matters is that it's not quite perfect. People with opaque sleeves, people who separate out the Events to always have some, and people who use apps are utterly unaffected. People who use regular cards for randomizers (saves on lugging around some cards) can be ever-so-mildly pleased. And the people with regular randomizer decks, you know if the top is an Event and well it was up to you how to pick the cards anyway. You can commit to stopping after a cut if you want to not influence the randomness with your personal tastes.

I hope foreign language editor (French for my part) will take care of this to have a "perfect" game

[Kirian]

Doesn't everyone just use an app to randomize anyway?  Even shuffling 100 cards back when there were only 3 expansions was a chore and a half.

[Witherweaver]

Doesn't everyone just use an app to randomize anyway?  Even shuffling 100 cards back when there were only 3 expansions was a chore and a half.

Yeah, they're, like, convenient, fast, and super easy to use.

[Sidsel]

Doesn't everyone just use an app to randomize anyway?  Even shuffling 100 cards back when there were only 3 expansions was a chore and a half.

Yeah, they're, like, convenient, fast, and super easy to use.

Yep...

and then Black Market turns up and I have to shuffle anyway. :/

[Witherweaver]

Doesn't everyone just use an app to randomize anyway?  Even shuffling 100 cards back when there were only 3 expansions was a chore and a half.

Yeah, they're, like, convenient, fast, and super easy to use.

Yep...

and then Black Market turns up and I have to shuffle anyway. :/

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=12942.msg480419#msg480419

[Asper]

We have a certain system where poeple take turns revealing cards, and may decide whether the card they revealed goes in. This way you have some effect on the game, though your effect gets smaller the more you veto. You can't really do that with different backs.

It's a perfectly understandable decision to not push the expansion back for this. I find it disapppointing that fixing a missprint in later releases seems to generally be out of the question, though.

[Voltaire]

Doesn't everyone just use an app to randomize anyway?  Even shuffling 100 cards back when there were only 3 expansions was a chore and a half.

Yeah, they're, like, convenient, fast, and super easy to use.

And require owning a smartphone.

[GendoIkari]

Doesn't everyone just use an app to randomize anyway?  Even shuffling 100 cards back when there were only 3 expansions was a chore and a half.

Yeah, they're, like, convenient, fast, and super easy to use.

And require owning a smartphone.

Not really; there are multiple websites that do the same thing; which only require owning a computer with internet.

[Voltaire]

Doesn't everyone just use an app to randomize anyway?  Even shuffling 100 cards back when there were only 3 expansions was a chore and a half.

Yeah, they're, like, convenient, fast, and super easy to use.

And require owning a smartphone.

Not really; there are multiple websites that do the same thing; which only require owning a computer with internet.

And I do enjoy lugging my desktop around with me to game nights!

[GendoIkari]

Doesn't everyone just use an app to randomize anyway?  Even shuffling 100 cards back when there were only 3 expansions was a chore and a half.

Yeah, they're, like, convenient, fast, and super easy to use.

And require owning a smartphone.

Not really; there are multiple websites that do the same thing; which only require owning a computer with internet.

And I do enjoy lugging my desktop around with me to game nights!

I would think that at least 1 of the following things would be true a vast majority of the time:

1. The game night is at a location where there is a computer, like someone's house.
2. At least 1 person at the game night has a smart phone.

[Orange]

Which app do most people use?  I have one I like but it doesn't have Prince.

[werothegreat]

Which app do most people use?  I have one I like but it doesn't have Prince.

dougz actually made one.

[mith]

I get the following probabilities for number of events drawn using all kingdom cards (236 kingdom, 20 events, draw until you have 10 kingdom).

0: 43.66%
1: 35.50%
2: 15.14% (2+: 20.84%)
3: 4.47%
4: 1.02%
5: 0.19%
6+: 0.03%

If you want to limit the number of events to 2, you can approximate these probabilities quite well by rolling d6+d8:

2-7: 21/48 = 43.75% (0 events)
8-10: 17/48 = 35.42% (1 event)
11-14: 10/48 = 20.83% (2 events)

[Gherald]

Which app do most people use?  I have one I like but it doesn't have Prince.

Determine one card everyone hates or think is pointless.  Have that card represent Prince in the randomizer. Problem solved.

[jsh357]

Dominion Shuffle on Android has Prince.

I still had to abandon it to playtest cards (fwp) so what I did was make this spreadsheet I can't link you because it has spoilers on it and holy cow I almost did without thinking.  First row is the name of a card or whatever.  Put =rand() in the last column on every line and sort by that column.  Sadly, the Android spreadsheets app is bad about letting you use normal spreadsheet functions so I have to do the sorting on my PC. 

Picking Shelters and Colonies is trickier for me.  What I do for Shelters is look at the kingdom and make a judgment call, like is this more interesting with Necropolis or do I need the Estates?  With Colonies, I roll a random number out of 10.  1 for Colonies, and add 2 to that number for each Prosperity card.  Kinda sucks but it's one way to go.

[Arctic Penguin]

There's a relatively new Android app, Jack of All Dominion, that I think looks very nice. It's the only app I've found that includes all of the card text (not the art), which can come in handy when you're playing with people who haven't memorized all the cards and the Kingdom is facing away from them. It has a nifty little VP counter if you can't live without one of those. It has all the published recommended Kingdoms. It has all the Promos and even already includes 13 of the previewed Adventures cards.

[werothegreat]

There's a relatively new Android app, Jack of All Dominion, that I think looks very nice. It's the only app I've found that includes all of the card text (not the art), which can come in handy when you're playing with people who haven't memorized all the cards and the Kingdom is facing away from them. It has a nifty little VP counter if you can't live without one of those. It has all the published recommended Kingdoms. It has all the Promos and even already includes 13 of the previewed Adventures cards.

I like it.  The interface is clean and uncluttered, and it's very intuitive.

[jsh357]

There's a relatively new Android app, Jack of All Dominion, that I think looks very nice. It's the only app I've found that includes all of the card text (not the art), which can come in handy when you're playing with people who haven't memorized all the cards and the Kingdom is facing away from them. It has a nifty little VP counter if you can't live without one of those. It has all the published recommended Kingdoms. It has all the Promos and even already includes 13 of the previewed Adventures cards.

I like it.  The interface is clean and uncluttered, and it's very intuitive.

Just tested it myself.  Looks pretty nice overall, but it has that silly 3-5 Alchemy cards rule by default, so make sure to turn it off unless you want it for some reason.  I will probably use this instead of Dominion Shuffle from now on.

I wish you could generate kingdoms with fewer cards with one of these things; it's nice for playtesting.

[LastFootnote]

Looks pretty nice overall, but it has that silly 3-5 Alchemy cards rule by default, so make sure to turn it off unless you want it for some reason.

You mean some reason like wanting Transmute and P.Stone not to be dead on every board? Or some reason like being able to buy an Apothecary instead of nothing when you miss your turn 3 Familiar by $1?

[amalloy]

Doesn't everyone just use an app to randomize anyway?  Even shuffling 100 cards back when there were only 3 expansions was a chore and a half.

The guy I know who has all the cards just carries them in one case, not sorted in any particular order, so that you can just grab 10 from wherever and end up with a perfectly fine kingdom. Even easier than using an app (as I used to do). Not as truly random, of course, since I imagine the cards near the front and back of each row get used less, but good enough.

[jsh357]

Looks pretty nice overall, but it has that silly 3-5 Alchemy cards rule by default, so make sure to turn it off unless you want it for some reason.

You mean some reason like wanting Transmute and P.Stone not to be dead on every board? Or some reason like being able to buy an Apothecary instead of nothing when you miss your turn 3 Familiar by $1?

I'm not going to argue too hard about this with you since you play a variant of Dominion where 2 expansions are used at once, but Transmute and P. Stone being exceptions to a rule proves nothing.  The Familiar thing sucks, but it's not like the first shuffle doesn't already have problems. (like getting 4/4 on a Silver/Silver opening when you need 5s)  I prefer the increased variety in possible kingdoms.

[Voltaire]

a variant of Dominion where 2 expansions are used at once

Not a variant.

[Asper]

Looks pretty nice overall, but it has that silly 3-5 Alchemy cards rule by default, so make sure to turn it off unless you want it for some reason.

You mean some reason like wanting Transmute and P.Stone not to be dead on every board? Or some reason like being able to buy an Apothecary instead of nothing when you miss your turn 3 Familiar by $1?

I don't think you commonly want to use Philosopher's Stone together with Scrying Pool, Alchemist or Apothecary. There are cards that make PS worthwile, but most of the other Potion costs are really not those. University, maybe, but only if you don't use it to gain drawers. Possession is not really a card to count on and comes at a point where you allready should have decent PSs, Familiar's only interaction is that the Curses you gain can push your Stones (but here we are talking opposing strategies), and Golem will skip PS alltogether. The only Alchemy card that really and strongly benefits PS is Herbalist, and that one doesn't cost a Potion.

[jsh357]

a variant of Dominion where 2 expansions are used at once

Not a variant.

Semantics, but it still means he's not experiencing the game the same way almost every other person on the forum does, which means he has a different perspective on this particular issue from wanting to play with lots of Potion cards at once frequently.  It has not been my experience at all that Dominion is improved by forcing this rule (which doesn't even have the creator's backing).  Transmute is the only card I think actually benefits from it in a substantial way, and that's only in the presence of Familiar or University generally.  P Stone is a weak card regardless of how many Potion cards are on the board, and has more combos outside of Alchemy than in it.  Like I said, I can see the argument for Familiar boards, but just because you can make that quirk of Familiar less annoying doesn't mean it's worth doing.  Most of us just like to pick 10 and go. 

In full random, the metagame most people play, it's a lot more interesting to just keep it fully random, and forcing this rule lessens the amount of possible card interaction you'll see in a game, which goes against what I'm personally interested in seeing.  Besides, some games have multiple Alchemy cards anyway, so those types of games get a shot in the end.  In any case, this is a dumb argument that isn't going to make anyone switch sides, and the option is there to play whatever selection variant you want so everyone should just be happy.

[Voltaire]

I see and agree with your larger point, I just want to fight against the idea that anything other than full random is somehow not Dominion. How you select your kingdom cards will clearly color how you feel about cards, but one way is not superior (in a rules sense, which the term "variant" conveys to me) to another.

[Throwaway_bicycling]

It's pretty hard to shuffle a deck with 256 cards in it even when you're looking at it.

It's a problem I never expected to produce.

Eh...it's an even power of 2. There are plenty of sorting and shuffling algorithms that appreciate that, so I would claim this as a feature and not a problem.

The fact that there are 2^8 of these also gives you a nice compact way to express Kingdoms as strings of 10 extended ASCII characters...although some of those kingdoms would print out kind of funny these days. I personally haven't seen a bonafide vertical tab (^k in control character notation or \v in escape notation) in years.

[Kirian]

It's pretty hard to shuffle a deck with 256 cards in it even when you're looking at it.

It's a problem I never expected to produce.

Eh...it's an even power of 2. There are plenty of sorting and shuffling algorithms that appreciate that, so I would claim this as a feature and not a problem.

The fact that there are 2^8 of these also gives you a nice compact way to express Kingdoms as strings of 10 extended ASCII characters...although some of those kingdoms would print out kind of funny these days. I personally haven't seen a bonafide vertical tab (^k in control character notation or \v in escape notation) in years.

Or just five Unicode characters!  Those would print out really funny though.

[Rubby]

IMO it would be far from perfect even if they had the randomizer backs. People who keep a randomizer deck would want an additional, non-randomizer copy of each Event so that if they occasionally use an app or just decide they want to play a game with Inheritance or something, they wouldn't have to fish stuff out of there.

[blueblimp]

Which app do most people use?  I have one I like but it doesn't have Prince.

The one I've used is D-Vault (for iOS). It doesn't seem to have Prince either though.

[Orange]

There's a relatively new Android app, Jack of All Dominion, that I think looks very nice. It's the only app I've found that includes all of the card text (not the art), which can come in handy when you're playing with people who haven't memorized all the cards and the Kingdom is facing away from them. It has a nifty little VP counter if you can't live without one of those. It has all the published recommended Kingdoms. It has all the Promos and even already includes 13 of the previewed Adventures cards.

Glad I asked.  Jack of All Dominion is cool.

[Deadlock39]

This was discussed forever ago in this thread, but I have been sleeving my cards, and I come up with 12 extra cards with blue backs if you own everything.  I have 3 blanks with blue backs, 7 base cards from the original sets, and 2 Trash cards (Base cards Trash is grey). 

There are obviously much better solutions, so it doesn't matter.  If you absolutely need 20 proxy blue backed cards, and have those 12, you only need 8 sets of blanks from the BGG store to complete your set.

[Throwaway_bicycling]

If you want to limit the number of events to 2, you can approximate these probabilities quite well by rolling d6+d8:

2-7: 21/48 = 43.75% (0 events)
8-10: 17/48 = 35.42% (1 event)
11-14: 10/48 = 20.83% (2 events)

So I don't usually have dice in my Dominion stuff, but I do have starter hands of 10 cards. I can approximate these probabilities by taking a hand of 10 cards, putting 3 copper aside, shuffling, then:

1) If top card is an Estate, (probability 3/7 = 9/21) no events
2) If top card is a Copper, keep that card on the table, put the other three coppers back, shuffle, then
3) If top card is now an Estate (probabilty 4/21), two events
4) Otherwise, one event

P(0 events) = 9/21 = .43
P(1 events) = 8/21 = .38
P(2 events) = 4/21 = .19

...but I would honestly probably just flip a coin, and put one event in on heads. :-)

[pacovf]

Oh, I like convoluted probability approximations too!

Toss a coin 4 times. If you get two or four tails, don't use events.
Otherwise, toss the coin 4 more times. If you get a total of up to three tails or exactly five tails, use one event.
Otherwise, use 2 events.

 

[mith]

If you want to limit the number of events to 2, you can approximate these probabilities quite well by rolling d6+d8:

2-7: 21/48 = 43.75% (0 events)
8-10: 17/48 = 35.42% (1 event)
11-14: 10/48 = 20.83% (2 events)

So I don't usually have dice in my Dominion stuff, but I do have starter hands of 10 cards. I can approximate these probabilities by taking a hand of 10 cards, putting 3 copper aside, shuffling, then:

1) If top card is an Estate, (probability 3/7 = 9/21) no events
2) If top card is a Copper, keep that card on the table, put the other three coppers back, shuffle, then
3) If top card is now an Estate (probabilty 4/21), two events
4) Otherwise, one event

P(0 events) = 9/21 = .43
P(1 events) = 8/21 = .38
P(2 events) = 4/21 = .19

...but I would honestly probably just flip a coin, and put one event in on heads. :-)

I like it... Only adding two coppers would actually be closer (5/14 is about 36%, 3/14 is about 21%).

[Throwaway_bicycling]

If you want to limit the number of events to 2, you can approximate these probabilities quite well by rolling d6+d8:

2-7: 21/48 = 43.75% (0 events)
8-10: 17/48 = 35.42% (1 event)
11-14: 10/48 = 20.83% (2 events)

So I don't usually have dice in my Dominion stuff, but I do have starter hands of 10 cards. I can approximate these probabilities by taking a hand of 10 cards, putting 3 copper aside, shuffling, then:

1) If top card is an Estate, (probability 3/7 = 9/21) no events
2) If top card is a Copper, keep that card on the table, put the other three coppers back, shuffle, then
3) If top card is now an Estate (probabilty 4/21), two events
4) Otherwise, one event

P(0 events) = 9/21 = .43
P(1 events) = 8/21 = .38
P(2 events) = 4/21 = .19

...but I would honestly probably just flip a coin, and put one event in on heads. :-)

I like it... Only adding two coppers would actually be closer (5/14 is about 36%, 3/14 is about 21%).

Excellent point. I can authoritatively state that would definitely be close enough for government work.

[Kirian]

If you want to limit the number of events to 2, you can approximate these probabilities quite well by rolling d6+d8:

2-7: 21/48 = 43.75% (0 events)
8-10: 17/48 = 35.42% (1 event)
11-14: 10/48 = 20.83% (2 events)

So I don't usually have dice in my Dominion stuff, but I do have starter hands of 10 cards. I can approximate these probabilities by taking a hand of 10 cards, putting 3 copper aside, shuffling, then:

1) If top card is an Estate, (probability 3/7 = 9/21) no events
2) If top card is a Copper, keep that card on the table, put the other three coppers back, shuffle, then
3) If top card is now an Estate (probabilty 4/21), two events
4) Otherwise, one event

P(0 events) = 9/21 = .43
P(1 events) = 8/21 = .38
P(2 events) = 4/21 = .19

...but I would honestly probably just flip a coin, and put one event in on heads. :-)

I like it... Only adding two coppers would actually be closer (5/14 is about 36%, 3/14 is about 21%).

For even more precision, use 236 Coppers and 20 Estates, then reveal cards from the top until you have 10 Coppers or 2 Estates, whichever comes first.  Put in events equal to the number of Estates revealed.

[enfynet]

If you want to limit the number of events to 2, you can approximate these probabilities quite well by rolling d6+d8:

2-7: 21/48 = 43.75% (0 events)
8-10: 17/48 = 35.42% (1 event)
11-14: 10/48 = 20.83% (2 events)

So I don't usually have dice in my Dominion stuff, but I do have starter hands of 10 cards. I can approximate these probabilities by taking a hand of 10 cards, putting 3 copper aside, shuffling, then:

1) If top card is an Estate, (probability 3/7 = 9/21) no events
2) If top card is a Copper, keep that card on the table, put the other three coppers back, shuffle, then
3) If top card is now an Estate (probabilty 4/21), two events
4) Otherwise, one event

P(0 events) = 9/21 = .43
P(1 events) = 8/21 = .38
P(2 events) = 4/21 = .19

...but I would honestly probably just flip a coin, and put one event in on heads. :-)

I like it... Only adding two coppers would actually be closer (5/14 is about 36%, 3/14 is about 21%).

For even more precision, use 236 Coppers and 20 Estates, then reveal cards from the top until you have 10 Coppers or 2 Estates, whichever comes first.  Put in events equal to the number of Estates revealed.

You could also use 118 Coppers, 5 Estates, and 5 Curses. Draw until you have 5 Coppers or 1 Estate or 1 Curse. If you draw a curse, use 2 Events. If you draw an Estate use 1. Otherwise use none.

[shmeur]

Or, you know, you could simply just go to https://www.random.org/ and type in 0-2.  Right?

[heron]

Oh, I like convoluted probability approximations too!

Toss a coin 4 times. If you get two or four tails, don't use events.
Otherwise, toss the coin 4 more times. If you get a total of up to three tails or exactly five tails, use one event.
Otherwise, use 2 events.

 

I prefer convoluted non-approximations. Say we want a random event with a success chance of p. Then, flip a coin a bunch of times and write down a 1 for each head and a 0 for each tail. Add a decimal point in front of you list to make a binary number x. If x < p, success. If x > p, failure. If you aren't sure how x compares to p, flip the coin a few more times.

There, now you can use a coin to create events with any probability of occurring!

[mith]

If you want to limit the number of events to 2, you can approximate these probabilities quite well by rolling d6+d8:

2-7: 21/48 = 43.75% (0 events)
8-10: 17/48 = 35.42% (1 event)
11-14: 10/48 = 20.83% (2 events)

So I don't usually have dice in my Dominion stuff, but I do have starter hands of 10 cards. I can approximate these probabilities by taking a hand of 10 cards, putting 3 copper aside, shuffling, then:

1) If top card is an Estate, (probability 3/7 = 9/21) no events
2) If top card is a Copper, keep that card on the table, put the other three coppers back, shuffle, then
3) If top card is now an Estate (probabilty 4/21), two events
4) Otherwise, one event

P(0 events) = 9/21 = .43
P(1 events) = 8/21 = .38
P(2 events) = 4/21 = .19

...but I would honestly probably just flip a coin, and put one event in on heads. :-)

I like it... Only adding two coppers would actually be closer (5/14 is about 36%, 3/14 is about 21%).

For even more precision, use 236 Coppers and 20 Estates, then reveal cards from the top until you have 10 Coppers or 2 Estates, whichever comes first.  Put in events equal to the number of Estates revealed.

I'm sure someone with more meme-ing skills can come up with something for buying 4 extra copies of the base cards to make this happen...

(And also a Bad Luck Brian, trapped in an infinite coin flipping hell because he keeps hitting the probability boundary.)

[Witherweaver]

Consult your horoscope for that day.  If it is:

*Positive or uplifting, use 0 events
*Cautionary, use 1 event
*Hedging, use 2 events

[Deadlock39]

With 60 Coppers, 40 Silvers and 30 Golds, you could do it with just two of three Base Set/Intrigue/Base Cards.

If you have all 3 you can use two for your event selection and not have to separate all your treasures back out before you play.  Perfect!

[mith]

I came up with another scheme the other night which only requires a starting hand and any other card:

Take 3 Estates, 4 Coppers, and 1 Harem (or whatever, but treat this card as if it were a treasure-victory card). Draw two at random.

If you draw 1 Copper and 1 Estate, use 0 events (24/56 = 3/7).
If you draw 2 Treasure, use 1 event (20/56 = 5/14).
If you draw 2 Victory, use 2 events (12/56 = 3/14).

Or change it to 1 Scheme (or any non-victory action card): If you don't draw Victory use 1 event, if you don't draw Treasure use 2 events.

[LastFootnote]

In my real-life games for the foreseeable future, I will be using 2 Events for every game with expert players and 0 Events for introducing novice players.

[mith]

Yeah, I expect most of us will be totally ignoring the random method for a bit.

But if you want the exact probability distribution of the recommended method without the hassle of having to draw more than one card, you'll need 239607404704698 Overgrown Estates, 194802768052600 Estates, and 114398846157902 Islands... (Warning: a randomizer deck this size may reach the Sun.)

[Witherweaver]

Yeah, I expect most of us will be totally ignoring the random method for a bit.

But if you want the exact probability distribution of the recommended method without the hassle of having to draw more than one card, you'll need 239607404704698 Overgrown Estates, 194802768052600 Estates, and 114398846157902 Islands... (Warning: a randomizer deck this size may reach the Sun.)

However, these are too many calls to shuffle and draw a card from.  So you need to replicate this distribution somehow....

[jdgordon]

The probabilities are slightly more than just doing random, but what I was going to do if events were blue backed was keep them seperate and grab 10 spare brownbacks in with the events, draw 0 on 4, 1 on 3, 2 on 2 and 3 on 1. shuffle those 10 cards to determine how many evenmt cards to throw in.

Having them bluebacked always seemed wierd to me so I'm glad the mistake happened

[mith]

When we know the costs of all the event cards, we can come up with a scheme which involves drawing event cards to determine how many to use...

[Throwaway_bicycling]

If you want to limit the number of events to 2, you can approximate these probabilities quite well by rolling d6+d8:

2-7: 21/48 = 43.75% (0 events)
8-10: 17/48 = 35.42% (1 event)
11-14: 10/48 = 20.83% (2 events)

So I don't usually have dice in my Dominion stuff, but I do have starter hands of 10 cards. I can approximate these probabilities by taking a hand of 10 cards, putting 3 copper aside, shuffling, then:

1) If top card is an Estate, (probability 3/7 = 9/21) no events
2) If top card is a Copper, keep that card on the table, put the other three coppers back, shuffle, then
3) If top card is now an Estate (probabilty 4/21), two events
4) Otherwise, one event

P(0 events) = 9/21 = .43
P(1 events) = 8/21 = .38
P(2 events) = 4/21 = .19

...but I would honestly probably just flip a coin, and put one event in on heads. :-)

I like it... Only adding two coppers would actually be closer (5/14 is about 36%, 3/14 is about 21%).

For even more precision, use 236 Coppers and 20 Estates, then reveal cards from the top until you have 10 Coppers or 2 Estates, whichever comes first.  Put in events equal to the number of Estates revealed.

So I have to admit: I'm now kind of glad they misprinted the cards. I haven't felt this mocked in weeks. 

[Throwaway_bicycling]

It's pretty hard to shuffle a deck with 256 cards in it even when you're looking at it.

It's a problem I never expected to produce.

Eh...it's an even power of 2. There are plenty of sorting and shuffling algorithms that appreciate that, so I would claim this as a feature and not a problem.

The fact that there are 2^8 of these also gives you a nice compact way to express Kingdoms as strings of 10 extended ASCII characters...although some of those kingdoms would print out kind of funny these days. I personally haven't seen a bonafide vertical tab (^k in control character notation or \v in escape notation) in years.

Or just five Unicode characters!  Those would print out really funny though.

But one of those Unicode kingdoms is almost certainly a Perl program that can print its own source code!

[jdgordon]

It's pretty hard to shuffle a deck with 256 cards in it even when you're looking at it.

It's a problem I never expected to produce.

Eh...it's an even power of 2. There are plenty of sorting and shuffling algorithms that appreciate that, so I would claim this as a feature and not a problem.

The fact that there are 2^8 of these also gives you a nice compact way to express Kingdoms as strings of 10 extended ASCII characters...although some of those kingdoms would print out kind of funny these days. I personally haven't seen a bonafide vertical tab (^k in control character notation or \v in escape notation) in years.

Or just five Unicode characters!  Those would print out really funny though.

But one of those Unicode kingdoms is almost certainly a Perl program that can print its own source code!

ITs really not that difficult... Each card has a unique integer ID so randomly choose your 10(or however many). sort them (so the same cards are always in the same order) and base32/64 encode it.

You'll end up with a kingdomID something like 3245FAB4...
Chuck the algo on github and we can share them stupidly simply (OK OK.. I'll do it tonight if the wiki provides an easy enough way to get an id).


EDIT:

OK, each card is a 16bit value, 6 bits for the card id (card number is defined order (alphabetical for boxes and appearance order for promos) for each box). 4 bits for the box id (base == 0, intrigue 1, etc. for reprints and merged boxes cards would only be in the original appearance box). Then we are left with 6 bits to use as needed. Right now I can only think of using one to mark the BANE card, and one to mark a black market card, unused must be 0. Then you concat each card in the correct order, base32 it and boom, unique kingdom.

What other id markers are needed?

[Beyond Awesome]

Honestly, I feel that 1 year from now that no one will care that events have normal backs vs. randomizer backs.

[Witherweaver]

Honestly, I feel that 1 year from now that no one will care that events have normal backs vs. randomizer backs.

Honestly, I feel that right now, no one cares that events have normal backs vs. randomizer backs.

[enfynet]

Honestly, I feel that 1 year from now that no one will care that events have normal backs vs. randomizer backs.

Honestly, I feel that right now, no one cares that events have normal backs vs. randomizer backs.

I wonder if Goko/Making Fun will get the backs right?

[LastFootnote]

Honestly, I feel that 1 year from now that no one will care that events have normal backs vs. randomizer backs.

Honestly, I feel that right now, no one cares that events have normal backs vs. randomizer backs.

I wonder if Goko/Making Fun will get the backs right?

I assume this is a joke. You would never see the backs of Events unless they introduce some sort of randomizer animation.

[mith]

Honestly, I feel that 1 year from now that no one will care that events have normal backs vs. randomizer backs.

Honestly, I feel that right now, no one cares that events have normal backs vs. randomizer backs.

I wonder if Goko/Making Fun will get the backs right?

I assume this is a joke. You would never see the backs of Events unless they introduce some sort of randomizer animation.

I don't know about anyone else, but a randomizer animation is all that's holding me back from buying all the cards online.

[assemble_me]

Well, that might be an advantage of having to wait until Sept, 1st when the German version ships, hoping Jay and the guys of RGG get it fixed until then.

[Donald X.]

Well, that might be an advantage of having to wait until Sept, 1st when the German version ships, hoping Jay and the guys of RGG get it fixed until then.

Jay and is wife are the entirety of RGG, they are all the guys. There is no plan to ever "fix" this, so the sensible thing is to have the German version match the English one.

[mith]

When we know the costs of all the event cards, we can come up with a scheme which involves drawing event cards to determine how many to use...

Draw three event cards, add the costs:

8-9, 12-14: 498/1140 = 43.68% use 0 events
2-7, 15-21: 405/1140 = 35.53% use 1 event
0-1, 10-11: 237/1140 = 20.79% use 2 events