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[Ichimaru Gin]

But this is the general thing with vigs.  They choose well, its awesome.  They choose poorly, it sucks.

Yeah. faust tried to turn it into some emotional argument about us criticizing Joseph's reads and not "giving him a chance" or whatever, but that's not what it's about. Simply, he was more likely to hit town then scum given random targets. Him having two poisons last night changes the potential drawbacks drastically as well.

I don't really see that (about Faust turning it into an emotional argument).

This is the quote I'm referring to.

I think everyone should be able to see that I'm the voice of reason in this discussion while Ichi and ash do nothing but yell "but I'm right! Joseph is a terrible player and needs to be hanged" all the time, lacking any sort of actual argument.

Seems pretty clear to me.
 
My original response to it is thereabouts as well. I don't recall getting any satisfactory response to the fact that Joseph was more likely to hit town than scum (given random targets).

[Witherweaver]

But that's true of any vig.

[Ichimaru Gin]

But that's true of any vig.

True. Having 2 kills makes it even more dangerous though.

And can you see what I was talking about faust trying to do now? I mean, it was probably a bit sarcastic, but still.

[Witherweaver]

Not really.  I'm not seeing the same thing you are with Faust.  What he's been saying has by and large been making sense to me.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So what, the quote of his I went back and found means nothing?

Honestly, I am starting to doubt my scumread on him a bit. I just want more time to figure stuff out. Skimming a good bit of D2 searching for it made me wish I had the time to go back and have a more thorough look. I'm on spring break after Sunday though.

[ashersky]

Not really.  I'm not seeing the same thing you are with Faust.  What he's been saying has by and large been making sense to me.

Given his post is also about me, I feel compelled to respond.

If you can't see that the Faust quote is emotional warfare, I don't know who you are anymore.

[faust]

Regarding your whole discussion: I thought (and think) Joseph is town, so I don't want to lynch him. Period. Any argument about why lynching town is good is scummy to me, because hey, lynching scum is always better, so let's try and do that. Yes, Joseph has a scary role that can singlehandedly lose us the game. It's not at all clear that he did. chairs and/or e might still be scum. They weren't unreasonable targets.

I guess what also comes into it is, if I leave Joseph alive and he makes bad decisions, well, it's his fault we lost this game, not mine. If I mislynch town and this costs us the game, I'm to blame. That might not be the best reason ever, but I can't deny that it's there.

re: silver lynch. I think I might be okay with it, but really I prefer ash by a wide margin. If things go really bad, we could still lose by lynching town!silver here. But I guess the same is true tomorrow once ash is dead, so there's that. I want to reread and see if silver makes sense as either ash's or Hydrad's partner.

[Joseph2302]

Regarding your whole discussion: I thought (and think) Joseph is town, so I don't want to lynch him. Period. Any argument about why lynching town is good is scummy to me, because hey, lynching scum is always better, so let's try and do that. Yes, Joseph has a scary role that can singlehandedly lose us the game. It's not at all clear that he did. chairs and/or e might still be scum. They weren't unreasonable targets.

I guess what also comes into it is, if I leave Joseph alive and he makes bad decisions, well, it's his fault we lost this game, not mine. If I mislynch town and this costs us the game, I'm to blame. That might not be the best reason ever, but I can't deny that it's there.

re: silver lynch. I think I might be okay with it, but really I prefer ash by a wide margin. If things go really bad, we could still lose by lynching town!silver here. But I guess the same is true tomorrow once ash is dead, so there's that. I want to reread and see if silver makes sense as either ash's or Hydrad's partner.

Totally agree, if town lose because I've made bad decisions, then it's my fault.
I also strongly prefer an ash lynch, since his result on me doesn't make sense. The only explanations are he's scum, or faust and I are both scum (if ash is town, then both faust and I must be lying). As i know I'm town, ash must be scum.

[ashersky]

You know, it is late tonight, for some reason listening to the song Hallelujah from Shrek of all things, thinking about my beautiful family and real life has me thinking I've really got to let go for things that don't really mean anything in life.

So, well, if you mislynch me, I won't carry a grudge or whatever..

Faust, I forgive you for your actions and play, since it's just a game and your are just playing your part as a member of the mafia.

There are more important things in life than mafia games to get worked up over.

I have reread the last few pages, and I guess I'll just point out, what's my motivation as scum to lie or make any of this up?  If I think Joseph is town and killed two players who aren't partners with me, why not just ride it out?  Faust seems to be making sideways arguments about me and my motivations to lie, but they just aren't making any sense to me.

All I can say is that I'm not lying.  Maybe Faust of his teammate manipulated my result?  Or, as I think, Joseph us lying about his role.  Either way, that is what I got.

I'm not going to stress now, though.  I'll forgive and forget.  I'll toast and smile.  Thanks.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I have received an answer to my question about my role. If my protection target only needs 1 attack to be killed and one of my lynch choices does not proc, they will die.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Which is another good reason to lynch faust. I could easily see WW as his partner too. I've felt townier on him lately, but he's shown that he can easily play that angle while his other partner tunnels me.

[faust]

Who are you, and what have you done to ashersky?

[faust]

I have received an answer to my question about my role. If my protection target only needs 1 attack to be killed and one of my lynch choices does not proc, they will die.

No, see, you received an answer to a question you posed to the mod. While ashersky claimed that Arch wouldn't answer such questions. That was a lie, and therefore we need to lynch ash.

I know you want to lynch one of your targets, and I understand. Because not doing so would feel like you failed. But you couldn't know what was going to happen. Your reads here may have been incorrect, but well, I thought ash was town before this day. It's just that your mistake has a bigger impact on the game, which sure sucks, but you don't make it better by clinging to the idea that I'm scum against all odds.

[faust]

And Ichi, since you seem to be around, can you please, PLEASE point out the scum narrative for what I've been doing?

[Joseph2302]

I have reread the last few pages, and I guess I'll just point out, what's my motivation as scum to lie or make any of this up?  If I think Joseph is town and killed two players who aren't partners with me, why not just ride it out?  Faust seems to be making sideways arguments about me and my motivations to lie, but they just aren't making any sense to me.

All I can say is that I'm not lying.  Maybe Faust of his teammate manipulated my result?  Or, as I think, Joseph us lying about his role.  Either way, that is what I got.

This whole day has confused me, because I'm not lying, but confused as to why ash would lie. I've mentioned a few times today that someone could be lying about their role, and manipulated me last night, but I'm not sure who.

[Ichimaru Gin]

And Ichi, since you seem to be around, can you please, PLEASE point out the scum narrative for what I've been doing?

There could be some truth in what you say about me not wanting to be wrong. Still, I will be surprised if you are town here.

I stand by what I said yesterday, that having Joseph kill 2 people was an awful idea. I can kind of understand your statements about shifting responsibility, but man, we could have just had Joseph not use his role, or only kill one person. People can see now that it was a bad idea I think, but I only see scum pushing that narrative so hard yesterday that "I feel like Joseph will hit scum whatever". Having likely 2 more members of town die tonight is awful, yet puts scum in an amazing position!

[faust]

And Ichi, since you seem to be around, can you please, PLEASE point out the scum narrative for what I've been doing?

There could be some truth in what you say about me not wanting to be wrong. Still, I will be surprised if you are town here.

I stand by what I said yesterday, that having Joseph kill 2 people was an awful idea. I can kind of understand your statements about shifting responsibility, but man, we could have just had Joseph not use his role, or only kill one person. People can see now that it was a bad idea I think, but I only see scum pushing that narrative so hard yesterday that "I feel like Joseph will hit scum whatever". Having likely 2 more members of town die tonight is awful, yet puts scum in an amazing position!

I'm talking about my actions today. Why does scum!me contradict ash? Explain.

[Ichimaru Gin]

So we lynch Ash today and then you win.

[faust]

So we lynch Ash today and then you win.

Are you arguing that I am scum, and Joseph and ash and chairs and e are town?

[faust]

If so, how are ash and Joseph town together?

[Ichimaru Gin]

If so, how are ash and Joseph town together?

I don't know. Maybe Ash is your partner, or unknown partner. Maybe scum messed with Ash's role or did something to Joseph that made Ash get the result he did.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I mean, before you guys all claimed, who was it looking like we were going to lynch today. Me? e?
Then Ash claimed and the focus was on Joseph, and then your claim conflicts with Ash's.

What's the scum narrative for Ash to claim a fake result on Joseph when he knew that you were going to check Joseph's role as well? You had a townread on him before that.

[2.71828.....]

I think I know who I want to vote for, but want to hear more from other people before I vote.  Especially silverspawn and awaclus and chairs.

What would you like to hear?

Who is scum.  Specifically between Ash, faust, and Joseph.  Because unless scum did an incredible job diverting actions, at least one of them is scum.

[Joseph2302]

I think I know who I want to vote for, but want to hear more from other people before I vote.  Especially silverspawn and awaclus and chairs.

What would you like to hear?

Who is scum.  Specifically between Ash, faust, and Joseph.  Because unless scum did an incredible job diverting actions, at least one of them is scum.

Assuming no redirection, either: (1). ash or (2). faust and also me.
Because either ash is lying, or I am. But if I'm lying, then so is faust, because faust confirmed my role.

[faust]

If so, how are ash and Joseph town together?

I don't know. Maybe Ash is your partner, or unknown partner. Maybe scum messed with Ash's role or did something to Joseph that made Ash get the result he did.

So you can't provide a scenario in which your vote against me makes sense? I mean, yeah, maybe scum messed with ash's role, but I don't think people lied about their roles. Do you? Who lies?