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[ashersky]

Why are you defending Joseph so heavily?
Why is it a good idea to let him poison more people?

I'm defending Joseph because he's town. At least have the decency to respond to my arguments.

Because you THINK he's town.  You can't know he's town even if you are scum.

[ashersky]

It's a good idea to let him poison more people because town-controlled kills are good.

You think town vigging XP was good?  You think that same vig killing two more players on his own is good?

[Ichimaru Gin]

Oops. Sorry. I only saw the post where you replied to me, not the one you made about Joseph.

Hmm. Those actually seem like some pretty solid points in Joseph's defense, I feel like something is left out though.

PPE: I disagree. Vigs and other viggish roles are an anti-town role in the hands of someone with terrible reads. The odds are doubly not in our favor of Joesph hitting scum here.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I missed some PPE's in there somehow. I was replying to faust's most recent post.

[faust]

It's a good idea to let him poison more people because town-controlled kills are good.

You think town vigging XP was good?  You think that same vig killing two more players on his own is good?

Man. Look. I've screwed up games, you've screwed up games. That doesn't mean that we should never again be trusted to use a PR.

[faust]

Why are you defending Joseph so heavily?
Why is it a good idea to let him poison more people?

I'm defending Joseph because he's town. At least have the decency to respond to my arguments.

Because you THINK he's town.  You can't know he's town even if you are scum.

Unless you can refute my arguments, this is just meanimgless jibber-jabber.

[Ichimaru Gin]

It's a good idea to let him poison more people because town-controlled kills are good.

You think town vigging XP was good?  You think that same vig killing two more players on his own is good?

Man. Look. I've screwed up games, you've screwed up games. That doesn't mean that we should never again be trusted to use a PR.

I don't even know what to call this. It's not convincing though.

[faust]

I think everyone should be able to see that I'm the voice of reason in this discussion while Ichi and ash do nothing but yell "but I'm right! Joseph is a terrible player and needs to be hanged" all the time, lacking any sort of actual argument.

[ashersky]

Why are you defending Joseph so heavily?
Why is it a good idea to let him poison more people?

I'm defending Joseph because he's town. At least have the decency to respond to my arguments.

Because you THINK he's town.  You can't know he's town even if you are scum.

Unless you can refute my arguments, this is just meanimgless jibber-jabber.

That's bullshit.  You cannot prove he is town anymore than I can prove he is scum.  So you cannot say "He's town" with any certainty, unless you are lying about your role and what you did with it last night or you hacked Archetype's Quicktopic account and read the mod QT.

[Ichimaru Gin]

I think everyone should be able to see that I'm the voice of reason in this discussion while Ichi and ash do nothing but yell "but I'm right! Joseph is a terrible player and needs to be hanged" all the time, lacking any sort of actual argument.

This is nothing about Joseph's quality as a player. We have proof that his reads are suspect this game given who he targeted N1. Assuming he poisons people in a completely random fashion, it's more likely to hurt us. So why let him poison 2 more people?
Why are you ignoring probability? You're trying to turn this into some sort of emotional argument about giving people chance's and putting untrue words in our mouths about Joseph.

PPE: 1

[Ichimaru Gin]

And yes. I am aware of the irony of me talking to people about making emotional arguments.

[ashersky]

So let's run this through. What are the scenarios for scum!Joseph?

1. He actually has the role he claims (or some variant thereof)

First let me state that I think this unlikely because giving scum an extra kill is quite impossible to balance. But okay, let's for a moment work under the assumption that this is possible. What does he do last night? He targets Xerxes with it. I mean, it's conceivable that he lied about this, but really why? With roles confirming stuff, this is dangerous. So we'd have to assume he tells the truth about targeting Xerxes. This makes little sense for scum. Scum targets the player they attack? Why? It robs them off a night kill - and it doesn't even look good on them.
This case is hardly possible. Occam's razor tells us to dismiss it.

2. He lied about this role.

Okay. So he might have another role. This is something we can make sure I can uncover tonight, with little possibility of me dying. But I doubt even this is the case. I mean, what sort of super-crappy fakeclaim is this? If he lied, why claim to have targeted Xerxes? He did the night attack, and is afraid of being Tracked/Watched? There's no such role. Why claim something that in order to work needs help of some other player? Maybe to insinuate that someone is lying. But if this is the case, then why do a full turn before it even plays out? Sorry, but I don't really see this either.
Okay, so there's this chance that he has a role Poisoner that does something different. This would be extremely misleading, like close-to-bastard misleading. It's convention here that mafiascum names are mafiascum roles, and breaking that should at least be announced pregame. And Arch knows about Posioning, he used it in RMM11 I think.

So there's no conceivable scenario where Joseph is scum for me. Still, if you want to be really sure, I can check him tonight. But why would we lynch him? Makes zero sense to me.

As for responding to your "arguments" I assume you mean this big pile of misdirection right here.

I've already address #1 -- he has a killing role, it's called MAFIA.

As for #2, is it worth letting scum to live for another day and kill another night just so you can get his role name?  Poisoner is a scum name, after all, and you are playing the "mafiascum names are sacrosanct" card, so Poisoner should be scum (or SK).  But even if this was normal, and you get "Roleblocker" as his name, then woo, you've DONE NOTHING BUT LET HIM KILL PEOPLE and LET SCUM LIVE.

Why would we do that?  Why?  On the off-chance that he is a Poisoner, at which point we still don't know his alignment?

[faust]

Scumhunting is pointless.

Since we've come to this point, I don't see any need for further discussion.

[ashersky]

Scumhunting is pointless.

Since we've come to this point, I don't see any need for further discussion.

Really?  Faking quotes from me?  Fuck this.  I'm done.  Either you get modkilled or I quit.

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: faust. I refuse to believe that town!faust would play this way.

PPE: 1

[faust]

So let's run this through. What are the scenarios for scum!Joseph?

1. He actually has the role he claims (or some variant thereof)

First let me state that I think this unlikely because giving scum an extra kill is quite impossible to balance. But okay, let's for a moment work under the assumption that this is possible. What does he do last night? He targets Xerxes with it. I mean, it's conceivable that he lied about this, but really why? With roles confirming stuff, this is dangerous. So we'd have to assume he tells the truth about targeting Xerxes. This makes little sense for scum. Scum targets the player they attack? Why? It robs them off a night kill - and it doesn't even look good on them.
This case is hardly possible. Occam's razor tells us to dismiss it.

2. He lied about this role.

Okay. So he might have another role. This is something we can make sure I can uncover tonight, with little possibility of me dying. But I doubt even this is the case. I mean, what sort of super-crappy fakeclaim is this? If he lied, why claim to have targeted Xerxes? He did the night attack, and is afraid of being Tracked/Watched? There's no such role. Why claim something that in order to work needs help of some other player? Maybe to insinuate that someone is lying. But if this is the case, then why do a full turn before it even plays out? Sorry, but I don't really see this either.
Okay, so there's this chance that he has a role Poisoner that does something different. This would be extremely misleading, like close-to-bastard misleading. It's convention here that mafiascum names are mafiascum roles, and breaking that should at least be announced pregame. And Arch knows about Posioning, he used it in RMM11 I think.

So there's no conceivable scenario where Joseph is scum for me. Still, if you want to be really sure, I can check him tonight. But why would we lynch him? Makes zero sense to me.

As for responding to your "arguments" I assume you mean this big pile of misdirection right here.

I've already address #1 -- he has a killing role, it's called MAFIA.

As for #2, is it worth letting scum to live for another day and kill another night just so you can get his role name?  Poisoner is a scum name, after all, and you are playing the "mafiascum names are sacrosanct" card, so Poisoner should be scum (or SK).  But even if this was normal, and you get "Roleblocker" as his name, then woo, you've DONE NOTHING BUT LET HIM KILL PEOPLE and LET SCUM LIVE.

Why would we do that?  Why?  On the off-chance that he is a Poisoner, at which point we still don't know his alignment?

I suggest you take a nice calm cup of tea. Maybe roll up your sleeves or eat an orange. When you're done, maybe we can start talking like civilized people without yelling at each other.

[faust]

Scumhunting is pointless.

Since we've come to this point, I don't see any need for further discussion.

Really?  Faking quotes from me?  Fuck this.  I'm done.  Either you get modkilled or I quit.

Look. I'm sorry if I've offended you. I was under the impression that this sort of thing - taking people's quotes and writing in them how they read to you - is a common thing around here, and I've never heard complaints about it. If you don't like it, that's fine, sorry I did that, won't happen again.

[faust]

vote: faust. I refuse to believe that town!faust would play this way.

PPE: 1

Which way exactly?

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: faust. I refuse to believe that town!faust would play this way.

PPE: 1

Which way exactly?

I posted this before what Ash said. I feel like you aren't giving anything we say a fair shot--and then acting like we're saying stuff we aren't actually saying. Letting Joseph kill more people given probability and his claimed target for N1 just seems insane!

I mean, it doesn't bother me that much, it just seems anti-town and more focused on needling people and responding to things indirectly with your own spin on them.

[faust]

vote: faust. I refuse to believe that town!faust would play this way.

PPE: 1

Which way exactly?

I posted this before what Ash said. I feel like you aren't giving anything we say a fair shot--and then acting like we're saying stuff we aren't actually saying. Letting Joseph kill more people given probability and his claimed target for N1 just seems insane!

I mean, it doesn't bother me that much, it just seems anti-town and more focused on needling people and responding to things indirectly with your own spin on them.

So let me get this straight. You say we should lynch a town player because he made a wrong decision? Well, thanks, but I'd prefer to lynch the scum.

[Ichimaru Gin]

vote: faust. I refuse to believe that town!faust would play this way.

PPE: 1

Which way exactly?

I posted this before what Ash said. I feel like you aren't giving anything we say a fair shot--and then acting like we're saying stuff we aren't actually saying. Letting Joseph kill more people given probability and his claimed target for N1 just seems insane!

I mean, it doesn't bother me that much, it just seems anti-town and more focused on needling people and responding to things indirectly with your own spin on them.

So let me get this straight. You say we should lynch a town player because he made a wrong decision? Well, thanks, but I'd prefer to lynch the scum.

Perfect example of what I was talking about. We have other options. We could have Joseph not use his power and have someone check to make sure he doesn't (do we have a role that can do that?). Plus, I don't see much compelling evidence for him being town at this point.

And yeah. It's actually better to lynch town!Joseph then have Joseph kill 2 townies. So actually, yes.

[faust]

Perfect example of what I was talking about. We have other options. We could have Joseph not use his power and have someone check to make sure he doesn't (do we have a role that can do that?). Plus, I don't see much compelling evidence for him being town at this point.

And yeah. It's actually better to lynch town!Joseph then have Joseph kill 2 townies. So actually, yes.

Well, okay. This was never mentioned before. I guess we could do it. But I don't like it, I feel like there's a decent chance for Joseph to hit scum. Acting like it's certain that Joseph will kill townies is ridiculous.

[Ichimaru Gin]

"feeling" like he's going to hit scum means basically nothing. The numbers don't lie.

And plus he claims to have targeted XP N1, which is awful.

[silverspawn]

I think everyone should be able to see that I'm the voice of reason in this discussion while Ichi and ash do nothing but yell "but I'm right! Joseph is a terrible player and needs to be hanged" all the time, lacking any sort of actual argument.

uh, well, yeah. I at least thought you're making perfect sense in this argument.

[2.71828.....]

"feeling" like he's going to hit scum means basically nothing. The numbers don't lie.

And plus he claims to have targeted XP N1, which is awful.

So awful that he must be town