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[xeiron]

I will discuss the details of ashersky's plan later on. For now, I have a plan of my own.

We need to coordinate item sendings to our best interest. This is how I think it can be done:

chairs, our IC, chooses one other player. The rest of the the players are divided into two groups of roughly the same size: A and B. All players in group A send their item to chairs, all players in group B send their items to the player chosen by chairs. At the start of the following day, chairs and the other player can reveal how many items they have received.

Advantages:

- Scum are in a dilemma here. Either, they can obey and send their item away. That will mean that they can't construct stuff. Or they send their items to themselves, but then we will know in which group we have how many mafia, which will lead to deadly POE later on.
- The IC and our top town read get the items, which means they perform our night actions, which means night action results can be trusted.
- From the N1 sendings, the IC knows what kind of item remain to the players who sent an item.

Dangers:

- greatest threat is the Embezzler power scum can get. They could just snap all the items sent to chairs. BUt for that, they need to get 4 magnifying glasses first, so unless scum have all magnifying glasses, it won't happen N1.
- another danger is that we might choose a mafia member as player two. But I think that risk is slim; it's hard to figure out who scum is on D1, but it's way easier to find someone who is town.

I like this plan. At least for D1. Maybe also D2. The Embezzler power might be a too large threat later.
The big risk is of course choosing a mafia-member as player two. But that is a chance I think we should take.

[Witherweaver]

I will discuss the details of ashersky's plan later on. For now, I have a plan of my own.

We need to coordinate item sendings to our best interest. This is how I think it can be done:

chairs, our IC, chooses one other player. The rest of the the players are divided into two groups of roughly the same size: A and B. All players in group A send their item to chairs, all players in group B send their items to the player chosen by chairs. At the start of the following day, chairs and the other player can reveal how many items they have received.

Advantages:

- Scum are in a dilemma here. Either, they can obey and send their item away. That will mean that they can't construct stuff. Or they send their items to themselves, but then we will know in which group we have how many mafia, which will lead to deadly POE later on.
- The IC and our top town read get the items, which means they perform our night actions, which means night action results can be trusted.
- From the N1 sendings, the IC knows what kind of item remain to the players who sent an item.

Dangers:

- greatest threat is the Embezzler power scum can get. They could just snap all the items sent to chairs. BUt for that, they need to get 4 magnifying glasses first, so unless scum have all magnifying glasses, it won't happen N1.
- another danger is that we might choose a mafia member as player two. But I think that risk is slim; it's hard to figure out who scum is on D1, but it's way easier to find someone who is town.

I like this plan. At least for D1. Maybe also D2. The Embezzler power might be a too large threat later.
The big risk is of course choosing a mafia-member as player two. But that is a chance I think we should take.

This is a good point. Embezzling is impossible Night 1.

[xeiron]

So, the mafia have 2 NK mechanisms, right?  There's priming and hoping the detonator guy doesn't die, and then there's the hot potato.

Town controls the Mafia's nightly NK.  We should determine, every day, who will die that night.  Anyone who refuses to be the night kill is scum.

Remember, per the open setup, we're all just VTs with two identical, useless items.  Like, two pieces of paper is crap.  No town member should have objections to dying at night.

Basically, we can all decide/vote on who should be the NK.  If they protest too much, SCUM and we lynch them.  If they don't protest, but DON'T die, SCUM and we lynch them the next day (because that means mafia chose NOT to send the potato out, or that person received the potato and passed it).

Remember, the person holding the potato has the power to hold onto it and die.  We choose who dies, mafia gives them the potato, they die.  We are taking power away from mafia, controlling who we lose each night.  We also force mafia into positions they don't like with the daily NK discussion.

They'll be caught during the day if they fight, caught at night if they don't die.

--CAVEAT:  Mafia can no kill on purpose to frame a towny for not dying.  That's still an awfully slow way to get your NKs through, so I'm not worried about it.

After thinking about it, I think Asherskys original plan to contoll the potato bomb is the best one.
-During the day, we vote for who to be potato killed, as well as who to be lynched.
-During the night, everyone who recieves the the potato bomb should pass it to the player agreed on.
-That player should keep the bomb, and let it exploded.


Mafia can counter this in two ways.
1. Choose not to send out the potato at all. This is fine, as we have one less kill to worry about.
2. If we decide on bombing a mafia player, they can fix it so that another player dies instead.
Examle: Town have decided to bomb player A (who happends to be mafia). Mafia player starts by sending the potato to town player C (A player they would like to kill, like the IC) Player C sends the potato to A, and A sends it back to C. This is not that bad for town, as we now know that Player A is mafia. (Because of this, The IC and others should consider making a Privacy Curtain.)

It is important that the player to be bombed holds on to the bomb, instead of passing it to whoever they think are scum. If they follow that rule, the example above may never happend when A is town.

[pingpongsam]

The big risk is of course choosing a mafia-member as player two. But that is a chance I think we should take.

Mafia agrees strongly...

[mail-mi]

I think that we need to lynch, because more info after d1 the better, and mafia may not send the bomb.

[xeiron]

The big risk is of course choosing a mafia-member as player two. But that is a chance I think we should take.

Mafia agrees strongly...

...Just as mafia strongly agrees on any lynch on a town player.

This is pretty much a reverse lynch. We pick a person we think is town and gives them immortality (It will be hard for scum to kill someone with fireproof and privacy curtain.)
 
In the end, our ability to guess who is mafia, and who is town is what decides if we win or lose games.

[pingpongsam]

This arbitrarily choose another IC strategy should be reserved for later in the game when we have some actual reads to work with. To do it D1 is careless.

[Witherweaver]

This arbitrarily choose another IC strategy should be reserved for later in the game when we have some actual reads to work with. To do it D1 is careless.

But the item-trading strategy (and likely any other) is better earlier than later.

[pingpongsam]

All Mafia has to do is kill the IC and the item trading plan completely fails. It is too fragile.

[xeiron]

All Mafia has to do is kill the IC and the item trading plan completely fails. It is too fragile.

How?

Remember mafia has no standrad NK.

The IC should get enough items to protect himself against both priming and the potato bomb.

[Witherweaver]

All Mafia has to do is kill the IC and the item trading plan completely fails. It is too fragile.

But IC can make things tonight and protect himself.  Unless role blocking.  Or rolestopping .  can't check what makes those right now.

PPE: Xeiron making same point I think.

[xeiron]

This arbitrarily choose another IC strategy should be reserved for later in the game when we have some actual reads to work with. To do it D1 is careless.

It must be D1, because we only want to coordinate item sending before mafia can get the 'Embezzler'-power.
We do not want to risk mafia stealing 6 items at a time.

Besides, it is a point to let the ICs get fireproof before the mafia can prime them.

IC is probably not the right word, though. Town Leader is better. The second person is not confirmed town, and we can always lynch him later if he turns out not to be so towny after all.

[pingpongsam]

So it must be D1 that we elect the Towniest of them all who is not thus mod-confirmed.
I nominate myself.

[chairs]

So it must be D1 that we elect the Towniest of them all who is not thus mod-confirmed.

Correct.

[pingpongsam]

So it must be D1 that we elect the Towniest of them all who is not thus mod-confirmed.

Correct.

Do you second the nomination?

[chairs]

So it must be D1 that we elect the Towniest of them all who is not thus mod-confirmed.

Correct.

Do you second the nomination?

I'm not seconding any nominations as I'm still very limited access.

[yuma]

So it must be D1 that we elect the Towniest of them all who is not thus mod-confirmed.
I nominate myself.

I protest this. You would be the last person I would nominate at this point... given you are my strongest scum read

[yuma]

Also... multiple people have stated that we should both lynch and coordinate the NK. It appears that the reasoning behind this is to mitigate mafia's ability to prime and such...

I get that reasoning, but nearly every game I have been a part of in the past when there were many kills fast town lost. I think in general town does better the longer the game goes on. Now more specifically to this game, I get that we want to mitigate mafia's powers, but it appears that everyone is forgetting we have powers of our own. Everyone seems to be focusing on the protective abilities, but there are investigative abilities as well. The longer the game last the more these powers can be created/used and the more likely it is that they will be used to find scum. Rushing through the game just shooting at random I don't think spells a chance of success. I think we should take our time like normal and try to maximize TOWN's powers.

Play offensively with our powers rather than play defensively trying to lessen mafia's should be how we play. Otherwise I think we are dooming ourselves to what will probably be a fast and painful loss for town...

That said, I won't be participating in the hot potato shenanigans if we go through with a lynch. I would much prefer no-lynching and then controlling the hot potato so let's just do that instead ok...?

[Witherweaver]

Also... multiple people have stated that we should both lynch and coordinate the NK. It appears that the reasoning behind this is to mitigate mafia's ability to prime and such...

I get that reasoning, but nearly every game I have been a part of in the past when there were many kills fast town lost. I think in general town does better the longer the game goes on. Now more specifically to this game, I get that we want to mitigate mafia's powers, but it appears that everyone is forgetting we have powers of our own. Everyone seems to be focusing on the protective abilities, but there are investigative abilities as well. The longer the game last the more these powers can be created/used and the more likely it is that they will be used to find scum. Rushing through the game just shooting at random I don't think spells a chance of success. I think we should take our time like normal and try to maximize TOWN's powers.

Play offensively with our powers rather than play defensively trying to lessen mafia's should be how we play. Otherwise I think we are dooming ourselves to what will probably be a fast and painful loss for town...

That said, I won't be participating in the hot potato shenanigans if we go through with a lynch. I would much prefer no-lynching and then controlling the hot potato so let's just do that instead ok...?

What's your stance on the "Mafia doesn't do any kills and just primes everyone" issue with no lynching?

[yuma]

If they don't kill then we lynch the person that should have died during the night from the potato...

I have no problem with mafia choosing to not use one of their night kills. Priming, if I understand it correctly, basically allows them to prime someone (but not kill) the first night. From then on they can either ignite and kill or continue priming.

So basically if they choose to go this route as their only method of killing then they are basically forfeiting their first night kill and have one less in the game at least (or more if they go through more then one prime-ignition cycles)...

[Witherweaver]

Actually, Yuma, if we go with Ash's hot potato strategy using a no-lynch, would we still no-lynch when someone doesn't die, or do we lynch that person?  In the latter case, Mafia doesn't need to send bomb at all, which can be tracked, blocked, etc., and just let our lynch take care of their night kill.

Though maybe that's still better.  That would be like regular Mafia where we choose no-lynch every day, except we vote on who the Mafia's night-kill is.  Which was Ash's point in the first place.

In the case when we always no-lynch regardless, then... if Mafia never sends potato and just primes people.. they prime and build items.. we build protective items.. eventually we try to get an investigative result.  We can make some protective abilities, which basically means Mafia will need to prime some players twice (not sure if they'll know if their prime failed or not), but on the other hand they know who to prime and we have to guess on who to protect.   It's hard to visualize, but I think this is better for Mafia.  At the very least, we're very ill-informed through most of the game.

PPE: Yuma answered, okay.  I think I agree that that's better.

So basically your idea is: Use Ash's strategy.  No lynch Day 1.  Vote for person to get blown up each Day n, if they're alive on Day n+1, lynch them, else no lynch. 

[mail-mi]

I am officially /outing, as I have a trip to Spain at the beginning of june that is like 10 days long, and availability will be severely low.

[pingpongsam]

So it must be D1 that we elect the Towniest of them all who is not thus mod-confirmed.
I nominate myself.

I protest this. You would be the last person I would nominate at this point... given you are my strongest scum read

My point exactly. I won't nominate anyone but myself because outside of the IC I am the only person I have any certainty at all is not scum. I am suspicious of anyone who supports this plan who votes for anyone besides themselves or me. Thus it is quite an impasse.

[Witherweaver]

What about everyone sends an item to Chairs tonight and he makes any items he thinks are good.  If we follow a patato strategy, Chairs cannot die tonight, I think, unless we pick a mafia and yheybsend it to him twice.  Then Mafia dies.  And even so he can maybe he can make a ..uh.. Diffuser? On phone can't check. 

Tomorrow we can consider another plan.

[Archetype]

What about everyone sends an item to Chairs tonight and he makes any items he thinks are good.  If we follow a patato strategy, Chairs cannot die tonight, I think, unless we pick a mafia and yheybsend it to him twice.  Then Mafia dies.  And even so he can maybe he can make a ..uh.. Diffuser? On phone can't check. 

Tomorrow we can consider another plan.

I think the only way that chairs could die tonight is if an Accelerant is bought, used, then he is ignited. Pretty unlikely...so I'm in favor of the item sending plan. If I were scum I wouldn't send the bomb with ash's proposed plan, so I think we should still lynch today.