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Author Topic: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!  (Read 172298 times)

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EFHW

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RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« on: March 27, 2014, 02:06:42 pm »

INNOVATION 2

Police have road-blocked the town, so the dastardly mafia goons cannot escape. But this state of siege means that neither the detectives nor the mafia in the town can bring in supplies from outside except by carrier pigeon. So, each detective and each criminal only receives one item a night to help him or her either rid the town of criminals, or overpower the town, depending on their motivations. The mafia know the detectives have gone undercover, so they are pretending to be undercover police as well. When any of these twelve meet each other in the street, they greet each other pleasantly and compare "crime-fighting" notes. Sometimes it gets heated, but then they go to the local pub and have Cokes or beers together and chill out for awhile. They often find their comrades at the pub as well, and a surprising amount of investigation gets done just sitting together at the tables! At closing time, they all pretend to yawn and to want nothing more than sleep. But the mafia secretly convene in their subterranean hideaway under the police station to bake potatoes, and the detectives each go home alone to their houses to receive their items and plan their strategies. If only they knew who to trust!

12 players
3 mafia (1 Arsonist, 1 Backup Arsonist, 1 Goon), 9 detectives (1 IC, 8 VT)
4 items: badge, magnifying glass, bandages, paper
8 day Days, 3 day Nights

PLAYER LIST

1. PPS
2. mail-mi Voltaire
3. Archetype Vanilla Townie  Killed N1
4. yuma
5. faust
6. chairs sudgy  Innocent Child
7. Xerxespraelor  Mafia Backup Arsonist  Lynched Day 2
8. Witherweaver
9. A Drowned Kernel
10. xeiron 
11. Jimmmmm Vanilla Townie Killed N2
12. ashersky

Tags: Teproc, AndrewisFTTW

Comod: Archetype


At the END of each night, each player gets a random item (N0 TWO identical items are given to each player), evenly distributed among the 4 possible items (exact proportions will be announced if not symmetrical). At the START of each night, starting with N1, each player may send one item to one person. This phase ends after 24 hours. At any time during the rest of the night up until 2 hours before deadline, each player may build and use one or more powers according to the items they possess. Players may make up to as many powers in one night as their items will allow, or make none. Powers may be used immediately or saved for later (with the exceptions of Embezzler, which must be used in the first 24 hours of night, and passive powers, which go into effect immediately). All orders end 2 hours before deadline.

Each item alone gives a 1-shot relatively weak power. Combinations of two items give better powers, but two of an item always does nothing. 4 of a single item is the most powerful. Table of items and powers here

Mafia Nightkill: Hot Potato Bomb: Mafia choose a sender and a target within the first 6 hours of the night.  They can submit their order before day ends if they wish.  For the first 48 hours of the night, that target can choose a different target to send the bomb to, and so on. The first person to receive the bomb 2 times dies, unless bombproof. If no one receives the bomb 2 times, the last person holding the bomb can choose to let it explode or opt to have the recipient chosen randomly from among all the recipients that night. IF YOU HAVE NOT YET RECEIVED THE BOMB, IT IS IMPORTANT TO CHECK-IN 1 HOUR BEFORE DEADLINE IN CASE YOU ARE THE LAST PERSON HOLDING THE BOMB.  The mafia first sending the bomb may not target their initial target again in the same night, but their partners may. Only the first sending of the bomb is visible to investigations. The first order can be placed via the mafia QT.  All subsequent bomb orders, including mafia orders, should be by new PM’s (not replies) with your target in the subject line.

Mafia Arsonist: “Primes” one player a night, or chooses to blow up the primed players all at once. Cannot prime and blow up on the same night and can only ignite once. If the Backup Arsonist becomes the Arsonist, a second ignition of newly primed players is possible.

Order of action resolution:
Resolving when received, which must be before 6 hour mark (or time designated by mod):
Defuser (this order may be submitted before day ends)
Send Hot Potato Bomb (this order may be submitted before day ends); see Potato resolution chain below

Resolving at 24 hour mark:
Send items
Send Message with item
Embezzle

Resolving at 70 hour mark:
Last Bomb recipient
Exaggeration
Send Message (without item)

Resolving at 72 hour mark:
Make powers
Send Message (without item)
Block: Dazzling Light, Cryptographer, Security Guard
Protect: Stealth, Firefighter
Prime/Ignite/Accelerant, Hot Potato Explosion
Investigate: Be/Impersonate Police Officer, Reconnaissance, Spy, Telescope, Binoculars

Hot Potato resolution:
Protect: Stealth, Defuser, Bounce, Privacy Curtain
Subterfuge
Receive
Send

PM’s
TOWN:

Quote
Dear Detective [name here], You are in hot pursuit of three wicked mafia goons who are hiding in plain sight in your town.  You will receive items that will allow you to purchase powers to identify and stop these creepy people.  Here is the table of item combinations that give you powers.  These are your first two items:

item 1      item 2

You win when all threats to town have been eliminated.

IC TOWN:

Quote
Dear Chief Detective [name here], You and your team are in hot pursuit of three wicked mafia goons who are hiding in plain sight in your town.  As chief detective you are universally trusted – an Innocent Child, so to speak.  You will receive items that will allow you to purchase powers to identify and stop these creepy people.  Here is the table of item combinations that give you powers.  These are your first two items:

item 1      item 2

You win when all threats to town have been eliminated.

MAFIA

GOON:

Quote
Dear [Mafioso [name here], the detectives in this town are all looking for you!  You and your partners [name one] and [name two] will receive items that will allow you to purchase powers to elude these pesky crimefighters, and you also have the handy Hot Potato Bomb!

Each night, one of you chooses a target for the hot potato bomb.  This order is placed via your QT, in bold.  The recipient then passes it on, etc.  If the initial sender receives the bomb, he or she may not send it back to the original target.  If a mafia partner receives the bomb, he or she may target the original target.  The first person to receive the bomb twice gets exploded.  This could be one of you or someone from town.  Only the initial sending of the bomb can be seen by investigations.  Also, all bomb sending orders after the first must be sent by PM in new messages with the target in the subject line.

You may speak to your mafia partners each night in your secret den: [mafia QT]

Here is the table of item combinations that give you powers.  These are your first two items:

item 1      item 2

You win when the number of mafia equals or exceeds the number of  detectives, or when nothing can stop that from happening.

ARSONIST:
Quote
Dear [Mafioso [name here], you are an Arsonist.  The detectives in this town are all looking for you!  You and your partners [name one] and [name two] will receive items that will allow you to purchase powers to elude these pesky crimefighters, and you also have the handy Hot Potato Bomb!

Each night, one of you chooses a target for the hot potato bomb.  This order is placed via your QT, in bold.  The recipient then passes it on, etc.  If the initial sender receives the bomb, he or she may not send it back to the original target.  If a mafia partner receives the bomb, he or she may target the original target.  The first person to receive the bomb twice gets exploded.  This could be one of you or someone from town.  Only the initial sending of the bomb can be seen by investigations.  Also, all bomb sending orders after the first must be sent by PM in new messages with the target in the subject line.

As Arsonist, you may choose one player each night to “prime”.  They will not know they have been primed.  Once you have primed 1 or more players, you may choose to ignite instead.  This instantly kills all the primed players at once.  You may only ignite once.  Once you have done an ignition, you cannot prime any more players.

You may speak to your mafia partners each night in your secret den: [mafia QT]

Here is the table of item combinations that give you powers.  These are your first two items:

item 1      item 2

You win when the number of mafia equals or exceeds the number of  detectives, or when nothing can stop that from happening.

BACK-UP ARSONIST:
Quote
Dear [Mafioso [name here], you are the Back-up Arsonist.  The detectives in this town are all looking for you!  You and your partners [name one] and [name two] will receive items that will allow you to purchase powers to elude these pesky crimefighters, and you also have the handy Hot Potato Bomb!

Each night, one of you chooses a target for the hot potato bomb.  This order is placed via your QT, in bold.  The recipient then passes it on, etc.  If the initial sender receives the bomb, he or she may not send it back to the original target.  If a mafia partner receives the bomb, he or she may target the original target.  The first person to receive the bomb twice gets exploded.  This could be one of you or someone from town.  Only the initial sending of the bomb can be seen by investigations.  Also, all bomb sending orders after the first must be sent by PM in new messages with the target in the subject line.

As Backup Arsonist, you become the Arsonist if the first Arsonist is killed.  The Arsonist may choose one player each night to “prime”.  They will not know they have been primed.  Once 1 or more players have been primed, the Arsonist may choose to ignite instead.  This instantly kills all the primed players at once.  The Arsonist may only ignite once.  As Back-up Arsonist, if there has already been an ignition at the time you become Arsonist, you can have a second ignition of players you have primed. If there has not already been an ignition, you can ignite all primed players, both those primed by your predecessor and those primed by you.

You may speak to your mafia partners each night in your secret den: [mafia QT]

Here is the table of item combinations that give you powers.  These are your first two items:

item 1      item 2

You win when the number of mafia equals or exceeds the number of  detectives, or when nothing can stop that from happening.


Basic Mafia Ruleset

The Golden Rule:

Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun!  Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.

Please read The Civility Pledge before signing up for any mafia game on this site.  If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play.

Excessive personal attacks or uncivil behavior may be dealt with by modifiers or modkills.


Game Summary:

Mafia is a social deduction game.  There is an "informed minority" (the mafia) and an "uninformed majority" (the town).  The mafia know who each other are, and are trying to be the only people left alive.  The town doesn't know who anybody else is, and are trying to find and lynch all of the mafia.  The mafia, to make sure the town doesn't know who they are, must pretend to be town to win.  The mafia usually can kill at night, to help them in being the only ones left alive.

1. General Gameplay and Etiquette:

1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind.  Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. There is to be NO personal communication outside of the forum postings unless your role PM specifically allows it.  Mafia members may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage.
3. If you have a role with a Night action your choices are due to all mods by the posted deadlines (see Order Resolution list) (generally 48 hours from Night start during the first few Nights; later Nights may have shorter deadlines).  If we do not receive your PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions.  In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used.  If your Night action was mandatory, it will be decided randomly.
4. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage). Items may be built and used on N0
5. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mods know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase.

2. Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:

1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate.  Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until the mods lock the thread; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
4. The length of deadlines is up to the mod's discretion.
5. What happens when the deadline is hit and nobody has a majority of votes is up to the mod's discretion.
6. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName.  Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
7. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
8. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
9. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post in the game or in Quicktopics. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent.
10. If the thread is locked, you may not post.  Threads can be locked for various reasons, but no matter what the reason, you may not post.  The mod may forget or be unable to lock the thread, but if they say it is locked, it is still locked.
11. Do not edit or delete posts.  We don't want some players having more information than others.  If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post. Mods will not edit posts for you.

3. Miscellaneous/Mechanics:

1. Bold, colored text is reserved for the Mods.  No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mods privately.  Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mods may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently.  Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed.  These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mods so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued upon request after 48 hours of no activity.  A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement.  A player who has been prodded 2 times is subject to replacement under rule 3.10 without further notice.  As a general rule you should aim for one post every 24 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving.
6. Please do not discuss ongoing games, it can unintentionally affect the other game.
7. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, which may include modkill(s) if needed.
8. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread.  Treat this game as a commitment.  Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.
9. Players who discover they are too busy to play in a game or want to leave the game for civility issues are not allowed to officially /out in the thread.  A request to /out must only be done via a PM to the moderator.  Please let us know as soon as you know so a replacement can be found.  Please do not use this as a manipulation technique.  /outing as an expression of "pique" is strongly discouraged.  It often can strongly affect the rest of the game for the remaining players. (Note players may continue to threaten to /out or imply that they might as long as it does not include an official request.)  Requests to /out are final once submitted accepted.  There will be no /outing and then /inning back into the game so make sure that when you /out you have thought it through and really want to do it. Players that can't be replaced will simply be mod-killed. 

10. If a player wants needs to /out, they may be replaced by anyone on D1-N1.  On D2-N2, no one from the speccy may replace the player.  After this, a player who /outs the mod may decide not to replace the player.  It is up to the mod's discretion whether to modkill the player or do something else under these circumstances.

Helpful Links:

Wiki Links:


--Main Wiki Page

--Newbie Guide

--Frequently Asked Questions

--Commonly Used Abbreviations

--Mafia Theory

Forum Links:

--Vacation/Limited Access announcements

--Mafia Lingo/Dictionary
« Last Edit: June 14, 2014, 05:20:16 pm by EFHW »
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ashersky

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2014, 03:24:13 pm »

/tag for now
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2013, 2014, 2015 Mafia Mod of the Year
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pingpongsam

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2014, 03:32:35 pm »

/in
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AndrewisFTTW

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2014, 05:35:42 pm »

This looks like it's a little beyond me so /tag!
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Wins: M39, M41, M48, M96, M97, M102, M105
Losses: M40, M43, M45, BM17 (?), RMM13, RMM17, RMM20, NM7, ZM18, M100, M109
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2014, 05:47:22 pm »

/tag
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mail-mi

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2014, 06:18:29 pm »

/in
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I currently imagine mail-mi wearing a dark trenchcoat and a bowler hat, hunched over a bit, toothpick in his mouth, holding a gun in his pocket.  One bead of sweat trickling down his nose.

'And what is it that ye shall hope for? Behold I say unto you that ye shall have hope through the atonement of Christ and the power of his resurrection, to be raised unto life eternal, and this because of your faith in him according to the promise." - Moroni 7:41, the Book of Mormon

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2014, 06:24:03 pm »

/tag
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2014, 07:24:28 pm »

/tag at least

need to see where I am with games
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Archetype

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2014, 07:34:07 pm »

Wooooooo!

/in!
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2014, 09:46:42 pm »

/tag at least
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2014, 09:53:57 pm »

just saw the spreadsheet... so this is going to be an open RMM game?

I am totally /in. I'll make room
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faust

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2014, 06:45:43 am »

This looks crazy complicated, I like it! I'll /in if this doesn't start before April 14, which I dont think it will.
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chairs

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2014, 11:32:06 am »

/in

Jimmmmm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2014, 11:37:21 am »

/in

chairs! :D
Literally an hour or so ago I checked your profile to see when your last post was and was sad to see that it was in February!
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chairs

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2014, 09:46:07 pm »

Life's been... interesting.

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2014, 05:00:29 am »

/in
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EFHW

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2014, 11:12:51 am »

bump!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2014, 11:35:37 am »

/in
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2014, 11:08:33 pm »

Bump!

Seriously, guys, join! It's going to rock!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2014, 11:49:01 pm »

/in
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2014, 03:05:35 am »

/in
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EFHW

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2014, 10:01:45 am »

Two spots left!  ashersky, are you hammering?
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ashersky

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2014, 05:20:04 pm »

Two spots left!  ashersky, are you hammering?

Call me Thor.
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EFHW

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2014, 05:29:02 pm »

Two spots left!  ashersky, are you hammering?

Call me Thor.
ok, Thor
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2014, 05:31:57 pm »

Sorry, I'm going to have to /out I think, I'm going to sign up for Monsters U and I don't want to be in too many games at once.
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ashersky

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2014, 11:12:17 am »

This just needs 3 more!
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f.ds Mafia Board Moderator

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11x MVP: M30, M83, ZM16, M25, M38, M61, M76, RMM5, RMM41, RMM46, M51

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2014, 01:45:42 am »

If this starts after May 25th, I'll play.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2014, 12:22:50 pm »

not just yet
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2014, 12:16:28 am »

Well I'm dead in Monsters U, I'm back /in.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2014, 12:25:13 am »

/in
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2014, 12:28:14 am »

We just need one yuma more to start!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2014, 12:29:02 am »

if everyone signed up stays signed up and if ash hammers, we are ready to go.

Although I am not sure if PPS is still around given a baby was due a little while ago. Hope everything went well PPS!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2014, 12:29:31 am »

We just need one yuma more to start!

I am already signed up!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2014, 12:30:54 am »

IF YOU HAVE NOT YET RECEIVED THE BOMB, IT IS IMPORTANT TO CHECK-IN 1 HOUR BEFORE DEADLINE IN CASE YOU ARE THE LAST PERSON HOLDING THE BOMB.

Hmm, this seems unrealistic. What if you're unable to check in 1 hour before deadline, due to IRL commitments or it being the middle of the night?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2014, 12:33:34 am »

We just need one yuma more to start!

I am already signed up!

Oh.  hammer-in.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2014, 02:16:42 am »

YES YES YES
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2014, 02:17:49 am »

IF YOU HAVE NOT YET RECEIVED THE BOMB, IT IS IMPORTANT TO CHECK-IN 1 HOUR BEFORE DEADLINE IN CASE YOU ARE THE LAST PERSON HOLDING THE BOMB.

Hmm, this seems unrealistic. What if you're unable to check in 1 hour before deadline, due to IRL commitments or it being the middle of the night?

I think we can do a workaround with just giving EFHW orders containing "if I get the bomb, do this-and-that".
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2014, 02:18:59 am »

IF YOU HAVE NOT YET RECEIVED THE BOMB, IT IS IMPORTANT TO CHECK-IN 1 HOUR BEFORE DEADLINE IN CASE YOU ARE THE LAST PERSON HOLDING THE BOMB.

Hmm, this seems unrealistic. What if you're unable to check in 1 hour before deadline, due to IRL commitments or it being the middle of the night?

I think we can do a workaround with just giving EFHW orders containing "if I get the bomb, do this-and-that".
I hope so. It makes the initial bomb sending a lot easier for the Mafia as well.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2014, 09:16:39 am »

So bomb beats paper and rock, but scissors beats bomb?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2014, 10:50:43 am »

IF YOU HAVE NOT YET RECEIVED THE BOMB, IT IS IMPORTANT TO CHECK-IN 1 HOUR BEFORE DEADLINE IN CASE YOU ARE THE LAST PERSON HOLDING THE BOMB.

Hmm, this seems unrealistic. What if you're unable to check in 1 hour before deadline, due to IRL commitments or it being the middle of the night?

I think we can do a workaround with just giving EFHW orders containing "if I get the bomb, do this-and-that".

That's fine.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2014, 10:53:52 am »

I'll check with PPS and see if he still wants to play.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2014, 07:50:57 pm »

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2014, 08:38:04 pm »

pps is still in!  PM's tomorrow evening.  I know I'll go nuts playing in two games and modding one, but it will be fun.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2014, 10:18:01 am »

With the amount of sleep deprivation I'm getting it'll be drunk mafia for me.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II (Sign-ups open)
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2014, 04:56:55 pm »

PM's have been sent!  Please confirm by PM or in QT.

THREAD LOCKED

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - N0!
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2014, 12:02:25 pm »

Everyone has confirmed.  The game will start at 8 pm tonight!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2014, 08:14:34 pm »

RMM15: INNOVATION II

It was a beautiful sunny day in Wikiville.  But the town detectives weren't outside enjoying the blue sky and chirping birds.  They were in a meeting with their Chief, and he was not happy.

"People!" Chief Detective chairs bellowed, "we have an infestation of mafia in this town and it must be eliminated!  In fact, I have reason to believe 3 of our own have been recruited into the mafia - whether through bribery or blackmail, I don't know.  We must root them out!  Look alert!"

Detectives A Drowned Kernel, Archetype, ashersky, faust, Jimmmmm, mail-mi, pingpongsam, Witherweaver, xeiron, XerxesPraelor, and yuma all jumped up and looked alert.  They marched out with expressions of determination on their faces but uncertainty in their hearts.  Who were the traitors?  How would they figure it out?

Once outside, they squinted in the sudden bright sunlight, and suddenly packages fell on their heads!  It was the daily delivery of items from the carrier pigeons, who were their only sources of supplies during the lockdown of the Wikiville.  Each detective grabbed a package and the group scattered, each one unwilling to have the others know what he had received.

chairs is confirmed town.

Day 1 start!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2014, 08:17:08 pm »

I have a plan.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2014, 08:17:25 pm »

Vote Count 1.0

not voting (12): A Drowned Kernel, Archetype, ashersky, chairs, faust, Jimmmmm, mail-mi, pingpongsam, Witherweaver, xeiron, XerxesPraelor, yuma

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.  Deadline is Thursday, May 29th at 8 pm
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 08:19:19 pm by EFHW »
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2014, 08:17:39 pm »

I have a plan.

I disagree with this plan
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2014, 08:17:59 pm »

Is it a cunning plan?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2014, 08:24:02 pm »

So, the mafia have 2 NK mechanisms, right?  There's priming and hoping the detonator guy doesn't die, and then there's the hot potato.

Town controls the Mafia's nightly NK.  We should determine, every day, who will die that night.  Anyone who refuses to be the night kill is scum.

Remember, per the open setup, we're all just VTs with two identical, useless items.  Like, two pieces of paper is crap.  No town member should have objections to dying at night.

Basically, we can all decide/vote on who should be the NK.  If they protest too much, SCUM and we lynch them.  If they don't protest, but DON'T die, SCUM and we lynch them the next day (because that means mafia chose NOT to send the potato out, or that person received the potato and passed it).

Remember, the person holding the potato has the power to hold onto it and die.  We choose who dies, mafia gives them the potato, they die.  We are taking power away from mafia, controlling who we lose each night.  We also force mafia into positions they don't like with the daily NK discussion.

They'll be caught during the day if they fight, caught at night if they don't die.

--CAVEAT:  Mafia can no kill on purpose to frame a towny for not dying.  That's still an awfully slow way to get your NKs through, so I'm not worried about it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2014, 08:24:43 pm »

ALSO!  The person who agrees to die can still give items away before they die.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2014, 08:25:33 pm »

Also ALSO!  We could even no lynch on occasion to use the plan.  Slows the mislynches down by just having voluntary NK deaths.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2014, 08:28:21 pm »

That's rather ruthless. But interesting. If we go through with it, how does scum respond? By just playing along and letting us pick the night kill? It does make the arsonist more powerful, since they have more information on who to prime.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2014, 08:31:24 pm »

That's rather ruthless. But interesting. If we go through with it, how does scum respond? By just playing along and letting us pick the night kill? It does make the arsonist more powerful, since they have more information on who to prime.

Right.  But, well, at some point we'll choose mafia as the nightkill, and no matter how they play it, they'll be caught somehow.

As for the priming thing, that's tough anyway.  Unless we hit the detonator guy with a lynch, we're basically toast on N3.  If we're hoping that the random potato tossing lands on the mafia's primed target each night, that's just wishful thinking.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2014, 08:32:21 pm »

The plan does eliminate the possibility that mafia could be killed by the hot potato bomb, too. But maybe that was a low possibility anyway?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2014, 08:34:47 pm »

Of course, scum could avoid getting themselves picked, just like they can avoid getting themselves lynched. But two lynches a day for town rather than a lynch and a nightkill is certainly an improvement over the normal state of things.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2014, 08:38:26 pm »

Of course, in the scenario where this is scum!ash proposing this plan, then it's just mafia trying to take back control of the semi-random nightkill, because ash is easily charismatic enough to control discussion of who gets picked for it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2014, 08:39:18 pm »

Of course, in the scenario where this is scum!ash proposing this plan, then it's just mafia trying to take back control of the semi-random nightkill, because ash is easily charismatic enough to control discussion of who gets picked for it.

I'll die first if that helps.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2014, 08:39:47 pm »

The plan does eliminate the possibility that mafia could be killed by the hot potato bomb, too. But maybe that was a low possibility anyway?

Mafia will be smart enough to be sure to be around before the potato deadline.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #61 on: May 21, 2014, 08:42:03 pm »

yeah... not super excited by this plan. I guess I get the point, but basically it just turns a lynch into  NK (which is what I think we should do if we do it) except that it is potentially  manipulatable by scum just like a lynch is... but even more so if you put on the "if X doesn't die, then lynch them the next day" restriction.

I do imagine some sort of coordination is required for the hot potato, but I am not convinced that this is the best route to use

mostly I just don't like it because it manipulates the game state away from what I imagine was originally intended, but ash and I have had this conversation a bunch of times and I don't think either of us are super interested in having it again...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #62 on: May 21, 2014, 08:49:16 pm »

mostly I just don't like it because it manipulates the game state away from what I imagine was originally intended, but ash and I have had this conversation a bunch of times and I don't think either of us are super interested in having it again...

But we can...this is the problem with open setups.  They are inviting you to "break" them.  I'm not breaking the setup with my potato plan, though (as you and I agree generally on not liking setups to be broken, but instead fixed), just turning the tables on scum as best we can.

We definitely should control the potato.  There's no conceivable argument (to me) for a town member to NOT want control over the potato.  The potato is dangerous, and we should do everything we can to minimize the damage.

My plan, or a variation that is acceptable to all, does that.  I am, as always, open to revisions and suggestions.  But just blithely ignoring the potato (which I'm not suggesting you are doing) is just bad town play.  The setup allows for us to manipulate the potato, so we should.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2014, 08:52:22 pm »

You mean we vote for a night kill and a lynch every day, unless we decide no lynch is better for whatever reason? So day 1, do we lynch too?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2014, 08:53:08 pm »

INNOVATION 2
Order of action resolution:
Resolving when received, which must be before 6 hour mark (or time designated by mod):
Defuser (this order may be submitted before day ends)
Send Hot Potato Bomb (this order may be submitted before day ends)

Resolving at 24 hour mark:
Send items
Send Message with item
Embezzle

Resolving at 70 hour mark:
Last Bomb recipient
Exaggeration
Send Message (without item)

Resolving at 72 hour mark:
Make powers
Send Message (without item)
Block: Dazzling Light, Cryptographer, Security Guard
Protect: Stealth, Firefighter
Prime/Ignite/Accelerant
Investigate: Be/Impersonate Police Officer, Reconnaissance, Spy, Telescope, Binoculars

Hot Potato resolution:
Protect: Defuser, Bounce, Privacy Curtain
Subterfuge
Receive
Send

So, we should look at this as well.  The idea of full item claims should be taken into consideration.  The sending of items happens before dying/blocking/anything, so mafia cannot surely remove items from the game based on our claims.

There's also the potato powers.  Subterfuge doesn't affect the plan, but bounce does.  So does Privacy Curtain.  So we'd need town to NOT make these items.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2014, 08:56:07 pm »

You mean we vote for a night kill and a lynch every day, unless we decide no lynch is better for whatever reason? So day 1, do we lynch too?

Right.  It'd be a town decision on whether we lynch or not.  yuma sounds like he prefers to no lynch if we decide the nightkill.

Remember, if we do nothing about the NKs, on N2, we could be like this:

D1, mislynch, 8 v 3
N1, NK, 7 v 3
D2, mislynch, 6 v 3
N2, NK, 5 v 3; primed explosion, 4 v 3
D3, LYLO

Then, even if we lynch the Arsonist, the backup gets to start over.  But it won't matter, as we'll be at LYLO for the rest of the game.

All told, we're screwed.  At least we can control stuff.

Another option is to claim potato protection and ask for the potato.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2014, 08:56:36 pm »

Like, if you have a privacy curtain and receive the potato once, it just doesn't explode?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2014, 08:57:18 pm »

The plan does eliminate the possibility that mafia could be killed by the hot potato bomb, too. But maybe that was a low possibility anyway?

Mafia will be smart enough to be sure to be around before the potato deadline.

But the bomb blows up automatically if it's sent to the same person twice, which could happen to mafia (though very unlikely). I agree that some sort of town plan on how to handle the bomb is a good idea, and it can always be revised on a day-by-day basis. Maybe we form a chain, where everyone agrees to send it to a specific person if they get it, then we use who dies as information as to where the bomb started?

PPE: That last bit ash mentions would probably require some item coordination, which is something else we should maybe talk about.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2014, 08:58:22 pm »

Like, if you have a privacy curtain and receive the potato once, it just doesn't explode?

Yeah, the item description says "you need to receive it 3 times for it to explode."  The item description doesn't mention what happens if the Privacy Curtain person is the last person holding the bomb.

EFHW, if the last person holding the bomb has a Privacy Curtain, can they choose to have it explode, and then the explosion is blocked by the Curtain?

I'm assuming no, as that just beats the potato every single time.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2014, 09:01:31 pm »

But the bomb blows up automatically if it's sent to the same person twice, which could happen to mafia (though very unlikely). I agree that some sort of town plan on how to handle the bomb is a good idea, and it can always be revised on a day-by-day basis. Maybe we form a chain, where everyone agrees to send it to a specific person if they get it, then we use who dies as information as to where the bomb started?

This is a good point.  The bomb explodes on second receipt OR at the end of the night.  I was thinking of the second option as the best way to control things (i.e., ashersky will die N1, whomever receives the potato tonight, target ashersky; ashersky just holds onto it until the end of the night and lets it explode).

The chain idea is nice, if someone better at that stuff can figure it out.  Like, we have 11 players alive on N1 (assuming a lynch).

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11

Whomever gets the potato first passes to the next person on the list.  The next day, if someone's alive and didn't get the potato ever, we can narrow down where it may have been tossed to in the line, but doesn't tell us who sent it.

Plus, scum can just manipulate it if the list is known.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2014, 09:05:38 pm »

I guess what the chain does is gives mafia direct control of the NK, but also gives us information about who they sent it to? Is that actually useful? The NK is almost always going to be the person they sent it to first anyway, because whenever mafia gets sent the bomb they're going to send it to the original recipient to ensure an explosion.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2014, 09:17:19 pm »

I guess what the chain does is gives mafia direct control of the NK, but also gives us information about who they sent it to? Is that actually useful? The NK is almost always going to be the person they sent it to first anyway, because whenever mafia gets sent the bomb they're going to send it to the original recipient to ensure an explosion.

Good point.  Decided the NK ahead of time and having whomever gets the bomb first just send it to that person is the best way to ensure town control over the kill.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2014, 09:34:01 pm »

I am confused.

I volunteer to be the first NK. So, how, exactly, do we make scum NK me?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2014, 09:44:15 pm »

Hi everyone! I helped design this setup - so I'm really excited to play it!!

So, I think ashersky's plan works...to an extent. I think there is just too many variables (namely the Arsonist) that can throw it out of wack. I do think we, as a Town, should try our best to control the bomb. I don't think that a chain or ordering is the best way to do it - it's too manipulatable by scum. Like I said, there are too many variables too to have someone lynched the next day if something doen't go right during the night. I do think we should decide, as a Town, the day beforehand 2 people we'd want to give the bomb to if we're handed it. It alerts scum, but Town can get the Defuser or Bounce to prove their Towniness.

My plan involves the IC. I think that we should give him a 1-shot Fireproof ASAP. I'm even willing to hand out supplies to anyone who needs them. The IC is a prime (heh) target for the Arsonist and and I think we can prevent it with the Fireproofs. There is, however, the Cryptographer. So I'm not sure how to correctly do it.

Also: if someone gets an Investigative result (Watcher/Tracker/Voyeur/Followe), claim it immediatly. Especially in the early game, scum has no way to replicate these results and claiming it immediatly should confirm you as Town.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #74 on: May 21, 2014, 09:59:30 pm »

I am confused.

I volunteer to be the first NK. So, how, exactly, do we make scum NK me?

Scum has to throw out the potato to someone.  Whomever receive it throws it to you.  You just hold it, and let it explode at the end of the night.  That's it.

The only way I see that scum can manipulate this is to not throw out the potato at all.  But then, hey, no night kill and at worst a mislynch of the volunteer the next day.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2014, 10:05:12 pm »

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2014, 10:09:10 pm »

Like, if you have a privacy curtain and receive the potato once, it just doesn't explode?

Yeah, the item description says "you need to receive it 3 times for it to explode."  The item description doesn't mention what happens if the Privacy Curtain person is the last person holding the bomb.

EFHW, if the last person holding the bomb has a Privacy Curtain, can they choose to have it explode, and then the explosion is blocked by the Curtain?

"1-shot Privacy Curtain: You need to receive the bomb 3 times for it to explode and you aren’t included in randomly determined explosions unless you have been targeted twice. This is a passive power that lasts until it is used."
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2014, 10:10:24 pm »

Alright... I get the premise and I think I am ok with it.

But I don't like the idea of "volunteers" that is just silly to me. Like self-voting. It serves no purpose and only makes me suspicious of PPS and ashersky. If you are town then stay alive!

And I do think we should use this method in-lieu of lynching. We pick someone that we would lynch. We then no-lynch instead. After that we play hot potato with everyone reverting the hot potato back to said player until that player dies (I am not sure if said player should just hold onto it... need to think about that, cause I know that I as town would have a hard time sacrificing myself when the bomb could be sent back to mafia) and if when day breaks and a mafia player didn't die via the bomb nor did the intended player from the previous day we actually lynch that player (after coming to a consensus on who we would want to pseudo-lynch the next night with the hot potato).

I like this because it basically allows for potentially mislynched players to hand off their PRs before dying. That is always the fear with a mislynch yes? That we will take down a PR. Well this way the player, if town, that is targeted, hands off their PR abilities to someone else and then dies instead of taking the PR with them to the grave.

So basically we need to scum hunt. Try and find scum and only if we are extremely confident about it do we actually lynch them. If we are unsure (which we are in mafia about 80% of the time despite how sure people pretend to be) then we hot potato them that night)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #78 on: May 21, 2014, 10:10:51 pm »

If my understanding of the bomb is correct, I fully agree with ash's plan and he receives some Town points for suggesting it. I disagree with yuma's disagreement based on it not being intended play. I think we should take advantage of anything we can, and anything that the designer doesn't want us to do should be forbidden or disincentivised.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2014, 10:19:13 pm »

Like, if you have a privacy curtain and receive the potato once, it just doesn't explode?

Yeah, the item description says "you need to receive it 3 times for it to explode."  The item description doesn't mention what happens if the Privacy Curtain person is the last person holding the bomb.

EFHW, if the last person holding the bomb has a Privacy Curtain, can they choose to have it explode, and then the explosion is blocked by the Curtain?

"1-shot Privacy Curtain: You need to receive the bomb 3 times for it to explode and you aren’t included in randomly determined explosions unless you have been targeted twice. This is a passive power that lasts until it is used."

Well, that didn't clear much up.

If my parsing of this line is correct, if the 1-Shot Privacy Curtain holder receives the bomb once, then just holds onto it, it will NOT explode and no one will die.

So...we should just do that, right?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2014, 10:20:04 pm »

So what's the procedure for the pseudo-lynch? Get someone to L-1, then have someone "hammer", then everyone switches to no-lynch?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2014, 10:21:15 pm »

If the person with the privacy curtain has the bomb and opts to let it explode, they will die.  If they opt to hold on to it and have a random person chosen from all the targets that night, they are not included in that pool unless they have been targeted twice.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2014, 10:22:07 pm »

Alright... I get the premise and I think I am ok with it.

But I don't like the idea of "volunteers" that is just silly to me. Like self-voting. It serves no purpose and only makes me suspicious of PPS and ashersky. If you are town then stay alive!

And I do think we should use this method in-lieu of lynching. We pick someone that we would lynch. We then no-lynch instead. After that we play hot potato with everyone reverting the hot potato back to said player until that player dies (I am not sure if said player should just hold onto it... need to think about that, cause I know that I as town would have a hard time sacrificing myself when the bomb could be sent back to mafia) and if when day breaks and a mafia player didn't die via the bomb nor did the intended player from the previous day we actually lynch that player (after coming to a consensus on who we would want to pseudo-lynch the next night with the hot potato).

I like this because it basically allows for potentially mislynched players to hand off their PRs before dying. That is always the fear with a mislynch yes? That we will take down a PR. Well this way the player, if town, that is targeted, hands off their PR abilities to someone else and then dies instead of taking the PR with them to the grave.

So basically we need to scum hunt. Try and find scum and only if we are extremely confident about it do we actually lynch them. If we are unsure (which we are in mafia about 80% of the time despite how sure people pretend to be) then we hot potato them that night)

Just because you aren't the "sacrifice myself for the greater good" type doesn't mean those of us that are should be considered scummy.  I've espoused the self-sacrifice on behalf of town argument since Masons and Monks, at least.

It's like taking an anti-town power to the grave without using it, just on a larger scale.  If you have a useless role, like messenger in this setup, no reason you shouldn't volunteer to take the hit over someone who may be more useful.

Now, it seems like there are alternatives, like just having someone who has bandages claim and accept the bomb to keep it from blowing up.  Or a defuser could claim and defuse.  Remember, mafia can't kill anyone if they can't use the potato, until they blow up the primed players, which they'll wait to do until at least N2 (to take out 1 player) or N3 (to take out 2).  But that still leaves us way ahead on NKs if we just claim and defuse.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2014, 10:23:00 pm »

If the person with the privacy curtain has the bomb and opts to let it explode, they will die.  If they opt to hold on to it and have a random person chosen from all the targets that night, they are not included in that pool unless they have been targeted twice.

That makes way more sense, thanks.

So that's out.  I still think the Defuser could claim and just defuse the dang thing.  Mafia can't kill them until they blow their fuse, and the earlier they do that, the better for town, so it's worth losing a Defuser.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #84 on: May 21, 2014, 10:23:39 pm »

So what's the procedure for the pseudo-lynch? Get someone to L-1, then have someone "hammer", then everyone switches to no-lynch?

Basically, yeah.  A real hammer vote would be indicting of scum.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #85 on: May 21, 2014, 10:24:34 pm »

So what's the procedure for the pseudo-lynch? Get someone to L-1, then have someone "hammer", then everyone switches to no-lynch?

I would suggest <b>vote: ADK</b> or v: ADK or something like that to prevent derp-hammers, we will have to do our own vote counts as we can't expect the mod to count these pseudo-votes, but that shouldn't be a problem...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #86 on: May 21, 2014, 10:30:43 pm »

Alright... I get the premise and I think I am ok with it.

But I don't like the idea of "volunteers" that is just silly to me. Like self-voting. It serves no purpose and only makes me suspicious of PPS and ashersky. If you are town then stay alive!

And I do think we should use this method in-lieu of lynching. We pick someone that we would lynch. We then no-lynch instead. After that we play hot potato with everyone reverting the hot potato back to said player until that player dies (I am not sure if said player should just hold onto it... need to think about that, cause I know that I as town would have a hard time sacrificing myself when the bomb could be sent back to mafia) and if when day breaks and a mafia player didn't die via the bomb nor did the intended player from the previous day we actually lynch that player (after coming to a consensus on who we would want to pseudo-lynch the next night with the hot potato).

I like this because it basically allows for potentially mislynched players to hand off their PRs before dying. That is always the fear with a mislynch yes? That we will take down a PR. Well this way the player, if town, that is targeted, hands off their PR abilities to someone else and then dies instead of taking the PR with them to the grave.

So basically we need to scum hunt. Try and find scum and only if we are extremely confident about it do we actually lynch them. If we are unsure (which we are in mafia about 80% of the time despite how sure people pretend to be) then we hot potato them that night)

Just because you aren't the "sacrifice myself for the greater good" type doesn't mean those of us that are should be considered scummy.  I've espoused the self-sacrifice on behalf of town argument since Masons and Monks, at least.

It's like taking an anti-town power to the grave without using it, just on a larger scale.  If you have a useless role, like messenger in this setup, no reason you shouldn't volunteer to take the hit over someone who may be more useful.

No I get the sacrifice self for the greater good... you should know better than that. What I am saying at this point is that the sacrifice here isn't for the greater good because it negates the opportunity to gain the knowledge of interactions and wagon analysis that is so necessary to ultimately scum hunt and win games. That is the real reason I hate self-voting. It provides one less data point if that person gets lynched for us to analyze... one less person committing to a vote is needed.

And right now I think everyone is pretty much equal in terms of powers, except for chairs, so I don't see either your or PPS as having antitown PRs or VT because we are all pretty equal right now.

So yeah, I see you two as scummy because the self-sacrifice angle as been used as scum to get town points and right now I believe it isn't necessary to self-sacrifice and is somewhat more likely to be a ploy to get townie points than it is a sincere effort to help town. You are both good enough players that I think that if you are town you should both try to stay alive and let town as a whole--with your help--decide who gets hot potatoed... and remember the person hot potatoed has an opportunity to jettison their PR stuff so really everyone is equal this game in terms of that.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #87 on: May 21, 2014, 10:41:37 pm »

I think someone with 2 pieces of paper is worth less (to the game) than someone with 2 pieces of bandages.  I think that's a calculation we can make.

Plus, as you point out, the paper person can send the paper out to people before they die.

But we ought to have everyone post and talk before we finalize who dies tonight, anyway.  And sure, mafia can "act" like they are willing to die for cred, but that backfires if they actually have to die.  But the opposite, refusing to die as town, only earns you scum points, and who wants those?

So I'd say the people who are resistant to the plan are scummier than those who get it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #88 on: May 22, 2014, 12:11:02 am »

How about this:

No one ever pass the bomb. When you recieve it, choose to have it blow up a random past recipient. That's much better than just sacrificing yourself.



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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #89 on: May 22, 2014, 12:12:50 am »

hey. I like ash's plan, and don't (yet) see a huge way it could backfire.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #90 on: May 22, 2014, 12:14:42 am »

How about this:

No one ever pass the bomb. When you recieve it, choose to have it blow up a random past recipient. That's much better than just sacrificing yourself.
Er, I guess it wouldn't blow up if it goes back to the original sender and no one dies. But it would still be more effective than just blowing it up on yourself.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #91 on: May 22, 2014, 05:39:20 am »

I will discuss the details of ashersky's plan later on. For now, I have a plan of my own.

We need to coordinate item sendings to our best interest. This is how I think it can be done:

chairs, our IC, chooses one other player. The rest of the the players are divided into two groups of roughly the same size: A and B. All players in group A send their item to chairs, all players in group B send their items to the player chosen by chairs. At the start of the following day, chairs and the other player can reveal how many items they have received.

Advantages:

- Scum are in a dilemma here. Either, they can obey and send their item away. That will mean that they can't construct stuff. Or they send their items to themselves, but then we will know in which group we have how many mafia, which will lead to deadly POE later on.
- The IC and our top town read get the items, which means they perform our night actions, which means night action results can be trusted.
- From the N1 sendings, the IC knows what kind of item remain to the players who sent an item.

Dangers:

- greatest threat is the Embezzler power scum can get. They could just snap all the items sent to chairs. BUt for that, they need to get 4 magnifying glasses first, so unless scum have all magnifying glasses, it won't happen N1.
- another danger is that we might choose a mafia member as player two. But I think that risk is slim; it's hard to figure out who scum is on D1, but it's way easier to find someone who is town.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #92 on: May 22, 2014, 05:41:45 am »

Also ALSO!  We could even no lynch on occasion to use the plan.  Slows the mislynches down by just having voluntary NK deaths.

I think no lynch is expectionally bad here. This is one of the few occasions where we actually want the game to end quickly, because more days means more primed players means we're getting closer to a point where mafia can just blow us all up and win.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #93 on: May 22, 2014, 05:43:59 am »

The plan does eliminate the possibility that mafia could be killed by the hot potato bomb, too. But maybe that was a low possibility anyway?

The probability for that is almost zero. If any mafia member ever receives the potato, they will just send it to the original recipient, and barring extraordinary circumstances, they will die.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #94 on: May 22, 2014, 05:45:42 am »

Of course, in the scenario where this is scum!ash proposing this plan, then it's just mafia trying to take back control of the semi-random nightkill, because ash is easily charismatic enough to control discussion of who gets picked for it.

I'll die first if that helps.

You do realize that, if we follow your plan, what you did here is self-vote?

Vote: ashersky
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faust

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2014, 05:48:17 am »

There's also the potato powers.  Subterfuge doesn't affect the plan, but bounce does.  So does Privacy Curtain.  So we'd need town to NOT make these items.

Scumslip? Bounce is a mafia-only power.

On another note, I think our IC should most definitely make a privacy curtain. But yeah, noone else probably.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #96 on: May 22, 2014, 05:50:45 am »

But the bomb blows up automatically if it's sent to the same person twice, which could happen to mafia (though very unlikely). I agree that some sort of town plan on how to handle the bomb is a good idea, and it can always be revised on a day-by-day basis. Maybe we form a chain, where everyone agrees to send it to a specific person if they get it, then we use who dies as information as to where the bomb started?

This is a good point.  The bomb explodes on second receipt OR at the end of the night.  I was thinking of the second option as the best way to control things (i.e., ashersky will die N1, whomever receives the potato tonight, target ashersky; ashersky just holds onto it until the end of the night and lets it explode).

The chain idea is nice, if someone better at that stuff can figure it out.  Like, we have 11 players alive on N1 (assuming a lynch).

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11

Whomever gets the potato first passes to the next person on the list.  The next day, if someone's alive and didn't get the potato ever, we can narrow down where it may have been tossed to in the line, but doesn't tell us who sent it.

Plus, scum can just manipulate it if the list is known.

I think controlling who dies is better than doing this chain thing just to find out the original target.
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faust

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #97 on: May 22, 2014, 05:54:49 am »

Like, if you have a privacy curtain and receive the potato once, it just doesn't explode?

Yeah, the item description says "you need to receive it 3 times for it to explode."  The item description doesn't mention what happens if the Privacy Curtain person is the last person holding the bomb.

EFHW, if the last person holding the bomb has a Privacy Curtain, can they choose to have it explode, and then the explosion is blocked by the Curtain?

"1-shot Privacy Curtain: You need to receive the bomb 3 times for it to explode and you aren’t included in randomly determined explosions unless you have been targeted twice. This is a passive power that lasts until it is used."

Well, that didn't clear much up.

If my parsing of this line is correct, if the 1-Shot Privacy Curtain holder receives the bomb once, then just holds onto it, it will NOT explode and no one will die.

So...we should just do that, right?

My understanding is the other way around. Like, the Curtain protects you from passively being killed (by receiving the bomb twice or being chosen randomly). But if you actively choose to have it explode, well, you'll die.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #98 on: May 22, 2014, 05:57:20 am »

Alright... I get the premise and I think I am ok with it.

But I don't like the idea of "volunteers" that is just silly to me. Like self-voting. It serves no purpose and only makes me suspicious of PPS and ashersky. If you are town then stay alive!

And I do think we should use this method in-lieu of lynching. We pick someone that we would lynch. We then no-lynch instead. After that we play hot potato with everyone reverting the hot potato back to said player until that player dies (I am not sure if said player should just hold onto it... need to think about that, cause I know that I as town would have a hard time sacrificing myself when the bomb could be sent back to mafia) and if when day breaks and a mafia player didn't die via the bomb nor did the intended player from the previous day we actually lynch that player (after coming to a consensus on who we would want to pseudo-lynch the next night with the hot potato).

I like this because it basically allows for potentially mislynched players to hand off their PRs before dying. That is always the fear with a mislynch yes? That we will take down a PR. Well this way the player, if town, that is targeted, hands off their PR abilities to someone else and then dies instead of taking the PR with them to the grave.

So basically we need to scum hunt. Try and find scum and only if we are extremely confident about it do we actually lynch them. If we are unsure (which we are in mafia about 80% of the time despite how sure people pretend to be) then we hot potato them that night)

Just because you aren't the "sacrifice myself for the greater good" type doesn't mean those of us that are should be considered scummy.  I've espoused the self-sacrifice on behalf of town argument since Masons and Monks, at least.

It's like taking an anti-town power to the grave without using it, just on a larger scale.  If you have a useless role, like messenger in this setup, no reason you shouldn't volunteer to take the hit over someone who may be more useful.

No I get the sacrifice self for the greater good... you should know better than that. What I am saying at this point is that the sacrifice here isn't for the greater good because it negates the opportunity to gain the knowledge of interactions and wagon analysis that is so necessary to ultimately scum hunt and win games. That is the real reason I hate self-voting. It provides one less data point if that person gets lynched for us to analyze... one less person committing to a vote is needed.

And right now I think everyone is pretty much equal in terms of powers, except for chairs, so I don't see either your or PPS as having antitown PRs or VT because we are all pretty equal right now.

So yeah, I see you two as scummy because the self-sacrifice angle as been used as scum to get town points and right now I believe it isn't necessary to self-sacrifice and is somewhat more likely to be a ploy to get townie points than it is a sincere effort to help town. You are both good enough players that I think that if you are town you should both try to stay alive and let town as a whole--with your help--decide who gets hot potatoed... and remember the person hot potatoed has an opportunity to jettison their PR stuff so really everyone is equal this game in terms of that.

I agree with this.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #99 on: May 22, 2014, 05:59:37 am »

How about this:

No one ever pass the bomb. When you recieve it, choose to have it blow up a random past recipient. That's much better than just sacrificing yourself.
Er, I guess it wouldn't blow up if it goes back to the original sender and no one dies. But it would still be more effective than just blowing it up on yourself.

I don't understand. If noone ever passes the bomb, and you choose to let it blow up a random recipient, wouldn't it just blow you up, as you're the only recipient?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #100 on: May 22, 2014, 06:01:34 am »

Summary of the start of this game: We should do ashersky's plan. But I have a scum read on ashersky for A) pseudo-self-voting B) figuring out this plan, but not the (much more powerful, IMO) thing I found out. I don't believe ashersky doesn't see how awesomely we can utilize the IC here.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #101 on: May 22, 2014, 06:05:34 am »

There's also the potato powers.  Subterfuge doesn't affect the plan, but bounce does.  So does Privacy Curtain.  So we'd need town to NOT make these items.

Scumslip? Bounce is a mafia-only power.

On another note, I think our IC should most definitely make a privacy curtain. But yeah, noone else probably.

vote: faust

Go look at the table dude.  4 bandages = town bounce.

You know who thinks it's just a mafia power?  The mafia guy who knows he can make it tonight.  I'd guess Faust and a partner have mag glasses And bandages.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #102 on: May 22, 2014, 06:12:17 am »

There's also the potato powers.  Subterfuge doesn't affect the plan, but bounce does.  So does Privacy Curtain.  So we'd need town to NOT make these items.

Scumslip? Bounce is a mafia-only power.

On another note, I think our IC should most definitely make a privacy curtain. But yeah, noone else probably.

vote: faust

Go look at the table dude.  4 bandages = town bounce.

You know who thinks it's just a mafia power?  The mafia guy who knows he can make it tonight.  I'd guess Faust and a partner have mag glasses And bandages.

Huh, you're right. Guess I didn't see the second entry in the table. I thought each power would be differently named. You voting me is weakly reasoned and OMGUS.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #103 on: May 22, 2014, 06:22:35 am »

There's also the potato powers.  Subterfuge doesn't affect the plan, but bounce does.  So does Privacy Curtain.  So we'd need town to NOT make these items.

Scumslip? Bounce is a mafia-only power.

On another note, I think our IC should most definitely make a privacy curtain. But yeah, noone else probably.

vote: faust

Go look at the table dude.  4 bandages = town bounce.

You know who thinks it's just a mafia power?  The mafia guy who knows he can make it tonight.  I'd guess Faust and a partner have mag glasses And bandages.

Huh, you're right. Guess I didn't see the second entry in the table. I thought each power would be differently named. You voting me is weakly reasoned and OMGUS.

My reasoning is weak? This from the guy who accused me of a scum slip?  Who thought I got a power name wrong as scum?  That's such STRONG reasoning there.

Your thought process went there immediately because you are too fully aware of your own inventions.

Lynch me if you want, but lynch Faust next.  He is scum.  This is a straight up scum tell.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #104 on: May 22, 2014, 06:34:51 am »

There's also the potato powers.  Subterfuge doesn't affect the plan, but bounce does.  So does Privacy Curtain.  So we'd need town to NOT make these items.

Scumslip? Bounce is a mafia-only power.

On another note, I think our IC should most definitely make a privacy curtain. But yeah, noone else probably.

vote: faust

Go look at the table dude.  4 bandages = town bounce.

You know who thinks it's just a mafia power?  The mafia guy who knows he can make it tonight.  I'd guess Faust and a partner have mag glasses And bandages.

Huh, you're right. Guess I didn't see the second entry in the table. I thought each power would be differently named. You voting me is weakly reasoned and OMGUS.

My reasoning is weak? This from the guy who accused me of a scum slip?  Who thought I got a power name wrong as scum?  That's such STRONG reasoning there.

Your thought process went there immediately because you are too fully aware of your own inventions.

Lynch me if you want, but lynch Faust next.  He is scum.  This is a straight up scum tell.

Ahh, this feels like old times :)

I didn't vote you for the "scumslip". I was only semi-serious in this post. You're twisting my words to make me appear scummy. I voted you for the (pseudo-)self-vote, and for not having a good enough plan.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #105 on: May 22, 2014, 07:02:00 am »

There's also the potato powers.  Subterfuge doesn't affect the plan, but bounce does.  So does Privacy Curtain.  So we'd need town to NOT make these items.

Scumslip? Bounce is a mafia-only power.

On another note, I think our IC should most definitely make a privacy curtain. But yeah, noone else probably.

vote: faust

Go look at the table dude.  4 bandages = town bounce.

You know who thinks it's just a mafia power?  The mafia guy who knows he can make it tonight.  I'd guess Faust and a partner have mag glasses And bandages.

Vote: faust
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #106 on: May 22, 2014, 07:12:06 am »

I support trying to control the potato bomb somehow.

I am against no-lynching. We should use the chances we get to try kill mafia.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #107 on: May 22, 2014, 07:26:42 am »

I like the plan of using the bomb as a pseudo-lynch, but I think we should also lynch on day one in addition. Getting in 2-3 town controlled kills before the mafia gets a proper NK is what we want. Which means we probably need to set up a deadline for choosing the bomb recipient so we have time for a lynch after.

I like faust's item plan, and it's by far the best idea I've seen so far of what the hell we do with the items. 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #108 on: May 22, 2014, 09:28:06 am »

I am confused.

I volunteer to be the first NK. So, how, exactly, do we make scum NK me?

Scum has to throw out the potato to someone.  Whomever receive it throws it to you.  You just hold it, and let it explode at the end of the night.  That's it.

The only way I see that scum can manipulate this is to not throw out the potato at all.  But then, hey, no night kill and at worst a mislynch of the volunteer the next day.

I still need to catch up with everything, but I think this might be a problem.

Mafia can psuedo-kill every night with the "primer". If they choose to no-kill with the potato, they can just primer everyone up, and no one dies.  If we don't lynch it's even worse, because we have no chance of hitting the detonator guy.  Finally they can explode a bunch of people at once.  And I think we need to hit two detonator guys.. the detonator and his backup.

Okay if there's no kills at all that would take a really long time, but we're still guaranteed to lose.  If we lynch every day, then, uh.. we still only have four? days. (Worst case of mislynches, Day 1 9T-> Day 2 8T->Day 3 7T-> Night 3 detonate 3 -> lylo situation day 4.  That's the worst case because we could lynch someone that was primed.)  Well we probably only have four days anyway, but because the "primer" kill isn't a real kill, we don't get any information from a flip and we can't PoE.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #109 on: May 22, 2014, 09:36:48 am »

I am confused.

I volunteer to be the first NK. So, how, exactly, do we make scum NK me?

Scum has to throw out the potato to someone.  Whomever receive it throws it to you.  You just hold it, and let it explode at the end of the night.  That's it.

The only way I see that scum can manipulate this is to not throw out the potato at all.  But then, hey, no night kill and at worst a mislynch of the volunteer the next day.

I still need to catch up with everything, but I think this might be a problem.

Mafia can psuedo-kill every night with the "primer". If they choose to no-kill with the potato, they can just primer everyone up, and no one dies.  If we don't lynch it's even worse, because we have no chance of hitting the detonator guy.  Finally they can explode a bunch of people at once.  And I think we need to hit two detonator guys.. the detonator and his backup.

Okay if there's no kills at all that would take a really long time, but we're still guaranteed to lose.  If we lynch every day, then, uh.. we still only have four? days. (Worst case of mislynches, Day 1 9T-> Day 2 8T->Day 3 7T-> Night 3 detonate 3 -> lylo situation day 4.  That's the worst case because we could lynch someone that was primed.)  Well we probably only have four days anyway, but because the "primer" kill isn't a real kill, we don't get any information from a flip and we can't PoE.

That would basically be the situation in a regular mafia game, though. We get three lynches, scum gets three kills, it's lylo (if we mislynch all three times). Only this way, we make our lynches before any of the night kills. We get less information from flips, but more town players stay alive longer to influence the lynches, and town can make more use of the items (especially since the IC stays alive to day three and we can give stuff to him). Hell, I hope mafia does that, it gives us time to make our IC fireproof.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #110 on: May 22, 2014, 09:38:49 am »

snip

Also if mafia doesn't use the bomb they only get two kills by night three, they don't get to prime a person on the night they start the fire.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #111 on: May 22, 2014, 09:51:08 am »

Vote: faust

Vote: ADK

Vote: faust
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #112 on: May 22, 2014, 10:01:54 am »

I am confused.

I volunteer to be the first NK. So, how, exactly, do we make scum NK me?

Scum has to throw out the potato to someone.  Whomever receive it throws it to you.  You just hold it, and let it explode at the end of the night.  That's it.

The only way I see that scum can manipulate this is to not throw out the potato at all.  But then, hey, no night kill and at worst a mislynch of the volunteer the next day.

I still need to catch up with everything, but I think this might be a problem.

Mafia can psuedo-kill every night with the "primer". If they choose to no-kill with the potato, they can just primer everyone up, and no one dies.  If we don't lynch it's even worse, because we have no chance of hitting the detonator guy.  Finally they can explode a bunch of people at once.  And I think we need to hit two detonator guys.. the detonator and his backup.

Okay if there's no kills at all that would take a really long time, but we're still guaranteed to lose.  If we lynch every day, then, uh.. we still only have four? days. (Worst case of mislynches, Day 1 9T-> Day 2 8T->Day 3 7T-> Night 3 detonate 3 -> lylo situation day 4.  That's the worst case because we could lynch someone that was primed.)  Well we probably only have four days anyway, but because the "primer" kill isn't a real kill, we don't get any information from a flip and we can't PoE.

That would basically be the situation in a regular mafia game, though. We get three lynches, scum gets three kills, it's lylo (if we mislynch all three times). Only this way, we make our lynches before any of the night kills. We get less information from flips, but more town players stay alive longer to influence the lynches, and town can make more use of the items (especially since the IC stays alive to day three and we can give stuff to him). Hell, I hope mafia does that, it gives us time to make our IC fireproof.

Right, my main concern was with us losing the flip information compared to regular Mafia.  I think you're right here.  However, fireproof only protects against priming, right?  If someone gets primed, and then fireproofed, and the exploded, they still die?  So we need to get fireproofs out early.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #113 on: May 22, 2014, 10:11:23 am »

Right, my main concern was with us losing the flip information compared to regular Mafia.  I think you're right here.  However, fireproof only protects against priming, right?  If someone gets primed, and then fireproofed, and the exploded, they still die?  So we need to get fireproofs out early.

I'm not sure about this, I though fireproof protected against previous priming. Can mod confirm?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #114 on: May 22, 2014, 10:26:15 am »

Right, my main concern was with us losing the flip information compared to regular Mafia.  I think you're right here.  However, fireproof only protects against priming, right?  If someone gets primed, and then fireproofed, and the exploded, they still die?  So we need to get fireproofs out early.

I'm not sure about this, I though fireproof protected against previous priming. Can mod confirm?

Fireproofs only protect against priming.  Previously primed players would not be protected.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #115 on: May 22, 2014, 10:57:24 am »

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #116 on: May 22, 2014, 11:07:57 am »

Vote: faust

Vote: ADK

Vote: faust

?

Call it a vote for faust and a FOS for ADK.

I'm voting faust for the same reasons as ashersky and xeiron. I think ADK's reaction to faust getting this kind of attention looks like a possible partner.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #117 on: May 22, 2014, 11:16:58 am »

Vote: pps

Calling scum partners this early in Day 1?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #118 on: May 22, 2014, 11:26:41 am »

Vote: pps

Calling scum partners this early in Day 1?

FOS on Jimmmmm for jumping to logical extremes. Obviously the maneuver was not meant to claim partners but to elucidate motives and to elicit a response form ADK. That you moved so quickly and harshly isn't outside your meta but it doesn't speak well of your alignment, either.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #119 on: May 22, 2014, 11:30:02 am »

Vote: pps

Calling scum partners this early in Day 1?

FOS on Jimmmmm for jumping to logical extremes. Obviously the maneuver was not meant to claim partners but to elucidate motives and to elicit a response form ADK. That you moved so quickly and harshly isn't outside your meta but it doesn't speak well of your alignment, either.

But I like jumping to logical extremes!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #120 on: May 22, 2014, 11:36:25 am »

Vote: faust

Vote: ADK

Vote: faust

?

Call it a vote for faust and a FOS for ADK.

I'm voting faust for the same reasons as ashersky and xeiron. I think ADK's reaction to faust getting this kind of attention looks like a possible partner.

Could you please state these reasons explicitly?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #121 on: May 22, 2014, 11:38:45 am »

My reasoning is weak? This from the guy who accused me of a scum slip?  Who thought I got a power name wrong as scum?  That's such STRONG reasoning there.

Your thought process went there immediately because you are too fully aware of your own inventions.

Lynch me if you want, but lynch Faust next.  He is scum.  This is a straight up scum tell.

It's amazing how you manage to say scumslips aren't a thing and say I'm scum because of a scumslip, all in one post.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #122 on: May 22, 2014, 12:09:40 pm »

Right, my main concern was with us losing the flip information compared to regular Mafia.  I think you're right here.  However, fireproof only protects against priming, right?  If someone gets primed, and then fireproofed, and the exploded, they still die?  So we need to get fireproofs out early.

I'm not sure about this, I though fireproof protected against previous priming. Can mod confirm?

Fireproofs only protect against priming.  Previously primed players would not be protected.

Okay, so if we're using the controlled bomb method, we want to fireproof the IC tonight?  From the resolution post, "Protect: Stealth, Firefighter" executes before "Prime/Ignite/Accelerant".  Sending items happens before all that.

Can Firefighter target themselves with protection?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #123 on: May 22, 2014, 12:14:39 pm »

I guess that should be bolded as a mod question

Can Firefighter target themselves with fireproof?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #124 on: May 22, 2014, 12:17:33 pm »

Right, my main concern was with us losing the flip information compared to regular Mafia.  I think you're right here.  However, fireproof only protects against priming, right?  If someone gets primed, and then fireproofed, and the exploded, they still die?  So we need to get fireproofs out early.

I'm not sure about this, I though fireproof protected against previous priming. Can mod confirm?

Fireproofs only protect against priming.  Previously primed players would not be protected.

Okay, so if we're using the controlled bomb method, we want to fireproof the IC tonight?  From the resolution post, "Protect: Stealth, Firefighter" executes before "Prime/Ignite/Accelerant".  Sending items happens before all that.

Can Firefighter target themselves with protection?

If I'm reading everything properly, I think it's not possible to protect me from being primed tonight, sadly.

Somebody definitely double-check that for me, though.

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #125 on: May 22, 2014, 12:21:33 pm »

Right, my main concern was with us losing the flip information compared to regular Mafia.  I think you're right here.  However, fireproof only protects against priming, right?  If someone gets primed, and then fireproofed, and the exploded, they still die?  So we need to get fireproofs out early.

I'm not sure about this, I though fireproof protected against previous priming. Can mod confirm?

Fireproofs only protect against priming.  Previously primed players would not be protected.

Okay, so if we're using the controlled bomb method, we want to fireproof the IC tonight?  From the resolution post, "Protect: Stealth, Firefighter" executes before "Prime/Ignite/Accelerant".  Sending items happens before all that.

Can Firefighter target themselves with protection?

If I'm reading everything properly, I think it's not possible to protect me from being primed tonight, sadly.

Somebody definitely double-check that for me, though.

Why not?  If you can do it yourself, we send you the items to do it.  If not, we send to someone else.  Item sending resolves at 24 hours.  Then at the 72-hour resolution, that person makes Firefighter and targets you.  It should resolve before the priming (assuming list goes from top to bottom in order resolution).
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #126 on: May 22, 2014, 12:26:52 pm »

Right, my main concern was with us losing the flip information compared to regular Mafia.  I think you're right here.  However, fireproof only protects against priming, right?  If someone gets primed, and then fireproofed, and the exploded, they still die?  So we need to get fireproofs out early.

I'm not sure about this, I though fireproof protected against previous priming. Can mod confirm?

Fireproofs only protect against priming.  Previously primed players would not be protected.

Okay, so if we're using the controlled bomb method, we want to fireproof the IC tonight?  From the resolution post, "Protect: Stealth, Firefighter" executes before "Prime/Ignite/Accelerant".  Sending items happens before all that.

Can Firefighter target themselves with protection?

If I'm reading everything properly, I think it's not possible to protect me from being primed tonight, sadly.

Somebody definitely double-check that for me, though.

Why not?  If you can do it yourself, we send you the items to do it.  If not, we send to someone else.  Item sending resolves at 24 hours.  Then at the 72-hour resolution, that person makes Firefighter and targets you.  It should resolve before the priming (assuming list goes from top to bottom in order resolution).

I thought Firefighter couldn't be used the same night you made it (in other words, my understanding was that you couldn't use the fireproofing until N2).  That's why I wanted somebody to double-check my read here :)

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #127 on: May 22, 2014, 12:32:50 pm »

Did you see this somewhere?  I assumed since "make powers" was ahead of their use, you could use them that night. 

Found:

"At any time during the rest of the night up until 2 hours before deadline, each player may build and use one or more powers according to the items they possess. Players may make up to as many powers in one night as their items will allow, or make none. Powers may be used immediately or saved for later (with the exceptions of Embezzler, which must be used in the first 24 hours of night, and passive powers, which go into effect immediately). All orders end 2 hours before deadline. "

So it sounds like you make it and you can choose to use it right away or save it.  I didn't see Firefighter excluded.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #128 on: May 22, 2014, 01:00:02 pm »

Did you see this somewhere?  I assumed since "make powers" was ahead of their use, you could use them that night. 

Found:

"At any time during the rest of the night up until 2 hours before deadline, each player may build and use one or more powers according to the items they possess. Players may make up to as many powers in one night as their items will allow, or make none. Powers may be used immediately or saved for later (with the exceptions of Embezzler, which must be used in the first 24 hours of night, and passive powers, which go into effect immediately). All orders end 2 hours before deadline. "

So it sounds like you make it and you can choose to use it right away or save it.  I didn't see Firefighter excluded.

Agreed, this is why I asked somebody to check me.  I was clearly wrong (thank goodness!)

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #129 on: May 22, 2014, 01:29:07 pm »

Vote: faust

Vote: ADK

Vote: faust

?

Call it a vote for faust and a FOS for ADK.

I'm voting faust for the same reasons as ashersky and xeiron. I think ADK's reaction to faust getting this kind of attention looks like a possible partner.

Could you please state these reasons explicitly?

Your 1st post in this foray proposes an alternate plan that presupposes that we create what amounts to a 2nd IC. Getting Mafia installed into this position would be the obvious route to victory.

Some worthy Analysis follows albeit of the most obvious kind. Best to put that stuff out there to garner a Townish image.

Then you vote the guy who is actually putting down a plan that has controversial merit requiring true collaboration to refine that would provide valuable clues on alignments. That is, not one so easily manipulated as your plan which smells fresh baked from the N0 Mafia QT.

Call the guy you just voted into question with a completely baseless scumslip allegation. Also, suggest Town not do one of the easiest things they can do to curtail Mafia's ability to plop a potato explosion on them. Personally, I am not opposed to the spirit of this idea but I don't see the point in playing director, either.

Finally, I agree that Mafia doesn't need to study the table nearly as closely as Town. You flat out missed what Town could achieve but were quite aware of what Mafia could do.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #130 on: May 22, 2014, 01:29:24 pm »

So, who made something last night?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #131 on: May 22, 2014, 01:41:41 pm »

So, who made something last night?

Were we able to?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #132 on: May 22, 2014, 02:22:26 pm »

The other thing we might lose following ash's plan is the ability to analyze the path of the bomb. If we agree to have town just pass the bomb to whoever (i.e. our own scumreads) then we can have everyone claim the next day, and maybe get information on that? It probably doesn't outweigh the benefits of the plan but it's a thought.

@PPS: So what does any of that have to do with me?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #133 on: May 22, 2014, 02:41:28 pm »

@PPS: So what does any of that have to do with me?

Seemed timed too coincidentally where you say you like both plans but let's make sure to do that thing where we make sure we lynch D1 and that other thing to directly control the game.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #134 on: May 22, 2014, 03:02:57 pm »

@PPS: So what does any of that have to do with me?

Seemed timed too coincidentally where you say you like both plans but let's make sure to do that thing where we make sure we lynch D1 and that other thing to directly control the game.

Are you against lynching today in addition to controlling the bomb? Do you think faust's plan is bad? Or are you saying that I'm scummy for going along too quickly with plans that are good for town? If it's the latter, it's just that I honestly think they're good ideas and have yet to see the flaws in them.

I'm not arguing that either faust or ash is towny for suggesting these plans, ash in particular I very much buy proposing this plan as scum. I do vastly prefer treating the bomb control like a lynch rather than having one player directing it or asking for volunteers.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #135 on: May 22, 2014, 03:16:50 pm »

I think you could be playing recovery for faust. It's not that your content stinks, it's how and when it is posted.

I like ash's plan over faust's. faust's plan has a huge hole in it and he downplayed that hole which reeks. I am currently in favor of nothing proposed, I am still cogitating. I refuse to pick sides and am suspicious of these posts that suggest I must. I find it amusing that you ask polarizing questions immediately followed by absolution that you will not currently go to those extremes yourself.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #136 on: May 22, 2014, 03:22:54 pm »

I guess that should be bolded as a mod question

Can Firefighter target themselves with fireproof?

yes.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #137 on: May 22, 2014, 11:36:19 pm »

quick post, not much time. I am on this week and have a buddy in town so not a lot of time to post, but I am following the game via e-mails...

so basically I side with faust in the argument with PPS and ash and kinda find PPS's stance pretty silly... aren't you doing to ashersky what you are accusing ADK of doing to faust?

I automatically disagree with anyone who is trying to get reads based off theory talk. I am not against theory talk in this instance because I do think we can find a way to maximize our potential at night. However, saying that someone is scummy because they don't agree with a certain approach than you or because they aren't so bloody brilliant as you to realize better ways or flaws in theory is just ridiculous. Might as well just say dumb people are scummy and leave it at that...

This vein of scum hunting has been disproven time and time again and it is a waste to do so here. What is useful however, is noting that more often than not scum tries to use this form of scum hunting, so I do think it is worth analyzing who is saying "X is scummy for certain theory or reaction to theory." Will do that at a later time. People react to things different. Some players like to analyze the setup really deep. Some probably haven't even read it yet. Doesn't have a bearing on their alignment at all. Some will realize awesome way to take advantage, some will be resistant to such designs by nature and might be slow to come around or not come around at all... again, that doesn't have any bearing on alignment as shown by previous games where people of different alignments had either similar or different reactions with no bearing to alignment.

I have said this once and I will say it again, theory talk is the easiest thing to replicate a town response as scum. People will say exactly what they would say as town as scum when it comes to talking about theory.

So that is my take, I think I don't have much more to say except that I think there are few players that I want to hear more from as the only people I can remember in the game are chairs, ADK, PPS, Jimmmm, ash and faust. Who else is here?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #138 on: May 23, 2014, 12:02:54 am »

hi im here. i don't really do set up theory, so I've not found much to contribute.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #139 on: May 23, 2014, 12:18:23 am »

I'm here.  It seems like we should make sure Chairs gets Firefighter.  We need an item-giving strategy for that to work.  Faust's makes it likely that he will. (He only needs, uh, Badge and Bandage to make it, and he'd be getting 1/4 of everyone's items so the chance is good.)  We don't have to do Faust's, though, and we probably want to guarantee he gets it.  I'm open to suggestions.

When you are sent an item, are you told who sent it to you?

If we use Ash's idea in conjunction with Fireproofs, then for Chairs to get killed, a Mafia member has to sacrifice themselves. (I think.)  And Chairs can start proofing whomever he thinks he should. 

Does Firefighting stack?  That is, if I make two Firefighters, do I get 4 shots of protection to give out?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #140 on: May 23, 2014, 12:27:56 am »

There's also the Cryptographer to worry about.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #141 on: May 23, 2014, 12:46:02 am »

This will (hopefully) be my final pos regarding bomb theory. I think we should try to control the bomb, but not as an alternative to our lynch. As WW (?) pointed out: Mafia can just no-kill and prime each night that we follow ash's plan. So I think we should just hand it off to our personal top scumreads, possibly with some IC direction, and lynch as normal. Both of these ways are also a nice way to gain info.

I'm also very hesitant to give Towncred based on theory talk. In other RMM games, I usually do. But since this is pure Open, I think less can be given out. It's so easy for a Towny to overlook a piece of info when making a plan and so easy for scum to seem Towny be remember that same piece of info.

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #142 on: May 23, 2014, 02:31:48 am »

I just realized I'm in this posting soon.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #143 on: May 23, 2014, 02:46:54 am »

IC input would be super helpful.

My beliefs:

1)  We need to take control of the potato.  We can do that with my plan, a variation of my plan, or some other better plan.  Whatever it is, we need to determine that at the soonest possible juncture.

2)  We need to decide if we use the potato as our lynch instead of lynching during the day.  I think not -- the more I think about it, the actual danger of the no kill at night is that we never lynch/kill anyone and scum just primes and ignites EVERYONE.  Remember, scum can just throw the igniter under the bus to activate the backup for a second round of ignition.

3)  Actual set-up discussion/theory isn't great for scumhunting, but reactions to it can be.  The way someone reacts to a plan CAN be affected by their alignment.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #144 on: May 23, 2014, 03:29:56 am »

ashersky, do you have any opinion on the plan I proposed?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #145 on: May 23, 2014, 03:39:16 am »

I will discuss the details of ashersky's plan later on. For now, I have a plan of my own.

We need to coordinate item sendings to our best interest. This is how I think it can be done:

chairs, our IC, chooses one other player. The rest of the the players are divided into two groups of roughly the same size: A and B. All players in group A send their item to chairs, all players in group B send their items to the player chosen by chairs. At the start of the following day, chairs and the other player can reveal how many items they have received.

Advantages:

- Scum are in a dilemma here. Either, they can obey and send their item away. That will mean that they can't construct stuff. Or they send their items to themselves, but then we will know in which group we have how many mafia, which will lead to deadly POE later on.
- The IC and our top town read get the items, which means they perform our night actions, which means night action results can be trusted.
- From the N1 sendings, the IC knows what kind of item remain to the players who sent an item.

Dangers:

- greatest threat is the Embezzler power scum can get. They could just snap all the items sent to chairs. BUt for that, they need to get 4 magnifying glasses first, so unless scum have all magnifying glasses, it won't happen N1.
- another danger is that we might choose a mafia member as player two. But I think that risk is slim; it's hard to figure out who scum is on D1, but it's way easier to find someone who is town.

This one?  I'm cool with sending stuff to the IC, and I'm cool with making sure it's coordinated.

We need to be positive scum can't steal the stuff, though.  Or at least, steal the stuff that's important.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #146 on: May 23, 2014, 10:09:18 am »

IC input would be super helpful.

My beliefs:

1)  We need to take control of the potato.  We can do that with my plan, a variation of my plan, or some other better plan.  Whatever it is, we need to determine that at the soonest possible juncture.

2)  We need to decide if we use the potato as our lynch instead of lynching during the day.  I think not -- the more I think about it, the actual danger of the no kill at night is that we never lynch/kill anyone and scum just primes and ignites EVERYONE.  Remember, scum can just throw the igniter under the bus to activate the backup for a second round of ignition.

3)  Actual set-up discussion/theory isn't great for scumhunting, but reactions to it can be.  The way someone reacts to a plan CAN be affected by their alignment.

I'm hoping to be able to respond tonight with some meaningful stuff, but I agree that a potato plan seems reasonable, though I don't think it should replace our lynch.

Don't forget that there's a defuser power that negates potato explosions (right? I want to make sure I'm not misreading again, since I'm only taking quick glances) so we could potentially utilize that.

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #147 on: May 23, 2014, 10:15:38 am »

I'm here.  It seems like we should make sure Chairs gets Firefighter.  We need an item-giving strategy for that to work.  Faust's makes it likely that he will. (He only needs, uh, Badge and Bandage to make it, and he'd be getting 1/4 of everyone's items so the chance is good.)  We don't have to do Faust's, though, and we probably want to guarantee he gets it.  I'm open to suggestions.

When you are sent an item, are you told who sent it to you?

No

Quote
If we use Ash's idea in conjunction with Fireproofs, then for Chairs to get killed, a Mafia member has to sacrifice themselves. (I think.)  And Chairs can start proofing whomever he thinks he should. 

Does Firefighting stack?  That is, if I make two Firefighters, do I get 4 shots of protection to give out?

No, you would need to make one, use it, and then make another.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #148 on: May 23, 2014, 10:22:55 am »

I'm here.  It seems like we should make sure Chairs gets Firefighter.  We need an item-giving strategy for that to work.  Faust's makes it likely that he will. (He only needs, uh, Badge and Bandage to make it, and he'd be getting 1/4 of everyone's items so the chance is good.)  We don't have to do Faust's, though, and we probably want to guarantee he gets it.  I'm open to suggestions.

When you are sent an item, are you told who sent it to you?

No

Quote
If we use Ash's idea in conjunction with Fireproofs, then for Chairs to get killed, a Mafia member has to sacrifice themselves. (I think.)  And Chairs can start proofing whomever he thinks he should. 

Does Firefighting stack?  That is, if I make two Firefighters, do I get 4 shots of protection to give out?

No, you would need to make one, use it, and then make another.

This can not be done in the same night, correct?
   
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #149 on: May 23, 2014, 11:21:41 am »

I'm here.  It seems like we should make sure Chairs gets Firefighter.  We need an item-giving strategy for that to work.  Faust's makes it likely that he will. (He only needs, uh, Badge and Bandage to make it, and he'd be getting 1/4 of everyone's items so the chance is good.)  We don't have to do Faust's, though, and we probably want to guarantee he gets it.  I'm open to suggestions.

When you are sent an item, are you told who sent it to you?

No

Quote
If we use Ash's idea in conjunction with Fireproofs, then for Chairs to get killed, a Mafia member has to sacrifice themselves. (I think.)  And Chairs can start proofing whomever he thinks he should. 

Does Firefighting stack?  That is, if I make two Firefighters, do I get 4 shots of protection to give out?

No, you would need to make one, use it, and then make another.

This can not be done in the same night, correct?
 

Correct.  Making powers resolves before using them, so you cannot use a power and then make one, with the exception of powers that resolve early, which would have been made during a previous night.

Also, some clarification about timing:

Orders will not work retroactively.  This applies mostly to the hot potato.  If a bomb has already been sent, it will not be unsent.  If protections have already been used at the time an order is received, they will not be undone.  So, in order for rolestopping to prevent the sending of the bomb, the target must be submitted in the first 6 hours of the night. Similarly, subterfuge will be most effective if submitted with the initial bomb sending.  Orders with specific timing requirements can be submitted during the previous day.  Timing considerations may mean that you would not want to make and use certain powers in the same night.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 11:23:43 am by EFHW »
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #150 on: May 23, 2014, 11:31:36 am »

I will discuss the details of ashersky's plan later on. For now, I have a plan of my own.

We need to coordinate item sendings to our best interest. This is how I think it can be done:

chairs, our IC, chooses one other player. The rest of the the players are divided into two groups of roughly the same size: A and B. All players in group A send their item to chairs, all players in group B send their items to the player chosen by chairs. At the start of the following day, chairs and the other player can reveal how many items they have received.

Advantages:

- Scum are in a dilemma here. Either, they can obey and send their item away. That will mean that they can't construct stuff. Or they send their items to themselves, but then we will know in which group we have how many mafia, which will lead to deadly POE later on.
- The IC and our top town read get the items, which means they perform our night actions, which means night action results can be trusted.
- From the N1 sendings, the IC knows what kind of item remain to the players who sent an item.

Dangers:

- greatest threat is the Embezzler power scum can get. They could just snap all the items sent to chairs. BUt for that, they need to get 4 magnifying glasses first, so unless scum have all magnifying glasses, it won't happen N1.
- another danger is that we might choose a mafia member as player two. But I think that risk is slim; it's hard to figure out who scum is on D1, but it's way easier to find someone who is town.

I like this plan. At least for D1. Maybe also D2. The Embezzler power might be a too large threat later.
The big risk is of course choosing a mafia-member as player two. But that is a chance I think we should take.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #151 on: May 23, 2014, 11:42:22 am »

I will discuss the details of ashersky's plan later on. For now, I have a plan of my own.

We need to coordinate item sendings to our best interest. This is how I think it can be done:

chairs, our IC, chooses one other player. The rest of the the players are divided into two groups of roughly the same size: A and B. All players in group A send their item to chairs, all players in group B send their items to the player chosen by chairs. At the start of the following day, chairs and the other player can reveal how many items they have received.

Advantages:

- Scum are in a dilemma here. Either, they can obey and send their item away. That will mean that they can't construct stuff. Or they send their items to themselves, but then we will know in which group we have how many mafia, which will lead to deadly POE later on.
- The IC and our top town read get the items, which means they perform our night actions, which means night action results can be trusted.
- From the N1 sendings, the IC knows what kind of item remain to the players who sent an item.

Dangers:

- greatest threat is the Embezzler power scum can get. They could just snap all the items sent to chairs. BUt for that, they need to get 4 magnifying glasses first, so unless scum have all magnifying glasses, it won't happen N1.
- another danger is that we might choose a mafia member as player two. But I think that risk is slim; it's hard to figure out who scum is on D1, but it's way easier to find someone who is town.

I like this plan. At least for D1. Maybe also D2. The Embezzler power might be a too large threat later.
The big risk is of course choosing a mafia-member as player two. But that is a chance I think we should take.

This is a good point. Embezzling is impossible Night 1.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #152 on: May 23, 2014, 12:07:07 pm »

So, the mafia have 2 NK mechanisms, right?  There's priming and hoping the detonator guy doesn't die, and then there's the hot potato.

Town controls the Mafia's nightly NK.  We should determine, every day, who will die that night.  Anyone who refuses to be the night kill is scum.

Remember, per the open setup, we're all just VTs with two identical, useless items.  Like, two pieces of paper is crap.  No town member should have objections to dying at night.

Basically, we can all decide/vote on who should be the NK.  If they protest too much, SCUM and we lynch them.  If they don't protest, but DON'T die, SCUM and we lynch them the next day (because that means mafia chose NOT to send the potato out, or that person received the potato and passed it).

Remember, the person holding the potato has the power to hold onto it and die.  We choose who dies, mafia gives them the potato, they die.  We are taking power away from mafia, controlling who we lose each night.  We also force mafia into positions they don't like with the daily NK discussion.

They'll be caught during the day if they fight, caught at night if they don't die.

--CAVEAT:  Mafia can no kill on purpose to frame a towny for not dying.  That's still an awfully slow way to get your NKs through, so I'm not worried about it.

After thinking about it, I think Asherskys original plan to contoll the potato bomb is the best one.
-During the day, we vote for who to be potato killed, as well as who to be lynched.
-During the night, everyone who recieves the the potato bomb should pass it to the player agreed on.
-That player should keep the bomb, and let it exploded.


Mafia can counter this in two ways.
1. Choose not to send out the potato at all. This is fine, as we have one less kill to worry about.
2. If we decide on bombing a mafia player, they can fix it so that another player dies instead.
Examle: Town have decided to bomb player A (who happends to be mafia). Mafia player starts by sending the potato to town player C (A player they would like to kill, like the IC) Player C sends the potato to A, and A sends it back to C. This is not that bad for town, as we now know that Player A is mafia. (Because of this, The IC and others should consider making a Privacy Curtain.)

It is important that the player to be bombed holds on to the bomb, instead of passing it to whoever they think are scum. If they follow that rule, the example above may never happend when A is town.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #153 on: May 23, 2014, 01:29:38 pm »

The big risk is of course choosing a mafia-member as player two. But that is a chance I think we should take.

Mafia agrees strongly...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #154 on: May 23, 2014, 01:31:11 pm »

I think that we need to lynch, because more info after d1 the better, and mafia may not send the bomb.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #155 on: May 23, 2014, 01:53:34 pm »

The big risk is of course choosing a mafia-member as player two. But that is a chance I think we should take.

Mafia agrees strongly...

...Just as mafia strongly agrees on any lynch on a town player.

This is pretty much a reverse lynch. We pick a person we think is town and gives them immortality (It will be hard for scum to kill someone with fireproof and privacy curtain.)
 
In the end, our ability to guess who is mafia, and who is town is what decides if we win or lose games.

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #156 on: May 23, 2014, 02:21:27 pm »

This arbitrarily choose another IC strategy should be reserved for later in the game when we have some actual reads to work with. To do it D1 is careless.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #157 on: May 23, 2014, 02:41:48 pm »

This arbitrarily choose another IC strategy should be reserved for later in the game when we have some actual reads to work with. To do it D1 is careless.

But the item-trading strategy (and likely any other) is better earlier than later.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #158 on: May 23, 2014, 03:07:31 pm »

All Mafia has to do is kill the IC and the item trading plan completely fails. It is too fragile.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #159 on: May 23, 2014, 03:41:46 pm »

All Mafia has to do is kill the IC and the item trading plan completely fails. It is too fragile.

How?

Remember mafia has no standrad NK.

The IC should get enough items to protect himself against both priming and the potato bomb.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #160 on: May 23, 2014, 03:42:41 pm »

All Mafia has to do is kill the IC and the item trading plan completely fails. It is too fragile.

But IC can make things tonight and protect himself.  Unless role blocking.  Or rolestopping .  can't check what makes those right now.

PPE: Xeiron making same point I think.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #161 on: May 23, 2014, 03:54:49 pm »

This arbitrarily choose another IC strategy should be reserved for later in the game when we have some actual reads to work with. To do it D1 is careless.

It must be D1, because we only want to coordinate item sending before mafia can get the 'Embezzler'-power.
We do not want to risk mafia stealing 6 items at a time.

Besides, it is a point to let the ICs get fireproof before the mafia can prime them.

IC is probably not the right word, though. Town Leader is better. The second person is not confirmed town, and we can always lynch him later if he turns out not to be so towny after all.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #162 on: May 23, 2014, 04:47:05 pm »

So it must be D1 that we elect the Towniest of them all who is not thus mod-confirmed.
I nominate myself.
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chairs

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #163 on: May 23, 2014, 04:54:53 pm »

So it must be D1 that we elect the Towniest of them all who is not thus mod-confirmed.

Correct.

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #164 on: May 23, 2014, 05:02:40 pm »

So it must be D1 that we elect the Towniest of them all who is not thus mod-confirmed.

Correct.

Do you second the nomination?
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chairs

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #165 on: May 23, 2014, 05:11:40 pm »

So it must be D1 that we elect the Towniest of them all who is not thus mod-confirmed.

Correct.

Do you second the nomination?

I'm not seconding any nominations as I'm still very limited access.

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #166 on: May 23, 2014, 08:38:49 pm »

So it must be D1 that we elect the Towniest of them all who is not thus mod-confirmed.
I nominate myself.

I protest this. You would be the last person I would nominate at this point... given you are my strongest scum read
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #167 on: May 23, 2014, 08:43:06 pm »

Also... multiple people have stated that we should both lynch and coordinate the NK. It appears that the reasoning behind this is to mitigate mafia's ability to prime and such...

I get that reasoning, but nearly every game I have been a part of in the past when there were many kills fast town lost. I think in general town does better the longer the game goes on. Now more specifically to this game, I get that we want to mitigate mafia's powers, but it appears that everyone is forgetting we have powers of our own. Everyone seems to be focusing on the protective abilities, but there are investigative abilities as well. The longer the game last the more these powers can be created/used and the more likely it is that they will be used to find scum. Rushing through the game just shooting at random I don't think spells a chance of success. I think we should take our time like normal and try to maximize TOWN's powers.

Play offensively with our powers rather than play defensively trying to lessen mafia's should be how we play. Otherwise I think we are dooming ourselves to what will probably be a fast and painful loss for town...

That said, I won't be participating in the hot potato shenanigans if we go through with a lynch. I would much prefer no-lynching and then controlling the hot potato so let's just do that instead ok...?
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #168 on: May 23, 2014, 08:49:34 pm »

Also... multiple people have stated that we should both lynch and coordinate the NK. It appears that the reasoning behind this is to mitigate mafia's ability to prime and such...

I get that reasoning, but nearly every game I have been a part of in the past when there were many kills fast town lost. I think in general town does better the longer the game goes on. Now more specifically to this game, I get that we want to mitigate mafia's powers, but it appears that everyone is forgetting we have powers of our own. Everyone seems to be focusing on the protective abilities, but there are investigative abilities as well. The longer the game last the more these powers can be created/used and the more likely it is that they will be used to find scum. Rushing through the game just shooting at random I don't think spells a chance of success. I think we should take our time like normal and try to maximize TOWN's powers.

Play offensively with our powers rather than play defensively trying to lessen mafia's should be how we play. Otherwise I think we are dooming ourselves to what will probably be a fast and painful loss for town...

That said, I won't be participating in the hot potato shenanigans if we go through with a lynch. I would much prefer no-lynching and then controlling the hot potato so let's just do that instead ok...?

What's your stance on the "Mafia doesn't do any kills and just primes everyone" issue with no lynching?
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #169 on: May 23, 2014, 09:02:24 pm »

If they don't kill then we lynch the person that should have died during the night from the potato...

I have no problem with mafia choosing to not use one of their night kills. Priming, if I understand it correctly, basically allows them to prime someone (but not kill) the first night. From then on they can either ignite and kill or continue priming.

So basically if they choose to go this route as their only method of killing then they are basically forfeiting their first night kill and have one less in the game at least (or more if they go through more then one prime-ignition cycles)...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #170 on: May 23, 2014, 09:10:53 pm »

Actually, Yuma, if we go with Ash's hot potato strategy using a no-lynch, would we still no-lynch when someone doesn't die, or do we lynch that person?  In the latter case, Mafia doesn't need to send bomb at all, which can be tracked, blocked, etc., and just let our lynch take care of their night kill.

Though maybe that's still better.  That would be like regular Mafia where we choose no-lynch every day, except we vote on who the Mafia's night-kill is.  Which was Ash's point in the first place.

In the case when we always no-lynch regardless, then... if Mafia never sends potato and just primes people.. they prime and build items.. we build protective items.. eventually we try to get an investigative result.  We can make some protective abilities, which basically means Mafia will need to prime some players twice (not sure if they'll know if their prime failed or not), but on the other hand they know who to prime and we have to guess on who to protect.   It's hard to visualize, but I think this is better for Mafia.  At the very least, we're very ill-informed through most of the game.

PPE: Yuma answered, okay.  I think I agree that that's better.

So basically your idea is: Use Ash's strategy.  No lynch Day 1.  Vote for person to get blown up each Day n, if they're alive on Day n+1, lynch them, else no lynch. 
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mail-mi

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #171 on: May 23, 2014, 09:29:27 pm »

I am officially /outing, as I have a trip to Spain at the beginning of june that is like 10 days long, and availability will be severely low.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #172 on: May 23, 2014, 11:30:15 pm »

So it must be D1 that we elect the Towniest of them all who is not thus mod-confirmed.
I nominate myself.

I protest this. You would be the last person I would nominate at this point... given you are my strongest scum read

My point exactly. I won't nominate anyone but myself because outside of the IC I am the only person I have any certainty at all is not scum. I am suspicious of anyone who supports this plan who votes for anyone besides themselves or me. Thus it is quite an impasse.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #173 on: May 24, 2014, 12:03:58 am »

What about everyone sends an item to Chairs tonight and he makes any items he thinks are good.  If we follow a patato strategy, Chairs cannot die tonight, I think, unless we pick a mafia and yheybsend it to him twice.  Then Mafia dies.  And even so he can maybe he can make a ..uh.. Diffuser? On phone can't check. 

Tomorrow we can consider another plan.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #174 on: May 24, 2014, 01:33:43 am »

What about everyone sends an item to Chairs tonight and he makes any items he thinks are good.  If we follow a patato strategy, Chairs cannot die tonight, I think, unless we pick a mafia and yheybsend it to him twice.  Then Mafia dies.  And even so he can maybe he can make a ..uh.. Diffuser? On phone can't check. 

Tomorrow we can consider another plan.
I think the only way that chairs could die tonight is if an Accelerant is bought, used, then he is ignited. Pretty unlikely...so I'm in favor of the item sending plan. If I were scum I wouldn't send the bomb with ash's proposed plan, so I think we should still lynch today.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #175 on: May 24, 2014, 05:15:58 am »

I'm involved in a few other games; no prod please.

On the hot potato thing, we should definitely use it as an extra lynch or maybe if we want to nolynch to allow powers to be used that could also work.
Why do we need a second person for the items? WHy not just send everything to the IC?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #176 on: May 24, 2014, 05:17:08 am »

IC input would be super helpful.
Who's the IC? I didn't see a mod-confirm yet.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #177 on: May 24, 2014, 05:19:27 am »

IC input would be super helpful.
Who's the IC? I didn't see a mod-confirm yet.


RMM15: INNOVATION II

chairs is confirmed town.

Day 1 start!

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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #178 on: May 24, 2014, 05:27:20 am »

I'm involved in a few other games; no prod please.

On the hot potato thing, we should definitely use it as an extra lynch or maybe if we want to nolynch to allow powers to be used that could also work.
Why do we need a second person for the items? WHy not just send everything to the IC?

If we send everything to the IC, then the IC will get 8 itemes, and the mafia wil just send stuff to themself.

If we divide everyone into two groups, who sends items to two different persons, those persons can check how many items they recieve, and we will know what group mafia belongs to if they choose not to send a item according to the plan. That will help us to catch mafia by a process of elimination later in the game.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #179 on: May 24, 2014, 05:37:37 am »

Okay; so if the main point is to deny scum the items wouldn't it be really bad if we chose a mafia member to give the items to? Especially since this is day 1 we aren't able to have strong enough reads to find certain town. That seems like a pretty big hole.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #180 on: May 24, 2014, 05:45:33 am »

If they don't kill then we lynch the person that should have died during the night from the potato...

I have no problem with mafia choosing to not use one of their night kills. Priming, if I understand it correctly, basically allows them to prime someone (but not kill) the first night. From then on they can either ignite and kill or continue priming.

So basically if they choose to go this route as their only method of killing then they are basically forfeiting their first night kill and have one less in the game at least (or more if they go through more then one prime-ignition cycles)...

Priming and ignition is actually a strong sort of NK, because it essentially kills someone without removing them from the (mis)lynch pool.

It has one weakness, though. If we lynch the arsonist and the back-up-arsonist, the primed players might never be blown up. This gives mafia the dilemma every night of primining one mor person for more deaths, or to ignite to secure the killings in case the arsonist would be lynched.

If we always no-lynch, we will not take advantage of this weakness. Since we during the day decides on a player to bomb at night, the mafia always knows if the arsonist will be killed or not, and can make it so the the arsonist blows up stuff right before his death.

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #181 on: May 24, 2014, 05:50:00 am »

Okay; so if the main point is to deny scum the items wouldn't it be really bad if we chose a mafia member to give the items to? Especially since this is day 1 we aren't able to have strong enough reads to find certain town. That seems like a pretty big hole.

We have 8/11 chance if we pick at random. Almost 3/4. The actual chance should be even higher as we do not pick at random, but select the biggest townread. I am comfortable with that risk.   
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #182 on: May 24, 2014, 08:58:26 am »

I'm involved in a few other games; no prod please.

On the hot potato thing, we should definitely use it as an extra lynch or maybe if we want to nolynch to allow powers to be used that could also work.
Why do we need a second person for the items? WHy not just send everything to the IC?

If we send everything to the IC, then the IC will get 8 itemes, and the mafia wil just send stuff to themself.

If we divide everyone into two groups, who sends items to two different persons, those persons can check how many items they recieve, and we will know what group mafia belongs to if they choose not to send a item according to the plan. That will help us to catch mafia by a process of elimination later in the game.

This just does not work. In the obvious case we elect a mafia receiver and the reported results are fraudulent. How can we ever trust the results unless we decide to lynch the receiver the next day to verify his report? Maybe that would work?

In the harder to detect case is the real likelihood that mafia will exist on both teams and depending on the alignment of the elected receiver we can be misled either to that fact or that they exist where they do not.

I think the 2 party receiver plan is completely useless we presume to lynch the 2nd party the next day and I refuse to participate. You can damn me for failure to participate or I can be more subtly damned by a rigged system that won't be detected until too late. I prefer town have reliable information.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #183 on: May 24, 2014, 09:01:53 am »

A few grammatical errors and disjointed thoughts due to typing on an iPad. I should clarify that I'd like to hear what an effective response would be to results that indicate Mafia is on both sending teams. I think the only sure way to verify results is to lynch the receiver which kind of defeats the purpose of sending him items.
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chairs

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #184 on: May 24, 2014, 09:43:39 am »

IC input would be super helpful.
Who's the IC? I didn't see a mod-confirm yet.

I'm the IC but am dealing with v/la issues that I keep getting will be cleared up "tomorrow".

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #185 on: May 24, 2014, 08:23:28 pm »

I'm involved in a few other games; no prod please.

On the hot potato thing, we should definitely use it as an extra lynch or maybe if we want to nolynch to allow powers to be used that could also work.
Why do we need a second person for the items? WHy not just send everything to the IC?

Why do we want an extra lynch?

If someone modded a game where you could get two lynches in a day would you take it?

I wouldn't. One lynch--especially in the early days--where it is pretty much random isn't worth it when he have the potential for PRs to get conclusive data on who scum is.

Rather... would you prefer to shoot in the dark 5 times or shoot once or twice with the lights on? I'll take the lights on. Part of getting the lights on is lynching randomly once on day1. I get that argument. But I don't see any need to lynch blindly more then we need to do so.

On later days there might be a utility to lynching and using the potato. But now right now.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #186 on: May 24, 2014, 08:25:47 pm »

Let  me be perfectly clear.....

I REFUSE to participate on both the lynch and the potato. If we lynch someone today and the hot potato is passed to me I will not follow any plan that is dictated to me. Perhaps my exlcusion in this process won't make a different, but if we go down this road I encourage others to do so as well and just send the potato to whomever they find scummiest.

This is not my preference. My preference is to no-lynch and use the NK as a pseudolynch and proceed as normal to maximize our preferences
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #187 on: May 24, 2014, 08:29:38 pm »

I'm involved in a few other games; no prod please.

On the hot potato thing, we should definitely use it as an extra lynch or maybe if we want to nolynch to allow powers to be used that could also work.
Why do we need a second person for the items? WHy not just send everything to the IC?

If we send everything to the IC, then the IC will get 8 itemes, and the mafia wil just send stuff to themself.

If we divide everyone into two groups, who sends items to two different persons, those persons can check how many items they recieve, and we will know what group mafia belongs to if they choose not to send a item according to the plan. That will help us to catch mafia by a process of elimination later in the game.

Why not expand this a bit then? Instead of sending to the IC and 1 other person, why not send to the IC and 2 or 3?

This does expand the chance that a few items get sent to mafia, but it does eliminate the possibility mafia getting such a large suprplus and continues to utilize the checking of how many items were received... and actually helps that attribute as the pools will be 2 or 3 people sending instead of 5 if someone doesn't get an item sent.

Of course we still run into the problem that PPS brought up about not being able to trust the receivers.

Really, my thoughts on this setup are however, that the less planning we do is probably the best. I like the pseudo lynch for reasons I have outlined, but I believe this to be a well designed setup that makes planning less optimal--which is good for the game in my belief as we will actually have to rely more on reads and good use of night actions, which we are perfectly capable of doing!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #188 on: May 24, 2014, 10:57:52 pm »

IC input would be super helpful.
Who's the IC? I didn't see a mod-confirm yet.

I'm the IC but am dealing with v/la issues that I keep getting will be cleared up "tomorrow".

chairs has asked to /out.  He is replaced by sudgy.  Thank you sudgy!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #189 on: May 24, 2014, 11:45:02 pm »

Vote Count 1.1

ashersky (1): faust
faust (3): ashersky, xeiron, pingpongsam
pingpongsam (1): Jimmmmm

not voting (7): A Drowned Kernel, Archetype, sudgy, mail-mi, Witherweaver, XerxesPraelor, yuma

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.  Deadline is Thursday, May 29th at 8 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #190 on: May 25, 2014, 06:04:05 am »

I'm involved in a few other games; no prod please.

On the hot potato thing, we should definitely use it as an extra lynch or maybe if we want to nolynch to allow powers to be used that could also work.
Why do we need a second person for the items? WHy not just send everything to the IC?

Why do we want an extra lynch?

If someone modded a game where you could get two lynches in a day would you take it?

I wouldn't. One lynch--especially in the early days--where it is pretty much random isn't worth it when he have the potential for PRs to get conclusive data on who scum is.

Rather... would you prefer to shoot in the dark 5 times or shoot once or twice with the lights on? I'll take the lights on. Part of getting the lights on is lynching randomly once on day1. I get that argument. But I don't see any need to lynch blindly more then we need to do so.

On later days there might be a utility to lynching and using the potato. But now right now.

I mostly disagree here.

So you understand that a mostly random lynch on day 1 is usually preferable to no lynch. If so, I don't get the argument why a second such lynch (with more information, as we already had the first lynch) would suddenly be detrimental. You're saying you prefer to shoot with lights on once or twice over shooting in the dark 5 times. Only, that's not the decision we have. The decision in front of us is, do we prefer to shoot in the dark 2-3 times, then shoot in the light once or twice, or do we only shoot once or twice in the light. And here, I don't understand how you would want to take the second option.
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faust

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #191 on: May 25, 2014, 06:10:39 am »

Why not expand this a bit then? Instead of sending to the IC and 1 other person, why not send to the IC and 2 or 3?

This does expand the chance that a few items get sent to mafia, but it does eliminate the possibility mafia getting such a large suprplus and continues to utilize the checking of how many items were received... and actually helps that attribute as the pools will be 2 or 3 people sending instead of 5 if someone doesn't get an item sent.

Two reasons that speak for having only one other receiver:
- 1. the chance that mafia gets items is higher, when part of the purpose of this plan is to not provide them items. You already said this.
- 2. powers that require lots of items to be built are the strongest. The less items we accumulate on one person, the less likely they are to be able to produce a really good power.

Generally, the more players we take into account, the more this gets shifted from a high risk - high reward strategy to a strategy that only gives us less benefit, but also can't go awfully wrong. Now I'm more the kind of guy who would take the risk, but I understand if other players have different opinions on this.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #192 on: May 25, 2014, 07:53:54 am »

I don't like taking that kind of risk - it makes the game rely way too much on how good our reads are today rather than helping to develop them and still be useful.

Also, since there are probably 3 scum, then we can calculate whether random kills are good or bad to do. I think that two lynches a day would be a good idea, especially later in the game, because we end up mislynching the people that scum primed, it's pretty much a wasted NK for them, which is kind of bad, especially when they have to spend an extra day igniting. More flips can also facilitate better reads depending on wagons too.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #193 on: May 25, 2014, 09:55:23 am »

I don't like taking that kind of risk - it makes the game rely way too much on how good our reads are today rather than helping to develop them and still be useful.

Also, since there are probably 3 scum, then we can calculate whether random kills are good or bad to do. I think that two lynches a day would be a good idea, especially later in the game, because we end up mislynching the people that scum primed, it's pretty much a wasted NK for them, which is kind of bad, especially when they have to spend an extra day igniting. More flips can also facilitate better reads depending on wagons too.

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XerxesPraelor

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #194 on: May 25, 2014, 10:07:20 am »

Not this thing again? I thought we agreed in the last game that it's okay to make guesses based on the number of players?
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #195 on: May 25, 2014, 10:47:56 am »


I mostly disagree here.

So you understand that a mostly random lynch on day 1 is usually preferable to no lynch. If so, I don't get the argument why a second such lynch (with more information, as we already had the first lynch) would suddenly be detrimental. You're saying you prefer to shoot with lights on once or twice over shooting in the dark 5 times. Only, that's not the decision we have. The decision in front of us is, do we prefer to shoot in the dark 2-3 times, then shoot in the light once or twice, or do we only shoot once or twice in the light. And here, I don't understand how you would want to take the second option.

The problem is we don't actually have that much more information, since we have to decide on the second lynch before we get the flip for the first lynch, so we'll essentially have 2 "random" day one lynches.

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faust

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #196 on: May 25, 2014, 10:49:10 am »


I mostly disagree here.

So you understand that a mostly random lynch on day 1 is usually preferable to no lynch. If so, I don't get the argument why a second such lynch (with more information, as we already had the first lynch) would suddenly be detrimental. You're saying you prefer to shoot with lights on once or twice over shooting in the dark 5 times. Only, that's not the decision we have. The decision in front of us is, do we prefer to shoot in the dark 2-3 times, then shoot in the light once or twice, or do we only shoot once or twice in the light. And here, I don't understand how you would want to take the second option.

The problem is we don't actually have that much more information, since we have to decide on the second lynch before we get the flip for the first lynch, so we'll essentially have 2 "random" day one lynches.

We can still do a "if A flips scum, do that, if A flips town, do this". It's a little convoluted, but managable.
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faust

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #197 on: May 25, 2014, 10:50:46 am »

Not this thing again? I thought we agreed in the last game that it's okay to make guesses based on the number of players?

Problem is: We all KNOW there are three scum. Yet you are making it sound as though you don't know it. That looks very much like scum thinking: "Well, I know who my partners are, but I shouldn't write that I know there are three mafia, so I'll throw in a 'probably'".
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #198 on: May 25, 2014, 10:56:37 am »

I repeat:

I'd like to hear what an effective response would be to results that indicate Mafia is on both sending teams.
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A Drowned Kernel

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #199 on: May 25, 2014, 10:57:46 am »

Not this thing again? I thought we agreed in the last game that it's okay to make guesses based on the number of players?

Problem is: We all KNOW there are three scum. Yet you are making it sound as though you don't know it. That looks very much like scum thinking: "Well, I know who my partners are, but I shouldn't write that I know there are three mafia, so I'll throw in a 'probably'".

To me it looks more like "didn't read the setup thinking".
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faust

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #200 on: May 25, 2014, 11:02:43 am »

I repeat:

I'd like to hear what an effective response would be to results that indicate Mafia is on both sending teams.

There are two groups and three mafia. So in one group, there will be two mafia. We can focus on this group tomorrow. The information becomes ever more valuable as we progress through the game, because on later days, we can POE even more.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #201 on: May 25, 2014, 11:19:20 am »

I repeat:

I'd like to hear what an effective response would be to results that indicate Mafia is on both sending teams.

There are two groups and three mafia. So in one group, there will be two mafia. We can focus on this group tomorrow. The information becomes ever more valuable as we progress through the game, because on later days, we can POE even more.

At least two mafia.  One group could have three.

What about this for tonight only?  Every player sends one item to Chairs.  Tomorrow, each player claims what they sent. Chairs checks any inconsistencies and makes it public.  This way, if Mafia lies and trades items with each other, Chairs will be missing some items and we'll know which ones.  This will also let us put the Mafia into groups (by which items didn't match up), which could be used for PoE later.  If Mafia does give their items to Chairs, then great, no issue.  Plus they can't make anything beyond a 1-item power tonight.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #202 on: May 25, 2014, 11:48:03 am »

I am not opposed to sending an item to chairs.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #203 on: May 25, 2014, 11:51:20 am »

I don't like taking that kind of risk - it makes the game rely way too much on how good our reads are today rather than helping to develop them and still be useful.

Also, since there are probably 3 scum, then we can calculate whether random kills are good or bad to do. I think that two lynches a day would be a good idea, especially later in the game, because we end up mislynching the people that scum primed, it's pretty much a wasted NK for them, which is kind of bad, especially when they have to spend an extra day igniting. More flips can also facilitate better reads depending on wagons too.

Vote: Xerxes
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #204 on: May 25, 2014, 06:53:49 pm »

I repeat:

I'd like to hear what an effective response would be to results that indicate Mafia is on both sending teams.

Mostly ignore it for a few days, and then use it to nail the last mafia in a LYLO situation. It is really useful when one or two mafias are already dead, and we are looking for the last one.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #205 on: May 25, 2014, 06:57:05 pm »

I repeat:

I'd like to hear what an effective response would be to results that indicate Mafia is on both sending teams.

There are two groups and three mafia. So in one group, there will be two mafia. We can focus on this group tomorrow. The information becomes ever more valuable as we progress through the game, because on later days, we can POE even more.

At least two mafia.  One group could have three.

What about this for tonight only?  Every player sends one item to Chairs.  Tomorrow, each player claims what they sent. Chairs checks any inconsistencies and makes it public.  This way, if Mafia lies and trades items with each other, Chairs will be missing some items and we'll know which ones.  This will also let us put the Mafia into groups (by which items didn't match up), which could be used for PoE later.  If Mafia does give their items to Chairs, then great, no issue.  Plus they can't make anything beyond a 1-item power tonight.
Items claiming tomorrow is a good idea. It can be done with even greater effect if we send items to two persons. I still like the original plan better.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #206 on: May 25, 2014, 06:59:27 pm »

I repeat:

I'd like to hear what an effective response would be to results that indicate Mafia is on both sending teams.

There are two groups and three mafia. So in one group, there will be two mafia. We can focus on this group tomorrow. The information becomes ever more valuable as we progress through the game, because on later days, we can POE even more.

At least two mafia.  One group could have three.

What about this for tonight only?  Every player sends one item to Chairs.  Tomorrow, each player claims what they sent. Chairs checks any inconsistencies and makes it public.  This way, if Mafia lies and trades items with each other, Chairs will be missing some items and we'll know which ones.  This will also let us put the Mafia into groups (by which items didn't match up), which could be used for PoE later.  If Mafia does give their items to Chairs, then great, no issue.  Plus they can't make anything beyond a 1-item power tonight.
Items claiming tomorrow is a good idea. It can be done with even greater effect if we send items to two persons. I still like the original plan better.

But there's still the risk of picking a Mafia member.  This eliminates that issue.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #207 on: May 25, 2014, 07:12:14 pm »

I repeat:

I'd like to hear what an effective response would be to results that indicate Mafia is on both sending teams.

There are two groups and three mafia. So in one group, there will be two mafia. We can focus on this group tomorrow. The information becomes ever more valuable as we progress through the game, because on later days, we can POE even more.

At least two mafia.  One group could have three.

What about this for tonight only?  Every player sends one item to Chairs.  Tomorrow, each player claims what they sent. Chairs checks any inconsistencies and makes it public.  This way, if Mafia lies and trades items with each other, Chairs will be missing some items and we'll know which ones.  This will also let us put the Mafia into groups (by which items didn't match up), which could be used for PoE later.  If Mafia does give their items to Chairs, then great, no issue.  Plus they can't make anything beyond a 1-item power tonight.
Items claiming tomorrow is a good idea. It can be done with even greater effect if we send items to two persons. I still like the original plan better.

But there's still the risk of picking a Mafia member.  This eliminates that issue.

True
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #208 on: May 25, 2014, 10:08:27 pm »

I mostly disagree here.

So you understand that a mostly random lynch on day 1 is usually preferable to no lynch. If so, I don't get the argument why a second such lynch (with more information, as we already had the first lynch) would suddenly be detrimental. You're saying you prefer to shoot with lights on once or twice over shooting in the dark 5 times. Only, that's not the decision we have. The decision in front of us is, do we prefer to shoot in the dark 2-3 times, then shoot in the light once or twice, or do we only shoot once or twice in the light. And here, I don't understand how you would want to take the second option.

A first lynch is preferable because the alternative is no information. But the quality of information that you get from a lynch is of low quality but it is better than nothing. It is something to start off of.

Compared to other opportunities for information (investigations, lynches based off previous lynches and wagon analysis, etc...) later in the game

In that light a second blind lynch is bad because it robs us of those further opportunities. You say we would have more information, but would we? The thread is locked before we receive a flip. We would have to make a decision on whom to potato before lynching... so we would be making that decision before having the necessary information.

As for my comparison. you are incorrect in what I am suggesting. I never said we should do a true no-lynch. I am saying that we shoot in the dark as much as necessary, but no more than that. Once tonight (today). Then the lights start coming on a bit for another lynch. Then maybe we can shoot fully in the light. But every shot in the complete dark robs us of one in more light.

This is why I have steadfastly refused to use my dayvigs that I have had during the first days that I had them. Because the would effectively be shots in the dark and not an effective way of using them at all.

And as a last point... not only will these be shots in the dark they will be shots in the dark manipulated by scum who are in the light! There is a proven track record of later day lynches being more successful than early day ones. Why would you want more early day lynches that are proven to be less successful? I am not nearly confident enough in our ability to successfully lynch day1 even with two opportunities. What is far more likely is that we will be down two townies...
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #209 on: May 25, 2014, 10:11:37 pm »

Why not expand this a bit then? Instead of sending to the IC and 1 other person, why not send to the IC and 2 or 3?

This does expand the chance that a few items get sent to mafia, but it does eliminate the possibility mafia getting such a large suprplus and continues to utilize the checking of how many items were received... and actually helps that attribute as the pools will be 2 or 3 people sending instead of 5 if someone doesn't get an item sent.

Two reasons that speak for having only one other receiver:
- 1. the chance that mafia gets items is higher, when part of the purpose of this plan is to not provide them items. You already said this.
- 2. powers that require lots of items to be built are the strongest. The less items we accumulate on one person, the less likely they are to be able to produce a really good power.

Generally, the more players we take into account, the more this gets shifted from a high risk - high reward strategy to a strategy that only gives us less benefit, but also can't go awfully wrong. Now I'm more the kind of guy who would take the risk, but I understand if other players have different opinions on this.

yeah... we have a completely different mindset. I have always been low risk, low reward. Why? Because I believe that we have enough quality players to, overtime, figure out who is scum and who isn't using investigations, wagon analysis and post analysis. We don't need high reward-high risk plans to try and get a win. Why gamble and toss the dice on something that might completely backfire when you already have a pretty good chance of winning based off skill?

I think I am at the point where I am pretty unlikely to go along with any plan that involves giving items to specific players. I will either keep them or give them to people that I have town reads on (which would include chairs).
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #210 on: May 25, 2014, 10:12:17 pm »

I don't like taking that kind of risk - it makes the game rely way too much on how good our reads are today rather than helping to develop them and still be useful.

Also, since there are probably 3 scum, then we can calculate whether random kills are good or bad to do. I think that two lynches a day would be a good idea, especially later in the game, because we end up mislynching the people that scum primed, it's pretty much a wasted NK for them, which is kind of bad, especially when they have to spend an extra day igniting. More flips can also facilitate better reads depending on wagons too.

Vote: Xerxes

lame... and I saw your reason below... still lame
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #211 on: May 25, 2014, 10:13:11 pm »

I don't like taking that kind of risk - it makes the game rely way too much on how good our reads are today rather than helping to develop them and still be useful.

Also, since there are probably 3 scum, then we can calculate whether random kills are good or bad to do. I think that two lynches a day would be a good idea, especially later in the game, because we end up mislynching the people that scum primed, it's pretty much a wasted NK for them, which is kind of bad, especially when they have to spend an extra day igniting. More flips can also facilitate better reads depending on wagons too.

Vote: Xerxes
Vote: Xerxes

vote: arch
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #212 on: May 25, 2014, 10:37:28 pm »

Vote Count 1.2

faust (3): ashersky, xeiron, pingpongsam
pingpongsam (1): Jimmmmm
XerxesPraelor (2): faust, Archetype
Archetype (1): yuma

not voting (5): A Drowned Kernel, sudgy, mail-mi, Witherweaver, XerxesPraelor

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.  Deadline is Thursday, May 29th at 8 pm
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 07:14:34 pm by EFHW »
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #213 on: May 26, 2014, 12:05:01 am »

Not this thing again? I thought we agreed in the last game that it's okay to make guesses based on the number of players?

Problem is: We all KNOW there are three scum. Yet you are making it sound as though you don't know it. That looks very much like scum thinking: "Well, I know who my partners are, but I shouldn't write that I know there are three mafia, so I'll throw in a 'probably'".
This is exactly how I read it.

@EFHW: faust is voting for Xerxes, not ash.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #214 on: May 26, 2014, 12:06:54 am »

Pretty sure my vote is still on Faust.  Did I change it?  Definitely not to XP, though.

vote: faust to be safe.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #215 on: May 26, 2014, 12:50:44 am »

Not this thing again? I thought we agreed in the last game that it's okay to make guesses based on the number of players?

Problem is: We all KNOW there are three scum. Yet you are making it sound as though you don't know it. That looks very much like scum thinking: "Well, I know who my partners are, but I shouldn't write that I know there are three mafia, so I'll throw in a 'probably'".
This is exactly how I read it.

@EFHW: faust is voting for Xerxes, not ash.


I'm a little unconvinced of this.  After the huge thing that went down in WoT with the "scum slips," I did this same thing as town in HoC, where I started stating everything with uncertainty modifiers. 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #216 on: May 26, 2014, 01:34:35 am »

Not this thing again? I thought we agreed in the last game that it's okay to make guesses based on the number of players?

Problem is: We all KNOW there are three scum. Yet you are making it sound as though you don't know it. That looks very much like scum thinking: "Well, I know who my partners are, but I shouldn't write that I know there are three mafia, so I'll throw in a 'probably'".
This is exactly how I read it.

@EFHW: faust is voting for Xerxes, not ash.


I'm a little unconvinced of this.  After the huge thing that went down in WoT with the "scum slips," I did this same thing as town in HoC, where I started stating everything with uncertainty modifiers.
But did you profess uncertainty regarding how many scum there were? The problem in WoT was that it was a closed setup - the exact number of scum was unknown. Here, though, the alignments and numbers associated with them are available to everyone. So understand why Xerxes would be hesitant to state absolutes, but he shouldn't be if there is no way he can scumslip about how many Mafia there are.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #217 on: May 26, 2014, 01:54:25 am »

I repeat:

I'd like to hear what an effective response would be to results that indicate Mafia is on both sending teams.

There are two groups and three mafia. So in one group, there will be two mafia. We can focus on this group tomorrow. The information becomes ever more valuable as we progress through the game, because on later days, we can POE even more.

At least two mafia.  One group could have three.

What about this for tonight only?  Every player sends one item to Chairs.  Tomorrow, each player claims what they sent. Chairs checks any inconsistencies and makes it public.  This way, if Mafia lies and trades items with each other, Chairs will be missing some items and we'll know which ones.  This will also let us put the Mafia into groups (by which items didn't match up), which could be used for PoE later.  If Mafia does give their items to Chairs, then great, no issue.  Plus they can't make anything beyond a 1-item power tonight.

The problem with sending everything to chairs is scum can use a Roleblocker to devastating effect. But I think item claiming will have some merit.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #218 on: May 26, 2014, 01:57:19 am »

I haven't read pretty much anything, I know I'm an IC, and I realized I'm busy tomorrow as well, so I'll catch up on Tuesday.  Hopefully I'll be able to help out enough by deadline.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #219 on: May 26, 2014, 02:06:43 am »

As for my comparison. you are incorrect in what I am suggesting. I never said we should do a true no-lynch. I am saying that we shoot in the dark as much as necessary, but no more than that. Once tonight (today). Then the lights start coming on a bit for another lynch. Then maybe we can shoot fully in the light. But every shot in the complete dark robs us of one in more light.

But I don't think it's every shot we shoot early we will miss later. Consider a worst-case scenario.

a) 1 town controlled death per day/night
Then we get three shots. By then, mafia will have primed three players. D4, another shot for us, and if we fail, mafia immediately wins. Note that even if we manage to lynch mafia in this scenario, they might still win by successfully using the Hot Potato.

b) 2 town controlled deaths per night
We already get four shots until the end of N2. Then two players are primed. We have two more shots for D3/N3. SO this totals to 6 shots before we reach the point where we lose. Effectively, we gain two shots.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #220 on: May 26, 2014, 02:18:57 am »

Not this thing again? I thought we agreed in the last game that it's okay to make guesses based on the number of players?

Problem is: We all KNOW there are three scum. Yet you are making it sound as though you don't know it. That looks very much like scum thinking: "Well, I know who my partners are, but I shouldn't write that I know there are three mafia, so I'll throw in a 'probably'".
This is exactly how I read it.

@EFHW: faust is voting for Xerxes, not ash.


I'm a little unconvinced of this.  After the huge thing that went down in WoT with the "scum slips," I did this same thing as town in HoC, where I started stating everything with uncertainty modifiers.
But did you profess uncertainty regarding how many scum there were? The problem in WoT was that it was a closed setup - the exact number of scum was unknown. Here, though, the alignments and numbers associated with them are available to everyone. So understand why Xerxes would be hesitant to state absolutes, but he shouldn't be if there is no way he can scumslip about how many Mafia there are.

I did exactly that, actually (link).  Volt called me out on it later. 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #221 on: May 26, 2014, 02:26:22 am »

I repeat:

I'd like to hear what an effective response would be to results that indicate Mafia is on both sending teams.

There are two groups and three mafia. So in one group, there will be two mafia. We can focus on this group tomorrow. The information becomes ever more valuable as we progress through the game, because on later days, we can POE even more.

At least two mafia.  One group could have three.

What about this for tonight only?  Every player sends one item to Chairs.  Tomorrow, each player claims what they sent. Chairs checks any inconsistencies and makes it public.  This way, if Mafia lies and trades items with each other, Chairs will be missing some items and we'll know which ones.  This will also let us put the Mafia into groups (by which items didn't match up), which could be used for PoE later.  If Mafia does give their items to Chairs, then great, no issue.  Plus they can't make anything beyond a 1-item power tonight.

The problem with sending everything to chairs is scum can use a Roleblocker to devastating effect. But I think item claiming will have some merit.

Hm, I had it in my head that they couldn't tonight.  But you're right.  However, they need Badge+Magnifying glass.  So there has to be one scum that can't send an item to Chairs.  So we'll have one unaccounted for item in the claiming, so it's pretty risky for scum to do. 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #222 on: May 26, 2014, 03:38:15 am »

Not this thing again? I thought we agreed in the last game that it's okay to make guesses based on the number of players?

Problem is: We all KNOW there are three scum. Yet you are making it sound as though you don't know it. That looks very much like scum thinking: "Well, I know who my partners are, but I shouldn't write that I know there are three mafia, so I'll throw in a 'probably'".
This is exactly how I read it.

@EFHW: faust is voting for Xerxes, not ash.


I'm a little unconvinced of this.  After the huge thing that went down in WoT with the "scum slips," I did this same thing as town in HoC, where I started stating everything with uncertainty modifiers.
But did you profess uncertainty regarding how many scum there were? The problem in WoT was that it was a closed setup - the exact number of scum was unknown. Here, though, the alignments and numbers associated with them are available to everyone. So understand why Xerxes would be hesitant to state absolutes, but he shouldn't be if there is no way he can scumslip about how many Mafia there are.
Yeah, I just forgot that we knew that part of the Setup. You probably already know that's the case, but it seems
I mostly disagree here.

So you understand that a mostly random lynch on day 1 is usually preferable to no lynch. If so, I don't get the argument why a second such lynch (with more information, as we already had the first lynch) would suddenly be detrimental. You're saying you prefer to shoot with lights on once or twice over shooting in the dark 5 times. Only, that's not the decision we have. The decision in front of us is, do we prefer to shoot in the dark 2-3 times, then shoot in the light once or twice, or do we only shoot once or twice in the light. And here, I don't understand how you would want to take the second option.

In that light a second blind lynch is bad because it robs us of those further opportunities. You say we would have more information, but would we? The thread is locked before we receive a flip. We would have to make a decision on whom to potato before lynching... so we would be making that decision before having the necessary information.


Isn't the Workaround for this obvious. We just choose two People to lynch, depending on how someone Flips.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #223 on: May 26, 2014, 08:48:08 am »

FYI I haven't forgotten this game and will hopefully have time to catch up tomorrow.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #224 on: May 26, 2014, 12:28:37 pm »

Not this thing again? I thought we agreed in the last game that it's okay to make guesses based on the number of players?

Problem is: We all KNOW there are three scum. Yet you are making it sound as though you don't know it. That looks very much like scum thinking: "Well, I know who my partners are, but I shouldn't write that I know there are three mafia, so I'll throw in a 'probably'".
This is exactly how I read it.

@EFHW: faust is voting for Xerxes, not ash.


I'm a little unconvinced of this.  After the huge thing that went down in WoT with the "scum slips," I did this same thing as town in HoC, where I started stating everything with uncertainty modifiers.
But did you profess uncertainty regarding how many scum there were? The problem in WoT was that it was a closed setup - the exact number of scum was unknown. Here, though, the alignments and numbers associated with them are available to everyone. So understand why Xerxes would be hesitant to state absolutes, but he shouldn't be if there is no way he can scumslip about how many Mafia there are.

I did exactly that, actually (link).  Volt called me out on it later.
Huh. Weird. That gives Xerxes some leeway, but I'm still comfortable with my vote on him.

I don't think anyone has answered, so I'll ask again: If we follow the bomb plan, do we have any guarantee that Mafia would send the bomb. If I were Mafia, I certainly wouldn't. My team gets a free priming and the intended recipient of the bomb is going to be lynched the next day anyways.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #225 on: May 26, 2014, 03:20:02 pm »

That's why we should lynch and bomb.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #226 on: May 26, 2014, 04:02:00 pm »

On one hand, if mafia doesn't send the bomb, that's good because hey, no death.

On the other, no info.

I prefer to lynch and control the bomb on D1, the sort out the mess on D2 (probably with no lynch).
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #227 on: May 26, 2014, 04:02:37 pm »

Also business trip starting now (at airport) so expect odd availability.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #228 on: May 26, 2014, 04:08:31 pm »

On one hand, if mafia doesn't send the bomb, that's good because hey, no death.

On the other, no info.

I prefer to lynch and control the bomb on D1, the sort out the mess on D2 (probably with no lynch).
And someone gets primed. But I guess sudgy also gets a bunch of items.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #229 on: May 26, 2014, 05:05:23 pm »


I don't think anyone has answered, so I'll ask again: If we follow the bomb plan, do we have any guarantee that Mafia would send the bomb. If I were Mafia, I certainly wouldn't. My team gets a free priming and the intended recipient of the bomb is going to be lynched the next day anyways.

That's why we should lynch and bomb.

Just as Xerxes says. We should lynch and bomb. Here are three reasons:

1. we get more chances to find scum (6 shots, instead of 4, to cach the first one) as Faust explains here.
As for my comparison. you are incorrect in what I am suggesting. I never said we should do a true no-lynch. I am saying that we shoot in the dark as much as necessary, but no more than that. Once tonight (today). Then the lights start coming on a bit for another lynch. Then maybe we can shoot fully in the light. But every shot in the complete dark robs us of one in more light.

But I don't think it's every shot we shoot early we will miss later. Consider a worst-case scenario.

a) 1 town controlled death per day/night
Then we get three shots. By then, mafia will have primed three players. D4, another shot for us, and if we fail, mafia immediately wins. Note that even if we manage to lynch mafia in this scenario, they might still win by successfully using the Hot Potato.

b) 2 town controlled deaths per night
We already get four shots until the end of N2. Then two players are primed. We have two more shots for D3/N3. SO this totals to 6 shots before we reach the point where we lose. Effectively, we gain two shots.

2. If we do not lynch, mafia can choose not to bomb, and we reach D2 with no information and one primed townie (and some items). Just as Archetype pointed out.

3. Mafia can manipulate the potato bomb. If we no-lynch, just bombs, the first two mafia members will effectively get a vengekill each. They will not if we lynch them. explanation in the example below:


Mafia can counter this in two ways.
1. Choose not to send out the potato at all. This is fine, as we have one less kill to worry about.
2. If we decide on bombing a mafia player, they can fix it so that another player dies instead.
Examle: Town have decided to bomb player A (who happends to be mafia). Mafia player starts by sending the potato to town player C (A player they would like to kill, like the IC) Player C sends the potato to A, and A sends it back to C. This is not that bad for town, as we now know that Player A is mafia. (Because of this, The IC and others should consider making a Privacy Curtain.)

 



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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #230 on: May 26, 2014, 07:15:24 pm »

Pretty sure my vote is still on Faust.  Did I change it?  Definitely not to XP, though.

vote: faust to be safe.


fixed it. I'm back from vla now, so I should be more on top of things from this point forward.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #231 on: May 26, 2014, 09:01:43 pm »

Definitely agree we should lynch
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #232 on: May 26, 2014, 09:04:03 pm »

Well apparently I am in the extreme minority with my views but that doesn't make me want to change them. Instead I am going to just move on, although I have very little confidence that the right decision is being made. This will be my last attempt to put down my thoughts (not that it matters as I doubt anyone will be convinced either because a lack of ability to explain on my part or a lack of comprehension on the part of others, it doesn't really matter which). If people agree with me great. If not, oh well. I am going to do what I think best regardless. I don't have the time or energy to go back and forth any more than I already have.

here is what I see playing out:

we mislynch today
the potato hits town tonight
mafia prime tonight
nobody uses anything to investigate as everyone will be to concerned about giving items to chairs to protect him and sending items to other people of unknown alignment.

and then basically repeating this in quick succession over the next few days until mafia is at a point where they can win with a mass arsonist explosion.

My whole point in this whole argument is that the longer we stay alive the more likely we can get solid, confirmable investigation results that we can then use.

Yes, mafia might not use the potato kill... and that is absolutly fine! It means that their only method of killing is the priming, which is a horrible way of killing compared to normal. Because you are at best already behind one.

Normal killing goes like this:
Night1 - 1 kill; total of 1 killed
Night2 - 1 kill; total of 2
night3 - 1 kill; total of 3
night4 - 1 kill; total of 4

the priming goes like this:
Night1 - prime1 total of 0
night2- prime2 total of 0
night3 - prime3 total of 0
night4 - blow up; total of 3

or even worse:
night1 - prime1 total of 0
night2 - blow up, total of 1
night3 - prime1, total of 1
night4 - blow up, total of 2 killed.

So at best mafia are short 1 NK! Add in that we might lynch (or potato kill) people that they have primed thus forcing them to lose another directed kill!

I am not saying we should never use both the lynch and the potato kill. I am saying that we should only do so in instances where killing multiple players at a time is a benefit. For example, if someone claims an investigation result that results in a lynch that ends up being false... then maybe consider potatoing the lying player.

That is how dayvigs should be used. I know dayvigs guys! this potato thing is a lot like that! vigging works best when it is done with an express purpose and reason not at random.

That was a lot and is all I have to say and won't (although I have been known to break down in situations like these in the past and argue, but hopefully I have matured and learned from my experiences). Again, I am completely unconvinced that we should use both the lynch and the potato in the early days and I will NOT PARTICIPATE and I encourage others to do the same unless we no-lynch first!
vote: no-lynch. if it becomes apparent that we won't do that then I will not participate in any potato plans and send the bomb to whomever I think is scummiest and I encourage others to do the same.
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #233 on: May 26, 2014, 09:04:57 pm »

and if we do lynch I still think it should be archetype. The guy is scum etov: archetype
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #234 on: May 26, 2014, 09:48:19 pm »

And all that said, we are doing horribly on the true scum hunting angle.

I honestly don't have a single townread at this point... people should vote (or pseudo vote) for archetype for me.

Why are people voting for faust and Xerxes? I remember both being for lame reasons but can't remember what they actually were... over plans and a pseudo scumslip?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #235 on: May 26, 2014, 11:04:07 pm »

Upon consideration I think Yuma's take makes more sense. If we lynch and control the bomb then we've basically put our second lynch through with no information from the first one (unless we set up some convoluted system of "if the lynch flips scum, bomb-kill x; if they flip town, bomb-kill y", but I don't really see how that could work). We're basically robbing mafia of a nightkill. Mafia gets more time to set up their powers this way but so does town, and the longer town remains alive the more effectively we can use our items.

Vote: No lynch
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #236 on: May 26, 2014, 11:31:51 pm »

Vote Count 1.3

faust (3): ashersky, xeiron, pingpongsam
pingpongsam (1): Jimmmmm
XerxesPraelor (2): faust, Archetype
no lynch (2): yuma, A Drowned Kernel

not voting (4): , sudgy, mail-mi, Witherweaver, XerxesPraelor

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.  Deadline is Thursday, May 29th at 8 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #237 on: May 26, 2014, 11:34:37 pm »

Vote Count 1.3

faust (3): ashersky, xeiron, pingpongsam
pingpongsam (1): Jimmmmm
XerxesPraelor (2): faust, Archetype
no lynch (2): yuma, A Drowned Kernel

not voting (4): , sudgy, mail-mi, Witherweaver, XerxesPraelor

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.  Deadline is Thursday, May 29th at 8 pm
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #238 on: May 26, 2014, 11:37:26 pm »

We have to ALL agree to the plan.  Or else it doesn't work at all.  One person not following could mess it up.

I'm less worried about the lynch/no-lynch thing as I am about us not agreeing and getting to deadline without our night action plan figured out.

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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #239 on: May 27, 2014, 01:31:50 am »

We have to ALL agree to the plan.  Or else it doesn't work at all.  One person not following could mess it up.

I'm less worried about the lynch/no-lynch thing as I am about us not agreeing and getting to deadline without our night action plan figured out.

I agree.

We should all agree to the plan of no-lynching.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #240 on: May 27, 2014, 04:00:30 am »

But won't that plan just mean that scum get a free prime every night and nothing else changes?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #241 on: May 27, 2014, 04:38:59 am »

In general, I think agreeing to no-lynch is often detrimental as having the threat of a lynch over people's heads is often what causes tells. Having said that, I'm willing to no-lynch Today. Having said that, if we were to lynch, I'd probably be in the faust-voting camp.

I think we should mass-item-claim Today, and then each send an item to sudgy.
I also think that sudgy (taking into account other people's reads etc) should nominate someone to die Tonight, and at any time if a Town-aligned player has the bomb, they will immediately send it to the chosen player, who if Town will elect to keep it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #242 on: May 27, 2014, 05:01:11 am »

In general, I think agreeing to no-lynch is often detrimental as having the threat of a lynch over people's heads is often what causes tells. Having said that, I'm willing to no-lynch Today. Having said that, if we were to lynch, I'd probably be in the faust-voting camp.

I think we should mass-item-claim Today, and then each send an item to sudgy.
I also think that sudgy (taking into account other people's reads etc) should nominate someone to die Tonight, and at any time if a Town-aligned player has the bomb, they will immediately send it to the chosen player, who if Town will elect to keep it.

Why sudgy?  Do you know something we don't?
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faust

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #243 on: May 27, 2014, 05:06:50 am »

In general, I think agreeing to no-lynch is often detrimental as having the threat of a lynch over people's heads is often what causes tells. Having said that, I'm willing to no-lynch Today. Having said that, if we were to lynch, I'd probably be in the faust-voting camp.

I think we should mass-item-claim Today, and then each send an item to sudgy.
I also think that sudgy (taking into account other people's reads etc) should nominate someone to die Tonight, and at any time if a Town-aligned player has the bomb, they will immediately send it to the chosen player, who if Town will elect to keep it.

Why sudgy?  Do you know something we don't?

sudgy replaced chairs as IC.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #244 on: May 27, 2014, 09:35:53 am »

In general, I think agreeing to no-lynch is often detrimental as having the threat of a lynch over people's heads is often what causes tells. Having said that, I'm willing to no-lynch Today. Having said that, if we were to lynch, I'd probably be in the faust-voting camp.

I think we should mass-item-claim Today, and then each send an item to sudgy.
I also think that sudgy (taking into account other people's reads etc) should nominate someone to die Tonight, and at any time if a Town-aligned player has the bomb, they will immediately send it to the chosen player, who if Town will elect to keep it.

I'm okay with all this.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #245 on: May 27, 2014, 09:40:21 am »

I have 2 bandages.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #246 on: May 27, 2014, 09:47:22 am »

I have 2 badges. Something else we could do is for someone to give me a bandage and then I can use it to protect sudgy. Obviously this is dependent on you trusting me, but at least if sudgy dies that'll implicate me. Obviously this should only be done with sudgy's permission.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #247 on: May 27, 2014, 09:50:50 am »

I have 2 badges. Something else we could do is for someone to give me a bandage and then I can use it to protect sudgy. Obviously this is dependent on you trusting me, but at least if sudgy dies that'll implicate me. Obviously this should only be done with sudgy's permission.

I have 2 Papers.

If someone sends items to someone other than Sudgy, that messes up the claiming thing.

Sudgy can make all the items himself.  He can target himself with fireproof.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #248 on: May 27, 2014, 09:55:02 am »

I have 2 badges. Something else we could do is for someone to give me a bandage and then I can use it to protect sudgy. Obviously this is dependent on you trusting me, but at least if sudgy dies that'll implicate me. Obviously this should only be done with sudgy's permission.

I have 2 Papers.

If someone sends items to someone other than Sudgy, that messes up the claiming thing.

Sudgy can make all the items himself.  He can target himself with fireproof.

It doesn't mess it up if we don't plan for everyone to send everything to sudgy. I think we probably should just send everything to sudgy, but it's just another option. sudgy can tell me to send a badge to pps and pps to send a badge to me, and we can both confirm whether we received it and then both protect sudgy. Obviously if one of us is scum that's not so good as they'll then have 2 items and can rely on the other to protect sudgy and gains the stealth ability, and if both of us are scum that's probably worse. So I'm not saying we should do it, I'm saying it's an option for us, particularly sudgy, to consider.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #249 on: May 27, 2014, 10:00:09 am »

I have 2 badges. Something else we could do is for someone to give me a bandage and then I can use it to protect sudgy. Obviously this is dependent on you trusting me, but at least if sudgy dies that'll implicate me. Obviously this should only be done with sudgy's permission.

I have 2 Papers.

If someone sends items to someone other than Sudgy, that messes up the claiming thing.

Sudgy can make all the items himself.  He can target himself with fireproof.

It doesn't mess it up if we don't plan for everyone to send everything to sudgy. I think we probably should just send everything to sudgy, but it's just another option. sudgy can tell me to send a badge to pps and pps to send a badge to me, and we can both confirm whether we received it and then both protect sudgy. Obviously if one of us is scum that's not so good as they'll then have 2 items and can rely on the other to protect sudgy and gains the stealth ability, and if both of us are scum that's probably worse. So I'm not saying we should do it, I'm saying it's an option for us, particularly sudgy, to consider.

Right.  I prefer the Sudgy thing, because then we can conclude anyone who didn't send an item to Sudgy is scum.  With Sudgy claiming the items he got and everyone claiming what they sent, then we'll have a group of, say, 2-5 where we know a scum is if there is an inconsistency.  If everything checks out, then we can be certain scum didn't make any 2-item powers during the first night.
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faust

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #250 on: May 27, 2014, 10:02:52 am »

I'm sort of torn on the plan Jimmmmm proposed. Sure, it helps POEing, but it also gives scum exact information about what powers they are facing. And all powers being sent to sudgy also means that scum can easily roleblock.

I will follow along eventually if that's the majority's opinion, because this plan is still better than no plan at all, but I think we can do better. And I find it weird that people start claiming without waiting for everyone (especially sudgy) to give their opinion on this.

PPE: 1
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #251 on: May 27, 2014, 11:01:46 am »

I have two items. They are redacted and redacted.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #252 on: May 27, 2014, 11:05:05 am »

I'm sort of torn on the plan Jimmmmm proposed. Sure, it helps POEing, but it also gives scum exact information about what powers they are facing. And all powers being sent to sudgy also means that scum can easily roleblock.

I will follow along eventually if that's the majority's opinion, because this plan is still better than no plan at all, but I think we can do better. And I find it weird that people start claiming without waiting for everyone (especially sudgy) to give their opinion on this.

PPE: 1

This... well the second paragraph. You can't force people to agree to a plan that others haven't already agreed to. I am opposed to it and won't be claiming. hence my disagreement on the last part, I won't be item claiming and I may or may not send items to sudgy. I will not follow this even if it is the majority's opinion because I think it is a bad idea. It isn't my fault people foolishly preemptively item claimed.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #253 on: May 27, 2014, 11:11:48 am »

I'm sort of torn on the plan Jimmmmm proposed. Sure, it helps POEing, but it also gives scum exact information about what powers they are facing. And all powers being sent to sudgy also means that scum can easily roleblock.

I will follow along eventually if that's the majority's opinion, because this plan is still better than no plan at all, but I think we can do better. And I find it weird that people start claiming without waiting for everyone (especially sudgy) to give their opinion on this.

PPE: 1

This... well the second paragraph. You can't force people to agree to a plan that others haven't already agreed to. I am opposed to it and won't be claiming. hence my disagreement on the last part, I won't be item claiming and I may or may not send items to sudgy. I will not follow this even if it is the majority's opinion because I think it is a bad idea. It isn't my fault people foolishly preemptively item claimed.

Why is it a bad idea? Would you rather give scum free rein to coordinate their items however they like?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #254 on: May 27, 2014, 11:19:27 am »

I'm sort of torn on the plan Jimmmmm proposed. Sure, it helps POEing, but it also gives scum exact information about what powers they are facing. And all powers being sent to sudgy also means that scum can easily roleblock.

I will follow along eventually if that's the majority's opinion, because this plan is still better than no plan at all, but I think we can do better. And I find it weird that people start claiming without waiting for everyone (especially sudgy) to give their opinion on this.

PPE: 1

I don't think it was foolish at all. I weighed whether or not to simply state the single item I would send sudgy thus keeping the other item undisclosed. I am in favor of mass item claiming and tacitly took that position by being the first to do it.

I do like Jimmmmm's idea about sudgy directing who we send to. I haven't thought it through yet but if there are 3 of us who are sending bandages to sudgy and one of us fails to do so then there is no way to know which of the 3 failed to send. This is likely to happen for any item set. Also, Mafia would be inclined to say that they were sending bandages whether they had any or not to send then fail to send in order to paint me scum. So, I do think sending strictly to sudgy has its flaws.

The directed trading should resolve to  simple A/B conditions with the only real caveat being if 2 mafia are paired where they would each confirm one another whether any trading happened or not.

This... well the second paragraph. You can't force people to agree to a plan that others haven't already agreed to. I am opposed to it and won't be claiming. hence my disagreement on the last part, I won't be item claiming and I may or may not send items to sudgy. I will not follow this even if it is the majority's opinion because I think it is a bad idea. It isn't my fault people foolishly preemptively item claimed.
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pingpongsam

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #255 on: May 27, 2014, 11:19:52 am »

Vote: yuma
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #256 on: May 27, 2014, 11:52:26 am »

I'm sort of torn on the plan Jimmmmm proposed. Sure, it helps POEing, but it also gives scum exact information about what powers they are facing. And all powers being sent to sudgy also means that scum can easily roleblock.

I will follow along eventually if that's the majority's opinion, because this plan is still better than no plan at all, but I think we can do better. And I find it weird that people start claiming without waiting for everyone (especially sudgy) to give their opinion on this.

PPE: 1

This... well the second paragraph. You can't force people to agree to a plan that others haven't already agreed to. I am opposed to it and won't be claiming. hence my disagreement on the last part, I won't be item claiming and I may or may not send items to sudgy. I will not follow this even if it is the majority's opinion because I think it is a bad idea. It isn't my fault people foolishly preemptively item claimed.

Why is it a bad idea? Would you rather give scum free rein to coordinate their items however they like?

see the arguments presented above (roleblocking is a concern) + if chairs ever goes down then we have all our eggs in one basket + only one player capable of having and using PRs when we could have multiple + I don't trust a single one of you to come up with a plan that isn't manipulatable and in favor of scum. There are too many variables to find a plan that will solidly help town, so I am sticking with the setup. I might give my items to chairs, but I will not promise to do so and give mafia that information.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #257 on: May 27, 2014, 11:53:32 am »

Vote: yuma

did you have something to add to this? I am assuming you just disagree with me...
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #258 on: May 27, 2014, 11:58:21 am »

basically I am against any high risk-high reward plan where we don't know what the outcome is going to be. I have enough convidence in our ability to form reads and use investigative powers properly that I don't feel the need to risk everything for something that might have a large pay off. There just isn't a need to take a risk like that. If we felt we only had a 20% chance of winning to start... then sure ti would be worth it. But I feel like we have a 50% chance or greater just sticking to basically normal conditions.

Unless there is a guarantee (or close to a guarantee, which I feel that the no-lynch/potato plan does signify) that things will turn out favorably for us I am not going to support or participate in a such a plan
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #259 on: May 27, 2014, 11:59:06 am »

But won't that plan just mean that scum get a free prime every night and nothing else changes?

I am not discussing this any further. I have outlined my pros and cons and feel I have addressed all relatively points. Please go back and reread what I have said if you want to know what I feel.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #260 on: May 27, 2014, 12:00:30 pm »

see the arguments presented above (roleblocking is a concern) + if chairs ever goes down then we have all our eggs in one basket + only one player capable of having and using PRs when we could have multiple + I don't trust a single one of you to come up with a plan that isn't manipulatable and in favor of scum. There are too many variables to find a plan that will solidly help town, so I am sticking with the setup. I might give my items to chairs, but I will not promise to do so and give mafia that information.

But that ruins all the PoE benefit :(  SudgyChairs can't die tonight.  If he does get roleblocked, then scum could end up in a very small pool to identify them, which I think is very risky.  Even so, he doesn't have to use all his items.  So Roleblocking isn't 100% sure.

He can't even die tomorrow night unless he's primed tonight and blown up tomorrow.  If he does get his fireproof through tonight, that can't even happen (fireproof resolves before priming).

Does Roleblocking stop the making of items, or only their use?

So the three people that identified all had two of the same item.  What's the chance of that if both draws were independently random?

PPE Yuma: I don't think this version is high risk, high-reward.  I think it's medium/low-risk, good reward.  I think the two-person version is more high-risk, high-reward.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #261 on: May 27, 2014, 12:05:36 pm »

And night 2, we will still have multiple people capable of using PRs.  We each get a new random item at the end of Night 1.

Caveat though, I see your point.  Anything that we do with full transparency allows scum to know what we do.  I guess doing it for tonight only doesn't strike me as that risky.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #262 on: May 27, 2014, 12:06:34 pm »

I have enough convidence in our ability to form reads and use investigative powers properly that I don't feel the need to risk everything for something that might have a large pay off.

Based on what? How often does Town actually win? Besides, many of the suggestions don't actually come with a major risk.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #263 on: May 27, 2014, 01:02:43 pm »


Does Roleblocking stop the making of items, or only their use?


Only their use.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #264 on: May 27, 2014, 01:05:48 pm »

Since mail-mi is off frolicking in Spain, Voltaire has generously agreed to sub in for him.  Thanks Voltaire!
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #265 on: May 27, 2014, 01:07:32 pm »

Since mail-mi is off frolicking in Spain, Voltaire has generously agreed to sub in for him.  Thanks Voltaire!

Voltaire!!! come speak reason to these people!!!
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #266 on: May 27, 2014, 01:11:01 pm »

I still have a scumread on arch and PPS is a growing one (although I think I had him pegged as scummy before). faust is emerging as  a towier read as is jimmmm to an extent. everyone else kinda defaults to scumm lurkers... i know ash is vla and WW isn't lurking but hasn't made a read mark for me

what are other people's reads? deadline is in 2 days (also i don;t think we should potato kill solely off what sudgy says to do... if anything he should only create a pool from us to choose from and should absolutely not be the deciding vote or voice!)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #267 on: May 27, 2014, 01:34:55 pm »

Hey everyone! Won't be caught up/useful until tonight, though I have been passively following this game since it started. For now, can someone tell me if yuma refusing to participate in plan(s) completely ruins them, or can we do them anyway?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #268 on: May 27, 2014, 01:42:11 pm »

Vote: yuma

did you have something to add to this? I am assuming you just disagree with me...

I don't disagree with you. I just think Mafia is the most motivated to not participate.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #269 on: May 27, 2014, 01:42:48 pm »

Alright, I'm here.  First, regarding the two plans:

I think we should control the bomb and lynch today.  We can maybe change things tomorrow, but having two town-controlled lynches should be really good.

Regarding sending items, this is what I want everyone to do: Each player send me one item tonight.  If possible, give me a badge or bandage to ensure I get a firefighter, then maybe a privacy curtain later.  Tomorrow I want everyone to tell me what they gave me, and I'll check and see what groups could be telling the truth.  I don't want any more discussion on this plan so that we can discuss better things (LIKE SCUMHUNTING).

I actually have a townread on Xerxes, it seems like he didn't read the setup completely.  I have pretty much no other reads.

Regarding who to lynch and who to bomb, I have no idea.  We need to scumhunt.  At the moment, I would lynch yuma, not because he is a scumread, but because he is against a plan I think is pro town and, if we lynch him, we can make sure town will comply with the hot potato plan since he won't be able to mess it up.  Because that's all I have to go on right now, Vote: yuma

PPE: Now that I think about it, yuma not following the plan won't mess things up too much.  Here is what could happen regarding yuma:

1. We choose yuma to send the bomb to.  This is a horrible idea given he doesn't want to follow the plan, so I'm not going to discuss it.
2. We choose someone, yuma gets the bomb, sends it to someone else, and if that person is town they will give it to the person we chose, and if it's scum, they'll probably send it back to yuma.
3. yuma is scum, gives the bomb to someone, and everything goes as before.

Actually, yuma, if you just give the bomb to someone we didn't agree to, they'll just send it the person we agreed to or you gave it to scum and they'll send it right back to you.  So you not following the plan doesn't change it that much.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #270 on: May 27, 2014, 01:43:07 pm »

Hey everyone! Won't be caught up/useful until tonight, though I have been passively following this game since it started. For now, can someone tell me if yuma refusing to participate in plan(s) completely ruins them, or can we do them anyway?

I can tell you I am not refusing to participate in plans... just plans that I think are bad. I atill think we should do the no-lynch today/potato shoot tonight plan. That plan makes sense! Th others do not. And I hope my lack of participation "ruins" them, because they are already ruined, but I fear my lack of participation will not stop them from going forward...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #271 on: May 27, 2014, 01:45:31 pm »

Vote: yuma

did you have something to add to this? I am assuming you just disagree with me...

I don't disagree with you. I just think Mafia is the most motivated to not participate.

Why?

Why is mafia more likely to stick their neck out and risk the wrath of a lynch mob mentality compared to a townie who is honestly speaking their mind...?

also sudgy... did you read any of my posts?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #272 on: May 27, 2014, 01:47:21 pm »

if we no-lynch and people choose to then send the bomb to me--because they think I am scum--I will hold onto it. But if we lynch first then I WILL NOT participate
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #273 on: May 27, 2014, 01:49:48 pm »

Vote: yuma

did you have something to add to this? I am assuming you just disagree with me...

I don't disagree with you. I just think Mafia is the most motivated to not participate.

Why?

Why is mafia more likely to stick their neck out and risk the wrath of a lynch mob mentality compared to a townie who is honestly speaking their mind...?

also sudgy... did you read any of my posts?

I will admit I somewhat skimmed them (as I did most posts), but I still got what you were trying to say.  The main problem is that the longer we sit around, the more we get primed.  Say we no lynch today, then mafia decides not to send the potato to confuse us.  We get confused, nothing good happens, and we already lost someone to priming.  Mafia have some control over the potato, and that could mess us up.  Lynching is first priority, then the potato is just something extra we can do.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #274 on: May 27, 2014, 01:52:11 pm »

whatever... do whatever you want. i'll post enough to not get modkilled, but i am pretty much done with this game
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #275 on: May 27, 2014, 01:55:47 pm »

whatever... do whatever you want. i'll post enough to not get modkilled, but i am pretty much done with this game

Petulant yuma is usually town yuma, much to my extreme chagrin. I trust him not to do this sort of thing as scum, since I've now learned it's what he does as town.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #276 on: May 27, 2014, 02:07:13 pm »

I've seen a frustrated scum yuma. I'm not saying it looks the same here and I am reserving judgment. That he played the "Mafia would never do this" card makes me more suspicious.

The I'm taking my ball and going home attitude is easily Mafia publicly saying they won't be posting much more so as to not further reveal themselves and maybe attention moves elsewhere.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #277 on: May 27, 2014, 02:08:36 pm »

The I'm taking my ball and going home attitude is easily Mafia publicly saying they won't be posting much more so as to not further reveal themselves and maybe attention moves elsewhere.

Yes, but does yuma do it? I've never seen it, and have meta reasons to think he won't.

I mean, I want to vote him for playstyle. But I think he's actually more likely town.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #278 on: May 27, 2014, 02:23:23 pm »

That yuma never does this is no indicator that he is more likely to be Town... or scum for that matter. What he's doing is sufficiently scummy, however.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #279 on: May 27, 2014, 02:27:06 pm »

If yuma is scum and Voltaire is scum when yuma starts attracting votes Voltaire might try to subtly salvage the early perception before traction is gained.

If yuma is town and Voltaire is scum when yuma starts attracting votes Voltaire might try to gain some cred by either avoiding the wagon in a not-too-obvious way or start out hesitant for cred but get a later vote in to seal the mislynch.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #280 on: May 27, 2014, 02:30:50 pm »

No, I've seen yuma do this before, and he was town. Therefore yuma is more likely town.

PPE: You have not analyzed any scenarios where I am town. Why not? What are they, btw?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #281 on: May 27, 2014, 02:56:44 pm »

No, I've seen yuma do this before, and he was town. Therefore yuma is more likely town.

PPE: You have not analyzed any scenarios where I am town. Why not? What are they, btw?

Well, you are really early to the game. I have no use for considering your posts in context of where mail-mi was and mail-mi hardly posted anyway. That said, I'm scum-hunting not town hunting. I am seeking the most likely place to put a vote because I support a D1 lynch.

I would say it is slightly towny to provide meta that supports moving my vote. but as I outlined it is equally useful for scum to do this. So, I'm not sure a Towny scenario exists for you at the moment in my mind. I'm not entirely sure the onus should be on me to create one, either.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #282 on: May 27, 2014, 02:57:06 pm »

late not early, btw.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #283 on: May 27, 2014, 03:04:31 pm »

Vote: No Lynch

I think our Day 2 behavior is going to get messed up if we don't all follow the Potato strategy tonight.

I still think the item idea (all send one item to Sudgy tonight with claiming tomorrow)  is good and not as risky as it's made out to be. But everyone has to do it or else the claiming tomorrow is pointless.  Well maybe not completely pointless.  If people honestly report that they didn't send an item, we may still be able to get PoE information.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #284 on: May 27, 2014, 03:06:07 pm »

Are all the current [BOLD]Vote[/BOLD] votes real lynch votes?  We're doing something else for our potato votes, right?

Everyone bold-voting right now wants to lynch the person they're voting for? 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #285 on: May 27, 2014, 03:11:50 pm »

Do we even have time for two lynches? We spent basically the whole first day discussing theory. I'm going to Etov: faust, I don't have much in terms of actual reads but that's better than nothing.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #286 on: May 27, 2014, 03:14:51 pm »

Everyone bold-voting right now wants to lynch the person they're voting for?

I don't know how to answer this question. Are you asking whether the vote is RVS or not? If so, my vote is not RVS. Are you saying that if my vote counted heavy enough to cause a lynch do I want the hammer to fall right this second, then no, my vote is part of playing the game not some super confident make it so vote.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #287 on: May 27, 2014, 03:17:44 pm »

Everyone bold-voting right now wants to lynch the person they're voting for?

I don't know how to answer this question. Are you asking whether the vote is RVS or not? If so, my vote is not RVS. Are you saying that if my vote counted heavy enough to cause a lynch do I want the hammer to fall right this second, then no, my vote is part of playing the game not some super confident make it so vote.

No, I mean.. are any of those "hot potato" votes instead of real lynch votes.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #288 on: May 27, 2014, 03:23:10 pm »

I've seen a frustrated scum yuma. I'm not saying it looks the same here and I am reserving judgment. That he played the "Mafia would never do this" card makes me more suspicious.

The I'm taking my ball and going home attitude is easily Mafia publicly saying they won't be posting much more so as to not further reveal themselves and maybe attention moves elsewhere.

I hate that phrase... "take my ball and going home" it is insulting and I don't appreciate it.

The comparison that you are looking for is that I am on the court and no one is passing me the ball since apparently my posts are only worth skimming over before making an important executive decision.

But like I said, whatever. I don't care. Whatever people decide at this point I'll just do because if I don't people will bad mouth me and try to make me look bad for saying what I think is the best strategy. This is RMM so I really shouldn't care so much, so I am giving up on caring.

vote: archetype and then give me the hot potato. Let's just end this game faster so we can get to dice mafia
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #289 on: May 27, 2014, 03:24:27 pm »

that part wasn't phrased properly as I fear that it is insulting to EFHW.. that wasn't my intent. I like this game and the setup and the possibilties in it, but as my say is apparently less given the attitude of players in it I have kinda lost interest and part of me would want to just move on... So, sorry if I phrased that poorly EFHW!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #290 on: May 27, 2014, 03:26:38 pm »

I agree, this looks like a petulant town yuma.

Vote: Voltaire/mail-mi
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #291 on: May 27, 2014, 03:43:19 pm »

I agree, this looks like a petulant town yuma.

Vote: Voltaire/mail-mi

great.... now I am and I quote: "(of a person or their manner) childishly sulky or bad-tempered"

what a great word to call someone! How about annoyed? Or frustrated? Or disappointed? But no... Instead I get called childishly sulky and bad-tempered.

Thanks!

Alright now I am being a bit petulant here to make a point... but really I am not a fan of the discourse currently going on in this game. I feel like I have had this conversation with PPS before and maybe we shouldn't be having it now, but I really don't feel like participating in this game anymore and would out if there hadn't already been a bunch of subs
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #292 on: May 27, 2014, 03:45:04 pm »

Yuma, I did not skim your posts because I thought they weren't worth reading.  I skimmed almost everybody's posts, because I knew I needed to hurry up and contribute.

Everybody who wants to lynch someone, vote for them like normal.  Whoever wants to potato someone, say Potato: so-and-so.  I'll decide who we potato Thursday morning.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #293 on: May 27, 2014, 04:46:00 pm »

I would say it is slightly towny to provide meta that supports moving my vote. but as I outlined it is equally useful for scum to do this. So, I'm not sure a Towny scenario exists for you at the moment in my mind.

 ??? ??? ???

So I did something townie...but it could have been scum pretending to be town...so I'm scum. No other possibilities.

vote: PPS

This is an axxle-style vote. In Dice Mafia PPS set off terrible gut signals and I ignored them and he was scum. In Philosophers mafia, axxle set off (admittedly much, much smaller) signals and I ignored them and he was scum.

So I'm not going to do that anymore.

This is dangerously close to a gut D1 vote. Not my style at all.

Also, potato: yuma?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #294 on: May 27, 2014, 04:46:52 pm »

<b>Potato: PPS</b>
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #295 on: May 27, 2014, 04:47:11 pm »

Potato: PPS
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #296 on: May 27, 2014, 04:48:55 pm »

Huh?  Were those to antagonize Volt?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #297 on: May 27, 2014, 05:15:26 pm »

Not item claiming, prefer lynch + potato control.

Faust needs to be one of those two.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #298 on: May 27, 2014, 05:24:40 pm »

Not item claiming, prefer lynch + potato control.

Faust needs to be one of those two.

Have you thought of any item trading strategy (beyond not claiming now)?

I just realized I had overlooked the fact that whomever gets potato'd tonight will not be around tomorrow to say what they gave to Sudgy.  They'd have to claim what they're going to send before they die today.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #299 on: May 27, 2014, 05:27:40 pm »

I don't think the item talk/plan is pro-town.  Scum is loving it.

I think it's too easy to manipulate and too easy to get wrong when sudgy is trying to sort it.  He'll get a pile of stuff, but don't be able to assign senders with any certainty, and arguments will ensue, town will be framed, and another day will be lost not scum hunting and with no posts of significance for that purpose.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #300 on: May 27, 2014, 05:36:15 pm »

I don't think the item talk/plan is pro-town.  Scum is loving it.

I think it's too easy to manipulate and too easy to get wrong when sudgy is trying to sort it.  He'll get a pile of stuff, but don't be able to assign senders with any certainty, and arguments will ensue, town will be framed, and another day will be lost not scum hunting and with no posts of significance for that purpose.

He doesn't need to assign senders with certainty, just write down what he gets, write down what everyone claims the next day, and if there is any mismatch, we have a scum in the group of the people that sent that item.  So if 5 people claim Paper and he only gets 4, we have a set of 5 where we know scum is.  Not better than the 1/4 (well, 3/11) chance we have now, but it could lead to important identification later on.

But the argument/framing point is good.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #301 on: May 27, 2014, 05:40:17 pm »

I don't think the item talk/plan is pro-town.  Scum is loving it.

I think it's too easy to manipulate and too easy to get wrong when sudgy is trying to sort it.  He'll get a pile of stuff, but don't be able to assign senders with any certainty, and arguments will ensue, town will be framed, and another day will be lost not scum hunting and with no posts of significance for that purpose.

He doesn't need to assign senders with certainty, just write down what he gets, write down what everyone claims the next day, and if there is any mismatch, we have a scum in the group of the people that sent that item.  So if 5 people claim Paper and he only gets 4, we have a set of 5 where we know scum is.  Not better than the 1/4 (well, 3/11) chance we have now, but it could lead to important identification later on.

But the argument/framing point is good.
I'm not claiming my items, but definitally sending one to sudgy.

Why the scumread on me, Yuma?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #302 on: May 27, 2014, 05:43:18 pm »

At the END of each night, each player gets a random item (N0 TWO identical items are given to each player), evenly distributed among the 4 possible items (exact proportions will be announced if not symmetrical).

So...anyone who item-claimed, we know what they're sending sudgy.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #303 on: May 27, 2014, 05:59:57 pm »

So a thought on the bomb control situation:

I might actually be in favor of having everyone just send it to who they think is scummiest, because it's potentially very powerful if everyone who got the bomb claims who they sent it to the next day. We find out who sent the "killing blow", and that person is at least more likely than not to be mafia. We also know who got the bomb first- this person will likely be dead, but we know that anyone who DIDN'T send it to them is probably town. If the bomb bounces around a lot this has the potential to clear a lot of people. Thoughts?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #304 on: May 27, 2014, 06:07:25 pm »

So a thought on the bomb control situation:

I might actually be in favor of having everyone just send it to who they think is scummiest, because it's potentially very powerful if everyone who got the bomb claims who they sent it to the next day. We find out who sent the "killing blow", and that person is at least more likely than not to be mafia. We also know who got the bomb first- this person will likely be dead, but we know that anyone who DIDN'T send it to them is probably town. If the bomb bounces around a lot this has the potential to clear a lot of people. Thoughts?

Why is the last sender more likely than not to be Mafia?  You don't know who sent it and where it's been when you get it, right?

And isn't "We also know who got the bomb first- this person will likely be dead, but we know that anyone who DIDN'T send it to them is probably town" just a restatement of the first point?  Everyone that didn't send the bomb to the first person to get it are the people that didn't send the final blow (excepting the item that gives you an extra bomb hit.)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #305 on: May 27, 2014, 06:15:58 pm »

The first person to receive the bomb twice dies. If mafia ever gets sent the bomb, they are likely to send it to the person they originally sent it to, since they don't want to risk it coming back to them and blowing up. So if the chain is A->B->C->D->A, A dies, B C and D all claim (and if mafia lies we find out), then we know that 1) B and C probably aren't scum, because they would have automatically sent it back to A, and D is more likely to be scum, because they either happened by chance to send it to A or they knew it blow up. The information we get depends on the length of the chain, but having a longer chain might be better than deciding to send it to one person and having it end there.
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #306 on: May 27, 2014, 06:16:16 pm »

Why the scumread on me, Yuma?

Because you are scummy
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #307 on: May 27, 2014, 06:28:43 pm »

Do we even have time for two lynches? We spent basically the whole first day discussing theory. I'm going to Etov: faust, I don't have much in terms of actual reads but that's better than nothing.

It's not.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #308 on: May 27, 2014, 06:33:00 pm »

Also, I think yuma is town based on the recent exchange. ADK reviving theory discussion first was a scumtell for me, but he's actually bringing up a good point, so I'm not so sure any more.

sudgy should determine the potato kill after our lynch btw. I.e. do something like, if the lynchee is town, kill X, else, kill Y.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #309 on: May 27, 2014, 06:34:46 pm »

I don't think the item talk/plan is pro-town.  Scum is loving it.

I think it's too easy to manipulate and too easy to get wrong when sudgy is trying to sort it.  He'll get a pile of stuff, but don't be able to assign senders with any certainty, and arguments will ensue, town will be framed, and another day will be lost not scum hunting and with no posts of significance for that purpose.

He doesn't need to assign senders with certainty, just write down what he gets, write down what everyone claims the next day, and if there is any mismatch, we have a scum in the group of the people that sent that item.  So if 5 people claim Paper and he only gets 4, we have a set of 5 where we know scum is.  Not better than the 1/4 (well, 3/11) chance we have now, but it could lead to important identification later on.

But the argument/framing point is good.

Much more importantly, there are four kinds of items; assuming that scum doesn't send their items to sudgy, we will get one group with as many claimed items as were actually sent. All the players in that group would then be confirmed town. I always thought that was the main reason we're doing this.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #310 on: May 27, 2014, 06:40:42 pm »

The first person to receive the bomb twice dies. If mafia ever gets sent the bomb, they are likely to send it to the person they originally sent it to, since they don't want to risk it coming back to them and blowing up. So if the chain is A->B->C->D->A, A dies, B C and D all claim (and if mafia lies we find out), then we know that 1) B and C probably aren't scum, because they would have automatically sent it back to A, and D is more likely to be scum, because they either happened by chance to send it to A or they knew it blow up. The information we get depends on the length of the chain, but having a longer chain might be better than deciding to send it to one person and having it end there.

The problem is, mafia can manipulate this.
Say the chain really is: A->B->C->D->A, aslo suppose D and E really is mafia.
Mafia can claim that the chain went: E->A->B->C->D->A or A->B->C->D->A->E without being counterclaimed (to make D look better). Or maybe the D claimed to never recieve the bomb. Is it C or D who is lying? Or maybe D will take the risk and send the bomb to someone else than A. How much towncred should we give them for that? Remember that A would probably be the IC. Mafia could make a roleblocker and kill the IC tonight so that he cannot claim what items he recieved. We cannot stop them from doing this (except by planning to bomb a townie, who holds on tho the bomb), but with the other bomb plan, we will at least know one mafia for sure if they do kill Sudgy.

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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #311 on: May 27, 2014, 06:42:40 pm »

Vote: PPS
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #312 on: May 27, 2014, 06:46:24 pm »

vote: PPS

potato: PPS
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #313 on: May 27, 2014, 06:50:37 pm »

I don't think the item talk/plan is pro-town.  Scum is loving it.

I think it's too easy to manipulate and too easy to get wrong when sudgy is trying to sort it.  He'll get a pile of stuff, but don't be able to assign senders with any certainty, and arguments will ensue, town will be framed, and another day will be lost not scum hunting and with no posts of significance for that purpose.

He doesn't need to assign senders with certainty, just write down what he gets, write down what everyone claims the next day, and if there is any mismatch, we have a scum in the group of the people that sent that item.  So if 5 people claim Paper and he only gets 4, we have a set of 5 where we know scum is.  Not better than the 1/4 (well, 3/11) chance we have now, but it could lead to important identification later on.

But the argument/framing point is good.

Much more importantly, there are four kinds of items; assuming that scum doesn't send their items to sudgy, we will get one group with as many claimed items as were actually sent. All the players in that group would then be confirmed town. I always thought that was the main reason we're doing this.

And if one scum sends items to Sudgy, and two does not, we get no new ICs.
Likewise, If all scum sends items to themselfs, and kill Sudgy (It can happen if we do not bomb a townie), we get no ICs at all. (And no items)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #314 on: May 27, 2014, 06:56:07 pm »

Also, potato: yuma?

We are not potatoing yuma here, because he'll just send it away.  If we want to kill him, we need to lynch him.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #315 on: May 27, 2014, 06:57:42 pm »

Vote Count 1.4

faust (1): ashersky
pingpongsam (4): Jimmmmm, Voltaire, xeiron, yuma
XerxesPraelor (2): faust, Archetype
no lynch (2): A Drowned Kernel, Witherweaver
yuma (1): sudgy
Voltaire (1): pingpongsam

not voting (1): XerxesPraelor

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.  Deadline is Thursday, May 29th at 8 pm
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faust

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #316 on: May 27, 2014, 07:10:39 pm »

And if one scum sends items to Sudgy, and two does not, we get no new ICs.
Likewise, If all scum sends items to themselfs, and kill Sudgy (It can happen if we do not bomb a townie), we get no ICs at all. (And no items)

Yes, but if one scum sends an item to sudgy, one scum player just sent an item to town, that's a benefit right there.

Having said that, there is the problem that sudgy might die. The best way to prevent that is use the bomb. A plan where we would send items to two players would be less riskier in that sense though.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #317 on: May 27, 2014, 07:12:26 pm »

I don't really get why people would potato-vote for players other than those they are also voting for.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #318 on: May 27, 2014, 08:29:29 pm »

I don't really get why people would potato-vote for players other than those they are also voting for.

Because people want a lynch and a potato kill and it doesn't make any sense for those to be the same person. But I'm against a lynch if we do use the potato kill.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #319 on: May 27, 2014, 08:58:10 pm »

Why the scumread on me, Yuma?

Because you are scummy
Well

Ok, problem: Scum sends the Bomb to sudgy. Sudgy sends it to a different Mafia. They then send it back to sudgy.

Yuma says he doesn't want to play, so why not have everyone give it to him and blow himself up? It saves sudgy and takes out someone who doesn't want to play. And if he's scum, even better.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #320 on: May 27, 2014, 09:14:20 pm »

I don't think the item talk/plan is pro-town.  Scum is loving it.

I think it's too easy to manipulate and too easy to get wrong when sudgy is trying to sort it.  He'll get a pile of stuff, but don't be able to assign senders with any certainty, and arguments will ensue, town will be framed, and another day will be lost not scum hunting and with no posts of significance for that purpose.

Item claiming is great if people participate. But you're right, if people refuse to, it's sucky.
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #321 on: May 27, 2014, 09:33:16 pm »

Why the scumread on me, Yuma?

Because you are scummy
Well

Ok, problem: Scum sends the Bomb to sudgy. Sudgy sends it to a different Mafia. They then send it back to sudgy.

Yuma says he doesn't want to play, so why not have everyone give it to him and blow himself up? It saves sudgy and takes out someone who doesn't want to play. And if he's scum, even better.

Me being not very interested in the game is a horrible reason to just kill me if you are still interested in the game and want to win. Hence another reason for me to find you scummy--trying to find an excuse to take someone out of the game who is town under the pretext of getting rid of someone who doesn't care.

And again, I have said this multiple times, I WILL NOT just blow myself up! I might not care about the game that much, but I respect that others do and will not just screw them all over because my apathy. Sheesh! Why would you even suggest that? That plan only benefits scum, which yes, I don't really care personally, but you if you are town certainly should!

However, if we stick to the plan I have suggested before (we obviously aren't going to though) and no-lynch and if people really want to potato me because they think I am scum then, sure I will eat the potato for the sake of town. But I WILL NOT if we lynch someone else first as I have stated previously.
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faust

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #322 on: May 28, 2014, 05:55:34 am »

I don't really get why people would potato-vote for players other than those they are also voting for.

Because people want a lynch and a potato kill and it doesn't make any sense for those to be the same person. But I'm against a lynch if we do use the potato kill.

What I mean is: you wnat to take out the person you find most scummy, so you vote for them. But you voting for them doesn't mean they get automatically lynched. So if they don't get lynched, you still should want them dead over everyone else, right? And no one of us know if their lynch candidate will be the one lynched today. I, for example, want to lynch Xerxes, but it doesn't seem to happen, so of course, I also want to blow him up.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #323 on: May 28, 2014, 06:01:31 am »

<b>Potato: PPS</b>
Nobody mentioned this?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #324 on: May 28, 2014, 07:55:55 am »

<b>Potato: PPS</b>
Nobody mentioned this?

You did. I'm not sure who to potato, seeing as a Potato vote isn't an actual lynch vote and we are nowhere near consensus anyway it's a way to participate without assigning the potato somewhere I don't want to see it go. I know the outcome if I receive it, also, if I do I have the option to send it where I want. If you really think I'm scum you would be a fool to send me the potato. Otherwise, I could take one for the team to give my reads more credence.

I'm starting to agree with yuma that Archetype looks scummy but I feel more strongly that Voltaire is. I am near positive yuma is Town.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #325 on: May 28, 2014, 09:30:33 am »

The first person to receive the bomb twice dies. If mafia ever gets sent the bomb, they are likely to send it to the person they originally sent it to, since they don't want to risk it coming back to them and blowing up. So if the chain is A->B->C->D->A, A dies, B C and D all claim (and if mafia lies we find out), then we know that 1) B and C probably aren't scum, because they would have automatically sent it back to A, and D is more likely to be scum, because they either happened by chance to send it to A or they knew it blow up. The information we get depends on the length of the chain, but having a longer chain might be better than deciding to send it to one person and having it end there.

Okay, this makes sense.  But, is it that much more likely for Mafia to get sent the bomb than the same person getting sent it twice?  I guess if we send randomly, yes, it's three times more likely.  But if many people have scum reads on a town member, then he can get the bomb twice pretty easily.  That could lead us to a mislynch situation the next day.

However, having these records day over day could prove useful.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #326 on: May 28, 2014, 09:32:01 am »

<b>Potato: PPS</b>
Nobody mentioned this?

I did (the "is that to antagonize Volt?" question that got no response).  Volt had just made a comment about the hazards of ignoring classic scum tells, and Pingpong "QT slips" and "votes" for himself, classic scum/antitown behavior.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #327 on: May 28, 2014, 09:35:14 am »

How is a potato vote a lynch vote? giving me the potato does not mean I by necessity die.

Get a grip.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #328 on: May 28, 2014, 09:35:52 am »

I don't think the item talk/plan is pro-town.  Scum is loving it.

I think it's too easy to manipulate and too easy to get wrong when sudgy is trying to sort it.  He'll get a pile of stuff, but don't be able to assign senders with any certainty, and arguments will ensue, town will be framed, and another day will be lost not scum hunting and with no posts of significance for that purpose.

He doesn't need to assign senders with certainty, just write down what he gets, write down what everyone claims the next day, and if there is any mismatch, we have a scum in the group of the people that sent that item.  So if 5 people claim Paper and he only gets 4, we have a set of 5 where we know scum is.  Not better than the 1/4 (well, 3/11) chance we have now, but it could lead to important identification later on.

But the argument/framing point is good.

Much more importantly, there are four kinds of items; assuming that scum doesn't send their items to sudgy, we will get one group with as many claimed items as were actually sent. All the players in that group would then be confirmed town. I always thought that was the main reason we're doing this.

Well, yes, this makes it bad for them to not send their items to Sudgy.  But, some still could and hide in the "confirmed town" group. 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #329 on: May 28, 2014, 09:36:28 am »

How is a potato vote a lynch vote? giving me the potato does not mean I by necessity die.

Get a grip.

Was that to me?  Because we're thinking in terms of Ash's plan, where the potato vote really is a "this person is going to die" vote.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #330 on: May 28, 2014, 09:38:25 am »

Why the scumread on me, Yuma?

Because you are scummy
Well

Ok, problem: Scum sends the Bomb to sudgy. Sudgy sends it to a different Mafia. They then send it back to sudgy.

Yuma says he doesn't want to play, so why not have everyone give it to him and blow himself up? It saves sudgy and takes out someone who doesn't want to play. And if he's scum, even better.

<b>Potato: Archetype</b>

This seems like a really convenient justification for getting rid of someone.
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faust

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #331 on: May 28, 2014, 09:39:22 am »

I don't think the item talk/plan is pro-town.  Scum is loving it.

I think it's too easy to manipulate and too easy to get wrong when sudgy is trying to sort it.  He'll get a pile of stuff, but don't be able to assign senders with any certainty, and arguments will ensue, town will be framed, and another day will be lost not scum hunting and with no posts of significance for that purpose.

He doesn't need to assign senders with certainty, just write down what he gets, write down what everyone claims the next day, and if there is any mismatch, we have a scum in the group of the people that sent that item.  So if 5 people claim Paper and he only gets 4, we have a set of 5 where we know scum is.  Not better than the 1/4 (well, 3/11) chance we have now, but it could lead to important identification later on.

But the argument/framing point is good.

Much more importantly, there are four kinds of items; assuming that scum doesn't send their items to sudgy, we will get one group with as many claimed items as were actually sent. All the players in that group would then be confirmed town. I always thought that was the main reason we're doing this.

Well, yes, this makes it bad for them to not send their items to Sudgy.  But, some still could and hide in the "confirmed town" group.

I don't understand. How would that be possible?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #332 on: May 28, 2014, 09:40:11 am »

How is a potato vote a lynch vote? giving me the potato does not mean I by necessity die.

Get a grip.

Was that to me?  Because we're thinking in terms of Ash's plan, where the potato vote really is a "this person is going to die" vote.

Yes, it is to you. I have already explained why I potato voted myself. Just because I add my vote to the mix does not mean I intend to follow the plan. I may and I may not, I won't know for sure until we get through the day... if I'm alive... and if I receive the potato.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #333 on: May 28, 2014, 09:42:31 am »

I don't think the item talk/plan is pro-town.  Scum is loving it.

I think it's too easy to manipulate and too easy to get wrong when sudgy is trying to sort it.  He'll get a pile of stuff, but don't be able to assign senders with any certainty, and arguments will ensue, town will be framed, and another day will be lost not scum hunting and with no posts of significance for that purpose.

He doesn't need to assign senders with certainty, just write down what he gets, write down what everyone claims the next day, and if there is any mismatch, we have a scum in the group of the people that sent that item.  So if 5 people claim Paper and he only gets 4, we have a set of 5 where we know scum is.  Not better than the 1/4 (well, 3/11) chance we have now, but it could lead to important identification later on.

But the argument/framing point is good.

Much more importantly, there are four kinds of items; assuming that scum doesn't send their items to sudgy, we will get one group with as many claimed items as were actually sent. All the players in that group would then be confirmed town. I always thought that was the main reason we're doing this.

Well, yes, this makes it bad for them to not send their items to Sudgy.  But, some still could and hide in the "confirmed town" group.

I don't understand. How would that be possible?

Um.. There are three Mafia.  1 chooses to keep his items, another chooses to send to the first, and the third sends to Sudgy.  Each claims something sent, third being true.  If first two don't claim the same item in the third group, that group is correctly checksumed and the third Mafia member is cleared as town. 
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faust

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #334 on: May 28, 2014, 09:46:45 am »

Um.. There are three Mafia.  1 chooses to keep his items, another chooses to send to the first, and the third sends to Sudgy.  Each claims something sent, third being true.  If first two don't claim the same item in the third group, that group is correctly checksumed and the third Mafia member is cleared as town.

Yeah, of course. If sudgy receives more items than there are town members, we shouldn't assume that anyone is "cleared as town". The wording is a bit confusing here.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #335 on: May 28, 2014, 09:51:13 am »

How is a potato vote a lynch vote? giving me the potato does not mean I by necessity die.

Get a grip.

Was that to me?  Because we're thinking in terms of Ash's plan, where the potato vote really is a "this person is going to die" vote.

Yes, it is to you. I have already explained why I potato voted myself. Just because I add my vote to the mix does not mean I intend to follow the plan. I may and I may not, I won't know for sure until we get through the day... if I'm alive... and if I receive the potato.

So I was responding to stuff before your explanation, and Xerxes had asked if no one responded to it.  So I was explaining that I responded to it, what I responded, and why. 

But, Potato voting for yourself and not following the plan is questionable.  Mafia might want everyone to send them the bomb, because then they can blow up who they want to. (Mafia1 -> TownA ->VotedMafia ->TownA.)  VotedMafia can argue that we didn't agree to follow the plan and he was just sending it to who he thought was scummiest.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #336 on: May 28, 2014, 09:56:44 am »

But, Potato voting for yourself and not following the plan is questionable.  Mafia might want everyone to send them the bomb, because then they can blow up who they want to. (Mafia1 -> TownA ->VotedMafia ->TownA.)  VotedMafia can argue that we didn't agree to follow the plan and he was just sending it to who he thought was scummiest.

That's one way to look at it. I am very interested to see what item I receive tonight before I commit to a plan. I would not mind being the recipient of the bomb in order to more effectively commit to a course of action. If I had more certainty as to who was actually Mafia I'm not so sure I could potato vote them because they are sure to pass it.
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #337 on: May 28, 2014, 11:04:02 am »

<b>Potato: PPS</b>
Nobody mentioned this?

scumslips don't exist. But if you mean PPS wanting to potato himself, then I voted for him because of it...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #338 on: May 28, 2014, 11:09:42 am »

because I see it as the equivilant of a self-vote...

And I see PPS is saying that it isn't the same, but I am not really following the argument for it... but I guess it makes sense to him so...

vote: archetype

potato: archetype
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #339 on: May 28, 2014, 11:43:35 am »

I'm starting to agree with yuma that Archetype looks scummy but I feel more strongly that Voltaire is. I am near positive yuma is Town.

At least we agree on one thing.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #340 on: May 28, 2014, 01:40:28 pm »

To help move towards a lynch, everyone please post who your scumreads are and why.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #341 on: May 28, 2014, 06:41:56 pm »

To help move towards a lynch, everyone please post who your scumreads are and why.

arch cause he is just generally scummy and wanted to use a lame meta reason to get me out of the game
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #342 on: May 28, 2014, 09:28:30 pm »

I see no conceivable way that we are going to get both a lynch and a potato with consensus through by tomorrow given the current state of activity. If I, who am rather apathetic at this point, am the most active person it just isn't going to happen in a way positive for town. I recommend we revert back to the no-lynch plan and just potato someone tonight. If mafia doesn't want to play ball and doesn't send the potato, then we just lynch said person tomorrow and assume they were mafia (sure mafia gets to prime, but priming ain't that great anyway)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #343 on: May 28, 2014, 11:58:06 pm »

SERIOUSLY!!!

The day before deadline and there are zero posts from between the hours of 2 pm and 11 pm except for three by me.

vote: no-lynch

the number one thing that we do not want is to lynch and then go into night w/o a plan as mafia can then just get a free kill in addition to their prime.

And we should send the potato to archetype.

sudgy you need to take control of this game!

I know people have been online in the last few hours. I am calling you out! WW (is online right now), voltaire, ashersky, jimmmm (is online right now), ADK (is online right now and looking at the thread), Archetype (is online right now!) and that is just cause I have seen you post elsewhere...

What is going on?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #344 on: May 29, 2014, 12:05:33 am »

SERIOUSLY!!!

The day before deadline and there are zero posts from between the hours of 2 pm and 11 pm except for three by me.

I guess that's what happens when you decide to no-lynch.

Having said that, Vote: no-lynch

Potato: faust
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #345 on: May 29, 2014, 12:06:32 am »

post count:

1. PPS - 38
2. voltaire - 8 (subbed in)
3. Archetype - 17
4. yuma - 48
5. faust - 36
6. sudgy - 7 (subbed in)
7. Xerxespraelor - 11
8. Witherweaver - 43
9. A Drowned Kernel - 24
10. xeiron - 11
11. Jimmmmm - 15
12. ashersky - 35

so really people have been posting just not in the last 2 days when it is the most important time to post and get things going. It is like once I and sudgy said, "time to scumhunt" everyone disappeared?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #346 on: May 29, 2014, 12:08:18 am »

SERIOUSLY!!!

The day before deadline and there are zero posts from between the hours of 2 pm and 11 pm except for three by me.

I guess that's what happens when you decide to no-lynch.

Having said that, Vote: no-lynch

Potato: faust

We hadn't decided to no-lynch! I caved in to what other people demanded and agreed to do what the others said. I didn't like it, but sudgy made a decision and once that decision was made to lynch and potato then everybody went poof! But, yeah, now we don't have a choice and the people who went poof need to be accountable come tomorrow and tonight!

why faust? I disagree with that choice.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #347 on: May 29, 2014, 12:14:17 am »

This game just turned into a total morass of theory talk and I'm finding it difficult to get reads on anyone. I find faust and PPS scummy, but that's mostly a gut read. I would be okay lynching literally almost anyone at this point. Probably not Yuma. xeiron's been pretty lurky. I'm going to stick with my vote on no lynch and

potato vote: xeiron
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #348 on: May 29, 2014, 12:22:27 am »

Why the scumread on me, Yuma?

Because you are scummy
Well

Ok, problem: Scum sends the Bomb to sudgy. Sudgy sends it to a different Mafia. They then send it back to sudgy.

Yuma says he doesn't want to play, so why not have everyone give it to him and blow himself up? It saves sudgy and takes out someone who does he doesn't want to play. And if he's scum, even better.

<b>Potato: Archetype</b>

This seems like a really convenient justification for getting rid of someone.
Or the solution to the sudgy problem. Yuma wanted to "get on to dice mafia", so why does he suddenly lose interest and then regain it? I think it's because he sees he's getting some towncred for it, so he comes back.

Vote: XerxesPraelor


Potatoe: Xerxes

Xerxes/Yuma are really the only two people who've seemed scummy. There has just been so much theory talk that everyone else is null. I guess xeiron is my biggest townread, but that's mostly because he agrees with me on the lynch/potatoe thing.

If Xerxes is lynched and flips scum, I'm willing to be Potatoed to save sudgy.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #349 on: May 29, 2014, 12:27:44 am »

I don't agree that Yuma is scummy.  This seems much to genuinely frustrated, and things being chaotic and without a plan would only benefit scum.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #350 on: May 29, 2014, 12:29:47 am »

If we follow the potato plan, and auto lynch the votee tomorrow if he doesn't die, then if it goes MafiaStart -> Sudgy -> MafiaThatWasVotedFor -> Sudgy, then MafiaThatWasVotedFor dies tomorrow, and a 1-1 trade is not good. 

Sudgy is only in danger if we don't follow Ash's plan.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #351 on: May 29, 2014, 12:35:07 am »

I'll decide tomorrow who to potato.  You people haven't been posting scumreads, so I don't really know what to do right now.

EFHW: What happens if there is no majority by deadline?  The rules say it is up to the mod's discretion right now.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #352 on: May 29, 2014, 12:37:01 am »

I find Archetype scummy for suggesting that Yuma be killed for expressing disinterest and frustration.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #353 on: May 29, 2014, 01:27:10 am »

Are we voting for the potato or are we letting sudgy decide?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #354 on: May 29, 2014, 02:28:42 am »

If we follow the potato plan, and auto lynch the votee tomorrow if he doesn't die, then if it goes MafiaStart -> Sudgy -> MafiaThatWasVotedFor -> Sudgy, then MafiaThatWasVotedFor dies tomorrow, and a 1-1 trade is not good. 

Sudgy is only in danger if we don't follow Ash's plan.

A 1 for 1 is good - there's more town than Mafia, so we can spare people more.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #355 on: May 29, 2014, 03:08:26 am »

I continue to call for Faust's head.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #356 on: May 29, 2014, 04:07:19 am »

Are we voting for the potato or are we letting sudgy decide?

We will probably not have time to get a full potato wagon, so Sudgy should decide based on our votes.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #357 on: May 29, 2014, 04:12:06 am »

Pref:

Lynch Faust, potato PPS

If not, then:

No lynch, potato PPS
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #358 on: May 29, 2014, 04:22:17 am »

I fint pps the most scummy person around, but that is based on a gut read. I have no case to make.

Ashersky seems to be playing similar to his scum self, but he plays mostly the same as both scum or town, so I could be mistaken there.

I do not find Archetype particulary scummy. Nor anyone else, really. I have a hard time forming reads i this game.

I like my vote on pps. I do not like the thougth of potatoing him, since he does not seems to agree to the plan of holding on the the bomb when he recieves it. Better to lynch him.

<b>potato: ashersky</b>



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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #359 on: May 29, 2014, 06:45:06 am »

If we follow the potato plan, and auto lynch the votee tomorrow if he doesn't die, then if it goes MafiaStart -> Sudgy -> MafiaThatWasVotedFor -> Sudgy, then MafiaThatWasVotedFor dies tomorrow, and a 1-1 trade is not good. 

Sudgy is only in danger if we don't follow Ash's plan.

A 1 for 1 is good - there's more town than Mafia, so we can spare people more.

No no, 1 for 1 is not good from Mafia perspective, hence they won't choose to do it, even to get rid of IC.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #360 on: May 29, 2014, 08:18:15 am »

So, everyone is wringing their hands over the crisis of a lack of scumhunting and no clear D1 lynch largely due to lack of votes and posting.

It begins to crystallize that PPS is a favored kill despite the fact that he has the most posts, has maintained a vote the entire game, is opposed to no-lynch and is willing to participate in the item sending and potato plan with some reservations depending on what he receives at night.

PPS has made a point to leverage his votes for reactions and has moved it accordingly in his way of scumhunting while most everyone else has either lurked or just acted butthurt.

Yep, this guy seems like the best guy to remove from the game... if you're scum and you want better control over the game.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #361 on: May 29, 2014, 08:36:30 am »

If I wasn't so sure faust was scum, I'd policy vote you for the word "butthurt."  it's just such an annoying word.  Terrible.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #362 on: May 29, 2014, 08:44:26 am »

Case in point.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #363 on: May 29, 2014, 09:01:35 am »

I want PPS to be dead. So he's my real vote and/or potato vote.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #364 on: May 29, 2014, 09:05:07 am »

I don't understand why PPS is scummy.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #365 on: May 29, 2014, 09:08:39 am »

I don't understand why PPS is scummy.


Here is the logical answer as I see it:

I want PPS to be dead. So he's my real vote and/or potato vote.
Yep, this guy seems like the best guy to remove from the game... if you're scum and you want better control over the game.
Vote: Voltaire/mail-mi

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #366 on: May 29, 2014, 09:27:18 am »

I don't understand why PPS is scummy.


Here is the logical answer as I see it:

I want PPS to be dead. So he's my real vote and/or potato vote.
Yep, this guy seems like the best guy to remove from the game... if you're scum and you want better control over the game.
Vote: Voltaire/mail-mi

Why did you vote Voltaire in the first place after, like, his first post?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #367 on: May 29, 2014, 09:49:05 am »

If yuma is scum and Voltaire is scum when yuma starts attracting votes Voltaire might try to subtly salvage the early perception before traction is gained.

If yuma is town and Voltaire is scum when yuma starts attracting votes Voltaire might try to gain some cred by either avoiding the wagon in a not-too-obvious way or start out hesitant for cred but get a later vote in to seal the mislynch.

You have not analyzed any scenarios where I am town. Why not? What are they, btw?

I would say it is slightly towny to provide meta that supports moving my vote. but as I outlined it is equally useful for scum to do this. So, I'm not sure a Towny scenario exists for you at the moment in my mind. I'm not entirely sure the onus should be on me to create one, either.this is an invitation for voltaire to provide a Town context

instead I got:

So I did something townie...but it could have been scum pretending to be town...so I'm scum. No other possibilities.

vote: PPS

Wherein he quoted me but removed the bit about the onus not being on me to argue him to be Town which I would term Town-hunting and not scum-hunting. So, yeah, he voted me for scum-hunting while refusing to argue the allegations.
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #368 on: May 29, 2014, 09:51:09 am »

So, everyone is wringing their hands over the crisis of a lack of scumhunting and no clear D1 lynch largely due to lack of votes and posting.

It begins to crystallize that PPS is a favored kill despite the fact that he has the most posts, has maintained a vote the entire game, is opposed to no-lynch and is willing to participate in the item sending and potato plan with some reservations depending on what he receives at night.

PPS has made a point to leverage his votes for reactions and has moved it accordingly in his way of scumhunting while most everyone else has either lurked or just acted butthurt.

Yep, this guy seems like the best guy to remove from the game... if you're scum and you want better control over the game.

thanks again
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #369 on: May 29, 2014, 09:53:16 am »

If I wasn't so sure faust was scum, I'd policy vote you for the word "butthurt."  it's just such an annoying word.  Terrible.

agreed, absolutely. I don't think you are scum and don't want you to die, right now I just think you aren't thinking through with all of your remarks and as a result are not maintaining a civil tone.   
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #370 on: May 29, 2014, 09:55:19 am »

Or the solution to the sudgy problem. Yuma wanted to "get on to dice mafia", so why does he suddenly lose interest and then regain it? I think it's because he sees he's getting some towncred for it, so he comes back.

this is so ridiculous... #whatdoyouwantfromme?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #371 on: May 29, 2014, 11:52:43 am »

If yuma is scum and Voltaire is scum when yuma starts attracting votes Voltaire might try to subtly salvage the early perception before traction is gained.

If yuma is town and Voltaire is scum when yuma starts attracting votes Voltaire might try to gain some cred by either avoiding the wagon in a not-too-obvious way or start out hesitant for cred but get a later vote in to seal the mislynch.

You have not analyzed any scenarios where I am town. Why not? What are they, btw?

I would say it is slightly towny to provide meta that supports moving my vote. but as I outlined it is equally useful for scum to do this. So, I'm not sure a Towny scenario exists for you at the moment in my mind. I'm not entirely sure the onus should be on me to create one, either.this is an invitation for voltaire to provide a Town context

instead I got:

So I did something townie...but it could have been scum pretending to be town...so I'm scum. No other possibilities.

vote: PPS

Wherein he quoted me but removed the bit about the onus not being on me to argue him to be Town which I would term Town-hunting and not scum-hunting. So, yeah, he voted me for scum-hunting while refusing to argue the allegations.

Well okay, but that's reading quite a lot into his very first post of substance.  I don't think Voltaire saying Yuma is town is indicative of Voltaire's alignment at all.  It could simply be what Voltaire thinks. 

And I don't really see what you're saying about his response to you.  He did essentially address it, by saying that your statements imply that he's acting townie, and you're using that to deduce that he is scum.  You saying it's equally indicative of town and scum means there already is a town scenario. 

(Removed subscripts because they're hard to read.)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #372 on: May 29, 2014, 12:07:36 pm »

Potato Vote 1.final (including "I want to potato this person" and such):

PPS (3): PPS, ashersky, Voltaire
Archetype (2): Witherweaver, yuma
faust (1): Jimmmmm
xeiron (1): ADK
Xerxes (1): Archetype
ashersky (1): xeiron

Due to popular vote (barely) and because I was thinking of it myself, we will potato PPS.

Now let's lynch.  I might not be around right at deadline, but we should try to lynch before then anyway.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #373 on: May 29, 2014, 12:08:13 pm »

I don't want to lynch yuma anymore, so I'll Unvote.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #374 on: May 29, 2014, 12:11:16 pm »

There seems to be some strenuous dissuasion that I be voting Voltaire. I see no similar effort against other votes. I am alone in my vote, there is no wagon, why the concern?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #375 on: May 29, 2014, 12:13:40 pm »

I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned. Archetype is far and away the most frequent D1 mislynch. He's also practically always read scum when he isn't even when he is not D1 mislynched. That he appears scummy today is perfectly within meta.

I agree with all the sentiments against Archetype thus I might be willing to vote Archetype but with a huge reservation.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #376 on: May 29, 2014, 12:17:07 pm »

I just reread Archetype and faust and didn't find anything bad about them.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #377 on: May 29, 2014, 12:17:32 pm »

There seems to be some strenuous dissuasion that I be voting Voltaire. I see no similar effort against other votes. I am alone in my vote, there is no wagon, why the concern?

That wasn't it actually.  I originally asked why you were scummy, but only you responded in regards to Voltaire, so that's how we got on Voltaire.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #378 on: May 29, 2014, 12:21:51 pm »

Potato Vote 1.final (including "I want to potato this person" and such):

PPS (3): PPS, ashersky, Voltaire
Archetype (2): Witherweaver, yuma
faust (1): Jimmmmm
xeiron (1): ADK
Xerxes (1): Archetype
ashersky (1): xeiron

Due to popular vote (barely) and because I was thinking of it myself, we will potato PPS.

Now let's lynch.  I might not be around right at deadline, but we should try to lynch before then anyway.

I dispute this! PPS is voting for himself, if you take away that then he would be even with archetype. And it should be arch over PPS. getting rid of an active contributer over a barely posting lurker with horrible reasons for wanting to lynch me is horrible! think this over sudgy
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #379 on: May 29, 2014, 12:23:47 pm »

I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned. Archetype is far and away the most frequent D1 mislynch. He's also practically always read scum when he isn't even when he is not D1 mislynched. That he appears scummy today is perfectly within meta.

I agree with all the sentiments against Archetype thus I might be willing to vote Archetype but with a huge reservation.

I agree there is a reservation. But I have said this to archetype time and time again and nothing has changed... that it is his responsibility to stop being so scummy as town, not our responsibility to try and figure it out! He has acknowledged this in the past and said he was going to try to be less scummy as town. It isn't happening here, so I think he is scum
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #380 on: May 29, 2014, 12:24:07 pm »

I just reread Archetype and faust and didn't find anything bad about them.

Bah!
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sudgy

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #381 on: May 29, 2014, 12:28:26 pm »

Post count (including pre-game posts because I'm lazy)

PPS: 44
mail-mi: 5 Voltaire: 9
Archetype: 18
yuma: 54
chairs: 9 sudgy: 11
Xerxes: 12
Witherweaver: 51
ADK: 26
Xeiron: 21
Jimmmmm: 16
ash: 76

I would be fine lynching any of the lurkers (Arch, Xerxes, xeiron, Jim) because I don't know who else to lynch.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #382 on: May 29, 2014, 12:29:24 pm »

Sudgy, why do you want lynch over no lynch?  Apologies if you've explained before.  (I don't want to spark a theory debate, I just want to hear what you're thinking.)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #383 on: May 29, 2014, 12:33:21 pm »

sudgy I just did a post count... and one that was more accurate. Ash doesn't have that many posts. half that many in fact.

Do you have some sort of "block posts from yuma" feature on your computer?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #384 on: May 29, 2014, 12:53:27 pm »

sudgy I just did a post count... and one that was more accurate. Ash doesn't have that many posts. half that many in fact.

Oops, I forgot to check if he had both an iso and goko username.

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Do you have some sort of "block posts from yuma" feature on your computer?

No, I remember that, I just thought that more people have posted since then.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #385 on: May 29, 2014, 12:54:00 pm »

Sudgy, why do you want lynch over no lynch?  Apologies if you've explained before.  (I don't want to spark a theory debate, I just want to hear what you're thinking.)

Two main reasons:

1. It's a town-controlled kill.  Those are how we win.
2. It gives less time to the Arsonist.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #386 on: May 29, 2014, 12:55:50 pm »

Sudgy, why do you want lynch over no lynch?  Apologies if you've explained before.  (I don't want to spark a theory debate, I just want to hear what you're thinking.)

Two main reasons:

1. It's a town-controlled kill.  Those are how we win.
2. It gives less time to the Arsonist.

and less time for town-controlled investigations. town-controlled kills in the dark accomplish nothing unless you want to win based off blind luck
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #387 on: May 29, 2014, 12:56:32 pm »

Sudgy, why do you want lynch over no lynch?  Apologies if you've explained before.  (I don't want to spark a theory debate, I just want to hear what you're thinking.)

Two main reasons:

1. It's a town-controlled kill.  Those are how we win.
2. It gives less time to the Arsonist.

and less time for town-controlled investigations. town-controlled kills in the dark accomplish nothing unless you want to win based off blind luck

There's the other reasons you don't want to do a no-lynch on D1 anyway, like interactions, etc.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #388 on: May 29, 2014, 12:58:32 pm »

sudgy i have disagreed with you on every single issue that has come up. I am trying to figure out why that is. Do you think that your suspicion is clouding your judgement of the situation because you don't trust my recommendations and reads?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #389 on: May 29, 2014, 12:59:43 pm »

I've reconsidered the potato theory.

Potato: archetype unless we are going to lynch him at which point I say we potato Voltaire.

I'm also, going to side with yuma's arguments even though my gut says NO!!! Vote: Archetype
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #390 on: May 29, 2014, 01:00:40 pm »

Sudgy, why do you want lynch over no lynch?  Apologies if you've explained before.  (I don't want to spark a theory debate, I just want to hear what you're thinking.)

Two main reasons:

1. It's a town-controlled kill.  Those are how we win.
2. It gives less time to the Arsonist.

and less time for town-controlled investigations. town-controlled kills in the dark accomplish nothing unless you want to win based off blind luck

There's the other reasons you don't want to do a no-lynch on D1 anyway, like interactions, etc.

sure... but this isn't a normal game. We are going to get those interactions and flips via the potato (and if that doesn't happen then via the lynch of the potato target tomorrow).

Right now I see town scrambling to try and get two people dead by tonight. I don't trust town at all in this game, the inactivity the lack of reads, and everything else spells two town deaths via town come tomorrow and everyone tomorrow will say "I was just doing what the IC told me to do" and we will have nothing to go off and have to start over but down two townies...

If this were a normal game, then yes no-lynch would be bad. but this isn't a normal game!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #391 on: May 29, 2014, 01:01:59 pm »

sudgy i have disagreed with you on every single issue that has come up. I am trying to figure out why that is. Do you think that your suspicion is clouding your judgement of the situation because you don't trust my recommendations and reads?

Every time I have disagreed with you has been completely different, with each one not affecting the other.  I just so happen to be disagreeing with you on everything.

I'm going to Vote: Archetype anyway for lurking, and it seems like that's what others are doing.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #392 on: May 29, 2014, 01:02:57 pm »

I would argue that potato is not getting anyone dead "by tonight" and possibly not even dead the next day.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #393 on: May 29, 2014, 01:04:02 pm »

Another reason to lynch is that scum might not use the bomb in certain situations.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #394 on: May 29, 2014, 01:06:01 pm »

If we're really going to lynch and use the potato bomb, then I think xeiron and/or arch is a fine choice for either. Since sudgy's voting for arch I'm fine sheeping him.

Vote: archetype
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sudgy

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #395 on: May 29, 2014, 01:06:53 pm »

If we're really going to lynch and use the potato bomb, then I think xeiron and/or arch is a fine choice for either. Since sudgy's voting for arch I'm fine sheeping him.

Vote: archetype

I'm still going to hold you accountable for your vote despite sheeping me.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #396 on: May 29, 2014, 01:17:08 pm »

Potato: ADK
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #397 on: May 29, 2014, 02:26:34 pm »

Vote Count 1.5

faust (1): ashersky
pingpongsam (2): Voltaire, xeiron
XerxesPraelor (2): faust, Archetype
no lynch (3): Witherweaver, yuma, Jimmmmm
Archetype (3): pingpongsam, sudgy, A Drowned Kernel

not voting (1): XerxesPraelor

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.  Deadline is TONIGHT at 8 pm

If a majority is not reached at deadline, there will be a no lynch.

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #398 on: May 29, 2014, 02:27:44 pm »

I've reconsidered the potato theory.

Potato: archetype unless we are going to lynch him at which point I say we potato Voltaire.

I'm also, going to side with yuma's arguments even though my gut says NO!!! Vote: Archetype

Potato: ADK

Interesting that as soon as I say we are potatoing you, you start trying to potato someone else.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #399 on: May 29, 2014, 03:01:47 pm »

Another reason to lynch is that scum might not use the bomb in certain situations.

sudgy you haven't responded to any of my points.

instead you just keep bringing up new points to which I respond to and you then ignore and move past by bringing up another point elsewhere

if scum does not use the bomb then that is great! we just lynch the player that should have been bombed day2 and all mafia can do is prime

I am going to do what you did to me by brining up another point in favor of no-lynching ancillary to this discussion. if we no-lynch and just potato then all the items will be saved and maintained as the player to be potatoed can send items away before being lynched. This is like someone claiming before being lynched and giving their role to a "back-up"

this way we don't lose items that belong to town.

If we were three days out I would go along with the lynch and potato plan (and I did after having my thoughts rejected) but we aren't at that stage anymore. We are hours away and not close to a lynch let alone a majority opinion on a potato as well. Unfortunately asking town to come to a consensus on both is too much to ask at this point. We need to consolidate and then move on. We can't just abandon the potato because then scum will take advantage of the confusion. but we can abandon the lynch and consolidate everyone on the potato in a way that mafia can't take advantage of it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #400 on: May 29, 2014, 03:04:37 pm »

Another reason to lynch is that scum might not use the bomb in certain situations.

sudgy you haven't responded to any of my points.

instead you just keep bringing up new points to which I respond to and you then ignore and move past by bringing up another point elsewhere

if scum does not use the bomb then that is great! we just lynch the player that should have been bombed day2 and all mafia can do is prime

I am going to do what you did to me by brining up another point in favor of no-lynching ancillary to this discussion. if we no-lynch and just potato then all the items will be saved and maintained as the player to be potatoed can send items away before being lynched. This is like someone claiming before being lynched and giving their role to a "back-up"

this way we don't lose items that belong to town.

If we were three days out I would go along with the lynch and potato plan (and I did after having my thoughts rejected) but we aren't at that stage anymore. We are hours away and not close to a lynch let alone a majority opinion on a potato as well. Unfortunately asking town to come to a consensus on both is too much to ask at this point. We need to consolidate and then move on. We can't just abandon the potato because then scum will take advantage of the confusion. but we can abandon the lynch and consolidate everyone on the potato in a way that mafia can't take advantage of it.

I believe we can only send one item each night, right?  So we only save one item.  Though, that player can make everything from what would otherwise go away and use them to aid the town if possible before they die.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #401 on: May 29, 2014, 03:08:53 pm »

that is a fair point I hadn't fully realized
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #402 on: May 29, 2014, 03:31:48 pm »

I've reconsidered the potato theory.

Potato: archetype unless we are going to lynch him at which point I say we potato Voltaire.

I'm also, going to side with yuma's arguments even though my gut says NO!!! Vote: Archetype

Potato: ADK

Interesting that as soon as I say we are potatoing you, you start trying to potato someone else.

Right, I should stick to a flawed strategy to keep up good appearances like scum would do...

I'm fine with being potatoed. I'm better with sending it elsewhere, though.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #403 on: May 29, 2014, 03:45:02 pm »

If yuma is scum and Voltaire is scum when yuma starts attracting votes Voltaire might try to subtly salvage the early perception before traction is gained.

If yuma is town and Voltaire is scum when yuma starts attracting votes Voltaire might try to gain some cred by either avoiding the wagon in a not-too-obvious way or start out hesitant for cred but get a later vote in to seal the mislynch.

You have not analyzed any scenarios where I am town. Why not? What are they, btw?

I would say it is slightly towny to provide meta that supports moving my vote. but as I outlined it is equally useful for scum to do this. So, I'm not sure a Towny scenario exists for you at the moment in my mind. I'm not entirely sure the onus should be on me to create one, either.this is an invitation for voltaire to provide a Town context

instead I got:

So I did something townie...but it could have been scum pretending to be town...so I'm scum. No other possibilities.

vote: PPS

Wherein he quoted me but removed the bit about the onus not being on me to argue him to be Town which I would term Town-hunting and not scum-hunting. So, yeah, he voted me for scum-hunting while refusing to argue the allegations.

Well okay, but that's reading quite a lot into his very first post of substance.  I don't think Voltaire saying Yuma is town is indicative of Voltaire's alignment at all.  It could simply be what Voltaire thinks. 

And I don't really see what you're saying about his response to you.  He did essentially address it, by saying that your statements imply that he's acting townie, and you're using that to deduce that he is scum.  You saying it's equally indicative of town and scum means there already is a town scenario. 

(Removed subscripts because they're hard to read.)

PPS, WW beat me to it. This. You gave reasons why I could be town or scum, then stated I was scum, with no chance of being town. That's insanity, and I think it's the insanity you showed in Dice Mafia and whatever game it was where you won scum!MVP by being "too erratic" or whatever all game.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #404 on: May 29, 2014, 03:49:43 pm »

My vote is still where I want it (PPS). I am comfortable switching to Archetype to get a lynch through later tonight. I don't want a no-lynch.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #405 on: May 29, 2014, 03:52:43 pm »

PPS, WW beat me to it. This. You gave reasons why I could be town or scum, then stated I was scum, with no chance of being town. That's insanity, and I think it's the insanity you showed in Dice Mafia and whatever game it was where you won scum!MVP by being "too erratic" or whatever all game.

The game I MVP'd I achieved by leveraging the fact that I never voted for a confirmed Townie. That would be the complete opposite of being erratic. So, now that I've moved my vote on the basis of my reasoning being unsound you want to continue to beat the horse? Why?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #406 on: May 29, 2014, 03:53:28 pm »

PPS, WW beat me to it. This. You gave reasons why I could be town or scum, then stated I was scum, with no chance of being town. That's insanity, and I think it's the insanity you showed in Dice Mafia and whatever game it was where you won scum!MVP by being "too erratic" or whatever all game.

The game I MVP'd I achieved by leveraging the fact that I never voted for a confirmed Townie. That would be the complete opposite of being erratic. So, now that I've moved my vote on the basis of my reasoning being unsound you want to continue to beat the horse? Why?

Because I'm not looking at your votes, I'm looking at your words and reasoning.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #407 on: May 29, 2014, 04:24:54 pm »

I am still thinking no-lynch is the way to go at this juncture, but enough people don't agree. Obviously I wouldn't be heart-broken if a no-lynch happened by default so long as we have a set plan for the potato. However I will vote: archetype as the no-lynch can happen w/o my vote and if we are going to lynch then this is how where should do it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #408 on: May 29, 2014, 05:01:24 pm »

Because I'm not looking at your votes, I'm looking at your words and reasoning.

You said my reasoning was unsound. I agreed and changed my reasoning. Now you say my reasoning remains unsound but don't say how or why and indicate that it must somehow still be scummy.

If Archetype flips Mafia do you think this is a bus-vote? That would explain why my move appears erratic and unsound in reason. If you answer yes, then you are saying that you think I am scum regardless of Archetype's alignment. If that is the case why are you not voting for me instead? The only reasonable answer then is that you must be my scum partner. Way to go, you outed our whole team, Voltaire, we're doomed, why would you do that to us? ::) :P
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #409 on: May 29, 2014, 05:11:07 pm »

Another reason to lynch is that scum might not use the bomb in certain situations.

sudgy you haven't responded to any of my points.

instead you just keep bringing up new points to which I respond to and you then ignore and move past by bringing up another point elsewhere

if scum does not use the bomb then that is great! we just lynch the player that should have been bombed day2 and all mafia can do is prime

Mafia know this.  I will not automatically lynch the person who was supposed to be potatoed because they can try to confuse us.

Quote
I am going to do what you did to me by brining up another point in favor of no-lynching ancillary to this discussion. if we no-lynch and just potato then all the items will be saved and maintained as the player to be potatoed can send items away before being lynched. This is like someone claiming before being lynched and giving their role to a "back-up"

this way we don't lose items that belong to town.

That's like saying we should always no lynch on Day 1 no matter what because you always lose something when lynching someone.

Quote
If we were three days out I would go along with the lynch and potato plan (and I did after having my thoughts rejected) but we aren't at that stage anymore. We are hours away and not close to a lynch let alone a majority opinion on a potato as well. Unfortunately asking town to come to a consensus on both is too much to ask at this point. We need to consolidate and then move on. We can't just abandon the potato because then scum will take advantage of the confusion. but we can abandon the lynch and consolidate everyone on the potato in a way that mafia can't take advantage of it.

This point does have merit, especially as it's getting closer to the end of the day.  I think we are going to no lynch now anyway because we aren't anywhere near a consensus.  I personally want to lynch a lurker and potato PPS, but that might not be possible.  As for why to potato PPS, others have wanted it, volunteering for the potato right away sounds like something scum would do for towncred, and his reaction to me saying he would be potatoed is interesting.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #410 on: May 29, 2014, 05:20:11 pm »

I am getting more confident that pps is scum, so I am glad we will potato him.

vote: Archetype to get a lynch.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #411 on: May 29, 2014, 05:20:42 pm »

Right, so I just realized Voltaire is actually voting for me, so everyone can disregard the bit where I showed he logically should be as if he weren't.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #412 on: May 29, 2014, 05:48:20 pm »

Another reason to lynch is that scum might not use the bomb in certain situations.

sudgy you haven't responded to any of my points.

instead you just keep bringing up new points to which I respond to and you then ignore and move past by bringing up another point elsewhere

if scum does not use the bomb then that is great! we just lynch the player that should have been bombed day2 and all mafia can do is prime

Mafia know this.  I will not automatically lynch the person who was supposed to be potatoed because they can try to confuse us.

But if you don't, then there's no accountability for being chosen to eat the bomb and living the next day.  Mafia can be voted for potato and still kill who they want.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #413 on: May 29, 2014, 05:55:39 pm »


not fully quoting for clarity:

Quote
Mafia know this.  I will not automatically lynch the person who was supposed to be potatoed because they can try to confuse us.

This doesn't make any sense to me... We have already chosen that person as our "lynch" for day1. Except we aren't lynching day1 (all hypothetical if we follow the plan I outlined) we are just potatoing... So if said person doesn't get NKed then 1. either the person we targeted is mafia and mafia isn't going to potato themselves or 2. the person is town and mafia is messing with us. So we lynch that person for the information and for the flip and to follow through with what we intended! The whole reason we lynch in the first place in normal games. The potato N1 takes the place of the lynch, so if it doesn't happen we have to follow through! You are obviously not fully understanding and talking past me at this point.

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That's like saying we should always no lynch on Day 1 no matter what because you always lose something when lynching someone.

that is not what I am saying at all! Again, talking past me. I am saying that in this specific setup we can have the best of both worlds! Get the info, hinder scum, save some powers and most importantly not shoot blindly twice on day1 with little to nothing to go off in a situation where we are 2 hours from deadline and no one is near a consensus!!!

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This point does have merit, especially as it's getting closer to the end of the day.  I think we are going to no lynch now anyway because we aren't anywhere near a consensus.  I personally want to lynch a lurker and potato PPS, but that might not be possible.  As for why to potato PPS, others have wanted it, volunteering for the potato right away sounds like something scum would do for towncred, and his reaction to me saying he would be potatoed is interesting.

interesting has no meaning. I agree that when PPS said he would take the potato I found it akin to a self-vote, but in his explanation he explained that it wasn't (I still don't follow, but I followed enough to see that he had a point). I think that if we no-lynch the person we potato should be the person with a majority of votes, who would be archetype at this point.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #414 on: May 29, 2014, 06:56:19 pm »

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.  Deadline is TONIGHT at 8 pm


Cool. 1 hour and 5 minutes to deadline and we've got no one saying anything. Please tell me you will be online for the deadline sudgy so you can make sure we are all on the same page, confusion can't be an option going into night or else scum will have an out and won't be held accountable.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #415 on: May 29, 2014, 06:58:09 pm »

No matter what, we're potatoing PPS. Right?

I'll switch to Archetype if needed.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #416 on: May 29, 2014, 06:59:18 pm »

No matter what, we're potatoing PPS. Right?

I'll switch to Archetype if needed.

I am hoping that this will be still up for consideration and that it should be archetype as that is who the majority wants
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #417 on: May 29, 2014, 07:07:26 pm »

I would rather potato Archetype than PPS. I would rather no-lynch and use the potato than lynch. If people are dead set on pushing a lynch through I'm around to talk about and/or vote. If we can get some sort of IC confirmation that archetype is the potato target before the deadline comes, that would be ideal.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #418 on: May 29, 2014, 07:08:45 pm »

Anyone know the vote?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #419 on: May 29, 2014, 07:15:55 pm »

faust (1): ashersky
pingpongsam (1): Voltaire
XerxesPraelor (2): faust, Archetype
no lynch (2): Witherweaver, Jimmmmm
Archetype (5): pingpongsam, sudgy, A Drowned Kernel, yuma, xerion <-(L-2)

not voting (1): XerxesPraelor
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #420 on: May 29, 2014, 07:16:22 pm »

I might have missed some but that's how I counted it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #421 on: May 29, 2014, 07:17:22 pm »

ok. vote: archetype
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #422 on: May 29, 2014, 07:47:02 pm »

We are less than fifteen minutes from deadline. If we no-lynch I am going to treat archetype as the potato-target and would advise everyone else to do the same.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #423 on: May 29, 2014, 07:49:28 pm »

I will unfortunately do the same, unless Sudgy rules otherwise. I urge him to chose PPS though.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #424 on: May 29, 2014, 07:52:35 pm »

wow. this is fun guys. Like I am having a total blast.

thanks for showing up (voltaire and ADK excluded in my sarcasm)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #425 on: May 29, 2014, 07:53:22 pm »

I will unfortunately do the same, unless Sudgy rules otherwise. I urge him to chose PPS though.

you are the only one that wants PPS. majority should rule.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #426 on: May 29, 2014, 07:59:07 pm »

i don't know when it happened, but somehow f.ds mafia turned into mafiascum mafia. The change is not one for the positive
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #427 on: May 29, 2014, 08:01:45 pm »

alright... deadline is passed. no lynch. sudgy isn't here.

everyone potato archetype. that is obviously what we should do and what I believe sudgy would want us to do if he were here. I can't believe he didn't show up...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #428 on: May 29, 2014, 08:05:52 pm »

The Wikiville detectives were really confused.  For one thing, where was Chief Detective chairs, and who was this sudgy guy? mail-mi suddenly wanted to be called Voltaire.  Very puzzling.  To top it off, they couldn't agree on whether to lynch or hot potato their suspect, which meant the arrest deadline came and went without a decision.  Maybe the night would be more productive ...

Day 1 Final Vote Count

faust (1): ashersky
XerxesPraelor (2): faust, Archetype
no lynch (2): Witherweaver, Jimmmmm
Archetype (6): pingpongsam, sudgy, A Drowned Kernel, yuma, xeiron, Voltaire

not voting (1): XerxesPraelor

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.  A majority was not reached and there is no lynch.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 08:20:35 pm by EFHW »
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #429 on: May 29, 2014, 08:12:38 pm »

The initial Hot Potato sending is due by 2 am Friday.  Sending of items and of messages with items must be ordered by Friday 8 pm FdsT (Forum time).

The last bomb recipient will be whoever has the bomb Sunday 6 pm.

Power building and actions are due Sunday at 8 pm.  Day 2 will start when these have been processed.

PM with questions.

THREAD LOCKED
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #430 on: May 29, 2014, 08:15:40 pm »

Just a reminder - when you send the potato to someone, please do it in a new PM (not in a reply) with your target in the subject line.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #431 on: May 30, 2014, 11:53:53 am »

It is becoming apparent to me that the IC is a bit OP.  So I'm going to make a couple changes to the rules.

1.  You can only have one kind of protection active at a time, starting now.

2.  Day 2 there will be no discussion allowed of who to send the potato to.

3.  You can't send items to the same person two nights in a row.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #432 on: May 30, 2014, 08:50:10 pm »

The item sending phase is now over.  Exaggeration and message sending orders must be received by Sun 6 pm.  Whoever is holding the bomb Sun at 6 pm can choose to let it explode or have a random player chosen from all those who received the bomb tonight.  All other orders are due by Sun at 8 pm.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #433 on: May 31, 2014, 11:10:26 am »

In the resolution chain, the Hot Potato explosion has been added after Protections.  Stealth has been added to the Hot Potato resolution chain with the town protections.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #434 on: June 01, 2014, 08:48:54 pm »

It was a gloomy morning in Wikiville.  The detectives found the people of the village all in the center green, crying because there had been an explosion.  Archetype, a vanilla townie, had been killed!  The rumor was that there had been some kind of kitchen accident, but the detectives knew better.  Their good friend had been killed by the mafia!  They reconvened briefly at headquarters before starting the day's work of mafia-hunting/detective-eluding.

Vote Count 2.0
 

Not voting (11): A Drowned Kernel, ashersky, faust, Jimmmmm, pingpongsam, sudgy,  Voltaire, Witherweaver, xeiron, XerxesPraelor, yuma

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, June 9th at 8:45 pm

THREAD UNLOCKED!
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 05:57:53 pm by EFHW »
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #435 on: June 01, 2014, 08:51:07 pm »

Today we will experiment with disallowing bomb planning talk.  At the start of Day 3, we'll have a poll for what seems the best way to proceed.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #436 on: June 01, 2014, 09:15:12 pm »

Today we will experiment with disallowing bomb planning talk.  At the start of Day 3, we'll have a poll for what seems the best way to proceed.

Note, I'm voting to allow discussion no matter what, since I am completely against disallowing certain discussion in any way in any game (other than BM).

Everybody, claim what you sent me.

Also, PPS, why did you send the bomb to Arch last night?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #437 on: June 01, 2014, 10:00:23 pm »

I sent you paper, with a note.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #438 on: June 01, 2014, 10:00:56 pm »

Today we will experiment with disallowing bomb planning talk.  At the start of Day 3, we'll have a poll for what seems the best way to proceed.

Note, I'm voting to allow discussion no matter what, since I am completely against disallowing certain discussion in any way in any game (other than BM).

I'm with sudgy on this.  I'm against sweeping set-up/rules changes mid-game overall.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #439 on: June 01, 2014, 10:01:22 pm »

Do we all get a new random item?

I received no items tonight.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #440 on: June 01, 2014, 10:03:27 pm »

Today we will experiment with disallowing bomb planning talk.  At the start of Day 3, we'll have a poll for what seems the best way to proceed.

Note, I'm voting to allow discussion no matter what, since I am completely against disallowing certain discussion in any way in any game (other than BM).

I'm with sudgy on this.  I'm against sweeping set-up/rules changes mid-game overall.

I'm against setup/rule changes mid-game overall too, but am definitely against not allowing discussion about something, even if said at the beginning of the game.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #441 on: June 01, 2014, 10:04:13 pm »

I sent a Paper
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #442 on: June 01, 2014, 10:05:18 pm »

EFHW: Can I use the time that you gave me certain items as a clue as to who is telling the truth?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #443 on: June 01, 2014, 10:05:30 pm »

Today we will experiment with disallowing bomb planning talk.  At the start of Day 3, we'll have a poll for what seems the best way to proceed.

Note, I'm voting to allow discussion no matter what, since I am completely against disallowing certain discussion in any way in any game (other than BM).

I'm with sudgy on this.  I'm against sweeping set-up/rules changes mid-game overall.

this. also I think I want to vote: ash

Nothing concrete, but I think he is the most likely out of everyone to analyze a setup and request a change as scum, despite what he said above (which I think it the position he would take regardless of alignment, but if his alignment is scum then he wants to win and will want the rule change even if it goes against what he would do as a mod)

Also I have nothing to say about any items

Also... where was everyone at the deadline? And where was everyone in the day/hours before the deadline? I am under no circumstance voting today for the people who were around (ADK and Voltaire specifically) except if they are found guilty in an investigation of some sort
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #444 on: June 01, 2014, 10:09:21 pm »

Also I have nothing to say about any items

Vote: yuma the purpose of the giving-me-items plan was to find groups of people scum can't be a part of.  All I am asking for is if you sent me an items and what it was.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #445 on: June 01, 2014, 10:13:01 pm »

Also I have nothing to say about any items

Vote: yuma the purpose of the giving-me-items plan was to find groups of people scum can't be a part of.  All I am asking for is if you sent me an items and what it was.

I never agreed to said plan.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #446 on: June 01, 2014, 10:15:55 pm »

vote: yuma

WIFOM, also he's probably Faust's partner.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #447 on: June 01, 2014, 10:16:04 pm »

vote: yuma

WIFOM, also he's probably Faust's partner.

Not WIFOM, OMGUS.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #448 on: June 01, 2014, 10:17:28 pm »

lame
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #449 on: June 01, 2014, 10:19:33 pm »

lame

sorry, hit post when trying to scroll down... should go onto say...

lame. also your faust vote yesterday was lame. you sat on him all day long and did nothing to promote discussion of lynching elsewhere and only providing early hyperbolic evidence that he was scum and then not adding to it or anything else the rest of the day. I get that you were VLA but if you were town your performance was subpar for day1 for various reasons.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #450 on: June 01, 2014, 10:21:38 pm »

There's also the potato powers.  Subterfuge doesn't affect the plan, but bounce does.  So does Privacy Curtain.  So we'd need town to NOT make these items.

Scumslip? Bounce is a mafia-only power.

On another note, I think our IC should most definitely make a privacy curtain. But yeah, noone else probably.

vote: faust

Go look at the table dude.  4 bandages = town bounce.

You know who thinks it's just a mafia power?  The mafia guy who knows he can make it tonight.  I'd guess Faust and a partner have mag glasses And bandages.

Huh, you're right. Guess I didn't see the second entry in the table. I thought each power would be differently named. You voting me is weakly reasoned and OMGUS.

My reasoning is weak? This from the guy who accused me of a scum slip?  Who thought I got a power name wrong as scum?  That's such STRONG reasoning there.

Your thought process went there immediately because you are too fully aware of your own inventions.

Lynch me if you want, but lynch Faust next.  He is scum.  This is a straight up scum tell.

this was the last time your provided any reason as to why faust should be the lynch. from then on you just repeatedly said "faust should be lynched" or something to that effect or theory talked.

this post was from the 2nd day (May22) of actual game play. awful
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #451 on: June 01, 2014, 10:23:27 pm »

lame

sorry, hit post when trying to scroll down... should go onto say...

lame. also your faust vote yesterday was lame. you sat on him all day long and did nothing to promote discussion of lynching elsewhere and only providing early hyperbolic evidence that he was scum and then not adding to it or anything else the rest of the day. I get that you were VLA but if you were town your performance was subpar for day1 for various reasons.

Can't argue with my town performance being subpar.  My modding hasn't been spot on either, with my travel.  Happens.

Still feel good about my case on Faust.  My vote on you is more OMGUS than case.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #452 on: June 01, 2014, 10:24:25 pm »

I stand behind my assertion that the only person that makes the mistake faust made in that post has a scum alignment.  It's this new thing I've come up with, I'm calling it a scumslip.  Sounds good, right?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #453 on: June 01, 2014, 10:25:25 pm »

If you want further reasoning, look at any post following that from Faust, and how they all lack a decent, clear explanation or defense.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #454 on: June 01, 2014, 10:26:42 pm »

Well I am more concerned with your surety in regard to faust than your vote on me at this point. How can you be sure about something that happened so early day1. you don't appear to be taking any evidence from the rest of the day.

How sure are you? Cause right now the impression you are giving off is upwards of 90-95% sure...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #455 on: June 01, 2014, 10:27:26 pm »

yeah... I am not buying it... surprise surprise...

however, I know have an annoying townread on you... unvote
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #456 on: June 01, 2014, 10:34:04 pm »

EFHW: Can I use the time that you gave me certain items as a clue as to who is telling the truth?

You can try, but I doubt that I sent them to you at the same times they were sent to me.  Kind of against the spirit of the game, too.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #457 on: June 01, 2014, 10:34:26 pm »

an annoying townread on you...

Is there any other kind?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #458 on: June 01, 2014, 10:41:04 pm »

Nothing concrete, but I think he is the most likely out of everyone to analyze a setup and request a change as scum, despite what he said above (which I think it the position he would take regardless of alignment, but if his alignment is scum then he wants to win and will want the rule change even if it goes against what he would do as a mod)

The role changes were not prompted by any communication from any player.

Also, I'm sorry about their inelegance and timing.  My decision was based on wanting to have the game be balanced, and I realized that town had too many ways to neutralize the mafia.  I could turn the hot potato into a regular nk if that is preferred for Day 3.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #459 on: June 01, 2014, 10:42:04 pm »

I sent sudgy a badge.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #460 on: June 01, 2014, 10:53:09 pm »

Everyone, please include what time you sent the item.  I will not use this in any concrete way, but it might still help..
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #461 on: June 01, 2014, 10:54:03 pm »

Also, yuma, I'm going to be saying what items I received last night anyway, so there is no new information scum can get (other than one of the items you started with, but I don't think that will make much of a difference).  You not saying anything is incredibly anti-town.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #462 on: June 01, 2014, 10:55:10 pm »

Everyone, please include what time you sent the item.  I will not use this in any concrete way, but it might still help..

I'm not sure this works, or if it's okay to do.

Like, I did everyone all at once, to be sure I'd get the orders in.  I did it the first time I logged on after day had ended.  Doesn't say much or anything about when EFHW might have sent things to you.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #463 on: June 01, 2014, 10:56:45 pm »

You know what is incredibly anti-town...?

Not being around at deadline, or even hours before, when we were entering a night with mass confusion and you are the IC.

I gave you absolutely nothing.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #464 on: June 01, 2014, 10:57:11 pm »

Everyone, please include what time you sent the item.  I will not use this in any concrete way, but it might still help..

I'm not sure this works, or if it's okay to do.

Like, I did everyone all at once, to be sure I'd get the orders in.  I did it the first time I logged on after day had ended.  Doesn't say much or anything about when EFHW might have sent things to you.

What do you mean, everyone all at once?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #465 on: June 01, 2014, 10:58:23 pm »

at I sent nothing at everytime possible.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #466 on: June 01, 2014, 10:59:24 pm »

Everyone, please include what time you sent the item.  I will not use this in any concrete way, but it might still help..

I'm not sure this works, or if it's okay to do.

Like, I did everyone all at once, to be sure I'd get the orders in.  I did it the first time I logged on after day had ended.  Doesn't say much or anything about when EFHW might have sent things to you.

EFHW sent me an item, then said I had received a certain three so far, then one other, then one other, then later a full list of all my items.  I'll admit it probably won't affect anything, but it could.  Also, regarding if it's okay to do:

EFHW: Can I use the time that you gave me certain items as a clue as to who is telling the truth?

You can try, but I doubt that I sent them to you at the same times they were sent to me.  Kind of against the spirit of the game, too.


You know what is incredibly anti-town...?

Not being around at deadline, or even hours before, when we were entering a night with mass confusion and you are the IC.

I gave you absolutely nothing.

I had real life, and I mentioned it before in the thread.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #467 on: June 01, 2014, 11:00:46 pm »

I know you have a real life, I get that.

But I SAW YOU ONLINE! at a time when I had repeatedly asked for help and clarification. You were reading the thread. I know you are town, I know you are an IC. But I was/am really frustrated with your apathy and lack of direction. If you weren't an IC I would be voting for you right now because to me it looked like you were avoiding the thread.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #468 on: June 01, 2014, 11:05:11 pm »

Everyone, please include what time you sent the item.  I will not use this in any concrete way, but it might still help..

I'm not sure this works, or if it's okay to do.

Like, I did everyone all at once, to be sure I'd get the orders in.  I did it the first time I logged on after day had ended.  Doesn't say much or anything about when EFHW might have sent things to you.

What do you mean, everyone all at once?

Sorry, everything.  I sent and used items all in one PM, even when the timing was different for them.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #469 on: June 01, 2014, 11:05:33 pm »

I mean... I had to take over and direct town. I know I am town and I am glad that apparently people followed my advice, but it would have been so much better coming from you. I am not trying to be mean or anything, but just saying that if you are calling me not wanting to do something that I think is anti-town (and gave into because you are the IC) then I would encourage you to also look at yourself and hopefully see that there is some room for improvement.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #470 on: June 01, 2014, 11:05:37 pm »

I sent my Paper at like 11:30ish Thursday night (EST/forum time).
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #471 on: June 01, 2014, 11:08:49 pm »

I sent a bandage almost immediately.

I received the potato and forwarded it to Archetype because that was the plan. He was nearly lynched and he was the popular potato vote and I was in favor of both. I am not happy that he flipped town but I am not totally surprised either.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #472 on: June 01, 2014, 11:16:44 pm »

I sent a bandage almost immediately.

I received the potato and forwarded it to Archetype because that was the plan. He was nearly lynched and he was the popular potato vote and I was in favor of both. I am not happy that he flipped town but I am not totally surprised either.

Pretty sure the plan was potato PPS.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #473 on: June 01, 2014, 11:17:46 pm »

Potato Vote 1.final (including "I want to potato this person" and such):

PPS (3): PPS, ashersky, Voltaire
Archetype (2): Witherweaver, yuma
faust (1): Jimmmmm
xeiron (1): ADK
Xerxes (1): Archetype
ashersky (1): xeiron

Due to popular vote (barely) and because I was thinking of it myself, we will potato PPS.

Now let's lynch.  I might not be around right at deadline, but we should try to lynch before then anyway.

Yep.  Potato PPS.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #474 on: June 01, 2014, 11:19:15 pm »

Also, because it drives me crazy:

When you do a post count, instead of searching for usernames, search for this phrase:

post by: {username}

Where {username} is the name of the person you are searching.  That will result in a correct count every time.  Unless someone wrote "Post by: name" in a post.

But you could throw off post counts by typing username: ashersky in the body of a post, too.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #475 on: June 01, 2014, 11:19:37 pm »

I know you have a real life, I get that.

But I SAW YOU ONLINE! at a time when I had repeatedly asked for help and clarification. You were reading the thread. I know you are town, I know you are an IC. But I was/am really frustrated with your apathy and lack of direction. If you weren't an IC I would be voting for you right now because to me it looked like you were avoiding the thread.

Sometimes I read the thread and don't know what to post.  That happened a couple hours from deadline.  I think not much had been posted since my last post.  I was gone at deadline.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #476 on: June 01, 2014, 11:20:50 pm »

The discussion in the afternoon before the deadline implied everyone was going with Arch as the target, not PPS
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #477 on: June 01, 2014, 11:22:32 pm »

The discussion in the afternoon before the deadline implied everyone was going with Arch as the target, not PPS

I saw that.  Doesn't change the fact that the (mostly) agreed upon route of the IC deciding who would get potato'ed had already decided PPS.

The fact that players who may actually be scum got to try and adjust the kill target is a huge red flag.  We had a mod-confirmed town player select a target, and then we had some not mod-confirmed anything players decide otherwise with a minority voice.

That's pretty shady.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #478 on: June 01, 2014, 11:24:21 pm »

Let me repeat: it is very possible that the potato target was changed from PPS to Archetype by scum, in direct opposition to the Innocent Child's wishes.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #479 on: June 01, 2014, 11:30:19 pm »

Let me repeat: it is very possible that the potato target was changed from PPS to Archetype by scum, in direct opposition to the Innocent Child's wishes.

I see no reason to do that unless PPS is actually scum and his partners needed to save him.  But that seems way too risky.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #480 on: June 01, 2014, 11:35:50 pm »

I sent paper, I don't know what EFHW wants to do about the time thing but I will say that I sent it later in the time window. Actual thoughts later.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #481 on: June 01, 2014, 11:54:44 pm »

Let me repeat: it is very possible that the potato target was changed from PPS to Archetype by scum, in direct opposition to the Innocent Child's wishes.

I see no reason to do that unless PPS is actually scum and his partners needed to save him.  But that seems way too risky.

I can see reasons.

--PPS is scum, don't blow up a partner.
--Redirect from one towny to another, cause confusion, possible making PPS look bad due to the discussion following.
--Get some to people to follow the plan and others not, possibly messing up results today.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #482 on: June 02, 2014, 12:02:23 am »

Let me repeat: it is very possible that the potato target was changed from PPS to Archetype by scum, in direct opposition to the Innocent Child's wishes.

the bloody IC wasn't around to convey his wishes! That is what I have been trying to say!

sudgy... didn't have anything to say. that is bull! this whole confusion exists because you didn't come in and clarify a position that was vague.

ash... sudgy said that, but it was disputed immediately by not just me but other players as well. I took it into my own hands because our IC was MIA... trying to paint me as scummy because our IC missed the boat is missing the mark by a far stretch! We didn't know the IC's wishes that at that juncture in the game because he didn't give it. He gave it initially but a lot changed in the meantime!

I blame sudgy completely for any confusion, not me, not pps, not anyone else. the blame is on sudgy.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #483 on: June 02, 2014, 12:09:24 am »

Let me repeat: it is very possible that the potato target was changed from PPS to Archetype by scum, in direct opposition to the Innocent Child's wishes.

the bloody IC wasn't around to convey his wishes! That is what I have been trying to say!

sudgy... didn't have anything to say. that is bull! this whole confusion exists because you didn't come in and clarify a position that was vague.

ash... sudgy said that, but it was disputed immediately by not just me but other players as well. I took it into my own hands because our IC was MIA... trying to paint me as scummy because our IC missed the boat is missing the mark by a far stretch! We didn't know the IC's wishes that at that juncture in the game because he didn't give it. He gave it initially but a lot changed in the meantime!

I blame sudgy completely for any confusion, not me, not pps, not anyone else. the blame is on sudgy.

Fair enough points.

But, it was pretty clear to me the IC had said to potato PPS.  It was also pretty clear to me he hadn't changed that order before the end of the day.

You may be town, and you may have been working hard to make things happen at the end of D1 (although I know you not-so-secretly supported no lynch anyway), but that doesn't mean you can trust anyone doing the same.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #484 on: June 02, 2014, 12:13:47 am »

I am not saying you need to trust me, I don't expect anyone to trust me w/o mod confirmation--even if I feel I have deserved it--I just ask that you understand that I did what I felt was necessary in a situation that was extremely precarious. I don't think it was clear that was what sudgy wanted at the end of the game. I felt that is what he wanted mid-game, which are two very different things.

No one else was willing to step up and so I did so. I still feel good about archetype over PPS. archetype was a serial lurker who was extremely scummy and should have been lynched if we were going to lynch (yes I did support a no-lynch plan, but mostly I preferred that via consensus)

Also, I just remembered this: vote: jimmmm for this post:

SERIOUSLY!!!

The day before deadline and there are zero posts from between the hours of 2 pm and 11 pm except for three by me.

I guess that's what happens when you decide to no-lynch.

Having said that, Vote: no-lynch

Potato: faust

laziest post in the game, and hella scummy to.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #485 on: June 02, 2014, 12:42:12 am »

I sent you a magnifying glass, sudgy.

Catching up now.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #486 on: June 02, 2014, 12:43:53 am »

I lied. Can't catch up tonight. See you guys tomorrow.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #487 on: June 02, 2014, 01:09:59 am »

I lied again, I'm caught up.

Not claiming the time I sent my item because I believe that is breaking the spirit/honor of the game. But I will say I am against disallowing potato talk and I'm not a fan of rule-changing mid-game. That said, if they need to change, so be it.

ash, if you're town, understand that you have not made a persuasive case against faust. You have to do more.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #488 on: June 02, 2014, 01:22:29 am »

ash, if you're town, understand that you have not made a persuasive case against faust. You have to do more.

My case may not be persuasive, but I usually am.  Basically, this is a "trust me, I'm ashersky and I know what I'm doing" situation.  You can trust me, or you can lynch me.  Those are always the two* options in a game of mafia.

*(I suppose "ignore me" is a third option.)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #489 on: June 02, 2014, 07:59:49 am »

ash, if you're town, understand that you have not made a persuasive case against faust. You have to do more.

My case may not be persuasive, but I usually am.  Basically, this is a "trust me, I'm ashersky and I know what I'm doing" situation.  You can trust me, or you can lynch me.  Those are always the two* options in a game of mafia.

*(I suppose "ignore me" is a third option.)

The last time we had this kind of situation, we were both town IIRC.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #490 on: June 02, 2014, 08:00:56 am »

I sent magnifying glasses. Not claiming time because pretty much what Voltaire said, but it makes for crappy and unfun arguments.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #491 on: June 02, 2014, 08:03:03 am »

Should we trace the way the potato went? I think that would be a good idea, right? I didn't get it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #492 on: June 02, 2014, 08:03:25 am »

I sent magnifying glasses. Not claiming time because pretty much what Voltaire said, but it makes for crappy and unfun arguments.

but = plus
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #493 on: June 02, 2014, 01:18:39 pm »

*(I suppose "ignore me" is a third option.)

That is my plan until you start putting forward something more substantial
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #494 on: June 02, 2014, 01:24:20 pm »

So if we can't come up with a potato plan, we need to lynch, right? vote: PPS
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #495 on: June 02, 2014, 01:41:48 pm »

So if we can't come up with a potato plan, we need to lynch, right? vote: PPS

I can't think of a better lynch than Vote: voltaire. This isn't OMGUS, this is picking up where I left off yesterday before I got derailed into the wild goose chase that was Archetype.
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #496 on: June 02, 2014, 01:43:29 pm »

So if we can't come up with a potato plan, we need to lynch, right? vote: PPS

I can't think of a better lynch than Vote: voltaire. This isn't OMGUS, this is picking up where I left off yesterday before I got derailed into the wild goose chase that was Archetype.

Why do you describe it as a wild goose chase? This post is fully of scummy vibes. Be accountable man!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #497 on: June 02, 2014, 01:50:52 pm »

So if we can't come up with a potato plan, we need to lynch, right? vote: PPS

I can't think of a better lynch than Vote: voltaire. This isn't OMGUS, this is picking up where I left off yesterday before I got derailed into the wild goose chase that was Archetype.

You feel that strongly about my D1 read on yuma and my vote on you? That's...paper-thin, man.

I also agree with yuma that this is just terrible on your part, and scummy.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #498 on: June 02, 2014, 01:52:14 pm »

No, I've seen yuma do this before, and he was town. Therefore yuma is more likely town.

PPE: You have not analyzed any scenarios where I am town. Why not? What are they, btw?

Well, you are really early to the game. I have no use for considering your posts in context of where mail-mi was and mail-mi hardly posted anyway. That said, I'm scum-hunting not town hunting. I am seeking the most likely place to put a vote because I support a D1 lynch.

I would say it is slightly towny to provide meta that supports moving my vote. but as I outlined it is equally useful for scum to do this. So, I'm not sure a Towny scenario exists for you at the moment in my mind. I'm not entirely sure the onus should be on me to create one, either.

This is PPS's case on me.

 ???
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #499 on: June 02, 2014, 01:53:25 pm »

I argued against killing Archetype. I agreed he was scummy but he's always scummy. We all agreed we needed Town controlled deaths and it shaped up to be Archetype that got the popular vote so I included myself in the votes because I did want a lynch. Failing the lynch we agreed Archetype was the potato target. When I received the potato I sent it to Archetype. Am I now to be punished for doing what we all agreed to do even though I was publicly the least willing?

If I thought killing me would help Town get a clearer picture I would have held the potato. I was more certain I was Town than I was Archetype. I was more certain that Voltaire was scum than archetype and I said as much yesterday. Voltaire is my top scum read. I can't really say I have any other scum reads, right now.

Food for thought. Why would I even say that I sent the potato to Archetype?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #500 on: June 02, 2014, 01:56:32 pm »

No, I've seen yuma do this before, and he was town. Therefore yuma is more likely town.

PPE: You have not analyzed any scenarios where I am town. Why not? What are they, btw?

Well, you are really early to the game. I have no use for considering your posts in context of where mail-mi was and mail-mi hardly posted anyway. That said, I'm scum-hunting not town hunting. I am seeking the most likely place to put a vote because I support a D1 lynch.

I would say it is slightly towny to provide meta that supports moving my vote. but as I outlined it is equally useful for scum to do this. So, I'm not sure a Towny scenario exists for you at the moment in my mind. I'm not entirely sure the onus should be on me to create one, either.

This is PPS's case on me.

 ???

Right, the fact that you refuse to assert a Town agenda but would rather color me scummy for suggesting maybe your agenda is less than Townish. I'm doing scum-hunting and your just looking for a pariah. You will probably win, too, because I am so brash you can get the policy vote over on me.

If I am scum why would I own sending the potato to a Townie?
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #501 on: June 02, 2014, 01:57:14 pm »

I argued against killing Archetype. I agreed he was scummy but he's always scummy. We all agreed we needed Town controlled deaths and it shaped up to be Archetype that got the popular vote so I included myself in the votes because I did want a lynch. Failing the lynch we agreed Archetype was the potato target. When I received the potato I sent it to Archetype. Am I now to be punished for doing what we all agreed to do even though I was publicly the least willing?

No, I'm resuming my scum read on you from yesterday for my previously-stated reasons (an insane case against me and a meta-based scum read). Without a fully mafia-controlled NK, and no lynch yesterday, there's barely anything new for this D2 compared to the standard D2.

I don't have a scum read on you for potatoing Archetype. I agree that the plan was unclear between you and Archetype (yes, sudgy said you, but with your self-vote that was understandably unclear for some people), and I'd expect you as scum or town to self-preserve. I don't hold that against you.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #502 on: June 02, 2014, 01:57:21 pm »

I argued against killing Archetype. I agreed he was scummy but he's always scummy. We all agreed we needed Town controlled deaths and it shaped up to be Archetype that got the popular vote so I included myself in the votes because I did want a lynch. Failing the lynch we agreed Archetype was the potato target. When I received the potato I sent it to Archetype. Am I now to be punished for doing what we all agreed to do even though I was publicly the least willing?

If I thought killing me would help Town get a clearer picture I would have held the potato. I was more certain I was Town than I was Archetype. I was more certain that Voltaire was scum than archetype and I said as much yesterday. Voltaire is my top scum read. I can't really say I have any other scum reads, right now.

Food for thought. Why would I even say that I sent the potato to Archetype?

Sudgy already called you out on doing so when the thread opened.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #503 on: June 02, 2014, 01:59:06 pm »

Sudgy already called you out on doing so when the thread opened.

how would sudgy know for 100% certain I was the one who sent it to Archetype?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #504 on: June 02, 2014, 02:00:43 pm »

Sudgy already called you out on doing so when the thread opened.

how would sudgy know for 100% certain I was the one who sent it to Archetype?

I am guessing he received it, sent it to you and thus assumed that you sent it to arch isntead of holding onto it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #505 on: June 02, 2014, 02:01:34 pm »

If I am scum why would I own sending the potato to a Townie?

what the I don't even

Only scum could know they sent the potato to a townie.

Feeling really good about my vote on you.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #506 on: June 02, 2014, 02:02:24 pm »

Sudgy already called you out on doing so when the thread opened.

how would sudgy know for 100% certain I was the one who sent it to Archetype?

I am guessing he received it, sent it to you and thus assumed that you sent it to arch isntead of holding onto it.

Right, ASSUME, which as scum I would say, "well, I sent it to ole Voltaire, he musta done in Archetype." No, I owned it. Why would Mafia own something like this that they do not have to?
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #507 on: June 02, 2014, 02:02:35 pm »

Sudgy already called you out on doing so when the thread opened.

how would sudgy know for 100% certain I was the one who sent it to Archetype?

I am guessing he received it, sent it to you and thus assumed that you sent it to arch isntead of holding onto it.

which was the right thing to do. I am not blaming you for that.

What I am suspicious of is the attitude of defending arch before, giving into it and then not holding up to being responsible for your own actions. Instead you are passing it off as "you guys should have listened to me, obviously I was in the right"

Basically everything you did was fine until you tried to absolve yourself of responsibility. that part was scummy
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #508 on: June 02, 2014, 02:03:32 pm »

No, I've seen yuma do this before, and he was town. Therefore yuma is more likely town.

PPE: You have not analyzed any scenarios where I am town. Why not? What are they, btw?

Well, you are really early to the game. I have no use for considering your posts in context of where mail-mi was and mail-mi hardly posted anyway. That said, I'm scum-hunting not town hunting. I am seeking the most likely place to put a vote because I support a D1 lynch.

I would say it is slightly towny to provide meta that supports moving my vote. but as I outlined it is equally useful for scum to do this. So, I'm not sure a Towny scenario exists for you at the moment in my mind. I'm not entirely sure the onus should be on me to create one, either.

This is PPS's case on me.

 ???

Right, the fact that you refuse to assert a Town agenda but would rather color me scummy for suggesting maybe your agenda is less than Townish. I'm doing scum-hunting and your just looking for a pariah. You will probably win, too, because I am so brash you can get the policy vote over on me.

If I am scum why would I own sending the potato to a Townie?

This isn't compelling.  Volt doesn't need to assert a town agenda unless there he's done something that was conspicuously scummy, which he didn't.  He posted his thoughts on something that came up, and you jumped on him for it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #509 on: June 02, 2014, 02:03:45 pm »

Sudgy already called you out on doing so when the thread opened.

how would sudgy know for 100% certain I was the one who sent it to Archetype?

I am guessing he received it, sent it to you and thus assumed that you sent it to arch isntead of holding onto it.

Right, ASSUME, which as scum I would say, "well, I sent it to ole Voltaire, he musta done in Archetype." No, I owned it. Why would Mafia own something like this that they do not have to?

Because sending the potato to someone who died doesn't make them scum, but you sure think it does.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #510 on: June 02, 2014, 02:03:49 pm »

Sudgy already called you out on doing so when the thread opened.

how would sudgy know for 100% certain I was the one who sent it to Archetype?

I am guessing he received it, sent it to you and thus assumed that you sent it to arch isntead of holding onto it.

Right, ASSUME, which as scum I would say, "well, I sent it to ole Voltaire, he musta done in Archetype." No, I owned it. Why would Mafia own something like this that they do not have to?

because what if voltaire never received it. said so. then we have a lynch all liars case on our hands... you or volt gets lynched today, if not scum, lynch the other, case closed.

scum tells the truth whenever possible. I am not saying you are scum or town right now. I am just saying that what you are saying isn't a good enough defense
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #511 on: June 02, 2014, 02:04:09 pm »

If I am scum why would I own sending the potato to a Townie?

what the I don't even

Only scum could know they sent the potato to a townie.

Feeling really good about my vote on you.

That is plain idiotic on it's face. We ALL know that the potato got sent to a Townie because a townie died because of the potato. I am the one who publicly admitted to being the one to send it to Archetype when as Mafia that would be very ill-advised.
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #512 on: June 02, 2014, 02:05:10 pm »

if you are scum, lying about sending or not sending the potato is a huge risk. It is the equivilant of fake claiming. and becomes a 50/50 lynch. scum doesn't put themselves in those situations. But again I am not certain you are scum. I just think you said some pretty scummy things just barely.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #513 on: June 02, 2014, 02:05:53 pm »

Sudgy already called you out on doing so when the thread opened.

how would sudgy know for 100% certain I was the one who sent it to Archetype?

I am guessing he received it, sent it to you and thus assumed that you sent it to arch isntead of holding onto it.

Right, ASSUME, which as scum I would say, "well, I sent it to ole Voltaire, he musta done in Archetype." No, I owned it. Why would Mafia own something like this that they do not have to?

Well, that wouldn't work very well for you as scum.  Voltaire would deny it, and if we lynch Volt today and he's town, then we'd lynch you tomorrow. At most you bought yourself a day.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #514 on: June 02, 2014, 02:06:15 pm »

And I think we should try to track the potato from last night and put it together as best we can. But I think it is pretty short... mafia>sudgy>PP>archetype

anyone else touch the potato?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #515 on: June 02, 2014, 02:07:57 pm »

And I think we should try to track the potato from last night and put it together as best we can. But I think it is pretty short... mafia>sudgy>PP>archetype

anyone else touch the potato?

I did not.

There's no way to track the potato with abilities?  Investigation only works on the initial send, and that's it?
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #516 on: June 02, 2014, 02:09:12 pm »

Basically everything you did was fine until you tried to absolve yourself of responsibility. that part was scummy

This too.

I never got the potato, btw.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #517 on: June 02, 2014, 02:09:41 pm »

And I think we should try to track the potato from last night and put it together as best we can. But I think it is pretty short... mafia>sudgy>PP>archetype

anyone else touch the potato?

Why did Archetype not send it back to me?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #518 on: June 02, 2014, 02:10:45 pm »

And I think we should try to track the potato from last night and put it together as best we can. But I think it is pretty short... mafia>sudgy>PP>archetype

anyone else touch the potato?

Why did Archetype not send it back to me?

And did Archetype send it to someone else who then sent it back to him?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #519 on: June 02, 2014, 02:12:10 pm »

If I am scum why would I own sending the potato to a Townie?

what the I don't even

Only scum could know they sent the potato to a townie.

Feeling really good about my vote on you.

That is plain idiotic on it's face. We ALL know that the potato got sent to a Townie because a townie died because of the potato. I am the one who publicly admitted to being the one to send it to Archetype when as Mafia that would be very ill-advised.

if you are scum, lying about sending or not sending the potato is a huge risk. It is the equivilant of fake claiming. and becomes a 50/50 lynch. scum doesn't put themselves in those situations.

yuma is saying what I'm trying to say much better.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #520 on: June 02, 2014, 02:13:10 pm »

And I think we should try to track the potato from last night and put it together as best we can. But I think it is pretty short... mafia>sudgy>PP>archetype

anyone else touch the potato?

Why did Archetype not send it back to me?

And did Archetype send it to someone else who then sent it back to him?

That's what Yuma is asking.  If no one speaks up, I'm sure we can conclude no.  Town wouldn't lie (I hope), and if Mafia got it again, they'd want to send it to Sudgy if they initially sent it to him.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #521 on: June 02, 2014, 02:14:00 pm »

And I think we should try to track the potato from last night and put it together as best we can. But I think it is pretty short... mafia>sudgy>PP>archetype

anyone else touch the potato?

Why did Archetype not send it back to me?

Two possible scenarios:

1. He held onto it, because he was town, and that was the plan
2. He did send it to someone, who sent it back to him

Odds are not 50/50, of course. I'd think 75/25 1/2, possibly higher. Did Arch say he was cool with a potato plan?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #522 on: June 02, 2014, 02:14:50 pm »

and if Mafia got it again, they'd want to send it to Sudgy if they initially sent it to him.

oh right duh yes that.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #523 on: June 02, 2014, 02:15:04 pm »

if Mafia got it again, they'd want to send it to Sudgy if they initially sent it to him.
Yes, I missed the significance of sudgy being the starting point. So, if I am Mafia why would I have not sent it back to sudgy?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #524 on: June 02, 2014, 02:15:25 pm »

and if Mafia got it again, they'd want to send it to Sudgy if they initially sent it to him.

oh right duh yes that.
So, if I am Mafia why would I have not sent it back to sudgy?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #525 on: June 02, 2014, 02:17:49 pm »

if Mafia got it again, they'd want to send it to Sudgy if they initially sent it to him.
Yes, I missed the significance of sudgy being the starting point. So, if I am Mafia why would I have not sent it back to sudgy?

Well actually maybe I'm wrong there.  Sending it to Sudgy could be too risky, because someone knows they sent it to you so it creates another Liar/Liar scenario. 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #526 on: June 02, 2014, 02:18:46 pm »

and if Mafia got it again, they'd want to send it to Sudgy if they initially sent it to him.

oh right duh yes that.
So, if I am Mafia why would I have not sent it back to sudgy?

That is a potentially compelling point and one that needs to be analyzed. All I have tried to get at is that trying absolve yourself of responsibility of being on a wagon is scummy and that is what you did. We do need to take into consideration everything and not just leap to conclusions that you are scum or that you are town based off what we know in isolation.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #527 on: June 02, 2014, 02:20:14 pm »

and if Mafia got it again, they'd want to send it to Sudgy if they initially sent it to him.

oh right duh yes that.
So, if I am Mafia why would I have not sent it back to sudgy?

if Mafia got it again, they'd want to send it to Sudgy if they initially sent it to him.
Yes, I missed the significance of sudgy being the starting point. So, if I am Mafia why would I have not sent it back to sudgy?

Well actually maybe I'm wrong there.  Sending it to Sudgy could be too risky, because someone knows they sent it to you so it creates another Liar/Liar scenario.

Ho-ho, this is the first thing you've said in your defense that I actually find to be a good point. Hmm.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #528 on: June 02, 2014, 02:20:43 pm »

if Mafia got it again, they'd want to send it to Sudgy if they initially sent it to him.
Yes, I missed the significance of sudgy being the starting point. So, if I am Mafia why would I have not sent it back to sudgy?

Well actually maybe I'm wrong there.  Sending it to Sudgy could be too risky, because someone knows they sent it to you so it creates another Liar/Liar scenario.

I would contend the reward of offing the IC outweighs the risk of a 50/50 standoff the next day which ultimately resolves into a Mafia lynch within 2 days. I believe sudgy was the initial recipient with intent to get him dead.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #529 on: June 02, 2014, 02:21:07 pm »

I also just found this:

Quote
The mafia first sending the bomb may not target their initial target again in the same night, but their partners may. Only the first sending of the bomb is visible to investigations.

So initial sender can't send it back to their first target.

The other thing is, if Sudgy didn't send the bomb to PPS but rather did some kind of Investigation, he needs to speak up about that.  Tracking someone to Arch or someone targeting Arch is pretty damning in that case.
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #530 on: June 02, 2014, 02:21:32 pm »

and if Mafia got it again, they'd want to send it to Sudgy if they initially sent it to him.

oh right duh yes that.
So, if I am Mafia why would I have not sent it back to sudgy?

One idea is that if sudgy has protection (the three thing) of some sort he would send it to you (since you initially got it once from him woudnl't you get it again?), and since that would be two hits for you...

I need to go over again what exactly would happen with the potato/protection as I am a little fuzzy on all of that.

but I am going to the zoo with wife and baby, so that will have to wait unless someone wants to dig it up and refresh my memory?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #531 on: June 02, 2014, 02:24:50 pm »

The only argument that supports me being Mafia is one in which I initially sent the potato to sudgy. This would be adequate explanation for me owning having sent it to Archetype if it came right back to me.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #532 on: June 02, 2014, 02:27:20 pm »

The only argument that supports me being Mafia is one in which I initially sent the potato to sudgy. This would be adequate explanation for me owning having sent it to Archetype if it came right back to me.

Well, or Sudgy never receiving the bomb and tracking/watching. Or you deciding that sacrificing yourself to kill the IC isn't worth it.  Or earning towncred is more important than killing the IC.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #533 on: June 02, 2014, 02:28:09 pm »

Unvote
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #534 on: June 02, 2014, 02:29:10 pm »

The only argument that supports me being Mafia is one in which I initially sent the potato to sudgy. This would be adequate explanation for me owning having sent it to Archetype if it came right back to me.

Well, or Sudgy never receiving the bomb and tracking/watching. Or you deciding that sacrificing yourself to kill the IC isn't worth it.  Or earning towncred is more important than killing the IC.

I think you underestimate the importance of killing the IC.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #535 on: June 02, 2014, 02:32:31 pm »

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #536 on: June 02, 2014, 02:44:09 pm »

Unvote

Might I ask why?
Well, I get the sense we've got a load of Townies chasing their tails. I rearead my capitulation from lyesterday and I recalled coming around to my logic being crappy. My initial revote today was steeped in the fact that Arch flipped Town and only remembering I had been voting you before coming over to the more popular Archetype wagon because I wanted a lynch.

That I have no scum reads is bad business. Right now, I want to look outside of who is active.

Jimmmmm, Xerxes, ADK and xeiron, what are your scum reds and why?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #537 on: June 02, 2014, 02:45:36 pm »

The only argument that supports me being Mafia is one in which I initially sent the potato to sudgy. This would be adequate explanation for me owning having sent it to Archetype if it came right back to me.

Well, or Sudgy never receiving the bomb and tracking/watching. Or you deciding that sacrificing yourself to kill the IC isn't worth it.  Or earning towncred is more important than killing the IC.

I think you underestimate the importance of killing the IC.

Maybe.

There's also what Yuma said.  If Sudgy made a Privacy Curtain, he can get the bomb twice without blowing up, so it would be an additional risk for scum to send it to him, especially if that player think (s)he's likely to get it back.

Since Yuma asked:

1-shot Privacy Curtain: You need to receive the bomb 3 times for it to explode and you aren’t included in randomly determined explosions unless you have been targeted twice. This is a passive power that lasts until it is used.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #538 on: June 02, 2014, 04:26:15 pm »

I sent a badge to Sudgy last night.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #539 on: June 02, 2014, 05:35:37 pm »

OK:

my thoughts were a bit scattered as I tried to figure out what happened last night.

Here is the current hypothesis compiled into one post about PPS if he is scum. I don't know if it is the most likely, but just what probably happened if he is.

1. sudgy received the bomb last night and sent it to PPS

Also, PPS, why did you send the bomb to Arch last night?

2. PPS sent the bomb to archetype

I received the potato and forwarded it to Archetype because that was the plan. He was nearly lynched and he was the popular potato vote and I was in favor of both. I am not happy that he flipped town but I am not totally surprised either.

I do not fault PPS for this because it was the plan that was given at the end of the day

alright... deadline is passed. no lynch. sudgy isn't here.

everyone potato archetype. that is obviously what we should do and what I believe sudgy would want us to do if he were here. I can't believe he didn't show up...

Ok, but if PPS is scum then sudgy was sent the bomb who sent it to PPS (following his initial instructions) and PPS sent it to arch (following my instructions and likely held onto it--or passed it so someone else who passed it back to arch again where he died given):

Quote
The first person to receive the bomb 2 times dies, unless bombproof.

Now... PPS has argued that if he were mafia he would not have owned up to passing the bomb to Archetype. He said he could have said he sent it to voltaire--or really anyone else for that matter.

This presents two problems. One the person he said could have not received the bomb and thus we have a he said/she said situation and we lynch successively from those two and hit scum in a 1 for 1 or worse for scum 1 for 0 situation.

Second, PPS said that he would hold onto the bomb given sudgy's plan or if he were following my plan he would have sent it to Archetype. So if he had admitted to sending it to anyone else except for arch that would have been highly suspicious.

Thus the fact that he admitted to sending the bomb to archetype is not enough evidence to dismiss the suspicions because admitting to sending it was the only logical thing to do.

Now... PPS has also said that if he were mafia he wouldn't have sent the bomb to Arch, but would have sent it to sudgy in an attempt to kill the IC.

It appears sudgy received the bomb at least once (likely initially from mafia). Sending it back a second time would make sense from a mafia perspective, except that it was highly likely that sudgy was able to erect a privacy curtain:

Quote
1-shot Privacy Curtain: You need to receive the bomb 3 times for it to explode and you aren’t included in randomly determined explosions unless you have been targeted twice. This is a passive power that lasts until it is used.
from the items he received.

Thus mafia would know that it would take 3 times to sudgy for it to work.

Add in the knowledge that if PPS is mafia he would know that sudgy initially received the bomb and then had it sent back to him. I believe that mafia would deduce that sudgy upon receiving the bomb the second time would do what he did before and resend the bomb back to PPS--who may or may not have had a privacy curtain himself--thus creating a precarious situation for scum!PPS who could have exploded upon receiving the bomb a second time. So I do not believe that scum!PPS would have sent the bomb to sudgy, especially when combined with the ideas presented above.

Basically, I do not find the defenses that PPS gave as to why he couldn't be mafia in regard to the Potato bomb compelling at all. However, this does not necessarily mean that he is mafia... because right now all that we have to go off is that he sent the bomb to archetype, which is what he should have done given the last minute instructions.

So right now the only reason I find him suspicious is that he tried to shift responsibility in regard to his switch to voting archetype yesterday. I do not find his defenses that he used in regard to the potato bomb scummy either. They certainly don't disprove of him being scum, but they aren't manifestly scummy either for being given. In fact that they weren't totally thought all the way out gives them something of a townier edge as I think mafia would think more about the situation as a whole and not try to give such a defense and instead just stick with the "I was following the last minute instructions" defense.

And as a last note I completely agree with PPS that

Quote
Jimmmmm, Xerxes, ADK and xeiron, what are your scum reds and why?

need to be more fully analyzed. Except I am continuing to give ADK a pass (along with Voltaire) just for being around yesterday at deadline unless either do something completely egregious or in the event of an investigative result.

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #540 on: June 02, 2014, 05:37:31 pm »

I am getting a townread on pps (if Sudgy really sent the potato to him), yuma, Voltaire and Witherweawer.

Scumread on ashersky for tunnelling faust, just like ashersky use to tunnel people when he is scum.

vote: Ashersky
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #541 on: June 02, 2014, 05:57:13 pm »

Vote Count 2.1  

ashersky (1): xeiron
yuma (2): sudgy, ashersky
Jimmmmm (1): yuma
pingpongsam (1): Voltaire

Not voting (6): A Drowned Kernel, faust, Jimmmmm, pingpongsam, Witherweaver, XerxesPraelor
 
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, June 9th at 8:45 pm
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 09:17:48 pm by EFHW »
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #542 on: June 02, 2014, 06:04:58 pm »

OK:

my thoughts were a bit scattered as I tried to figure out what happened last night.

Here is the current hypothesis compiled into one post about PPS if he is scum. I don't know if it is the most likely, but just what probably happened if he is.

1. sudgy received the bomb last night and sent it to PPS

Also, PPS, why did you send the bomb to Arch last night?

2. PPS sent the bomb to archetype

I received the potato and forwarded it to Archetype because that was the plan. He was nearly lynched and he was the popular potato vote and I was in favor of both. I am not happy that he flipped town but I am not totally surprised either.

I do not fault PPS for this because it was the plan that was given at the end of the day

alright... deadline is passed. no lynch. sudgy isn't here.

everyone potato archetype. that is obviously what we should do and what I believe sudgy would want us to do if he were here. I can't believe he didn't show up...

Ok, but if PPS is scum then sudgy was sent the bomb who sent it to PPS (following his initial instructions) and PPS sent it to arch (following my instructions and likely held onto it--or passed it so someone else who passed it back to arch again where he died given):

Quote
The first person to receive the bomb 2 times dies, unless bombproof.

Now... PPS has argued that if he were mafia he would not have owned up to passing the bomb to Archetype. He said he could have said he sent it to voltaire--or really anyone else for that matter.

This presents two problems. One the person he said could have not received the bomb and thus we have a he said/she said situation and we lynch successively from those two and hit scum in a 1 for 1 or worse for scum 1 for 0 situation.

Second, PPS said that he would hold onto the bomb given sudgy's plan or if he were following my plan he would have sent it to Archetype. So if he had admitted to sending it to anyone else except for arch that would have been highly suspicious.

Thus the fact that he admitted to sending the bomb to archetype is not enough evidence to dismiss the suspicions because admitting to sending it was the only logical thing to do.

Now... PPS has also said that if he were mafia he wouldn't have sent the bomb to Arch, but would have sent it to sudgy in an attempt to kill the IC.

It appears sudgy received the bomb at least once (likely initially from mafia). Sending it back a second time would make sense from a mafia perspective, except that it was highly likely that sudgy was able to erect a privacy curtain:

Quote
1-shot Privacy Curtain: You need to receive the bomb 3 times for it to explode and you aren’t included in randomly determined explosions unless you have been targeted twice. This is a passive power that lasts until it is used.
from the items he received.

Thus mafia would know that it would take 3 times to sudgy for it to work.

Add in the knowledge that if PPS is mafia he would know that sudgy initially received the bomb and then had it sent back to him. I believe that mafia would deduce that sudgy upon receiving the bomb the second time would do what he did before and resend the bomb back to PPS--who may or may not have had a privacy curtain himself--thus creating a precarious situation for scum!PPS who could have exploded upon receiving the bomb a second time. So I do not believe that scum!PPS would have sent the bomb to sudgy, especially when combined with the ideas presented above.

Basically, I do not find the defenses that PPS gave as to why he couldn't be mafia in regard to the Potato bomb compelling at all. However, this does not necessarily mean that he is mafia... because right now all that we have to go off is that he sent the bomb to archetype, which is what he should have done given the last minute instructions.

So right now the only reason I find him suspicious is that he tried to shift responsibility in regard to his switch to voting archetype yesterday. I do not find his defenses that he used in regard to the potato bomb scummy either. They certainly don't disprove of him being scum, but they aren't manifestly scummy either for being given. In fact that they weren't totally thought all the way out gives them something of a townier edge as I think mafia would think more about the situation as a whole and not try to give such a defense and instead just stick with the "I was following the last minute instructions" defense.

And as a last note I completely agree with PPS that

Quote
Jimmmmm, Xerxes, ADK and xeiron, what are your scum reds and why?

need to be more fully analyzed. Except I am continuing to give ADK a pass (along with Voltaire) just for being around yesterday at deadline unless either do something completely egregious or in the event of an investigative result.

There is one argument for why pps is not scum, that you do not touch.
It has to do with the initial target of the bomb. Why Sudgy?
Is pps is scum, and we have some uncertainty of whether pps, or archetype should be the target, Scum would want to make sure pps does not die. That can be done in two ways.

1. Start the bomb from Archetype, or someone likely to pass it to archetype. (yuma, or someone else who said so at the end of D1). Then pass it to Archetype once more if pps gets the bomb.

2. Start the bomb from a townie they would like to have killed. Pass it to that townie once more if pps gets the bomb.

Mafia did neither. They (presumably) sent it to Sudgy, who clearly had stated a intent of bombing pps over Archetype, and who might survive a second time with the bomb. Mafia had no guarantee that Archtype would let the bomb explode. Had Archetype sent it back, pps would have died. I do not think mafia would take the risk of Archetype holding on to the bomb, when there are safer ways to ensure no mafia dies.


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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #543 on: June 02, 2014, 06:23:45 pm »

unvote

That actually seems rather compelling.
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #544 on: June 02, 2014, 06:32:14 pm »

unvote

That actually seems rather compelling.

I would agree. But let me make sure I am understanding correctly.

So I believe you are saying that the only person mafia would give the bomb to sudgy is mafia (I agree here).

But because sudgy wanted to target PPS they would be hesitant to send it to sudgy because he would send it back to PPS (potentially repeatedly) and would instead send it to another random townie. But it appears they did not do this as sudgy did in fact receive the bomb.

So I guess the question is: would mafia risk losing a player to the bomb over trying to kill the IC, especially with the knowledge that the IC is likely to have a privacy curtain made by that time.

If I were mafia I would not risk losing a member for attempting to kill an IC that likely can't be killed that night to begin with. But I am not mafia and others may have attempted to risk it. But would PPS risk it? Different context, but he does say:

The only argument that supports me being Mafia is one in which I initially sent the potato to sudgy. This would be adequate explanation for me owning having sent it to Archetype if it came right back to me.

Well, or Sudgy never receiving the bomb and tracking/watching. Or you deciding that sacrificing yourself to kill the IC isn't worth it.  Or earning towncred is more important than killing the IC.

I think you underestimate the importance of killing the IC.

Am I following correctly?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #545 on: June 02, 2014, 06:41:21 pm »

I have not changed my town read on yuma, but a scenario exists where he was fanning PPS/me because we're both town and he's mafia. I do not think this is very likely right now but it is extremely plausible.

I currently think it is far more likely that he is town also sorting through this and being careful.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #546 on: June 02, 2014, 07:34:58 pm »

Vote Count 2.1  

ashersky (1): xeiron
yuma (2): sudgy, ashersky
Jimmmmm (1): yuma
pingpongsam (1): Voltaire

Not voting (6): A Drowned Kernel, faust, Jimmmmm, pingpongsam, Witherweaver, XerxesPraelor
 


Actually, I already Unvoted
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pingpongsam

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #547 on: June 02, 2014, 07:35:36 pm »

Never mind I can't read I blame the baby.
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #548 on: June 02, 2014, 08:39:08 pm »

I have not changed my town read on yuma, but a scenario exists where he was fanning PPS/me because we're both town and he's mafia. I do not think this is very likely right now but it is extremely plausible.

I currently think it is far more likely that he is town also sorting through this and being careful.

I don't think you can call what I was doing fanning... (I am assuming you mean fanning the flames) as, as you say, my whole intention obviously wasn't to egg people on, it was to bring clarity to the situation.

People should go read Jimmmm...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #549 on: June 02, 2014, 08:44:05 pm »

People should go read Jimmmm...

Why?

I've done the re-read, btw.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #550 on: June 02, 2014, 08:51:11 pm »

People should go read Jimmmm...

Why?

I've done the re-read, btw.

because I haven't and don't and won't have the time coming up for the next little while (I start back on at work tomorrow) and he is a high person of interest given the quote I pointed to above
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #551 on: June 02, 2014, 09:17:32 pm »

Vote Count 2.1  

ashersky (1): xeiron
yuma (2): sudgy, ashersky
Jimmmmm (1): yuma
pingpongsam (1): Voltaire

Not voting (6): A Drowned Kernel, faust, Jimmmmm, pingpongsam, Witherweaver, XerxesPraelor
 


Actually, I already Unvoted

? I don't show you as voting here.
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #552 on: June 02, 2014, 09:17:47 pm »

I just looked through your recent posts, I don't see anything about Jimmmmm specifically.

Jimmmmm is almost 100% theory, btw.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #553 on: June 02, 2014, 09:20:15 pm »

Vote Count 2.1  

ashersky (1): xeiron
yuma (2): sudgy, ashersky
Jimmmmm (1): yuma
pingpongsam (1): Voltaire

Not voting (6): A Drowned Kernel, faust, Jimmmmm, pingpongsam, Witherweaver, XerxesPraelor
 


Actually, I already Unvoted

? I don't show you as voting here.

nevermind, I can't read, blame ... hm, no baby.  They sure come in handy!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #554 on: June 02, 2014, 09:25:26 pm »

I just looked through your recent posts, I don't see anything about Jimmmmm specifically.

Jimmmmm is almost 100% theory, btw.

the one where I voted him! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10757.msg383842#msg383842

I was hoping you (or someone else) might find something more, but a lack of anything substantial is worrisome enough.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #555 on: June 02, 2014, 09:27:47 pm »

Oh, for me that was two pages ago, sorry about that.

The post you quoted is, like, one of 3 non-theory posts he has.

I'd be A-OK with a Jimmmmm lynch, but not yet.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #556 on: June 02, 2014, 10:00:12 pm »

I just looked through your recent posts, I don't see anything about Jimmmmm specifically.

Jimmmmm is almost 100% theory, btw.

the one where I voted him! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10757.msg383842#msg383842

I was hoping you (or someone else) might find something more, but a lack of anything substantial is worrisome enough.

I didn't really see what was so scummy about that post. 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #557 on: June 02, 2014, 10:09:41 pm »

I just looked through your recent posts, I don't see anything about Jimmmmm specifically.

Jimmmmm is almost 100% theory, btw.

the one where I voted him! http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=10757.msg383842#msg383842

I was hoping you (or someone else) might find something more, but a lack of anything substantial is worrisome enough.

I didn't really see what was so scummy about that post.

The perspective of detached context.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #558 on: June 03, 2014, 12:56:22 am »

Unvote

I am going to compile all of the item results so far.  Good discussion has been happening, so please, nobody respond to this.

ash: Paper
WW: Paper
yuma: Nothing
Jim: Badge
PPS: Bandage
ADK: Paper
Voltaire: Magnifying Glass
faust: Magnifying Glass
xeiron: Badge
Xerxes: ? [side note: POST]
Archetype: ?

I will wait for Xerxes to say anything about this.

I would build a case on PPS right now, but I'm still not sure about the whole recent situation.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #559 on: June 03, 2014, 01:20:53 am »

Oh, I didn't send anything to anyone because I wasn't sure what the plan was. I still have 1 bandage and 2 papers.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #560 on: June 03, 2014, 01:33:27 am »

ash: Paper
WW: Paper
yuma: Nothing
Jim: Badge
PPS: Bandage
ADK: Paper
Voltaire: Magnifying Glass
faust: Magnifying Glass
xeiron: Badge
Xerxes: Nothing
Archetype: ?

I received all of these items, no more, no less.  Take from it what you will.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #561 on: June 03, 2014, 02:29:15 am »

ash: Paper
WW: Paper
yuma: Nothing
Jim: Badge
PPS: Bandage
ADK: Paper
Voltaire: Magnifying Glass
faust: Magnifying Glass
xeiron: Badge
Xerxes: Nothing
Archetype: ?

I received all of these items, no more, no less.  Take from it what you will.

So this means a couple of things.

A) Someone lied. I mean, at least one person. I think it is highly likely that Arch sent an item to sudgy. Sadly, we don't know what it was. This means a total of two players have not sent items to sudgy.

B) One mafia correctly guessed the item sent by Arch. Arch never claimed what items he had, right? (I should go look at that soon) Mafia I think, if they fake-claim item sendings, want to claim an item that many people have sent. So people who claimed late are more suspicious, and people who claimed items more players have (i.e. Paper) are more suspicious than people who claimed an uncommon item (i.e. Bandages).

C) Two players claimed nothing. One of them must be lying. (If we suppose Arch sent the item... okay, Arch reread in order) So we should definitely look at Xerxes/yuma.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #562 on: June 03, 2014, 02:32:07 am »

I'm not claiming my items, but definitally sending one to sudgy.

Why the scumread on me, Yuma?

Found it. So this confirms that exactly one out of yuma/Xerxes is scum.

Vote: Xerxes for now, with intent to reread yuma.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #563 on: June 03, 2014, 02:36:04 am »

Wait, doesn't it mean that someone lied about sending something?

I mean, sudgy says he received exactly 8 items, all of which were claimed by 8 people.  2 people claimed nothing.  One person is lying about sending something and got lucky regarding Archetype's item, right?

8 things out of 11 people, right?  We have 9 people claiming to have sent something (including Arch).  So one of the 8 alive are lying, if we believe honest town.

We can't confirm Arch actually sent, but seems safe to assume it.

I don't know why exactly one of the two nothings is lying.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #564 on: June 03, 2014, 02:40:02 am »

Wait, doesn't it mean that someone lied about sending something?

I mean, sudgy says he received exactly 8 items, all of which were claimed by 8 people.  2 people claimed nothing.  One person is lying about sending something and got lucky regarding Archetype's item, right?

8 things out of 11 people, right?  We have 9 people claiming to have sent something (including Arch).  So one of the 8 alive are lying, if we believe honest town.

We can't confirm Arch actually sent, but seems safe to assume it.

I don't know why exactly one of the two nothings is lying.

You're right, I've been getting too exicted. But for both nothings to be telling the truth, that would mean mafia sent two items. DO we think they did that?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #565 on: June 03, 2014, 02:48:12 am »

I guess sending one item would be okay for scum, they spread some confusion and prevent one group from becoming confirmed town. Two items though... I just don't see how that would do much for them.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #566 on: June 03, 2014, 07:05:15 am »

Wait, doesn't it mean that someone lied about sending something?

I mean, sudgy says he received exactly 8 items, all of which were claimed by 8 people.  2 people claimed nothing.  One person is lying about sending something and got lucky regarding Archetype's item, right?

8 things out of 11 people, right?  We have 9 people claiming to have sent something (including Arch).  So one of the 8 alive are lying, if we believe honest town.

We can't confirm Arch actually sent, but seems safe to assume it.

I don't know why exactly one of the two nothings is lying.

You're right, I've been getting too exicted. But for both nothings to be telling the truth, that would mean mafia sent two items. DO we think they did that?
But if I or Yuma were scum and lied (town doesn't lie, especially about this sort of thing) that would mean that every single member of the Mafia lied about what they did or didn't send and Mafia sent two items, which you say is Unlikely. That should seem ridiculous. If scum wanted to send two items, why wouldn't they have the People who sent them tell the truth? And if yuma or I were scum and lied, then that would mean a townie lied about what they sent, which seems even more unlikely. I know I didn't lie, and I'm pretty sure yuma didn't either (his motivations look completely consistant with what he said).

Keep in mind that Archetype may have just forgot to send an item, even though he was planning to.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #567 on: June 03, 2014, 07:11:21 am »

I took from the question mark that Archetype sent an item and Sudgy is not revealing what it is because it serves no purpose since Archetype is dead and confirmed town. I am not sure why anyone interprets it as Archetype having not sent anything at all.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #568 on: June 03, 2014, 07:43:39 am »

I took from the question mark that Archetype sent an item and Sudgy is not revealing what it is because it serves no purpose since Archetype is dead and confirmed town. I am not sure why anyone interprets it as Archetype having not sent anything at all.

sudgy doesn't know where the items he gets come from, so he doesn't know whether Archetype sent him an item. Evidence suggests that he did though.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #569 on: June 03, 2014, 07:45:13 am »

Wait, doesn't it mean that someone lied about sending something?

I mean, sudgy says he received exactly 8 items, all of which were claimed by 8 people.  2 people claimed nothing.  One person is lying about sending something and got lucky regarding Archetype's item, right?

8 things out of 11 people, right?  We have 9 people claiming to have sent something (including Arch).  So one of the 8 alive are lying, if we believe honest town.

We can't confirm Arch actually sent, but seems safe to assume it.

I don't know why exactly one of the two nothings is lying.

You're right, I've been getting too exicted. But for both nothings to be telling the truth, that would mean mafia sent two items. DO we think they did that?
But if I or Yuma were scum and lied (town doesn't lie, especially about this sort of thing) that would mean that every single member of the Mafia lied about what they did or didn't send and Mafia sent two items, which you say is Unlikely. That should seem ridiculous. If scum wanted to send two items, why wouldn't they have the People who sent them tell the truth? And if yuma or I were scum and lied, then that would mean a townie lied about what they sent, which seems even more unlikely. I know I didn't lie, and I'm pretty sure yuma didn't either (his motivations look completely consistant with what he said).

Keep in mind that Archetype may have just forgot to send an item, even though he was planning to.

I don't get your argument here, like at all. Why would you or yuma being scum imply that all scum lied?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #570 on: June 03, 2014, 08:09:00 am »

I took from the question mark that Archetype sent an item and Sudgy is not revealing what it is because it serves no purpose since Archetype is dead and confirmed town. I am not sure why anyone interprets it as Archetype having not sent anything at all.

sudgy doesn't know where the items he gets come from, so he doesn't know whether Archetype sent him an item. Evidence suggests that he did though.

Okay, so does the question mark actually mean 3 nothings were sent?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #571 on: June 03, 2014, 08:41:44 am »

Wait, doesn't it mean that someone lied about sending something?

I mean, sudgy says he received exactly 8 items, all of which were claimed by 8 people.  2 people claimed nothing.  One person is lying about sending something and got lucky regarding Archetype's item, right?

8 things out of 11 people, right?  We have 9 people claiming to have sent something (including Arch).  So one of the 8 alive are lying, if we believe honest town.

We can't confirm Arch actually sent, but seems safe to assume it.

I don't know why exactly one of the two nothings is lying.

You're right, I've been getting too exicted. But for both nothings to be telling the truth, that would mean mafia sent two items. DO we think they did that?
But if I or Yuma were scum and lied (town doesn't lie, especially about this sort of thing) that would mean that every single member of the Mafia lied about what they did or didn't send and Mafia sent two items, which you say is Unlikely. That should seem ridiculous. If scum wanted to send two items, why wouldn't they have the People who sent them tell the truth? And if yuma or I were scum and lied, then that would mean a townie lied about what they sent, which seems even more unlikely. I know I didn't lie, and I'm pretty sure yuma didn't either (his motivations look completely consistant with what he said).

Keep in mind that Archetype may have just forgot to send an item, even though he was planning to.

I don't get your argument here, like at all. Why would you or yuma being scum imply that all scum lied?
Because three people didn't send anything. If I lied, than that means two people who claimed to have sent something didn't send anything, and town doesn't lie about this sort of thing.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #572 on: June 03, 2014, 08:42:07 am »

I took from the question mark that Archetype sent an item and Sudgy is not revealing what it is because it serves no purpose since Archetype is dead and confirmed town. I am not sure why anyone interprets it as Archetype having not sent anything at all.

sudgy doesn't know where the items he gets come from, so he doesn't know whether Archetype sent him an item. Evidence suggests that he did though.

Okay, so does the question mark actually mean 3 nothings were sent?
As far as I can tell, it does.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #573 on: June 03, 2014, 09:50:09 am »

What's going on here?  Why are people simultaneously saying Archetype sent an item and then proceeding as if he didn't?

If Archetype did not send an item, then there is probably no lying going on.

If Archetype did send an item (which is the most likely case; he said he was going to and he was town), then there is at least one scum in those that claimed to send items. 

Cases:

1 claimed to send, 2 did not.  In this case, both Xerxes and Yuma are scum.

2 claimed to send, 1 did not.  In this case, one of Xerxes and Yuma are scum.

3 claimed to send, 0 did not.  In this case, both Xerxes and Yuma are town. 

I believe this is what Faust was saying.  In the third case, two scum must have sent items to Sudgy (one lied and picked the one Archetype happened to send).  In the second case, one is lying and one sent truthfully.  In the first case, no scum sent items to Sudgy and one lied.

Did I oversimplify something or is this correct?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #574 on: June 03, 2014, 10:16:29 am »

Because three people didn't send anything. If I lied, than that means two people who claimed to have sent something didn't send anything, and town doesn't lie about this sort of thing.

Yeah, so it's sum who lied. So what?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #575 on: June 03, 2014, 10:16:42 am »

Because three people didn't send anything. If I lied, than that means two people who claimed to have sent something didn't send anything, and town doesn't lie about this sort of thing.

Yeah, so it's sum who lied. So what?

*scum, obviously
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #576 on: June 03, 2014, 10:27:29 am »

What's going on here?  Why are people simultaneously saying Archetype sent an item and then proceeding as if he didn't?

If Archetype did not send an item, then there is probably no lying going on.

If Archetype did send an item (which is the most likely case; he said he was going to and he was town), then there is at least one scum in those that claimed to send items. 

Cases:

1 claimed to send, 2 did not.  In this case, both Xerxes and Yuma are scum.

2 claimed to send, 1 did not.  In this case, one of Xerxes and Yuma are scum.

3 claimed to send, 0 did not.  In this case, both Xerxes and Yuma are town. 

I believe this is what Faust was saying.  In the third case, two scum must have sent items to Sudgy (one lied and picked the one Archetype happened to send).  In the second case, one is lying and one sent truthfully.  In the first case, no scum sent items to Sudgy and one lied.

Did I oversimplify something or is this correct?

What?? This makes no sense at all. Now, I know bad arguments aren't supposed to influence your reads, but this is really ridiculous. I'll give more in a later post, but here's what we know:

-Sudgy received t-3 items
-t-2 people claimed to have sent an item
-Therefore, someone claimed to have sent an item and was lying
-If even one of yuma and I lied, that means that all scum lied about what they sent or didn't, and I think that's pretty unlikely, because lying tends to get you caught

PPE: Actually, I misread what you said - regardless, the evidence shows that yuma and I are telling the truth.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #577 on: June 03, 2014, 10:32:53 am »

What's going on here?  Why are people simultaneously saying Archetype sent an item and then proceeding as if he didn't?

If Archetype did not send an item, then there is probably no lying going on.

If Archetype did send an item (which is the most likely case; he said he was going to and he was town), then there is at least one scum in those that claimed to send items. 

Cases:

1 claimed to send, 2 did not.  In this case, both Xerxes and Yuma are scum.

2 claimed to send, 1 did not.  In this case, one of Xerxes and Yuma are scum.

3 claimed to send, 0 did not.  In this case, both Xerxes and Yuma are town. 

I believe this is what Faust was saying.  In the third case, two scum must have sent items to Sudgy (one lied and picked the one Archetype happened to send).  In the second case, one is lying and one sent truthfully.  In the first case, no scum sent items to Sudgy and one lied.

Did I oversimplify something or is this correct?

I think this is oversimplified. The whole range of possibilities (assuming that Arch sent something and town didn't lie) is this:

Case A: Scum sent three items
Not possible, because then sudgy would have received one item more.

Case B: Scum sent two items

Case B.1: Three scum claimed to have sent items.
In this case, the third scum would have correctly guessed Arch's item, and both Xerxes and yuma are town.

Case B.2: Two scum claimed to have sent items.
In this case, one of yuma/Xerxes is scum.

Case B.3: Less than two scum claimed to have sent items.
Not possible, because then the number of received items would be greater than the number of claimed items.

Case C: Scum sent one item

Case C.1: Three scum claimed to have sent items
Not possible, because then sudgy would only have received 7 items.

Case C.2: Two scum claimed to have sent items
In this case, again, one of Xerxes/yuma is scum.

Case C.3: Less than two scum claimed to have sent an item
Not possible, because then the number of received items wouldn't match the number of sent items.

Case D: Scum sent 0 items.
In this case, it immediately follows that one scum claimed to have sent an item and two haven't. So we get that both yuma and Xerxes are scum, and the third scum correctly guessed Arch's item.

I hope this is now correct. Please double-check, if you feel up to it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #578 on: June 03, 2014, 10:35:23 am »

What?? This makes no sense at all. Now, I know bad arguments aren't supposed to influence your reads, but this is really ridiculous. I'll give more in a later post, but here's what we know:

-Sudgy received t-3 items
-t-2 people claimed to have sent an item
-Therefore, someone claimed to have sent an item and was lying
-If even one of yuma and I lied, that means that all scum lied about what they sent or didn't, and I think that's pretty unlikely, because lying tends to get you caught

PPE: Actually, I misread what you said - regardless, the evidence shows that yuma and I are telling the truth.

Wow. Too bad I'm already voting Xerxes.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #579 on: June 03, 2014, 10:38:00 am »

Oh, I think Case B.2 in my analysis above is also not possible, right? Because then again numbers wouldn't match up?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #580 on: June 03, 2014, 10:41:52 am »

@Faust:

I think we're saying the same thing.  I just organized the cases by what scum claimed instead of what scum actually sent.  You could also go into the same subcases of what was actually sent within each "claim" scenario.

@Xerxes:

You and Yuma telling the truth doesn't mean you're not scum... the liar is in the set of people that claimed to send items.  If only 1 scum claimed to send, then the other 2 had to claim not to.  If 2 scum claimed, then 1 claimed not to, and if all 3 claimed, then none claimed not to.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #581 on: June 03, 2014, 10:42:34 am »

I am unwilling to subscribe the possibility that scum correctly guessed Archetype's sent item.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #582 on: June 03, 2014, 10:43:51 am »

I am unwilling to subscribe the possibility that scum correctly guessed Archetype's sent item.

You're unwilling to subscribe to the possibility of an outcome that has a 1/4 chance of occurring?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #583 on: June 03, 2014, 10:44:29 am »

I am unwilling to subscribe the possibility that scum correctly guessed Archetype's sent item.

What other explanation do you propose then? That one town member claimed to have sent an item they actually didn't send? Or that Arch failed to send an item? I don't believe that.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #584 on: June 03, 2014, 10:44:48 am »

What's going on here?  Why are people simultaneously saying Archetype sent an item and then proceeding as if he didn't?

If Archetype did not send an item, then there is probably no lying going on.

If Archetype did send an item (which is the most likely case; he said he was going to and he was town), then there is at least one scum in those that claimed to send items. 

Cases:

1 claimed to send, 2 did not.  In this case, both Xerxes and Yuma are scum.

2 claimed to send, 1 did not.  In this case, one of Xerxes and Yuma are scum.

3 claimed to send, 0 did not.  In this case, both Xerxes and Yuma are town. 

I believe this is what Faust was saying.  In the third case, two scum must have sent items to Sudgy (one lied and picked the one Archetype happened to send).  In the second case, one is lying and one sent truthfully.  In the first case, no scum sent items to Sudgy and one lied.

Did I oversimplify something or is this correct?

I think this is oversimplified. The whole range of possibilities (assuming that Arch sent something and town didn't lie) is this:

Case A: Scum sent three items
Not possible, because then sudgy would have received one item more.

Case B: Scum sent two items

Case B.1: Three scum claimed to have sent items.
In this case, the third scum would have correctly guessed Arch's item, and both Xerxes and yuma are town.

Case B.2: Two scum claimed to have sent items.
In this case, one of yuma/Xerxes is scum.

Case B.3: Less than two scum claimed to have sent items.
Not possible, because then the number of received items would be greater than the number of claimed items.

Case C: Scum sent one item

Case C.1: Three scum claimed to have sent items
Not possible, because then sudgy would only have received 7 items.

Case C.2: Two scum claimed to have sent items
In this case, again, one of Xerxes/yuma is scum.

Case C.3: Less than two scum claimed to have sent an item
Not possible, because then the number of received items wouldn't match the number of sent items.

Case D: Scum sent 0 items.
In this case, it immediately follows that one scum claimed to have sent an item and two haven't. So we get that both yuma and Xerxes are scum, and the third scum correctly guessed Arch's item.

I hope this is now correct. Please double-check, if you feel up to it.
Why are you dividing everything up so scum-centrically? That sort of organization is much more likely to come from scum who was thinking about who to send stuff to. vote: faust

By far, the most likely thing is that 3 scum claimed to have sent items, and two of them did.

Here's what you're pretty much doing with your argument.
-------------------
Okay, here are the main cases.

1. Faust isn't scum
2. Faust is scum, and his partners are ash and ww
3. Faust is scum, and his partners are yuma and jimmm
4. Faust is scum, and his partners are pps and adk.
5. Faust is scum, and his partners are voltaire and xeiron
6....

Look how likely it is that faust is scum!
-----------------
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #585 on: June 03, 2014, 10:46:00 am »

I am unwilling to subscribe the possibility that scum correctly guessed Archetype's sent item.

What other explanation do you propose then? That one town member claimed to have sent an item they actually didn't send? Or that Arch failed to send an item? I don't believe that.
You think the possibility that arch forgot to send an item is worth considering in comparison to 25%?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #586 on: June 03, 2014, 10:47:05 am »

I am unwilling to subscribe the possibility that scum correctly guessed Archetype's sent item.

What other explanation do you propose then? That one town member claimed to have sent an item they actually didn't send? Or that Arch failed to send an item? I don't believe that.
You think the possibility that arch forgot to send an item is worth considering in comparison to 25%?

I have reason to believe that Arch did NOT forget to send an item.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #587 on: June 03, 2014, 10:47:46 am »

I am unwilling to subscribe the possibility that scum correctly guessed Archetype's sent item.

What other explanation do you propose then? That one town member claimed to have sent an item they actually didn't send? Or that Arch failed to send an item? I don't believe that.
You think the possibility that arch forgot to send an item is worth considering in comparison to 25%?

I have reason to believe that Arch did NOT forget to send an item.
Are you able to tell us that reason?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #588 on: June 03, 2014, 10:50:46 am »


The post you quote is not a case against you. The case against you is, scum wants to keep their pretty items. Hence, they only send as much items to sudgy as absolutely needed. Hence it is much more likely that they sent 0 or 1 item than two. In both these cases, you are highly likely to be scum. Add in my previous scumread on you and you're the perfect lynch candidate.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #589 on: June 03, 2014, 10:51:05 am »

I am unwilling to subscribe the possibility that scum correctly guessed Archetype's sent item.

What other explanation do you propose then? That one town member claimed to have sent an item they actually didn't send? Or that Arch failed to send an item? I don't believe that.
You think the possibility that arch forgot to send an item is worth considering in comparison to 25%?

I have reason to believe that Arch did NOT forget to send an item.
Are you able to tell us that reason?

Unfortunately, I'm not.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #590 on: June 03, 2014, 11:00:05 am »


The post you quote is not a case against you. The case against you is, scum wants to keep their pretty items. Hence, they only send as much items to sudgy as absolutely needed. Hence it is much more likely that they sent 0 or 1 item than two. In both these cases, you are highly likely to be scum. Add in my previous scumread on you and you're the perfect lynch candidate.
Except for that I'm perfectly willing to send sudgy or whoever items once we work out a proper plan. If the point is to deny town items,
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #591 on: June 03, 2014, 11:02:39 am »

Oops, posted halfway through.

If the point is to deny town items, I'm not doing a very good job of it. I haven't used any of the items, and now I have more so that I can give just what people actually need and not waste anything.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #592 on: June 03, 2014, 11:07:21 am »

I'm involved in a few other games; no prod please.

On the hot potato thing, we should definitely use it as an extra lynch or maybe if we want to nolynch to allow powers to be used that could also work.
Why do we need a second person for the items? WHy not just send everything to the IC?

By the way, this is Xerxes from D1.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #593 on: June 03, 2014, 11:09:53 am »

I am unwilling to subscribe the possibility that scum correctly guessed Archetype's sent item.

You're unwilling to subscribe to the possibility of an outcome that has a 1/4 chance of occurring?

It's more like I am unwilling to be tunneled into strictly using the items sent as the basis for determining where scum is. This easily works towards a mislynch. I think it is a red herring at this point and there are better places to be looking.
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XerxesPraelor

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #594 on: June 03, 2014, 11:12:39 am »

Why are you showing that quote?

PPE 1: Completely correct. We should be looking at people's interactions with archetype, and not the item stuff. There's just too big of a pool to figure out who to lynch. BTW, was sudgy able to make use of any of the items yet?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #595 on: June 03, 2014, 11:15:59 am »

Why are you showing that quote?

PPE 1: Completely correct. We should be looking at people's interactions with archetype, and not the item stuff. There's just too big of a pool to figure out who to lynch. BTW, was sudgy able to make use of any of the items yet?

Tell me: What is it you're hoping to find in the interactions with Archetype? We don't even know if he was the target scum chose. And I think sudgy best decides himself whether or not to disclose such information.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #596 on: June 03, 2014, 11:16:49 am »

I'm showing the quote because D1, you obviously were willing to send items to sudgy, and yet you didn't do it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #597 on: June 03, 2014, 11:18:05 am »

I am unwilling to subscribe the possibility that scum correctly guessed Archetype's sent item.

You're unwilling to subscribe to the possibility of an outcome that has a 1/4 chance of occurring?

It's more like I am unwilling to be tunneled into strictly using the items sent as the basis for determining where scum is. This easily works towards a mislynch. I think it is a red herring at this point and there are better places to be looking.

Okay, fair enough. 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #598 on: June 03, 2014, 11:19:56 am »

I am unwilling to subscribe the possibility that scum correctly guessed Archetype's sent item.

You're unwilling to subscribe to the possibility of an outcome that has a 1/4 chance of occurring?

It's more like I am unwilling to be tunneled into strictly using the items sent as the basis for determining where scum is. This easily works towards a mislynch. I think it is a red herring at this point and there are better places to be looking.

Well, I respectfully disagree.

But what do you think of Xerxes then? Even ignoring the evidence that comes from the items, I think he acts all scummy. Might be biased of course.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #599 on: June 03, 2014, 11:26:45 am »

vote: Xerxes
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #600 on: June 03, 2014, 11:35:54 am »

I'm showing the quote because D1, you obviously were willing to send items to sudgy, and yet you didn't do it.
I was willing and I am still willing - my motivations are different from yuma's; I simply didn't know what sudgy wanted and he did not make clear that everyone should send him something. Also, I wasn't sure how the item-sending worked and didn't want to go to the trouble of asking the mod (yeah, I know I'm lazy)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #601 on: June 03, 2014, 11:42:50 am »

I'm showing the quote because D1, you obviously were willing to send items to sudgy, and yet you didn't do it.
I was willing and I am still willing - my motivations are different from yuma's; I simply didn't know what sudgy wanted and he did not make clear that everyone should send him something. Also, I wasn't sure how the item-sending worked and didn't want to go to the trouble of asking the mod (yeah, I know I'm lazy)

Not buying this. Not buying this at all.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #602 on: June 03, 2014, 11:43:52 am »

sudgy made it very clear we were to send him an item each. The only thing that was unclear was who we were potatoing.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #603 on: June 03, 2014, 11:51:27 am »

So what's the actual problem? I can just send him the items tonight (that is, if you don't lynch me) and you can tell me what to send to show I didn't use those items. Town isn't hurt at all by getting sudgy 1 item 1 day late.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #604 on: June 03, 2014, 11:52:55 am »

So what's the actual problem? I can just send him the items tonight (that is, if you don't lynch me) and you can tell me what to send to show I didn't use those items. Town isn't hurt at all by getting sudgy 1 item 1 day late.

It's not about sudgy not getting items, it's about you being scum.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #605 on: June 03, 2014, 11:54:10 am »

But why would it help me as scum? I haven't used and won't use any of the items.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #606 on: June 03, 2014, 11:55:47 am »

But why would it help me as scum? I haven't used and won't use any of the items.

Yeah um we have no way of knowing that. Scum wants to keep their items. Town had a clear plan to give them to the IC. You came up with a flimsy reason to keep your items. Your night item actions make way more sense as scum.

Also, your behavior and reaction to this situation has been incredibly scummy.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #607 on: June 03, 2014, 12:02:25 pm »

Anyone else coming to the same conclusion as these three? If not, I'm calling a scum team that includes at the very least two of Faust/ww/volt. This is OMGUS to some extent, but I think their arguments make so little sense town would not be likely to come up with them.

Also, if everyone's so sure, it's probably in your best interest to leave me alive so I can send all my items to sudgy or whoever. You can lynch me afterward, but let me give away the stuff first so it doesn't get wasted. We're in day2, so there should be some other towny - enough people to give them to if sudgy has way too many items.

PPE: you can confirm tomorrow I'll have sent off the items. Actually, maybe the potato might be useful?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #608 on: June 03, 2014, 12:08:58 pm »

Anyone else coming to the same conclusion as these three? If not, I'm calling a scum team that includes at the very least two of Faust/ww/volt. This is OMGUS to some extent, but I think their arguments make so little sense town would not be likely to come up with them.

Also, if everyone's so sure, it's probably in your best interest to leave me alive so I can send all my items to sudgy or whoever. You can lynch me afterward, but let me give away the stuff first so it doesn't get wasted. We're in day2, so there should be some other towny - enough people to give them to if sudgy has way too many items.

PPE: you can confirm tomorrow I'll have sent off the items. Actually, maybe the potato might be useful?

Not sure why I'm in the set with Faust and Volt.  I just correlated the three scenarios (you and Yuma are both scum, only one scum, or neither scum) to the item claiming made by the scum.  I'm not yet sure which of those three scenarios is most likely.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #609 on: June 03, 2014, 12:12:34 pm »

Anyone else coming to the same conclusion as these three? If not, I'm calling a scum team that includes at the very least two of Faust/ww/volt. This is OMGUS to some extent, but I think their arguments make so little sense town would not be likely to come up with them.

Also, if everyone's so sure, it's probably in your best interest to leave me alive so I can send all my items to sudgy or whoever. You can lynch me afterward, but let me give away the stuff first so it doesn't get wasted. We're in day2, so there should be some other towny - enough people to give them to if sudgy has way too many items.

PPE: you can confirm tomorrow I'll have sent off the items. Actually, maybe the potato might be useful?

Now I wouldn't really mind if you were modkilled, but for fairness' sake, recall that there are some things we are not allowed to talk about.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #610 on: June 03, 2014, 12:18:08 pm »

I don't really feel like responding to Xerxes any more. It's apparent that he just makes up arguments out of thin air, and they crumble as soon as you look at them twice. Let's just lynch him later and use the remaining time to figure out what to do with our items now that we aren't allowed to send them to sudgy.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #611 on: June 03, 2014, 12:38:11 pm »

I'm showing the quote because D1, you obviously were willing to send items to sudgy, and yet you didn't do it.
I was willing and I am still willing - my motivations are different from yuma's;

The point of the plan was to try to catch scum in a lie, and it involved every single person sending an item.  It's too late now.
Quote
I simply didn't know what sudgy wanted and he did not make clear that everyone should send him something.

Regarding sending items, this is what I want everyone to do: Each player send me one item tonight.  If possible, give me a badge or bandage to ensure I get a firefighter, then maybe a privacy curtain later.  Tomorrow I want everyone to tell me what they gave me, and I'll check and see what groups could be telling the truth.  I don't want any more discussion on this plan so that we can discuss better things (LIKE SCUMHUNTING).

That seems pretty not-clear.

I agree that the situation and his reaction make Xerxes likely to be scum.  Vote: XerxesPraelor.  I guess now that makes a scumteam with the IC?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #612 on: June 03, 2014, 01:59:25 pm »

And xp goes quiet after it's clear the IC isn't falling for it.

Unless someone thinks they can sort out XP's partners today, let's quickhammer and get on with it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #613 on: June 03, 2014, 02:09:33 pm »

It's not like I can do anything about it - also I was eating dinner. We have time, so if enough people decide they want to lynch me, I'd like to self-hammer instead of getting hammered, so I can say something without it getting immediately classified as scum talking.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #614 on: June 03, 2014, 02:11:59 pm »

And xp goes quiet after it's clear the IC isn't falling for it.

Unless someone thinks they can sort out XP's partners today, let's quickhammer and get on with it.

I don't want to end the day short, and I have no idea why you would. 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #615 on: June 03, 2014, 02:17:22 pm »

And xp goes quiet after it's clear the IC isn't falling for it.

Unless someone thinks they can sort out XP's partners today, let's quickhammer and get on with it.

I don't want to end the day short, and I have no idea why you would.

I think we've caught scum. Now, a lot of thread bloat is going to happen, at which point we'll lynch XP.

Unless we've missed something huge, that's all that will happen.

There are situations where I think we artificially prolong days, because in a vacuum, ending days early sounds bad. We fail to look at the specifics.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #616 on: June 03, 2014, 02:30:12 pm »

And xp goes quiet after it's clear the IC isn't falling for it.

Unless someone thinks they can sort out XP's partners today, let's quickhammer and get on with it.

I don't want to end the day short, and I have no idea why you would.

I think we've caught scum. Now, a lot of thread bloat is going to happen, at which point we'll lynch XP.

Unless we've missed something huge, that's all that will happen.

There are situations where I think we artificially prolong days, because in a vacuum, ending days early sounds bad. We fail to look at the specifics.

I want to hear what more people have to say.  Especially Yuma, because he is the other one who didn't send an item to Sudgy, and he was vocal about not having an item-sending strategy.

Plus there are other things to analyze.  There is a scum that lied about sending items (in the most probable scenario), and that is not Xerxes, so I want to consider that.  Though maybe this won't be useful until a later day.

There are also non-item things.  To this point:

Sudgy, can you confirm that you did receive the bomb and sent it to PPS?  Did you do any kind of investigations that could be relevant?  (Okay, obviously don't answer that if you think it gives away too much on what you items did/didn't make/use.) If you did receive the bomb, can you let us know what time?  (Are we allowed to ask that kind of thing?  Was it decided that looking at timing of night actions was against the spirit of the game?)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #617 on: June 03, 2014, 02:48:33 pm »

Caught up. Vote: xerxes

I have a mild scum read on PPS, and there's too many possibilities and too much WIFOM for the fact that he sent to bomb to arch to clear him. My scum read on him goes up if xerxes flips scum I think. Jimmmm's been mega-lurking, and people I think are town are suspicious of him, so scum read on him too.

Feeling pretty towny about Yuma, Ash and Volt. I don't have the energy to fish out specific quotes, this all just general impressions from a reread.

Also I never saw the potato last night if we're still keeping track of that.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #618 on: June 03, 2014, 02:53:25 pm »

Feeling pretty towny about Yuma, Ash and Volt.

#thingsyoullneverhearagain
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #619 on: June 03, 2014, 02:57:54 pm »

So from Sudgy, organized by item claimed:

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron
Bandage: PPS
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust

One of those groups has a scum in it, given that Archetype sent something.  I might guess that scum would be earlier to claim the item sent, rather than later. Doing it late makes it look like you're waiting to see what the optimal claim is.  Claiming early has a risk that you may be the only one in the group, but the chance that Sudgy was sent at least one of each item was probably good.  That's just speculation, though.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #620 on: June 03, 2014, 03:18:48 pm »

Sudgy, can you confirm that you did receive the bomb and sent it to PPS?  Did you do any kind of investigations that could be relevant?  (Okay, obviously don't answer that if you think it gives away too much on what you items did/didn't make/use.) If you did receive the bomb, can you let us know what time?  (Are we allowed to ask that kind of thing?  Was it decided that looking at timing of night actions was against the spirit of the game?)

I did get it, so that means the mafia sent it to me (because I'm the IC).
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #621 on: June 03, 2014, 03:28:41 pm »

Sudgy, can you confirm that you did receive the bomb and sent it to PPS?  Did you do any kind of investigations that could be relevant?  (Okay, obviously don't answer that if you think it gives away too much on what you items did/didn't make/use.) If you did receive the bomb, can you let us know what time?  (Are we allowed to ask that kind of thing?  Was it decided that looking at timing of night actions was against the spirit of the game?)

I did get it, so that means the mafia sent it to me (because I'm the IC).

Okay, so MafiaStart -> Sudgy -> PPS -> Archetype is correct, since no one has stepped up and said they were in the chain.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #622 on: June 03, 2014, 04:34:04 pm »

vote: XP

I think Voltaire is bussing (sorry dude).  Although it could be Faust that's bussing, given my scumread there.  But really, Volt's posts read like bussing.

I didn't check the vote count as it won't bother me if this is the hammer.  I doubt it is, though.  Off the top of my head, that's 5 votes?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #623 on: June 03, 2014, 04:38:07 pm »

Nope, not bussing (sorry dude).
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #624 on: June 03, 2014, 05:28:50 pm »

So from Sudgy, organized by item claimed:

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron
Bandage: PPS
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust

One of those groups has a scum in it, given that Archetype sent something.  I might guess that scum would be earlier to claim the item sent, rather than later. Doing it late makes it look like you're waiting to see what the optimal claim is.  Claiming early has a risk that you may be the only one in the group, but the chance that Sudgy was sent at least one of each item was probably good.  That's just speculation, though.

We know there are three persons who have each of the items.

Yuma, Xerxes and Sudgy should item claim. (Sudgy last) That way we get to know what item Archetype had. (actually, we get to know what item the scum-claiming-to-have-sent-the-same-items-as-Achetype really has, but it is probably the same thing)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #625 on: June 03, 2014, 05:31:20 pm »

unvote to see where xeiron's plan goes, which seems good.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #626 on: June 03, 2014, 05:31:48 pm »

So from Sudgy, organized by item claimed:

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron
Bandage: PPS
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust

One of those groups has a scum in it, given that Archetype sent something.  I might guess that scum would be earlier to claim the item sent, rather than later. Doing it late makes it look like you're waiting to see what the optimal claim is.  Claiming early has a risk that you may be the only one in the group, but the chance that Sudgy was sent at least one of each item was probably good.  That's just speculation, though.

We know there are three persons who have each of the items.

Yuma, Xerxes and Sudgy should item claim. (Sudgy last) That way we get to know what item Archetype had. (actually, we get to know what item the scum-claiming-to-have-sent-the-same-items-as-Achetype really has, but it is probably the same thing)

I'm not sure I follow.  Do we know something about the initial distribution of items?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #627 on: June 03, 2014, 05:33:03 pm »

We sure do.

At the END of each night, each player gets a random item (N0 TWO identical items are given to each player), evenly distributed among the 4 possible items (exact proportions will be announced if not symmetrical).

No announcement, so it must have been symmetrical.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #628 on: June 03, 2014, 05:34:08 pm »

I think the plan is flawed.  The setup post says the free random item each night is evenly distributed, but parsing the sentence leads me to believe the two items on N0 are not subject to the same rules.  It's a paranthetical, and they didn't come at the end of the night.

So I think it's a moot plan.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #629 on: June 03, 2014, 05:34:49 pm »

We sure do.

At the END of each night, each player gets a random item (N0 TWO identical items are given to each player), evenly distributed among the 4 possible items (exact proportions will be announced if not symmetrical).

No announcement, so it must have been symmetrical.

End of N1 must have been.  As mentioned, the wording there suggests N0 was different.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #630 on: June 03, 2014, 05:35:42 pm »

Also, we are 11.  Unless arch got something pre-potato death, it couldn't be symmetrical.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #631 on: June 03, 2014, 05:36:03 pm »

EFHW, were N0 items evenly distributed among the 4 types?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #632 on: June 03, 2014, 05:37:34 pm »

Really bad feeling about ash, tempered only by the fact that his "your obviously great protown plan sucks!" as town in Clue.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #633 on: June 03, 2014, 05:37:51 pm »

Oh hey, I completely missed that.  I was trying to figure out if we knew that was the case, because I had thought it might be.  Cool. 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #634 on: June 03, 2014, 05:38:27 pm »

Also, we are 11.  Unless arch got something pre-potato death, it couldn't be symmetrical.

We started with 12?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #635 on: June 03, 2014, 05:39:13 pm »

Really bad feeling about ash, tempered only by the fact that his "your obviously great protown plan sucks!" as town in Clue.

I feel badly about you too, which probably means you are town.

Or we are scum together again.

Either way, there are better lynches today.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #636 on: June 03, 2014, 05:39:38 pm »

Also, we are 11.  Unless arch got something pre-potato death, it couldn't be symmetrical.

We started with 12?

We did.  It's right there in the first post.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #637 on: June 03, 2014, 05:39:57 pm »

So from Sudgy, organized by item claimed:

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron
Bandage: PPS
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust

One of those groups has a scum in it, given that Archetype sent something.  I might guess that scum would be earlier to claim the item sent, rather than later. Doing it late makes it look like you're waiting to see what the optimal claim is.  Claiming early has a risk that you may be the only one in the group, but the chance that Sudgy was sent at least one of each item was probably good.  That's just speculation, though.

We know there are three persons who have each of the items.

Yuma, Xerxes and Sudgy should item claim. (Sudgy last) That way we get to know what item Archetype had. (actually, we get to know what item the scum-claiming-to-have-sent-the-same-items-as-Achetype really has, but it is probably the same thing)

I think Xerxes is scum so he might lie about his items, and yuma has already said he won't item claim.  I think we can't really do anything.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #638 on: June 03, 2014, 05:40:56 pm »

Also, we are 11.  Unless arch got something pre-potato death, it couldn't be symmetrical.

We started with 12?

We did.  It's right there in the first post.

So four sets of three...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #639 on: June 03, 2014, 05:42:01 pm »

I do see the case on Xerxes. It does have some merit, but I am not convinced.

There is one thing I do not understand. If Xerxes is scum, why did he choose to claim not to have sent a item? Wouldn't it be easier for him to just have fakeclaimed something? Would he as scum expect to get away with not sending a item according to the plan?

The situation is a little different for Yuma. If he is scum, he has spent most of D1 creating a excuse for not following any plans. Xerxes has not, so why just not fakeclaim that he followed the plan if he is scum?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #640 on: June 03, 2014, 05:42:28 pm »

Also, we are 11.  Unless arch got something pre-potato death, it couldn't be symmetrical.

We started with 12?

We did.  It's right there in the first post.

So four sets of three...

So you are thinking Arch got an item on N1 even though he died?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #641 on: June 03, 2014, 05:43:44 pm »

So from Sudgy, organized by item claimed:

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron
Bandage: PPS
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust

One of those groups has a scum in it, given that Archetype sent something.  I might guess that scum would be earlier to claim the item sent, rather than later. Doing it late makes it look like you're waiting to see what the optimal claim is.  Claiming early has a risk that you may be the only one in the group, but the chance that Sudgy was sent at least one of each item was probably good.  That's just speculation, though.

We know there are three persons who have each of the items.

Yuma, Xerxes and Sudgy should item claim. (Sudgy last) That way we get to know what item Archetype had. (actually, we get to know what item the scum-claiming-to-have-sent-the-same-items-as-Achetype really has, but it is probably the same thing)

I think Xerxes is scum so he might lie about his items, and yuma has already said he won't item claim.  I think we can't really do anything.

Xerxes already said he has two Paper and one Badge.  If that's true, he had to get Badge last night and start with 2 Paper.*  So he's lying or one of me, Ash, and ADK is.  And it's not me.

*Or he was sent stuff and sent away something, but in that case he lied as well
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #642 on: June 03, 2014, 05:44:09 pm »

yuma, I think it would be extremely pro-town of you to claim your N0 items. I think the POE help against scum would more than make up for revealing this information to scum, who can't directly kill you anyway.

Plus, xerxes's confusion has me wondering if he's really town. In which case, yuma has to be scum, or was that 50/50 not a real thing?

So yeah, this day shouldn't end yet.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #643 on: June 03, 2014, 05:44:48 pm »

Also, we are 11.  Unless arch got something pre-potato death, it couldn't be symmetrical.

We started with 12?

We did.  It's right there in the first post.

So four sets of three...

So you are thinking Arch got an item on N1 even though he died?

Yes, otherwise EFHW failed to make the mod announcement she said she would if items were uneven.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #644 on: June 03, 2014, 05:45:13 pm »

Also, we are 11.  Unless arch got something pre-potato death, it couldn't be symmetrical.

We started with 12?

We did.  It's right there in the first post.

So four sets of three...

So you are thinking Arch got an item on N1 even though he died?

What, no, we're only talking about the *initial* N0 items.  We had to send those all before we received our N1 item.  Those items were distributed evenly (four sets of three pairs) amongst the 12 players.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #645 on: June 03, 2014, 05:45:24 pm »

Sudgy can confirm I had paper.  I like ww's think.  XP seems to be toast.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #646 on: June 03, 2014, 05:46:42 pm »

Xerxes already said he has two Paper and one Badge.  If that's true, he had to get Badge last night and start with 2 Paper.*  So he's lying or one of me, Ash, and ADK is.  And it's not me.

*Or he was sent stuff and sent away something, but in that case he lied as well

Juicy. I have a through-the-roof town read on WW, scum read on ash, scum read on xerxes, and forgot ADK was in the game. Hmm.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #647 on: June 03, 2014, 05:47:33 pm »

Also, we are 11.  Unless arch got something pre-potato death, it couldn't be symmetrical.

We started with 12?

We did.  It's right there in the first post.

So four sets of three...

So you are thinking Arch got an item on N1 even though he died?

What, no, we're only talking about the *initial* N0 items.  We had to send those all before we received our N1 item.  Those items were distributed evenly (four sets of three pairs) amongst the 12 players.

I've already pointed out that the phrasing of the sentencing excludes N0 from symmetry, to my eye.  I think N0 was full random, and then starting with N1, we get symmetry.

Your previous point stands, though, about N1.  Arch had to get an item posthumously for there not to be an announcement on D2.

(Or EfHW forgot...I didn't get my item until the day had been underway awhile.)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #648 on: June 03, 2014, 05:48:39 pm »

Xerxes already said he has two Paper and one Badge.  If that's true, he had to get Badge last night and start with 2 Paper.*  So he's lying or one of me, Ash, and ADK is.  And it's not me.

*Or he was sent stuff and sent away something, but in that case he lied as well

Juicy. I have a through-the-roof town read on WW, scum read on ash, scum read on xerxes, and forgot ADK was in the game. Hmm.

I hope I'm lynched/potatoed before you so I can yet again laugh at your horrible ash-dar again.  Unless you are scum.  Good job, then.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #649 on: June 03, 2014, 05:48:56 pm »

I've already pointed out that the phrasing of the sentencing excludes N0 from symmetry, to my eye.  I think N0 was full random, and then starting with N1, we get symmetry.

Well, I asked, and I think it's a confusion a mod can clear up. So now we wait.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #650 on: June 03, 2014, 05:49:21 pm »

So from Sudgy, organized by item claimed:

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron
Bandage: PPS
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust

One of those groups has a scum in it, given that Archetype sent something.  I might guess that scum would be earlier to claim the item sent, rather than later. Doing it late makes it look like you're waiting to see what the optimal claim is.  Claiming early has a risk that you may be the only one in the group, but the chance that Sudgy was sent at least one of each item was probably good.  That's just speculation, though.

We know there are three persons who have each of the items.

Yuma, Xerxes and Sudgy should item claim. (Sudgy last) That way we get to know what item Archetype had. (actually, we get to know what item the scum-claiming-to-have-sent-the-same-items-as-Achetype really has, but it is probably the same thing)

I think Xerxes is scum so he might lie about his items, and yuma has already said he won't item claim.  I think we can't really do anything.

Xerxes might lie, true, but he has about 50% chance to get immediately screwed if he do. (unless he knows what yuma has). If Yuma still refuses to item claim after we give him a good reason, I say we should lynch him. Good chances both xerxes and yuma is scum anyway.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #651 on: June 03, 2014, 05:49:33 pm »

Anyway if Xerxes turns up scum and Sudgy and Yuma item claim (their N0 items ONLY), then we can probably deduce what Xerxes and Arch had.  That should let us narrow down where the other scum is.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #652 on: June 03, 2014, 05:49:41 pm »

I've already pointed out that the phrasing of the sentencing excludes N0 from symmetry, to my eye.  I think N0 was full random, and then starting with N1, we get symmetry.

Well, I asked, and I think it's a confusion a mod can clear up. So now we wait.

Full agreement here.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #653 on: June 03, 2014, 05:49:45 pm »

Vote Count 2.1  

ashersky (1): xeiron
Jimmmmm (1): yuma
XerxesPraelor (4): faust, sudgy, A Drowned Kernel, ashersky
faust (1): XerxesPraelor
Not voting (4): Jimmmmm, pingpongsam, Witherweaver, Voltaire
 
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, June 9th at 8:45 pm
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #654 on: June 03, 2014, 05:50:02 pm »

*2.2
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #655 on: June 03, 2014, 05:50:08 pm »

I hope I'm lynched/potatoed before you so I can yet again laugh at your horrible ash-dar again.  Unless you are scum.  Good job, then.

Wouldn't you rather convince me you're town so we can both work to prevent that?  :P
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #656 on: June 03, 2014, 05:51:09 pm »

Also, we are 11.  Unless arch got something pre-potato death, it couldn't be symmetrical.

We started with 12?

We did.  It's right there in the first post.

So four sets of three...

So you are thinking Arch got an item on N1 even though he died?

What, no, we're only talking about the *initial* N0 items.  We had to send those all before we received our N1 item.  Those items were distributed evenly (four sets of three pairs) amongst the 12 players.

I've already pointed out that the phrasing of the sentencing excludes N0 from symmetry, to my eye.  I think N0 was full random, and then starting with N1, we get symmetry.

Your previous point stands, though, about N1.  Arch had to get an item posthumously for there not to be an announcement on D2.

(Or EfHW forgot...I didn't get my item until the day had been underway awhile.)

Oh, I see what you're saying.  Yeah I was reading it the other way.  We'll wait for EFHW confirmation.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #657 on: June 03, 2014, 05:51:44 pm »

I hope I'm lynched/potatoed before you so I can yet again laugh at your horrible ash-dar again.  Unless you are scum.  Good job, then.

Wouldn't you rather convince me you're town so we can both work to prevent that?  :P

I would.  But I've never succeeded at that, really.  The true ash town tell is how much you think I'm playing for me instead of everyone.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #658 on: June 03, 2014, 06:12:29 pm »

Why are you dividing everything up so scum-centrically? That sort of organization is much more likely to come from scum who was thinking about who to send stuff to. vote: faust

By far, the most likely thing is that 3 scum claimed to have sent items, and two of them did.

Here's what you're pretty much doing with your argument.
-------------------
Okay, here are the main cases.

1. Faust isn't scum
2. Faust is scum, and his partners are ash and ww
3. Faust is scum, and his partners are yuma and jimmm
4. Faust is scum, and his partners are pps and adk.
5. Faust is scum, and his partners are voltaire and xeiron
6....

Look how likely it is that faust is scum!
-----------------

Now that things have calmed down, I'm re-reading, and I just can't see this post coming from town. Xerxes, convince me you're town and wrote this post anyway.
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #659 on: June 03, 2014, 06:13:26 pm »

I am unwilling to subscribe the possibility that scum correctly guessed Archetype's sent item.

What other explanation do you propose then? That one town member claimed to have sent an item they actually didn't send? Or that Arch failed to send an item? I don't believe that.
You think the possibility that arch forgot to send an item is worth considering in comparison to 25%?

I have reason to believe that Arch did NOT forget to send an item.

ash, do you still think faust is scum?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #660 on: June 03, 2014, 06:15:18 pm »

I'm showing the quote because D1, you obviously were willing to send items to sudgy, and yet you didn't do it.
I was willing and I am still willing - my motivations are different from yuma's; I simply didn't know what sudgy wanted and he did not make clear that everyone should send him something. Also, I wasn't sure how the item-sending worked and didn't want to go to the trouble of asking the mod (yeah, I know I'm lazy)

I also can't believe this.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #661 on: June 03, 2014, 06:17:54 pm »

I'm showing the quote because D1, you obviously were willing to send items to sudgy, and yet you didn't do it.
I was willing and I am still willing - my motivations are different from yuma's; I simply didn't know what sudgy wanted and he did not make clear that everyone should send him something. Also, I wasn't sure how the item-sending worked and didn't want to go to the trouble of asking the mod (yeah, I know I'm lazy)

I also can't believe this.

This is the biggest thing, I think.  Not being sure how item sending works doesn't make sense, because he specifically chimed in on the item-sending strategy yesterday.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #662 on: June 03, 2014, 06:18:32 pm »

So from Sudgy, organized by item claimed:

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron
Bandage: PPS
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust

One of those groups has a scum in it, given that Archetype sent something.  I might guess that scum would be earlier to claim the item sent, rather than later. Doing it late makes it look like you're waiting to see what the optimal claim is.  Claiming early has a risk that you may be the only one in the group, but the chance that Sudgy was sent at least one of each item was probably good.  That's just speculation, though.

Who gets the scum!points in this line of thinking?
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #663 on: June 03, 2014, 06:22:04 pm »

Hey! paper is confirmable.

Why not have Xerxes, WW and ADK make a letter tonight and send it with a item to someone.
That way we can find out if anyone is fakeclaiming. (At least get a indication. It is not a failproof plan.)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #664 on: June 03, 2014, 06:23:36 pm »

So from Sudgy, organized by item claimed:

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron
Bandage: PPS
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust

One of those groups has a scum in it, given that Archetype sent something.  I might guess that scum would be earlier to claim the item sent, rather than later. Doing it late makes it look like you're waiting to see what the optimal claim is.  Claiming early has a risk that you may be the only one in the group, but the chance that Sudgy was sent at least one of each item was probably good.  That's just speculation, though.

Who gets the scum!points in this line of thinking?

Haven't looked back and gone through it yet. But I believe Sudgy's list was in order of claim, and that list is sub-ordered by Sudgy's, so sub-ordered by claim.  So by that logic, Ash, Jimmm, PPS, Voltaire. 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #665 on: June 03, 2014, 06:24:28 pm »

Hey! paper is confirmable.

Why not have Xerxes, WW and ADK make a letter tonight and send it with a item to someone.
That way we can find out if anyone is fakeclaiming. (At least get a indication. It is not a failproof plan.)

Well, someone could have received a Paper as their N1 item. 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #666 on: June 03, 2014, 06:34:49 pm »

Hey! paper is confirmable.

Why not have Xerxes, WW and ADK make a letter tonight and send it with a item to someone.
That way we can find out if anyone is fakeclaiming. (At least get a indication. It is not a failproof plan.)

Well, someone could have received a Paper as their N1 item.

That is one way it may fail.

The other way is that you send the letter to someone that dies during the night.

I still think it is worth trying as long as we remember that this plan might prove someone is lying, but will never prove anyone innocent.

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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #667 on: June 03, 2014, 08:01:44 pm »

Getting caught up.

Xerxes already said he had paper... I have been waiting all day long for someone to finally notice what I did that it is likely there are only 3 players holding onto the four items... obviously waiting for confirmation from EFHW on that.

I initially received bandages.

Now as I was reading along at work, my initial thought was that this looked like a route to a mislynch. It just had the feel of what I think PPS said. What I felt was that mafia likely did what was necessary and gave up items and were honest about it--and then complained, perhaps rightly so, to EFHW and the rule change was put into place about sending items.

The reason I didn't send items was two fold. First I didn't want all of our eggs in one basket. I realize that sudgy was unlikely to die last night, but he is more likely to die tonight or later nights. If he dies with all the items then we just waste them. The second reason is a bit harsh, I didn't trust him. After his lack of showing up at the end of day I was pretty upset with him and didn't trust him to properly use or take care of the items. Obviously I trust his alignment, but I wasn't willing to give them to him in a way that I might have to an IC whose judgement I trusted a bit more.

In the end I am happy with it because apparently I am now the only player allowed to send sudgy items tonight. I might or might not... but at least I have that option. Obviously I didn't know that at the time but it worked out pretty well.

Now back to Xerxes. Like I said I felt that we were leaning toward a mislynch til I noticed that he had claimed to have paper when another 3 players had indicated paper already. If we get EFHW confirmation that is damning enough to make me forgo my conclusions about him.

Also I have a scum read on Voltaire for basically the way he has acted all day long...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #668 on: June 03, 2014, 08:33:16 pm »

I am unwilling to subscribe the possibility that scum correctly guessed Archetype's sent item.

What other explanation do you propose then? That one town member claimed to have sent an item they actually didn't send? Or that Arch failed to send an item? I don't believe that.
You think the possibility that arch forgot to send an item is worth considering in comparison to 25%?

I have reason to believe that Arch did NOT forget to send an item.

ash, do you still think faust is scum?

I have a scumread still, if that's the same.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #669 on: June 03, 2014, 08:47:34 pm »

Also I have a scum read on Voltaire for basically the way he has acted all day long...

Really! I am quite frankly rather surprised by this. Please elaborate.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #670 on: June 03, 2014, 09:20:30 pm »

Really! I am quite frankly rather surprised by this. Please elaborate.

Okedoke. My read was an overall impression from you while I read the e-mails of the posts at work, so let me go back and see if I can solidify it down a bit for you.

I guess for me the main thing I am seeing is that you quickly asserted that Xerxes was scum when I felt the evidence was scanty and still pretty confusing and up in the air:

specifically your first vote for him. It does come after a pretty lengthy conversation between him and faust, but mostly that conversation left me feeling that the Xerxes wagon was leading toward a mislynch as PPS said here:
I am unwilling to subscribe the possibility that scum correctly guessed Archetype's sent item.

You're unwilling to subscribe to the possibility of an outcome that has a 1/4 chance of occurring?

It's more like I am unwilling to be tunneled into strictly using the items sent as the basis for determining where scum is. This easily works towards a mislynch. I think it is a red herring at this point and there are better places to be looking.

Maybe this is because I never fully understood how people arrived at the logic that one of xerxes and I must be scum. I should look it over again, but it appeared to me that there was something missing in the assumptions. But anyways... the real issue for me was that you never actually got into the specifics of that or analyzed it.

instead your posts were more about his responses... which I felt was where the wagon started to take on a mislynch a confused townie feel. Xerxes obviously said some weird things but I don't like how you relied completely on these posts to justify your vote. The "didn't know what sudgy wanted" post and the "being willing to send items tonight" posts are examples.

Especially scummy to me was your post calling him out for "going quiet" I just don't like those sort of posts... meta analyzing availability is something scum does.

Add in that I didn't like how quickly you wanted to shut down the day. People haven't talked yet. Jimmmm has been wholey absent aside from like 1 post. That felt forced adn scummy to me.

Now, for me a lot of this read goes away if Xerxes flips scum, which with more solid evidence (especially once confirmed by EFHW if the setup is what we think it is) then you had initially.

You might be bussing, but I don't really see that. Mostly I am just saying that if Xerxes ends up flipping town I will probably be suspicious of you given my impression of you throughout the wagon building process. If he flips scum, I'll look at you but not necessarily more than anyone else.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #671 on: June 03, 2014, 09:32:06 pm »

EFHW, were N0 items evenly distributed among the 4 types?

yes
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #672 on: June 03, 2014, 09:35:29 pm »

EFHW, were N0 items evenly distributed among the 4 types?

yes

Alright, so a paper person is lying, right, as that's 5 paper claims.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #673 on: June 03, 2014, 09:37:28 pm »

Actually not.

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK, XP
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron + 1
Bandage: PPS, yuma + 1
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust + 1

So...one of the paper liars actually is one of the other three, Arch is one of the other three, and then sudgy is one of the other three.

So scum in {WW ADK XP} for sure, right?

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #674 on: June 03, 2014, 09:40:37 pm »

yep... ash, sudgy verified your note sending?

vote: xerxes
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #675 on: June 03, 2014, 09:43:11 pm »

yep... ash, sudgy verified your note sending?

vote: xerxes

Sudgy can, don't think he has yet.  Waiting on him.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #676 on: June 03, 2014, 09:43:54 pm »

I don't know if ash's stance that the wording was ambiguous has any significance as I certainly read it as being the way that it was. Or rather I didn't see the ambiguity that he saw, but he is the English major... I am just a lowly journalism/medical technology major.

If Xerxes flips town then ADK and WW should send notes to sudgy (or someone else they think won't die),

If xerxes flips scum I think they should use their items for a more effective purpose as verification won't be needed.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #677 on: June 03, 2014, 10:06:01 pm »

Wait. Xerxes can self hammer.  Let Sudgy claim N0 items first.

Then we can lynch Xerxes. 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #678 on: June 03, 2014, 10:07:08 pm »

I don't think we want sudgy to claim his actions at this point. There isn't a need I think.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #679 on: June 03, 2014, 10:08:18 pm »

Yes for other scum.  Read my previous post.  We can PoE Arch item and figure out group liar must be in.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #680 on: June 03, 2014, 10:08:36 pm »

his items I mean... no one beside sudgy needs to know what item he received N0 right? we are missing three items. One from xerxes if he is in fact lying. one from sudgy and one from archetype. What purpose at this point does sudgy claiming his N0 actions help town?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #681 on: June 03, 2014, 10:08:58 pm »

ok, reading it
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #682 on: June 03, 2014, 10:11:40 pm »

Xerxes was likely truthful about not sending something.  So scum is in one of the claims.  We may be able to figure out what Xerxes and Arch had.  Xerxes probably has whatever he said that wasn't paper.

Even if not, it still narrows it down to two groups.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #683 on: June 03, 2014, 10:12:58 pm »

Anyway if Xerxes turns up scum and Sudgy and Yuma item claim (their N0 items ONLY), then we can probably deduce what Xerxes and Arch had.  That should let us narrow down where the other scum is.

I assume you mean this one?

I don't think we can... well maybe we can deduce a group that it should exclude, which might be worth it

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK, (Xerxes)
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron, ?
Bandage: PPS, (yuma), ?
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust, ?

me and xerxes in parathensis as we didn't send those items

But... no... doesn't everything match up for what sudgy received? Why are you assuming that scum lied about what they had/sent aside from Xerxes?

For example ash could very easily be scum and still sent sudgy paper with a note. Nothing prevents that from being a possibility.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #684 on: June 03, 2014, 10:14:34 pm »

Yes but Sudgy received 8 items with 9 claimed sent including aarch.  One claim must be scum.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #685 on: June 03, 2014, 10:19:13 pm »

Yes but Sudgy received 8 items with 9 claimed sent including aarch.  One claim must be scum.

Ah... arch's item. I gotcha. Wait...

I guess I was still under the impression that the ? meant he didn't receive anything from archetype

ash: Paper
WW: Paper
yuma: Nothing
Jim: Badge
PPS: Bandage
ADK: Paper
Voltaire: Magnifying Glass
faust: Magnifying Glass
xeiron: Badge
Xerxes: Nothing
Archetype: ?

I received all of these items, no more, no less.  Take from it what you will.

But if he did receive something then sudgy already knows what archetype sent to him and knows which group is lying. He just needs to tell us and doesn't need to actually claim what item he received N0 as the item he had and the item sent by arch are no for all intents and purposes equal, yes?

So he still needs to clarify and if arch did send an item can tell us where to PoE w/o giving up more information, although I guess at that point it doesn't matter as it is deduceable...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #686 on: June 03, 2014, 10:26:10 pm »

Yes but Sudgy received 8 items with 9 claimed sent including aarch.  One claim must be scum.

Ah... arch's item. I gotcha. Wait...

I guess I was still under the impression that the ? meant he didn't receive anything from archetype

ash: Paper
WW: Paper
yuma: Nothing
Jim: Badge
PPS: Bandage
ADK: Paper
Voltaire: Magnifying Glass
faust: Magnifying Glass
xeiron: Badge
Xerxes: Nothing
Archetype: ?

I received all of these items, no more, no less.  Take from it what you will.

But if he did receive something then sudgy already knows what archetype sent to him and knows which group is lying. He just needs to tell us and doesn't need to actually claim what item he received N0 as the item he had and the item sent by arch are no for all intents and purposes equal, yes?

So he still needs to clarify and if arch did send an item can tell us where to PoE w/o giving up more information, although I guess at that point it doesn't matter as it is deduceable...

Sudgy doesn't know who sent him want, he only gets that he got an item, not who sent it.  Sudgy knows what he has, so he can figure out the two sets that Xerxes and Arch must have started with.  But if he tells us that it's the same as telling us what he originally had.

Look, each group of 4 items must have exactly 3 people in it.  We have all the information but Sudgy, Archetype, and Xerxes. Sudgy only has his information, not Arch's.  Sudgy releases his info we have 2 groups where the liar must be.  We can maybe figure out what Xerxes really had (my hunch is the non-Paper item claim was true), so we might be able to get it down to 1 group.

On the off-chance Sudgy dies tonight, we lose that information.  So we have it narrowed down to 3 (maybe 2) groups instead of 2 (maybe 1).
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #687 on: June 03, 2014, 10:38:07 pm »

Alright, I am confused. but that is ok at this point. Just make sure not to reveal more information than necessary. You seem to have a better grasp than I do.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #688 on: June 03, 2014, 10:39:36 pm »

We have 3 "missing" items in the starter kit list.  One has to be Sudgy.  So that leaves 2 items missing.  One could be Archetype, the other could be Xerxes's real thing.  Is that right?

Sudgy should know which item has too many people (other than paper) if there is one.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #689 on: June 03, 2014, 10:41:15 pm »

We have 3 "missing" items in the starter kit list.  One has to be Sudgy.  So that leaves 2 items missing.  One could be Archetype, the other could be Xerxes's real thing.  Is that right?

Sudgy should know which item has too many people (other than paper) if there is one.

Yes that's right.  But Sudgy can share that information, and I think he should, in case he somehow gets offed tonight.

So my point was, if Xerxes is scum he probably knows he's cornered, so he might self hammer, so unvote for now.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #690 on: June 03, 2014, 10:43:41 pm »

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK, (Xerxes)
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron, ?
Bandage: PPS, (yuma), ?
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust, ?

To make this easier to read.  We have two sets of data: what we all started the game with and what we all claimed to have sent.  One is as complete as possible, one is incomplete.  The two data sets are above, with ( ) meaning not sent.

So we know that the Paper liar (Xerxes), sudgy, and Archetype are the three question marks.  Sudgy knows which question mark is him.  We don't know which question mark is Xerxes and which is Arch.

But, if Xerxes is the only lying scum (definitely possible), then knowing which item sudgy has doesn't help us do anything at all.

What everyone knows now is sudgy has a shit ton of items, and what they are.

tldr; I think there's not much more to be deduced from item information that I can see.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #691 on: June 03, 2014, 10:46:26 pm »

Xerxes is 100% caught, right?

Sudgy confirmed receiving three papers, we have three paper senders claimed, and then we have Xerxes claiming to have NOT sent paper.  But it's impossible for him to have paper and not send it and for sudgy to receive three papers, since there were only three papers to begin with.  So Xerxes is absolutely lying, unless one of the other three lied and Xerxes lied and actually did sent it, but that makes zero sense.

So Xerxes is 100% caught in a fake claim.

Okay.

As for "get more info before Xerxes selfhammers" I don't agree.  We get no further info if sudgy claims his starting item, but it does tell scum everything, because they'll know which of the two items left Xerxes actually had.  They'll have full item information and we will not.

So FOS: WW for pushing this.  Sudgy, do NOT claim your starting item.

Someone hammer Xerxes.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #692 on: June 03, 2014, 10:47:19 pm »

No no, Xerxes isn't the only lying scum.  Sudgy received 8 items.  8 people claimed they sent one, but so did Archetype.  Xerxes claimed to send nothing.  So there must be another scum that claimed to send items.  This is in addition to Xerxes.  If we fill out the table we can figure out what group that liar is in, and figure out what set of 3 the other scum is.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #693 on: June 03, 2014, 10:48:34 pm »

What are you talking about?  If Xerxes is scum, the others for sure know what items he actually had already. 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #694 on: June 03, 2014, 10:52:34 pm »

No no, Xerxes isn't the only lying scum.  Sudgy received 8 items.  8 people claimed they sent one, but so did Archetype.  Xerxes claimed to send nothing.  So there must be another scum that claimed to send items.  This is in addition to Xerxes.  If we fill out the table we can figure out what group that liar is in, and figure out what set of 3 the other scum is.

But we don't KNOW that arch sent an item, we assume it.

Here, hypothetical for you.  Sudgy's starting item was Badge, for example.  Now we know...what?  That we have exactly three claimed Badges, and sudgy received two, so they're not lying.  We also know that Xerxes had Bandage or Mag, and that Arch had Bandage or Mag.  Scum knows which is which.

How do we use that new information to find the lying scum?  Maybe it works but I'm missing it.  Like, what if PPS is the other scum, didn't send anything, but guessed correctly on Arch's bandage?  We can't know that or catch him based on new info from sudgy.  Same for Voltaire.

I think you think that we'll know the lying scum is within a subset of 5 players that are in the two item categories that sudgy is NOT in.  But in actuality, the liar could be anyone, if they got lucky with whatever Arch's item was.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #695 on: June 03, 2014, 10:53:02 pm »

What are you talking about?  If Xerxes is scum, the others for sure know what items he actually had already.

But the other scum DO NOT know what SUDGY or ARCHETYPE had.  I mean, they might think they know what Arch had due to their fake claim working, but they're not sure.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #696 on: June 03, 2014, 10:54:31 pm »

Yes, but look.  Take your example.  We can deduce that scum must lie in either {Bandage set, Mag set}.

We cut down the field by half.

I'm saying the liar is in whatever set has Arch in it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #697 on: June 03, 2014, 10:55:09 pm »

As for 8/8 items received/sent, the possibilities are:

--Arch didn't send an item
--Scum lied and claims Arch's item

I believe those are the two scenarios.  Knowing sudgy's item doesn't tell us Arch's, so it doesn't tell us who lied and got credit for his send.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #698 on: June 03, 2014, 10:55:46 pm »

Well, or if one set ends up being four.  Either way, we have a much smaller set to look.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #699 on: June 03, 2014, 10:55:57 pm »

Yes, but look.  Take your example.  We can deduce that scum must lie in either {Bandage set, Mag set}.

We cut down the field by half.

I'm saying the liar is in whatever set has Arch in it.

We're saying the same thing.  Except how will we know what set Arch was in?  We won't.

There's also the small chance he just didn't send anything.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #700 on: June 03, 2014, 10:57:13 pm »

Well, or if one set ends up being four.  Either way, we have a much smaller set to look.

Can't end up being 4.  No matter what item sudgy claims, unless we know what either XP or Arch has, it won't work.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #701 on: June 03, 2014, 10:59:23 pm »

Yes, but look.  Take your example.  We can deduce that scum must lie in either {Bandage set, Mag set}.

We cut down the field by half.

I'm saying the liar is in whatever set has Arch in it.

We're saying the same thing.  Except how will we know what set Arch was in?  We won't.

There's also the small chance he just didn't send anything.

Well we'll know one of two sets, the other being the ones Xerxes really had.

Yes, this is operating under the assumption that Archetype sent an item to Sudgy.  So you're right we have to consider that, but he did say he was going to, and he was Town, so it's a decent one.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #702 on: June 03, 2014, 10:59:57 pm »

Especially scummy to me was your post calling him out for "going quiet" I just don't like those sort of posts... meta analyzing availability is something scum does.

Like...not trusting the IC? Not sending him items because he didn't show up at deadline? Etc?

This felt like a stronger point in my head.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #703 on: June 03, 2014, 11:02:36 pm »

Plus Xerxes said this:

Oh, I didn't send anything to anyone because I wasn't sure what the plan was. I still have 1 bandage and 2 papers.

long before he was caught.  There's a good chance the bandage part is true.  So if Xerxes is Bandage, and Sudgy is one of the others, then we have some fairly compelling evidence that there is a liar in the remaining one.  Yes there are possibilities that it's wrong, but I feel it's good info to have.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #704 on: June 03, 2014, 11:03:17 pm »

catching up btw
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #705 on: June 03, 2014, 11:03:33 pm »

Especially scummy to me was your post calling him out for "going quiet" I just don't like those sort of posts... meta analyzing availability is something scum does.

Like...not trusting the IC? Not sending him items because he didn't show up at deadline? Etc?

This felt like a stronger point in my head.

the context is completely different. xerxes "disappeared" for a few minutes. Sudgy deliberately didn't post as an IC. And one is questioning alignment the other is questioning... well... questioning commitment and involvement in the game. I am not trying to lynch sudgy obviously. You were trying to lynch xerxes and using rationale that I don't like to push it.

But like I said before, I think it is all aside as it is becoming apparent that xerxes will flip scum and thus much of what I felt about you is set aside as most of it was contingent on when I felt that xerxes would likely be a mislynch.
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #706 on: June 03, 2014, 11:24:06 pm »

We get no further info if sudgy claims his starting item, but it does tell scum everything, because they'll know which of the two items left Xerxes actually had.  They'll have full item information and we will not.

So FOS: WW for pushing this.  Sudgy, do NOT claim your starting item.

Someone hammer Xerxes.

Huge FOS on ash for this. Assumes xerxes is scum then assumes scum doesn't know his items.

!!!!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #707 on: June 03, 2014, 11:25:28 pm »

I see WW already pointed this out. Good.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #708 on: June 03, 2014, 11:27:49 pm »

I trust WW and I don't trust ash. So sudgy should do whatever WW is asking.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #709 on: June 03, 2014, 11:58:52 pm »

We get no further info if sudgy claims his starting item, but it does tell scum everything, because they'll know which of the two items left Xerxes actually had.  They'll have full item information and we will not.

So FOS: WW for pushing this.  Sudgy, do NOT claim your starting item.

Someone hammer Xerxes.

Huge FOS on ash for this. Assumes xerxes is scum then assumes scum doesn't know his items.

!!!!

WTF are you talking about?  Scum will know because they already know.  Town won't know because we won't ever know.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #710 on: June 04, 2014, 12:01:14 am »

We get no further info if sudgy claims his starting item, but it does tell scum everything, because they'll know which of the two items left Xerxes actually had.  They'll have full item information and we will not.

So FOS: WW for pushing this.  Sudgy, do NOT claim your starting item.

Someone hammer Xerxes.

Huge FOS on ash for this. Assumes xerxes is scum then assumes scum doesn't know his items.

!!!!

WTF are you talking about?  Scum will know because they already know.  Town won't know because we won't ever know.

100% clear Volt is scrambling scum with his partner caught.  This was just a ridiculous leapt of logic on his part.  And it's because he knows what Xp has.

To reiterate, scum know all but the starting items of SUDGY and ARCH.  If sudgy claims, they'll know all because they already know xp's item.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #711 on: June 04, 2014, 12:01:56 am »

Happy to die now so long as you lynch xp's and volt.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #712 on: June 04, 2014, 12:16:55 am »

We get no further info if sudgy claims his starting item, but it does tell scum everything, because they'll know which of the two items left Xerxes actually had.  They'll have full item information and we will not.

So FOS: WW for pushing this.  Sudgy, do NOT claim your starting item.

Someone hammer Xerxes.

Huge FOS on ash for this. Assumes xerxes is scum then assumes scum doesn't know his items.

!!!!

WTF are you talking about?  Scum will know because they already know.  Town won't know because we won't ever know.

100% clear Volt is scrambling scum with his partner caught.  This was just a ridiculous leapt of logic on his part.  And it's because he knows what Xp has.

To reiterate, scum know all but the starting items of SUDGY and ARCH.  If sudgy claims, they'll know all because they already know xp's item.

But then the only unknown for scum is  whether Sudgy started with X and received one of Y from Arch or started with Y and received one of X from Arch.  So they know it's either 2X 1Y or 1X 2Y.   (They know what X and Y are.)

Well, assuming Arch sent something.  Which they would know.  If Arch didn't send anything, then yeah they wouldn't know which extra 2 items Sudgy has. 

So yeah there's a risk.  I guess the big concern is scum knowing if Sudgy can hit a critical 4 of something.  But they already have additional unknowns of what item Sudgy gets tonight and what item Yuma (if he's town) may send Sudgy tonight.  So I don't know if this extra one (possibly two) known item makes a key difference.  It seems to me that the benefit of isolating a subset were scum is very likely to be is greater than the risk. 
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ashersky

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #713 on: June 04, 2014, 12:17:50 am »

Vote: Voltaire

I think we should pull a Jimmmm and leave the caught scum around for easy lynching later.  It's clear we'll catch his partners through interactions, and I'm seeing them come together already since he's shot himself in the foot.

Voltaire: have you ever had a best friend that you caught sleeping with your girlfriend?  That's the level of betrayal I'm feeling from you right now (in the context of the game).  You did a great job of buddying this game, and I bought it.  I'm sorry I did.  I won't be interacting with you anymore (in this game).

I am willing to vote for the following subset of players, in descending order of preference, and will only change my vote at the behest of sudgy:

Voltaire
ashersky
faust
WW
yuma
Xerxes

I'm confident the three scum we seek are within that five players, based on what we've seen so far on Days 1 and 2, especially looking at interactions with and on XP.  Voltaire for over-the-top scumminess, faust for D1 stuff and odd defenders, WW for his too-good-to-be-true towniness and his IC-item fishing, yuma for my townread on him + defense of faust, and XP for being caught scum.

One very good course of action would be to just lynch XP and figure stuff out on D3.  If that's what sudgy prefers, I'll adhere to it.  But I do think a Jimmmmm is worth considering.  It would have helped town (I think) in Choc Fact when he caught me as a Cop.  It would be useful here.  You'd have to be strong about ignoring everything XP says.  We've never tried it before on f.ds and it's worth a shot.

I'm open to listening to sudgy and a few others, but not XP or Voltaire at this point.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #714 on: June 04, 2014, 12:20:16 am »

We get no further info if sudgy claims his starting item, but it does tell scum everything, because they'll know which of the two items left Xerxes actually had.  They'll have full item information and we will not.

So FOS: WW for pushing this.  Sudgy, do NOT claim your starting item.

Someone hammer Xerxes.

Huge FOS on ash for this. Assumes xerxes is scum then assumes scum doesn't know his items.

!!!!

WTF are you talking about?  Scum will know because they already know.  Town won't know because we won't ever know.

100% clear Volt is scrambling scum with his partner caught.  This was just a ridiculous leapt of logic on his part.  And it's because he knows what Xp has.

To reiterate, scum know all but the starting items of SUDGY and ARCH.  If sudgy claims, they'll know all because they already know xp's item.

But then the only unknown for scum is  whether Sudgy started with X and received one of Y from Arch or started with Y and received one of X from Arch.  So they know it's either 2X 1Y or 1X 2Y.   (They know what X and Y are.)

Well, assuming Arch sent something.  Which they would know.  If Arch didn't send anything, then yeah they wouldn't know which extra 2 items Sudgy has. 

So yeah there's a risk.  I guess the big concern is scum knowing if Sudgy can hit a critical 4 of something.  But they already have additional unknowns of what item Sudgy gets tonight and what item Yuma (if he's town) may send Sudgy tonight.  So I don't know if this extra one (possibly two) known item makes a key difference.  It seems to me that the benefit of isolating a subset were scum is very likely to be is greater than the risk.

I'll say this again, and you may even be agreeing with me, but I can't tell:

Scum knows everything we know, plus:

--XP's real starter item, and whether he sent it

That's it.  Now, here's what we (town) don't know:

--XP's real starter item, and whether he sent it
--Arch's starter item, and whether he sent it
--sudgy's starter item

If sudgy claims his starter item, town still doesn't know the first two points up there.  However, since scum already knows the first point, they will learn the second point.  By learning all points, they will have a full inventory list for sudgy's possessions, will know what we can build and deploy, and will be able to base their night actions on that.

I think this is bad.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #715 on: June 04, 2014, 12:27:18 am »

Okay yes that's true.  But they already have the full inventory modulo the 1X-2Y vs. 2X-1Y that I pointed out before. 

The benefit, however, is that we all get the extra bit of information on which two sets of three players the other scum is.  And with a somewhat reasonable assumption, we can narrow it down to which set of three.  That's a pretty big plus, I think, especially if we can add on other interactions, etc. to deduce where that player is. 

Sudgy already has the info, so I guess he can decide whether he should let us know or not.  And if he lives long enough, he can let us know at a later time, if that's better.  There's just a risk there. 
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ashersky

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #716 on: June 04, 2014, 12:50:03 am »

Okay yes that's true.  But they already have the full inventory modulo the 1X-2Y vs. 2X-1Y that I pointed out before. 

The benefit, however, is that we all get the extra bit of information on which two sets of three players the other scum is.  And with a somewhat reasonable assumption, we can narrow it down to which set of three.  That's a pretty big plus, I think, especially if we can add on other interactions, etc. to deduce where that player is. 

Sudgy already has the info, so I guess he can decide whether he should let us know or not.  And if he lives long enough, he can let us know at a later time, if that's better.  There's just a risk there.

I guess is the 1X-2Y vs. 2X-1Y sufficiently unknown enough for scum to not be totally sure of what could happen?  If it doesn't really matter either way, then there's less harm in getting the information out there.  So I agree with you there, if that's the case.

In the end, definitely up to sudgy.  I'm usually one to argue for more info out in the open.  I'm just worried that, given we're in such a good spot right now, giving away more information to scum isn't helping us.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #717 on: June 04, 2014, 01:03:14 am »

vote: Xerxes
Let's cut this day short; I'm going to get lynched anyways.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #718 on: June 04, 2014, 01:30:48 am »

We get no further info if sudgy claims his starting item, but it does tell scum everything, because they'll know which of the two items left Xerxes actually had.  They'll have full item information and we will not.

So FOS: WW for pushing this.  Sudgy, do NOT claim your starting item.

Someone hammer Xerxes.

Huge FOS on ash for this. Assumes xerxes is scum then assumes scum doesn't know his items.

!!!!

WTF are you talking about?  Scum will know because they already know.  Town won't know because we won't ever know.

100% clear Volt is scrambling scum with his partner caught.  This was just a ridiculous leapt of logic on his part.  And it's because he knows what Xp has.

To reiterate, scum know all but the starting items of SUDGY and ARCH.  If sudgy claims, they'll know all because they already know xp's item.

That's what I'm saying about you!!! And XP hammered. Crap...?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #719 on: June 04, 2014, 01:33:26 am »

Voltaire: have you ever had a best friend that you caught sleeping with your girlfriend?  That's the level of betrayal I'm feeling from you right now (in the context of the game).  You did a great job of buddying this game, and I bought it.  I'm sorry I did.  I won't be interacting with you anymore (in this game).

Ash is also scum. What - the hell. When did I ever buddy you? Never? Ever. Seriously. I never did this. Re-read. Never. Seriously. Can't betray you if I rarely/never had a town read on you!
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #720 on: June 04, 2014, 01:34:16 am »

But christ, explicitly insane ash is town!ash. I hate this.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #721 on: June 04, 2014, 01:34:30 am »

I can't help it, you bait me so.

XP didn't hammer, so no reason for you to be saying "crap" like your chances have been squashed at a win.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #722 on: June 04, 2014, 01:35:50 am »

No, scum, he has to be. There's no way.

PPE: I thought XP was at L-1, is he not? unvote everything, catching up right now?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #723 on: June 04, 2014, 01:36:54 am »

There is no way WW can't be town, ash. No way! How is what he's doing not insanely pro-town to the point where if he's scum we should let him keep going because he's playing the strongest pro-town game?

What's the vote, where is XP if he isn't hammered? Self-votes make me nervously re-evaluate.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #724 on: June 04, 2014, 01:38:25 am »

Vote count?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #725 on: June 04, 2014, 01:38:49 am »

There is no way WW can't be town, ash. No way! How is what he's doing not insanely pro-town to the point where if he's scum we should let him keep going because he's playing the strongest pro-town game?

What's the vote, where is XP if he isn't hammered? Self-votes make me nervously re-evaluate.

XP was at L-1, then I voted for you, then he put himself at L-1 with the self-vote.  We're all in agreement that XP is scum and done.

As for WW, I agree that he's been insanely towny.  The only people that towny are scum acting towny.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #726 on: June 04, 2014, 01:40:09 am »

The only people that towny are scum acting towny.

*fart sound*

No way. That's stupid.

So I could hammer xp is what you are saying?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #727 on: June 04, 2014, 01:40:40 am »

Vote Count 2.3  

ashersky (1): xeiron
XerxesPraelor (5): faust, sudgy, A Drowned Kernel, yuma, XP
Voltaire (1): ashersky

Not voting (4): Jimmmmm, pingpongsam, Witherweaver, Voltaire
 
With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, June 9th at 8:45 pm
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #728 on: June 04, 2014, 01:41:41 am »

Whoops, mod can edit that to take out colors and stuff.  That's not an official count, I just quoted the last one.

Anyway, the numbers are right.  You had unvoted based on the xeiron plan.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #729 on: June 04, 2014, 01:41:58 am »

The only people that towny are scum acting towny.

*fart sound*

No way. That's stupid.

So I could hammer xp is what you are saying?

And yes, it is possible for you to hammer XP.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #730 on: June 04, 2014, 01:42:57 am »

Not hammering until sudgy claims since that makes sense right now. Someone other than ash post something. I think I'm talking to scum right now.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #731 on: June 04, 2014, 01:50:43 am »

I know most everyone is asleep. Here is my tipsy thought process:

1. ash is scum
2. wait don't make assumptions
3. xp is scum
4. ash likes to go down in chaos
5. xp is caught scum
6. ash finds everyone townie scummy
7. ash likes to cause chaos
8. wait I said that
9. scenarios where ash is town and ash is scum both exist
10. can't think of anything where xp is town

but I thought we needed sudgy to claim.

SUDGY CLAIM N0 ITEMS I want to hammer xp but ash has me paranoid.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #732 on: June 04, 2014, 01:56:11 am »

I'm not seeing what we get by me claiming N0 items.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #733 on: June 04, 2014, 01:57:18 am »

I'm not seeing what we get by me claiming N0 items.

That's what I've been saying!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #734 on: June 04, 2014, 01:57:36 am »

I will hammer XP if sudgy says to.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #735 on: June 04, 2014, 01:58:14 am »

I'm not seeing what we get by me claiming N0 items.

WW had a point? It sounded good?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #736 on: June 04, 2014, 01:59:41 am »

I will hammer XP if sudgy says to.

I don't like this. I am paranoid.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #737 on: June 04, 2014, 01:59:59 am »

I know most everyone is asleep. Here is my tipsy thought process:

1. ashVoltaire is scum
2. wait don't make assumptions
3. xp is scum
4. ash likes to go down in chaos
5. xp is caught scum
6. ash finds everyone scum!Voltaire finds townie scummy
7. ash likes to cause chaos likes to follow ash
8. wait I said that
9. scenarios where ashany player except XP is town and ashany player is scum both exist
10. can't think of anything where xp is town

FTFY
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #738 on: June 04, 2014, 02:00:38 am »

I will hammer XP if sudgy says to.

I don't like this. I am paranoid.

I prefer to lynch you, but I think the consensus seems to be lynch XP.  I like hammers, I have a record, so I'll do what sudgy wants in the end.

But really, we should all vote: voltaire.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #739 on: June 04, 2014, 02:01:01 am »

I'm not seeing what we get by me claiming N0 items.

WW had a point? It sounded good?

Because he's your partner spreading chaos?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #740 on: June 04, 2014, 02:02:08 am »

I'm not seeing what we get by me claiming N0 items.

WW had a point? It sounded good?

Because he's your partner spreading chao
s?

Jesus, this is the paradox. You are insane finding obv!town scum. Crap. It makes me worried about xp, thinking what are the odds you are bussing, what are the odds I am way wrong about you, etc.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #741 on: June 04, 2014, 02:03:14 am »

I'm not seeing what we get by me claiming N0 items.

WW had a point? It sounded good?

Because he's your partner spreading chao
s?

Jesus, this is the paradox. You are insane finding obv!town scum. Crap. It makes me worried about xp, thinking what are the odds you are bussing, what are the odds I am way wrong about you, etc.

I have a townread on WW.  I really do.  He just scares me because he's made some bad assumptions that help scum, plus he's been on the wrong side of a few arguments/reads.  Plus, man he's always scum, so there's a bias.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #742 on: June 04, 2014, 02:03:32 am »

WW is the new Teproc. He speaks the sense, etc. Sudgy, I know I am a bit incoherent right now, but please re-read WW and think through what he says. I am 99% sure you claiming your N0 items is good/helps us POE scum (that isn't XP).
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #743 on: June 04, 2014, 02:05:25 am »

If EFHW was here, I'd hammer to lock the thread to keep the IC from claiming stuff for scum!voltaire.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #744 on: June 04, 2014, 02:05:44 am »

WW is the new Teproc. He speaks the sense, etc. Sudgy, I know I am a bit incoherent right now, but please re-read WW and think through what he says. I am 99% sure you claiming your N0 items is good/helps us POE scum (that isn't XP).

If you could actually give a reason, that'd be amazing, thanks.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #745 on: June 04, 2014, 02:06:41 am »

If EFHW was here, I'd hammer to lock the thread to keep the IC from claiming stuff for scum!voltaire.

THe fact you aren't hammering has me so curious. So so so so so so so so so so so so so curious.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #746 on: June 04, 2014, 02:07:03 am »

sudgy, if you claim, you are giving scum ALL the information possible in the game.

You are giving town a possibly shrunken lynch pool based on half-info, when we ought to be basing our scumhunting on posts and interaction on D3.  Scum WANTS us to get it wrong with setup talk and instead ignore their posts.

DO NOT CLAIM, just ORDER THE HAMMER.

Or tell everyone to vote for Voltaire.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #747 on: June 04, 2014, 02:07:29 am »

If EFHW was here, I'd hammer to lock the thread to keep the IC from claiming stuff for scum!voltaire.

THe fact you aren't hammering has me so curious. So so so so so so so so so so so so so curious.

Why won't you hammer your partner?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #748 on: June 04, 2014, 02:08:10 am »

If EFHW was here, I'd hammer to lock the thread to keep the IC from claiming stuff for scum!voltaire.

THe fact you aren't hammering has me so curious. So so so so so so so so so so so so so curious.

Why won't you hammer your partner?

I'm trying to figure out if you're refusing to do the same thing!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #749 on: June 04, 2014, 02:08:16 am »

See the Robz quote in my signature?  That's what you are trying to emulate, Voltaire.  But it doesn't work as scum, because it just isn't believable.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #750 on: June 04, 2014, 02:08:44 am »

If EFHW was here, I'd hammer to lock the thread to keep the IC from claiming stuff for scum!voltaire.

THe fact you aren't hammering has me so curious. So so so so so so so so so so so so so curious.

Why won't you hammer your partner?

I'm trying to figure out if you're refusing to do the same thing!

sudgy's online, I'm not going to preempt the IC.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #751 on: June 04, 2014, 02:11:27 am »

I am going to assume non-gross incompetence on the part of theoretical, not-present town!xp. Because that is the thing that matters here, not ash, the maybe-partner. Why the self-vote, why the lying, why the insanity on xp. The problem is I' ve seen town do this before (shraye, cop in NMV) and ash with plans (Clue) and yuma, just yuma, argh meta. So...sudgy, I take it you're not claiming?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #752 on: June 04, 2014, 02:21:05 am »

vote: XP
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #753 on: June 04, 2014, 02:21:45 am »

ho boy
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #754 on: June 04, 2014, 02:24:30 am »

I cannot believe you were going to try to save XP.  INSANE.  What is wrong with you?  Like, if you are town, why?  But if you are scum, as I believe WHY?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #755 on: June 04, 2014, 02:25:47 am »

Trying to figure out if you are his partner, or if he was terrible town and you scum jumping on his insanity.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #756 on: June 04, 2014, 02:26:32 am »

also sudgy time to claim

this iwas in m y clipboard


vote: xp
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #757 on: June 04, 2014, 02:31:59 am »

also sudgy time to claim


No, NO CLAIMING.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #758 on: June 04, 2014, 02:32:52 am »

Trying to figure out if you are his partner, or if he was terrible town and you scum jumping on his insanity.

That's dumb, I wasn't the one who got his wagon/case going.  If you think XP is town (why in the world do you think this?) then look at the start of this wagon and case for the "scum" pushing it.

Oh, wait, that's WW, whom you think is the most perfect of all town players ever.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #759 on: June 04, 2014, 02:33:11 am »

also sudgy time to claim


No, NO CLAIMING.

Explain why WW's plan doesn't work.

I also meant not hammering to give sudgy time to claim N0 items to help CATCH XP's PARTNER
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #760 on: June 04, 2014, 02:33:21 am »

Actually it was faust, I take that WW part back.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #761 on: June 04, 2014, 02:34:08 am »

Actually it was faust, I take that WW part back.

You can't even keep your tunneling straight.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #762 on: June 04, 2014, 02:36:14 am »

also sudgy time to claim


No, NO CLAIMING.

Explain why WW's plan doesn't work.

I also meant not hammering to give sudgy time to claim N0 items to help CATCH XP's PARTNER

You clearly haven't read anything I've said.

WW's plan is "sudgy claims."  That's his entire f'ing plan.  Tell me how that's a great plan, man.

So sudgy claims, then we all get to know what item he had.  And it tells us zilch, because if knowing sudgy's item helps us catch scum, sudgy would have already told us in his post about how he got all the items.  He would have said "oh, so all these items came, but it's impossible that X and Y sent me Z because I ALREADY HAD ONE" or something.

So, if sudgy claims, we get nothing.  However, scum gets more (read: all) information.

WW continues to believe that a sudgy claim let's us narrow the lynch pool of possible scum who lied about sending an item to about 50% of what's there now.  I continue to tell him that it doesn't really work that way, as you're only really removing 1/3 of the lynch pool (assuming the papers are all honest, which I'm not).  Because that's the biggest flaw -- it completely takes Papers out of the equation, but really, there could easily be scum in the Papers group, too.

So no, sudgy claiming gives us nothing.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #763 on: June 04, 2014, 02:37:02 am »

Actually it was faust, I take that WW part back.

You can't even keep your tunneling straight.

Sometimes tunnels curve, depending on the mountain.

I'm not tunneling WW anyway, you are just freaking out about me having him in my lynch pool.

You and Faust are most likely, followed by WW and yuma.  That's not tunneling, that's just being incredibly awesome.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #764 on: June 04, 2014, 02:40:13 am »

You go so far back and forth between me and faust and WW and yuma and anyone worried about you. You're scattershot, man.

WW's plan is more than "sudgy claims". It's "that lets us figure out POE for other scum people", which you conveniently leave out.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #765 on: June 04, 2014, 02:46:44 am »

flippy flippy flip flip flip
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #766 on: June 04, 2014, 02:49:40 am »

You go so far back and forth between me and faust and WW and yuma and anyone worried about you. You're scattershot, man.

WW's plan is more than "sudgy claims". It's "that lets us figure out POE for other scum people", which you conveniently leave out.

No one is worried about me except you.

Does it really let us figure out POE for other scum people?  Because I just laid out how it doesn't.

If I'm the lying scum, knowing sudgy's starting item doesn't help you at all.  Same for PPS or Jimmmmm or you or WW or anyone.  That's why it isn't helpful to anyone but scum.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #767 on: June 04, 2014, 04:19:59 am »

Vote: Voltaire

I think we should pull a Jimmmm and leave the caught scum around for easy lynching later.  It's clear we'll catch his partners through interactions, and I'm seeing them come together already since he's shot himself in the foot.

Voltaire: have you ever had a best friend that you caught sleeping with your girlfriend?  That's the level of betrayal I'm feeling from you right now (in the context of the game).  You did a great job of buddying this game, and I bought it.  I'm sorry I did.  I won't be interacting with you anymore (in this game).

I am willing to vote for the following subset of players, in descending order of preference, and will only change my vote at the behest of sudgy:

Voltaire
ashersky
faust
WW
yuma
Xerxes

I'm confident the three scum we seek are within that five players, based on what we've seen so far on Days 1 and 2, especially looking at interactions with and on XP.  Voltaire for over-the-top scumminess, faust for D1 stuff and odd defenders, WW for his too-good-to-be-true towniness and his IC-item fishing, yuma for my townread on him + defense of faust, and XP for being caught scum.

One very good course of action would be to just lynch XP and figure stuff out on D3.  If that's what sudgy prefers, I'll adhere to it.  But I do think a Jimmmmm is worth considering.  It would have helped town (I think) in Choc Fact when he caught me as a Cop.  It would be useful here.  You'd have to be strong about ignoring everything XP says.  We've never tried it before on f.ds and it's worth a shot.

I'm open to listening to sudgy and a few others, but not XP or Voltaire at this point.

Huge FOS on ashersky for this. Xerxes still has items he can use against us, or send to his fellow mafia players. Having him stay alive one more night is exactly what scum wants, so that they can squeeze all the usefulness out of him before losing him.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #768 on: June 04, 2014, 04:28:20 am »

Why the early hammer?

Anyway, Sudgy should claim. We cannot be sure that he will survive the night.

If he does , we will reduce one of the mafia down to 4 persons (the 3/4 who sent a item other than paper and the one sudgy has.

The other mafia can still be anybody. (either yuma, or somebody who atually sent to sudgy what he claimed to send).
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #769 on: June 04, 2014, 09:13:26 am »

Well, it appears we do have a hammer so I'm treating this as twilight.

If there is scum between Volatire/ashersky I would pick Voltaire based strictly off of emotive gut reads which I like to think I am good at. The one person I would be surprised to discover to be scum is WitherWeaver, however. I have been suspicious of his overly pro-town play but I can't fault it although I do agree getting sudgy to claim has been on his agenda. I feel good about xeiron being town.

I am anxious to see which way xerxes flip. I think I will be surprised if he is Town and i ma having trouble parsing what that means for who would then appear to be scum. I believe I will trouble myself with that exercise if he flips town. I do think yuma stands a decent chance of being scum although overall his play strikes me as Town. His D1 play really reads as scum!yuma, though. I think it likely he got coached out of that behavior in the QT last night.

faust/ashersky I am ambivalent on. Jimmmmm and ADK both deserve a policy lynch and may easily be lurking scum.

the good news for me here is that I've found a much better perspective of lots of scummy possibilities rather than a tunnel although Voltaire remains a top possibility.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #770 on: June 04, 2014, 09:16:27 am »

Why the early hammer?

Anyway, Sudgy should claim. We cannot be sure that he will survive the night.

If he does , we will reduce one of the mafia down to 4 persons (the 3/4 who sent a item other than paper and the one sudgy has.

The other mafia can still be anybody. (either yuma, or somebody who atually sent to sudgy what he claimed to send).

Right, this.  The point is as long as Archetype sent an item, then one scum claimed to send that item but actually sent nothing.  That's the only way the numbers work out.

So if we can narrow down what item Arch started with we can narrow down where that scum is.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #771 on: June 04, 2014, 10:21:55 am »

You go so far back and forth between me and faust and WW and yuma and anyone worried about you. You're scattershot, man.

WW's plan is more than "sudgy claims". It's "that lets us figure out POE for other scum people", which you conveniently leave out.

No one is worried about me except you.

Does it really let us figure out POE for other scum people?  Because I just laid out how it doesn't.

If I'm the lying scum, knowing sudgy's starting item doesn't help you at all.  Same for PPS or Jimmmmm or you or WW or anyone.  That's why it isn't helpful to anyone but scum.

So I had had it in my head last night that we were able to exclude this case, but now I'm not so sure.   

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #772 on: June 04, 2014, 11:41:24 am »

EFHW has been active on the forums since the hammer, but no lock and flip.  :'(
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #773 on: June 04, 2014, 11:49:49 am »

Well, I'm scum, in case you were still worried.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #774 on: June 04, 2014, 11:51:10 am »

Well, I'm scum, in case you were still worried.

+1 nice points for you, sir!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #775 on: June 04, 2014, 01:15:19 pm »

Final Vote Count  
ashersky (1): xeiron
XerxesPraelor (6): faust, sudgy, A Drowned Kernel, yuma, XP, ashersky

Not voting (4): Jimmmmm, pingpongsam, Witherweaver, Voltaire
 
With 11 alive, it took 6 to lynch.

XP was Mafia and Backup Arsonist

Hot Potato order and actions hoping to influence the Hot Potato due 7 pm TODAY.

Item sending orders due by 1 pm Thursday.

Day 3 starts 1 pm Saturday.

THREAD LOCKED
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 01:24:55 pm by EFHW »
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - N2!
« Reply #776 on: June 04, 2014, 07:29:26 pm »

Clarification: The orders due at 7 pm were only those affecting the initial bomb sending.  Your orders of what to do if you receive the bomb are not due until after you actually get the bomb though you can send them sooner if you wish.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - N2!
« Reply #777 on: June 05, 2014, 07:38:10 pm »

Hopefully helpful reminders and clarifications:

You can use powers the same night you make them.
Track/Watch/Follow/Voyeur do not see item sending, or potato sending after the first.  They do see both priming and ignition.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #778 on: June 07, 2014, 01:17:17 pm »

Day 3 Starts

The detectives and mafia of Wikiville woke up to find packages on their doorsteps, left by the faithful carrier pigeons that brought vital supplies into town each night.  But why were there only 9 pigeons?  Yesterday there were 11.  No one knew.  Arriving at the center of town, they noticed the streets were deserted, here and there someone peeped fearfully from behind curtains and then darted away back into hiding.   They looked at each other, puzzled, and then they realized, where was Jimmmmm?  Entering headquarters, they saw the potato fragments all over the room first, and then they saw Jimmmmm’s body.  Their noble comrade, a Vanilla Townie, had fallen in the line of duty.  As one, they turned to Chief Detective sudgy for guidance ...

N2 the pigeons brought in 3 paper, 2 magnifying glasses, 2 badges, and 2 bandages
N1 the pigeons brought in 3 paper, 3 magnifying glasses, 3 badges, and 2 bandages

Since you are only allowed one form of protection at a time, you WILL be informed if you own a fireproof and when it is used up.

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EFHW

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #779 on: June 07, 2014, 01:20:04 pm »

Vote Count 3.0

not voting (9): A Drowned Kernel, ashersky, faust, pingpongsam, sudgy, Voltaire, Witherweaver, xeiron, yuma

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline is Sunday, June 15th at 1 pm

THREAD UNLOCKED
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #780 on: June 07, 2014, 07:17:34 pm »

Vote!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #781 on: June 07, 2014, 07:21:37 pm »

So ADKs potato-chain idea?  I did not see it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #782 on: June 07, 2014, 07:24:30 pm »

Oh, there is a poll.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #783 on: June 07, 2014, 07:25:25 pm »

Vote!

huh? I still think the mod should just make a decision and stick to it, so I won't be voting. Just tell me the rules and I will play by them
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #784 on: June 07, 2014, 07:28:29 pm »

But that's only taking about who gets it tomorrow, right?  We can still analyze last night's chain.

Also, I don't know if I ever resolved the item thing.  But I think maybe Ash was right.  Xeiron?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #785 on: June 07, 2014, 07:30:51 pm »

I think I got roleblocked, just to let everyone know what type of stuff scum has been doing (I had something return no result when something should have happened).

I sent the bomb to PPS again.  Who did you send it to?

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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

ashersky

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #786 on: June 07, 2014, 08:33:25 pm »

vote: voltaire

Lynching off wagon today.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #787 on: June 07, 2014, 08:45:37 pm »

Vote!

huh? I still think the mod should just make a decision and stick to it, so I won't be voting. Just tell me the rules and I will play by them

This was the plan all along, as I stated at the time.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #788 on: June 07, 2014, 08:51:10 pm »

Sudgy, would you mind claiming your starting item? If you do we could pinpoint one of the scum down to 2-3 persons.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #789 on: June 07, 2014, 08:53:16 pm »

But that's only taking about who gets it tomorrow, right?  We can still analyze last night's chain.

Also, I don't know if I ever resolved the item thing.  But I think maybe Ash was right.  Xeiron?

What item thing are you talking about?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #790 on: June 07, 2014, 08:55:30 pm »

But that's only taking about who gets it tomorrow, right?  We can still analyze last night's chain.

Also, I don't know if I ever resolved the item thing.  But I think maybe Ash was right.  Xeiron?

What item thing are you talking about?

The same thing you are.  That knowing Sudgy's item would tell us where Arch + Xerxes are.  But I'm not sure of that any more.  How do we know the liar of the 8 claimers did not claim the same item Sudgy has?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #791 on: June 07, 2014, 09:00:55 pm »

Kill was off wagon.  I'm assuming one scum on, one off.  1/4 chance at least to catch off.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #792 on: June 07, 2014, 09:05:38 pm »

But that's only taking about who gets it tomorrow, right?  We can still analyze last night's chain.

Also, I don't know if I ever resolved the item thing.  But I think maybe Ash was right.  Xeiron?

What item thing are you talking about?

The same thing you are.  That knowing Sudgy's item would tell us where Arch + Xerxes are.  But I'm not sure of that any more.  How do we know the liar of the 8 claimers did not claim the same item Sudgy has?

Because sudgy recieved the exact same items as was claimed to be sent. And since Archetype probably sent something, someone must have fakeclaimed to have sent the item Achetype had.

The other scum must have spoken the truth, either about not sending a item (yuma) or sending a item (everyone else).
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #793 on: June 07, 2014, 09:06:51 pm »

Kill was off wagon.  I'm assuming one scum on, one off.  1/4 chance at least to catch off.

But the kill need not have been targeted by scum.  What does him being of wagon say?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #794 on: June 07, 2014, 09:08:00 pm »

But that's only taking about who gets it tomorrow, right?  We can still analyze last night's chain.

Also, I don't know if I ever resolved the item thing.  But I think maybe Ash was right.  Xeiron?

What item thing are you talking about?

The same thing you are.  That knowing Sudgy's item would tell us where Arch + Xerxes are.  But I'm not sure of that any more.  How do we know the liar of the 8 claimers did not claim the same item Sudgy has?

Because sudgy recieved the exact same items as was claimed to be sent. And since Archetype probably sent something, someone must have fakeclaimed to have sent the item Achetype had.

The other scum must have spoken the truth, either about not sending a item (yuma) or sending a item (everyone else).

Yeah, but Arch could have sent what Sudgy has and scum could gave claimed that.  Right?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #795 on: June 07, 2014, 09:08:54 pm »

Kill was off wagon.  I'm assuming one scum on, one off.  1/4 chance at least to catch off.

But the kill need not have been targeted by scum.  What does him being of wagon say?

Nothing, I suppose.  You are right.  Except why did Jimmmmm die?  Maybe he was first, it got tossed to other scum, he tossed to Jimmmm again.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #796 on: June 07, 2014, 09:09:25 pm »

Kill was off wagon.  I'm assuming one scum on, one off.  1/4 chance at least to catch off.
I will not be suprised to find all three on... Anyway we have more reliable methods than wagon assumptions to base a lynch on today. Like item sending.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #797 on: June 07, 2014, 09:11:42 pm »

Kill was off wagon.  I'm assuming one scum on, one off.  1/4 chance at least to catch off.

But the kill need not have been targeted by scum.  What does him being of wagon say?

Nothing, I suppose.  You are right.  Except why did Jimmmmm die?  Maybe he was first, it got tossed to other scum, he tossed to Jimmmm again.

No. No-one except scum would send it to Sudgy. And since someone did, scum did not send it (more than once) to Jimm.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #798 on: June 07, 2014, 09:16:46 pm »

Do we care about items last night?  I'm assuming not.  I think we need to focus on trying to do useful things at night.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #799 on: June 07, 2014, 09:18:36 pm »

But that's only taking about who gets it tomorrow, right?  We can still analyze last night's chain.

Also, I don't know if I ever resolved the item thing.  But I think maybe Ash was right.  Xeiron?

What item thing are you talking about?

The same thing you are.  That knowing Sudgy's item would tell us where Arch + Xerxes are.  But I'm not sure of that any more.  How do we know the liar of the 8 claimers did not claim the same item Sudgy has?

Because sudgy recieved the exact same items as was claimed to be sent. And since Archetype probably sent something, someone must have fakeclaimed to have sent the item Achetype had.

The other scum must have spoken the truth, either about not sending a item (yuma) or sending a item (everyone else).

Yeah, but Arch could have sent what Sudgy has and scum could gave claimed that.  Right?

Not likely, but yes they could. Archetype could have paper or the same type of item as Sudgy if and only if a scum fakeclaimed a item other that the one he actually has. 
If this is the case, we might catch scum in a lie with a new item claiming round. What items did people send last night. The same type as they claimed to have from N0? or something else?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #800 on: June 07, 2014, 09:20:24 pm »

Do we care about items last night?  I'm assuming not.  I think we need to focus on trying to do useful things at night.
Yes we care about them. Better to use the information to do useful things at day (lynching scum) than relying on night actions.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #801 on: June 07, 2014, 09:24:17 pm »

Only Yuma could send to Sudgy last night.  And other unknowns, like what Jimmmm got, and what the scum got, on N1.

I'm not sure claiming anything beyond N0 is goof
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #802 on: June 07, 2014, 09:41:30 pm »

I think I got roleblocked, just to let everyone know what type of stuff scum has been doing (I had something return no result when something should have happened).

I sent the bomb to PPS again.  Who did you send it to?

God almighty, why? I sent it to Jimmmmm.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #803 on: June 07, 2014, 10:05:37 pm »

So...

Mafia --- sudgy --- PPS --- jimmmmm...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #804 on: June 07, 2014, 11:01:17 pm »

Here, catching up. Something important happened.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #805 on: June 07, 2014, 11:05:40 pm »

I think I got roleblocked, just to let everyone know what type of stuff scum has been doing (I had something return no result when something should have happened).

I sent the bomb to PPS again.  Who did you send it to?

God almighty, why? I sent it to Jimmmmm.

Why the first part of your post here?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #806 on: June 07, 2014, 11:38:08 pm »

Never mind.  :(
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #807 on: June 08, 2014, 01:15:15 am »

Pretty sure that I was the only player who didn't claim to send an item yesterday so would be the only one that was telling the truth and could send an item to sudgy...

I sent an item last night, but won't say what it is as sudgy should know what it is as I expect it was the only one received?

I still have a townread on ash. voltaire is on the townier side (despite their crazy argument from the end of last night)

jimmmm was a pretty good potato target, that is who I chose to send it to (but I am pretty sure I never touched the potato)

Also I was sent an item. I can't imagine scum sending me an item unless for WIFOM purposes but there are more important things to do with their items and apparently they used some to make a roleblock (according to sudgy). If someone is willing to fess up to sending me this item and say what it was I think that person would become pretty close confirmed town to me (unless it was sudgy who sent it... but I kinda doubt that as he seems to think I am scummy). I can't think of a reason to not talk specifically about this
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #808 on: June 08, 2014, 01:15:31 am »

Here, catching up. Something important happened.

What did you think happened?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #809 on: June 08, 2014, 01:26:27 am »

Also I was sent an item. I can't imagine scum sending me an item unless for WIFOM purposes but there are more important things to do with their items and apparently they used some to make a roleblock (according to sudgy). If someone is willing to fess up to sending me this item and say what it was I think that person would become pretty close confirmed town to me (unless it was sudgy who sent it... but I kinda doubt that as he seems to think I am scummy). I can't think of a reason to not talk specifically about this

When was that?

I think I got roleblocked, just to let everyone know what type of stuff scum has been doing (I had something return no result when something should have happened).

I sent the bomb to PPS again.  Who did you send it to?

God almighty, why? I sent it to Jimmmmm.

I realized I didn't have any major scumreads, and I still hadn't worked out your situation (XP mixed things up).
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #810 on: June 08, 2014, 10:13:03 am »

Here, catching up. Something important happened.

What did you think happened?

It actually did happen. I have result on someone. I'm still working through what it means, but I'm 90% sure it means they're scum at the moment.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #811 on: June 08, 2014, 10:13:19 am »

I misunderstood what it meant last night.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #812 on: June 08, 2014, 10:24:58 am »

So xp was the backup arsonist. This means that the arsonist certainly primed someone last night (unless scum waved a white flag  :P). It looks like the arsonist could also have been the person to start the potato, as I see nothing in the rules saying they can't.

Quote
The mafia first sending the bomb may not target their initial target again in the same night, but their partners may. Only the first sending of the bomb is visible to investigations.

I'm actually going back and forth on what my result means. I've not said it yet because it might be better if every other player claims (something tiny, if sudgy approves) to ensure if my result target is scum they can't lie their way out of it, but that may not be possible. Let me spend more time looking over the setup, I don't know what to make of everything.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #813 on: June 08, 2014, 10:36:20 am »

So xp was the backup arsonist. This means that the arsonist certainly primed someone last night (unless scum waved a white flag  :P). It looks like the arsonist could also have been the person to start the potato, as I see nothing in the rules saying they can't.

Quote
The mafia first sending the bomb may not target their initial target again in the same night, but their partners may. Only the first sending of the bomb is visible to investigations.

I'm actually going back and forth on what my result means. I've not said it yet because it might be better if every other player claims (something tiny, if sudgy approves) to ensure if my result target is scum they can't lie their way out of it, but that may not be possible. Let me spend more time looking over the setup, I don't know what to make of everything.

What type of claiming?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #814 on: June 08, 2014, 10:39:34 am »

What type of claiming?

Not 100% certain yet. I have a question to EFHW outstanding about it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #815 on: June 08, 2014, 11:13:28 am »

Poll result is to allow bomb talk.



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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #816 on: June 08, 2014, 11:28:54 am »

What type of claiming?

Not 100% certain yet. I have a question to EFHW outstanding about it.

I got my answer.

I would need people to claim who they targeted with a power, not with the bomb or with items sent. If you think it isn't worth it, I'll just claim my result.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #817 on: June 08, 2014, 11:59:40 am »

I'll be heading out soon for most of the day. Sudgy, either start claiming or just tell me to post my result when I get back.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #818 on: June 08, 2014, 12:07:12 pm »

I think I can also clear someone with about 95% certainty!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #819 on: June 08, 2014, 02:09:31 pm »

I targeted Jimmmmm with a spy. I got results and they are not inconsequential because his power should resolve ahead of the potato. I spied him because I suspected him. I potatoed him because I suspected him. When he flipped Town it lent clarity to my spy result.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #820 on: June 08, 2014, 04:27:50 pm »

I targeted Jimmmmm with a spy. I got results and they are not inconsequential because his power should resolve ahead of the potato. I spied him because I suspected him. I potatoed him because I suspected him. When he flipped Town it lent clarity to my spy result.

Volt didn't ask for specifics, just who we targeted.  Anyway, I think it's okay to say who we targeted without saying what we did.  Everyone, please do so.

With us being able to talk about the potato, we'll go back to Potato: someone syntax.  I will say who we are potatoing 48 hours before deadline.  That's the potato deadline.  Time after that will be just for a lynch.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #821 on: June 08, 2014, 04:28:14 pm »

I targeted Jimmmmm with a spy. I got results and they are not inconsequential because his power should resolve ahead of the potato. I spied him because I suspected him. I potatoed him because I suspected him. When he flipped Town it lent clarity to my spy result.

Volt didn't ask for specifics, just who we targeted.  Anyway, I think it's okay to say who we targeted without saying what we did.  Everyone, please do so.

With us being able to talk about the potato, we'll go back to Potato: someone syntax.  I will say who we are potatoing 48 hours before deadline.  That's the potato deadline.  Time after that will be just for a lynch.

Time before that should be used to find a lynch too, but I'm just saying that the time after that is only for it.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #822 on: June 08, 2014, 04:33:15 pm »

I targeted Jimmmmm with a spy. I got results and they are not inconsequential because his power should resolve ahead of the potato. I spied him because I suspected him. I potatoed him because I suspected him. When he flipped Town it lent clarity to my spy result.

Volt didn't ask for specifics, just who we targeted.  Anyway, I think it's okay to say who we targeted without saying what we did.  Everyone, please do so.

I have not revealed what I know Jimmmmm to have done.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #823 on: June 08, 2014, 04:56:53 pm »

I targeted Jimmmmm with a spy. I got results and they are not inconsequential because his power should resolve ahead of the potato. I spied him because I suspected him. I potatoed him because I suspected him. When he flipped Town it lent clarity to my spy result.

Volt didn't ask for specifics, just who we targeted.  Anyway, I think it's okay to say who we targeted without saying what we did.  Everyone, please do so.

I have not revealed what I know Jimmmmm to have done.

But you revealed what it was you targeted him with.  It's not much, but I think the less information for scum, the better (unless it's a positive investigation result or such).

Also, I'm claiming after everyone else.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #824 on: June 08, 2014, 06:12:34 pm »

Pretty sure that I was the only player who didn't claim to send an item yesterday so would be the only one that was telling the truth and could send an item to sudgy...

I sent an item last night, but won't say what it is as sudgy should know what it is as I expect it was the only one received?

I still have a townread on ash. voltaire is on the townier side (despite their crazy argument from the end of last night)

jimmmm was a pretty good potato target, that is who I chose to send it to (but I am pretty sure I never touched the potato)

Also I was sent an item. I can't imagine scum sending me an item unless for WIFOM purposes but there are more important things to do with their items and apparently they used some to make a roleblock (according to sudgy). If someone is willing to fess up to sending me this item and say what it was I think that person would become pretty close confirmed town to me (unless it was sudgy who sent it... but I kinda doubt that as he seems to think I am scummy). I can't think of a reason to not talk specifically about this

I sent you bandages because I'm pretty sure you're town, that was the only action I took last night. There's more going on but I'm semi-vla until tomorrow and will be able to talk more then.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #825 on: June 08, 2014, 07:58:09 pm »

Also I was sent an item. I can't imagine scum sending me an item unless for WIFOM purposes but there are more important things to do with their items and apparently they used some to make a roleblock (according to sudgy). If someone is willing to fess up to sending me this item and say what it was I think that person would become pretty close confirmed town to me (unless it was sudgy who sent it... but I kinda doubt that as he seems to think I am scummy). I can't think of a reason to not talk specifically about this

When was that?


When you voted for me...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #826 on: June 08, 2014, 08:07:32 pm »

Also I was sent an item. I can't imagine scum sending me an item unless for WIFOM purposes but there are more important things to do with their items and apparently they used some to make a roleblock (according to sudgy). If someone is willing to fess up to sending me this item and say what it was I think that person would become pretty close confirmed town to me (unless it was sudgy who sent it... but I kinda doubt that as he seems to think I am scummy). I can't think of a reason to not talk specifically about this

When was that?


When you voted for me...

anti-town isn't scummy.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #827 on: June 08, 2014, 08:11:13 pm »

I targeted Jimmmmm with a spy. I got results and they are not inconsequential because his power should resolve ahead of the potato. I spied him because I suspected him. I potatoed him because I suspected him. When he flipped Town it lent clarity to my spy result.

Volt didn't ask for specifics, just who we targeted.  Anyway, I think it's okay to say who we targeted without saying what we did.  Everyone, please do so.

With us being able to talk about the potato, we'll go back to Potato: someone syntax.  I will say who we are potatoing 48 hours before deadline.  That's the potato deadline.  Time after that will be just for a lynch.

I only sent sudgy an item. Didn't do anything else.

Also I would postulate that if we are allowed to talk about potato then we should revert back to the idea of no-lynching and just potatoing unless there is a clear cut case of someone being scum (like actual evidence, not inflated reads). I am not going to press the issue, just encourage that people go back and actually fully reread my initial arguments and set aside any preconceived notions in regard to it as I do honestly think it is our best bet and before making any rushed decisions.

If we do end up lynching I am not certain that having a person be set as said person 48 hours before deadline is the way to go. Things will change within that 48 hour span (hopefully as it should be the time of most activity) really what it requires is sudgy being able to be flexible and around to make changes to who should be potatoed as time goes on. I understand he can't always be on, but should be able to update us on the condition any time he gets on. I fear that setting someone up as a potato target 48 hours in advance (if they are town will result in a lack of enthusiasm in regard to the game) and may give scum too much of a warning ahead of time to influence the outcome of the day as that is still 2 full days to manipulate.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #828 on: June 08, 2014, 08:11:48 pm »

anti-town isn't scummy.

Ok... what's your point?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #829 on: June 08, 2014, 08:12:39 pm »

Also ADK is pretty much town to me. Does anyone think scum would send me an item to try and manipulate my read on them? Seems like a stretch to me!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #830 on: June 08, 2014, 08:20:05 pm »

anti-town isn't scummy.

Ok... what's your point?

That I never did find you scummy.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #831 on: June 08, 2014, 08:43:12 pm »

anti-town isn't scummy.

Ok... what's your point?

That I never did find you scummy.

Cool. But why are we having this conversation? Like do you want something from me? Cause I don't want anything from you out of it... You are the IC remember...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #832 on: June 08, 2014, 09:43:39 pm »

I targeted no one last night.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #833 on: June 08, 2014, 09:48:40 pm »

Vote Count 3.1

Voltaire (1): ashersky

not voting (eight): A Drowned Kernel, faust, pingpongsam, sudgy, Voltaire, Witherweaver, xeiron, yuma

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline is Sunday, June 15th at 1 pm
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #834 on: June 08, 2014, 10:04:40 pm »

I targeted Sudgy and Xeiron.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #835 on: June 08, 2014, 11:02:20 pm »

curious... why are we all claiming before Voltaire. I mean I kinda have a townier read on him, but why should he get the benefit of the doubt of hearing everyone else's claim before his. I guess the answer is cause sudgy said so, but sudgy why did you say so? I am a little nervous about this despite my townier read on him
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #836 on: June 08, 2014, 11:44:58 pm »

curious... why are we all claiming before Voltaire. I mean I kinda have a townier read on him, but why should he get the benefit of the doubt of hearing everyone else's claim before his. I guess the answer is cause sudgy said so, but sudgy why did you say so? I am a little nervous about this despite my townier read on him

I didn't tell people to do it before Volt.  I didn't even think about him claiming who he targeted as well.  Volt, as long as it doesn't make your result useless (which I don't think it would), could you claim as soon as possible as well?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #837 on: June 09, 2014, 11:00:55 am »

I targeted Jimmmmm with a spy. I got results and they are not inconsequential because his power should resolve ahead of the potato. I spied him because I suspected him. I potatoed him because I suspected him. When he flipped Town it lent clarity to my spy result.

Volt didn't ask for specifics, just who we targeted.  Anyway, I think it's okay to say who we targeted without saying what we did.  Everyone, please do so.

With us being able to talk about the potato, we'll go back to Potato: someone syntax.  I will say who we are potatoing 48 hours before deadline.  That's the potato deadline.  Time after that will be just for a lynch.

I sent a badge to Pingpongsam  because he claimed to start with bandages, so he should be able to make a firefighter. Apparently he used the badge to make a spy instead.
There are many possible explanations for that, but I would anyway like to hear the reason from pps.

I did not target anyone with a power.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #838 on: June 09, 2014, 01:47:27 pm »

I targeted Jimmmmm with a spy. I got results and they are not inconsequential because his power should resolve ahead of the potato. I spied him because I suspected him. I potatoed him because I suspected him. When he flipped Town it lent clarity to my spy result.

Volt didn't ask for specifics, just who we targeted.  Anyway, I think it's okay to say who we targeted without saying what we did.  Everyone, please do so.

With us being able to talk about the potato, we'll go back to Potato: someone syntax.  I will say who we are potatoing 48 hours before deadline.  That's the potato deadline.  Time after that will be just for a lynch.

I sent a badge to Pingpongsam  because he claimed to start with bandages, so he should be able to make a firefighter. Apparently he used the badge to make a spy instead.
There are many possible explanations for that, but I would anyway like to hear the reason from pps.

I did not target anyone with a power.

I can provide a reason but it will be informative to Mafia, so I'd like sudgy to 2nd the motion before I detail why I did what I did.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #839 on: June 09, 2014, 03:53:07 pm »

curious... why are we all claiming before Voltaire. I mean I kinda have a townier read on him, but why should he get the benefit of the doubt of hearing everyone else's claim before his. I guess the answer is cause sudgy said so, but sudgy why did you say so? I am a little nervous about this despite my townier read on him

I didn't tell people to do it before Volt.  I didn't even think about him claiming who he targeted as well.  Volt, as long as it doesn't make your result useless (which I don't think it would), could you claim as soon as possible as well?

It would have made my result useless, but we can stop now. The two people I needed to claim have claimed.

I targeted PPS and yuma. Both of them appear to have done what they claimed to have done. I initially thought I had caught PPS re-handed, since I shouldn't have been able to see him target Jimmmmm when he gave him the bomb, yet I did. I also targeted yuma and didn't see him do anything. Scum do have some ninja-esque abilities, but I find it unlikely either of them were used, especially if scum spent time blocking sudgy.

What I get from this is that PPS and yuma are both almost certainly town. For PPS to be scum, his partner would have to have sent the bomb initially. I also didn't see him do anything that would equate to priming [edge case: he primed, then killed, Jimmmmm] (ditto for yuma).

That's what I get. Anyone see any reason why it wouldn't be safe to treat PPS and yuma as town for today?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #840 on: June 09, 2014, 04:31:35 pm »

Couldn't PPS have targeted Jimmmmm for something to cover giving him the bomb?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - N2!
« Reply #841 on: June 09, 2014, 04:32:25 pm »

Hopefully helpful reminders and clarifications:

You can use powers the same night you make them.
Track/Watch/Follow/Voyeur do not see item sending, or potato sending after the first.  They do see both priming and ignition.


Or you saw him give the potato the first time.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #842 on: June 09, 2014, 04:35:51 pm »

Couldn't PPS have targeted Jimmmmm for something to cover giving him the bomb?

Better yet, why is sending someone the bomb any guarantee they will die. So, as scum I would have done something else to Jimmmmm in case he didn't hold the bomb or it otherwise didn't come back to him.

That said, being town, I find it hard to fault the guy who wants me to be treated as town today. I don't know exactly why I shouldn't be suspicious of that, I guess because Mafia typically would never want a Townie treated as Town. I am certainly biased.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - N2!
« Reply #843 on: June 09, 2014, 04:37:33 pm »

Hopefully helpful reminders and clarifications:

You can use powers the same night you make them.
Track/Watch/Follow/Voyeur do not see item sending, or potato sending after the first.  They do see both priming and ignition.


Or you saw him give the potato the first time.

Then he couldn't have given the potato to Jimmmmm after sudgy like he claimed, and we have a problem in the potato chain from last night.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - N2!
« Reply #844 on: June 09, 2014, 05:26:15 pm »

Hopefully helpful reminders and clarifications:

You can use powers the same night you make them.
Track/Watch/Follow/Voyeur do not see item sending, or potato sending after the first.  They do see both priming and ignition.


Or you saw him give the potato the first time.

Then he couldn't have given the potato to Jimmmmm after sudgy like he claimed, and we have a problem in the potato chain from last night.

I guess there's no real reason for it.

It couldn't go partner to sudgy to PPS to jimmmmm?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #845 on: June 09, 2014, 05:27:25 pm »

Nothing from the other half of your claim, Voltaire?

I'm happy with my vote.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - N2!
« Reply #846 on: June 09, 2014, 05:27:56 pm »

It couldn't go partner to sudgy to PPS to jimmmmm?

It absolutely could.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #847 on: June 09, 2014, 05:29:14 pm »

Nothing from the other half of your claim, Voltaire?

I'm happy with my vote.

The other half was yuma.

The back-and-forth was me thinking I'd caught PPS, then thinking it meant nothing, then that it meant he was town, then nothing (or something like that). The other part is that by seeing yuma do nothing I think he almost certainly has to be town. I should have seen him give the potato or prime someone. I didn't. So either yuma had stealth last night or he's town. I think it's way likelier he's town.

You, however, certainly have me wondering.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #848 on: June 09, 2014, 05:41:45 pm »

No, I meant the watching half.  It's a track/watch combo, right?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #849 on: June 09, 2014, 05:43:58 pm »

Follower, I mean.

Sounds like you claimed to track both (saw who they targeted, etc.).  So, you messed up your fake claim, or are claiming to have used two telescopes, which is impossible, right?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #850 on: June 09, 2014, 05:45:31 pm »

Nope, you CAN use more than one item.  But that requires 4 things, so you'd have had to receive at least two items last night that matched what you needed.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #851 on: June 09, 2014, 05:45:55 pm »

Still, you claimed to track two players.  Please explain.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #852 on: June 09, 2014, 06:07:36 pm »

Follower, I mean.

Sounds like you claimed to track both (saw who they targeted, etc.).  So, you messed up your fake claim, or are claiming to have used two telescopes, which is impossible, right?

No, I was being vague about what I used, which I figured would be better for scum to be uncertain what items I have/have spent. I'll happily be specific if necessary.

I am not claiming to have tracked two players.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #853 on: June 09, 2014, 06:28:00 pm »

curious... why are we all claiming before Voltaire. I mean I kinda have a townier read on him, but why should he get the benefit of the doubt of hearing everyone else's claim before his. I guess the answer is cause sudgy said so, but sudgy why did you say so? I am a little nervous about this despite my townier read on him

I didn't tell people to do it before Volt.  I didn't even think about him claiming who he targeted as well.  Volt, as long as it doesn't make your result useless (which I don't think it would), could you claim as soon as possible as well?

It would have made my result useless, but we can stop now. The two people I needed to claim have claimed.

I targeted PPS and yuma. Both of them appear to have done what they claimed to have done. I initially thought I had caught PPS re-handed, since I shouldn't have been able to see him target Jimmmmm when he gave him the bomb, yet I did. I also targeted yuma and didn't see him do anything. Scum do have some ninja-esque abilities, but I find it unlikely either of them were used, especially if scum spent time blocking sudgy.

What I get from this is that PPS and yuma are both almost certainly town. For PPS to be scum, his partner would have to have sent the bomb initially. I also didn't see him do anything that would equate to priming [edge case: he primed, then killed, Jimmmmm] (ditto for yuma).

That's what I get. Anyone see any reason why it wouldn't be safe to treat PPS and yuma as town for today?

So, you "targeted PPS and yuma" and "both of them appear to have done what they claimed to have done."  You say you saw PPS target Jimmmmm, but not what he did.  That's Tracker.  Ergo, you had to Follow yuma, and didn't see him do anything, so you Followed him.

Not vague at all, after all.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #854 on: June 09, 2014, 06:28:31 pm »

Trying to be vague sounds like trying to lie, which is going to read scummy every single time, man.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #855 on: June 09, 2014, 06:30:27 pm »

Trying to be vague sounds like trying to lie, which is going to read scummy every single time, man.

Keep trying to find me scummy. It's clear you're trying to find reasons.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #856 on: June 09, 2014, 06:53:12 pm »

Trying to be vague sounds like trying to lie, which is going to read scummy every single time, man.

Keep trying to find me scummy. It's clear you're trying to find reasons.

I don't need reasons.  You are scummy.  You have been scummy all game.  And now you trump up basically a no result night action to try to seem towny.

You've literally told town nothing new.  You could just as well be scum confirming two thing said in thread by people, considering they talked first.  You did absolutely nothing verifiable at all.  It's all empty talk designed to make you look towny, and that's what scum does.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #857 on: June 09, 2014, 06:53:49 pm »

Oh, hey guys, I got a result last night!

I used an item and it told me that Voltaire spells his name with a capital V!

Woooooo!  I'm so towny!!!!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #858 on: June 09, 2014, 07:22:45 pm »

That's what I get. Anyone see any reason why it wouldn't be safe to treat PPS and yuma as town for today?

And ADK! If you are assuming I am town, I would assume he is town for giving me an item. Would you agree?

This is good we have eliminated three suspects already
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #859 on: June 09, 2014, 07:23:31 pm »

Ash can you summarize why you think Voltaire is scummy for everyone who didn't follow very closely the argument you two had yesterday?

Also what happened to your read on faust that you were so sure of? Does it still exist?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #860 on: June 09, 2014, 07:26:47 pm »

Ash can you summarize why you think Voltaire is scummy for everyone who didn't follow very closely the argument you two had yesterday?

Also what happened to your read on faust that you were so sure of? Does it still exist?

I think Faust is also scum, yes.

I'll go dig up the Voltaire "case" for you.  But the basics are ash's gut + terrible claim today.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #861 on: June 09, 2014, 07:28:51 pm »

Trying to be vague sounds like trying to lie, which is going to read scummy every single time, man.

Keep trying to find me scummy. It's clear you're trying to find reasons.

I don't need reasons.  You are scummy.  You have been scummy all game.  And now you trump up basically a no result night action to try to seem towny.

You've literally told town nothing new.  You could just as well be scum confirming two thing said in thread by people, considering they talked first.  You did absolutely nothing verifiable at all.  It's all empty talk designed to make you look towny, and that's what scum does.

I kinda agree with ash... (that nothing new was given) expect he is going at it with the assumption that Voltaire is scum rather than looking at it from a neutral viewpoint. I think if you look at it neutrally it seems pretty logical that voltaire would do exactly what he did... investigating two players that have been pretty "up-in-the-air" in me and PPS and has given results. Just because he got nothing useful doesn't make him scum.... I would have prefered voltaire to claim all of this first and we should take note of it in the future to hold back discussion of what he did before people claim stuff.

But really I am not going to be lynching voltaire today, I don't think what he has done is scummy unless you look at it with a scummy bias, to me it is neutral and I didn't want to lynch him before this point and still don't. What is the scum narrative for doing what he did? Town credit gaining? Why would anyone give him towncredit for doing what he did?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #862 on: June 09, 2014, 07:29:46 pm »

Ash can you summarize why you think Voltaire is scummy for everyone who didn't follow very closely the argument you two had yesterday?

Also what happened to your read on faust that you were so sure of? Does it still exist?

I think Faust is also scum, yes.

I'll go dig up the Voltaire "case" for you.  But the basics are ash's gut + terrible claim today.

Cool game solved... except that other times you have "solved" the game... how did that go for you?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #863 on: June 09, 2014, 07:32:12 pm »

I think the recent results from Voltaire makes him seem towny. I cannot see what is so scummy about it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #864 on: June 09, 2014, 07:38:55 pm »

Why would he not investigate me?  Go read his reads on me on previous days.  Dude thinks I'm super scummy, but then keeps harping about insane ash being town ash.

And then he investigates PPS and yuma?  PPS I can sort of get, but yuma?  No way.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #865 on: June 09, 2014, 08:00:58 pm »

Why would he not investigate me?  Go read his reads on me on previous days.  Dude thinks I'm super scummy, but then keeps harping about insane ash being town ash.

And then he investigates PPS and yuma?  PPS I can sort of get, but yuma?  No way.

Ok... but wouldn't scum!voltaire do that as well? Don't you see what I am saying.... scum!Voltaire is going to make up a result closest to what he would do as town... so if he would have investigated you as town he would have said he would have... but he didn't so I imagine something changed. I don't know what, but you can ask him....

And I am always a good investigation target, you have stated so multiple times!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #866 on: June 09, 2014, 08:40:41 pm »

Why would he not investigate me?  Go read his reads on me on previous days.  Dude thinks I'm super scummy, but then keeps harping about insane ash being town ash.

And then he investigates PPS and yuma?  PPS I can sort of get, but yuma?  No way.

Ok... but wouldn't scum!voltaire do that as well? Don't you see what I am saying.... scum!Voltaire is going to make up a result closest to what he would do as town... so if he would have investigated you as town he would have said he would have... but he didn't so I imagine something changed. I don't know what, but you can ask him....

And I am always a good investigation target, you have stated so multiple times!

Eh, I think you're better to kill off early.  There are no PRs here, so you are safer for a bit longer, I think.

I can see the "Voltaire's claim isn't a sensible one to make as scum" argument, I suppose.  But if we're always going to accept the "scum would make up a result as close to town as possible" as a valid thing, then we have to treat all claims that way.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #867 on: June 09, 2014, 10:05:39 pm »

Why would he not investigate me?  Go read his reads on me on previous days.  Dude thinks I'm super scummy, but then keeps harping about insane ash being town ash.

And then he investigates PPS and yuma?  PPS I can sort of get, but yuma?  No way.

Ok... but wouldn't scum!voltaire do that as well? Don't you see what I am saying.... scum!Voltaire is going to make up a result closest to what he would do as town... so if he would have investigated you as town he would have said he would have... but he didn't so I imagine something changed. I don't know what, but you can ask him....

And I am always a good investigation target, you have stated so multiple times!

Eh, I think you're better to kill off early.  There are no PRs here, so you are safer for a bit longer, I think.

That makes no sense... You are comparing one thing that scum does to something that town does... it is true that I am occassionally killed off early, but someone with an investigative PR doesn't have a choice between investigating me and killing me... they have a choice between doing nothing or investigating

as for my having a point... that is how I treat all claims unless the chance is just completely and totally bizarre. I don't consider investigating me as bizarre (it is a logical choice, I think)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #868 on: June 09, 2014, 10:08:40 pm »

Anyway, from what I can tell here is where we stand:

1. PPS - not lynching today (I think... I followed voltaire's logic more about me than I did about PPS being cleared)
2. Voltaire - I probably won't lynch today
4. yuma - not lynching today
5. faust
6. chairs sudgy  Innocent Child - not lynching ever
8. Witherweaver
9. A Drowned Kernel - not lynching today
10. xeiron 
12. ashersky - I probably won't lynch today

leaving faust, WW and xeiron as the people I am most likely to vote for, ash and voltaire could be lynches I suppose, but I am feeling towniest on ash (despite disagreeing with his reads) and somewhat townie on Voltaire
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #869 on: June 09, 2014, 10:17:56 pm »

Man... xerxes had nothing of substance day1... probably would have noticed if he hadn't stumbled a bit yesterday but that should have been pretty apparent...

As for day2... faust pressed Xerxes the most. Does this mean faust is scum who saw realized that once people put 2 and 2 together he would go down flaming and decided to push it or faust is townier for hitting so hard on him. One thing to look at here is whether or not it seemed like faust had too much information about what went down and was too certain about Xerxes... I haven't looked closely enough at it.

also note that faust voted for xerxes day1 as well... (which I should note I called out for being a lame reason to vote... potentially a safe bussing vote?)

Once it was quite apparent that xerxes was going down he called a scumteam of... "If not, I'm calling a scum team that includes at the very least two of Faust/ww/volt." Partner(s) likely included here?

Couldn't find much more that was super relevant. WW definetely had a role, as did xeiron in taking Xerxes down (both noticed and pointed out things that I was screaming into my computer for you guys to notice that I couldn't post being at work, but is this a case of town doing a good job or scum picking up on a flailing partner?)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #870 on: June 09, 2014, 10:57:05 pm »

Vote Count 3.1

No change, just posting for easy reference.

Voltaire (1): ashersky

not voting (eight): A Drowned Kernel, faust, pingpongsam, sudgy, Voltaire, Witherweaver, xeiron, yuma

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline is Sunday, June 15th at 1 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #871 on: June 10, 2014, 12:09:40 am »

That's what I get. Anyone see any reason why it wouldn't be safe to treat PPS and yuma as town for today?

And ADK! If you are assuming I am town, I would assume he is town for giving me an item. Would you agree?

This is good we have eliminated three suspects already

Yes. I'd also say faust is town due to interactions with XP (another thing we should be looking at).

Some of these people aren't confirmed town by any means, but very likely town and would be horrible lynches today (PPS, yuma, faust, ADK...) So that actually just leaves (when you take out sudgy):

WW and xeiron

I have a big town read on xeiron.

So there's definitely a mistake somewhere.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #872 on: June 10, 2014, 12:11:15 am »

But really I am not going to be lynching voltaire today, I don't think what he has done is scummy unless you look at it with a scummy bias, to me it is neutral and I didn't want to lynch him before this point and still don't. What is the scum narrative for doing what he did? Town credit gaining? Why would anyone give him towncredit for doing what he did?

Yuma, I think my result makes it far more likely you are town than scum. Why is this not "something new", from a neutral POV?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #873 on: June 10, 2014, 12:12:42 am »

But really I am not going to be lynching voltaire today, I don't think what he has done is scummy unless you look at it with a scummy bias, to me it is neutral and I didn't want to lynch him before this point and still don't. What is the scum narrative for doing what he did? Town credit gaining? Why would anyone give him towncredit for doing what he did?

Yuma, I think my result makes it far more likely you are town than scum. Why is this not "something new", from a neutral POV?

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you are asking.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #874 on: June 10, 2014, 12:12:48 am »

Why would he not investigate me?  Go read his reads on me on previous days.  Dude thinks I'm super scummy, but then keeps harping about insane ash being town ash.

And then he investigates PPS and yuma?  PPS I can sort of get, but yuma?  No way.

So for those who want to know, here was my thinking:

PPS - scum read
yuma - only one who didn't send anything to sudgy, seemed good to know if he's town because based on his night actions he'd be in a great position if he's scum

And ash, I fully intended to give you the potato if I had received it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #875 on: June 10, 2014, 12:13:49 am »

But really I am not going to be lynching voltaire today, I don't think what he has done is scummy unless you look at it with a scummy bias, to me it is neutral and I didn't want to lynch him before this point and still don't. What is the scum narrative for doing what he did? Town credit gaining? Why would anyone give him towncredit for doing what he did?

Yuma, I think my result makes it far more likely you are town than scum. Why is this not "something new", from a neutral POV?

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you are asking.

You agreed with ash that my results don't tell us anything. I think my result shows you are something like 90/10 town/scum, maybe more. Why is this not "something"?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #876 on: June 10, 2014, 12:14:17 am »

Yes. I'd also say faust is town due to interactions with XP (another thing we should be looking at).

Some of these people aren't confirmed town by any means, but very likely town and would be horrible lynches today (PPS, yuma, faust, ADK...) So that actually just leaves (when you take out sudgy):

WW and xeiron

I have a big town read on xeiron.

So there's definitely a mistake somewhere.

I am not sold on faust being town... I want to look more specifically if his interactions were town scumhunting or if they were scum bussing... I think over confidence and being too aware of exactly what the scenario was could indicate him being scum, but I don't know if that is the case yet as I haven't looked at it in detail.

And I should mention you left out ash in your post above...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #877 on: June 10, 2014, 12:16:19 am »

But really I am not going to be lynching voltaire today, I don't think what he has done is scummy unless you look at it with a scummy bias, to me it is neutral and I didn't want to lynch him before this point and still don't. What is the scum narrative for doing what he did? Town credit gaining? Why would anyone give him towncredit for doing what he did?

Yuma, I think my result makes it far more likely you are town than scum. Why is this not "something new", from a neutral POV?

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you are asking.

You agreed with ash that my results don't tell us anything. I think my result shows you are something like 90/10 town/scum, maybe more. Why is this not "something"?

Oh, I mean in terms of telling us about the night actions people took. I had already stated that I had only sent an item to sudgy so it didn't add anything new in terms of that. I think it is great that you are able to verify that if you are in fact town, but verification doesn't provide new information just shows that what I said was true.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #878 on: June 10, 2014, 12:17:51 am »

I am not sold on faust being town... I want to look more specifically if his interactions were town scumhunting or if they were scum bussing... I think over confidence and being too aware of exactly what the scenario was could indicate him being scum, but I don't know if that is the case yet as I haven't looked at it in detail.

And I should mention you left out ash in your post above...

I hadn't caught up to your posts on faust - yes, they give me pause, I should re-read again (I re-read for my night actions).

You're right, I did leave out ash! Maybe I didn't make a mistake at all! Voltaire's D2 scumteam (these have always been wrong) would then be XP/WW/ash.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #879 on: June 10, 2014, 12:22:47 am »

But really I am not going to be lynching voltaire today, I don't think what he has done is scummy unless you look at it with a scummy bias, to me it is neutral and I didn't want to lynch him before this point and still don't. What is the scum narrative for doing what he did? Town credit gaining? Why would anyone give him towncredit for doing what he did?

Yuma, I think my result makes it far more likely you are town than scum. Why is this not "something new", from a neutral POV?

Sorry, I don't quite understand what you are asking.

You agreed with ash that my results don't tell us anything. I think my result shows you are something like 90/10 town/scum, maybe more. Why is this not "something"?

Oh, I mean in terms of telling us about the night actions people took. I had already stated that I had only sent an item to sudgy so it didn't add anything new in terms of that. I think it is great that you are able to verify that if you are in fact town, but verification doesn't provide new information just shows that what I said was true.

But the only way you could be scum (in my thinking) would require you to have Stealth - because if you were the first person to hand out the potato, I should have seen it. If you primed someone, I should have seen it. So you could be the other scum player who didn't start the potato, but it's a half-clearing result at the very least.

However, we do have indications from sudgy that scum spent items roleblocking him, make it a tiny bit less likely you'd have Stealth.

So yeah, these results aren't as great as I initially thought (and it's clear that others probably have some results too). That said, they're not "nothing" from a non-yuma POV.

As for PPS, I'm curious why he chose to Spy. Getting that result that he targeted Jimmmmm and Jimmmmm turning up dead seemed so strong at first, but this RMM game bleh.  :-X
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #880 on: June 10, 2014, 12:26:10 am »

Ok... I get what you are saying... sorry we had a miscommunication.

I was looking at it from the point of view of what ash was suggesting... that if you were scum!voltaire you didn't add anything new to the conversation that I could personally verify, because I had already stated what I had done.

Whereas you are, obviously, approaching it from a town!voltaire point of view wherein you are saying that you are adding a lack of stuff that I did, which is true because I certainly would never be claiming that I had done something mafiaish as mafia.

So yeah, you added that, but it is non-verifiable is the point that ash was making that I was responding to, which was my initial concern when I questioned why everyone was posting their actions before you gave your result...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #881 on: June 10, 2014, 12:29:27 am »

The reason I wanted people to claim who they targeted was to make sure that PPS didn't have time to realize that he needed to fess up to targeting Jimmmmm and come up with a plausible fake-claim. I didn't think too many people would target other people, so the information revealed wouldn't be too much to overcome the positives. Some people of course claimed more than necessary. Should put together a list of all of it so we don't forget.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #882 on: June 10, 2014, 12:30:23 am »

And I am starting to think that PPS shouldn't be cleared.... What does it take to make a spy?

Oh... just one badge. What did PPS start with? He started with bandages... So that means he had to have either been given a badge by another player or given it Night1.. this could be a reason to claim what we received day2 as we know the breakdown demographics...

N1 the pigeons brought in 3 paper, 3 magnifying glasses, 3 badges, and 2 bandages

Maybe just have the other players who received badges Night1 claim? If there are more than 3 then PPS is in hot water?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #883 on: June 10, 2014, 12:31:12 am »

N1 the pigeons brought in 3 paper, 3 magnifying glasses, 3 badges, and 2 bandages

Maybe just have the other players who received badges Night1 claim? If there are more than 3 then PPS is in hot water?

Might actually be a good idea.

I'm learning my results more clear you than PPS, and significantly so.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #884 on: June 10, 2014, 12:31:52 am »

The reason I wanted people to claim who they targeted was to make sure that PPS didn't have time to realize that he needed to fess up to targeting Jimmmmm and come up with a plausible fake-claim. I didn't think too many people would target other people, so the information revealed wouldn't be too much to overcome the positives. Some people of course claimed more than necessary. Should put together a list of all of it so we don't forget.

I get that, but I think if you are town you played your hand... you said you had information that could be incriminating at one point... any scum who did something to target Jimmmm is going to be aware that it might be seen and have to come up with a plausible answer for it ahead of time and be ready (even if you hadn't said anything any good scum will have a ready answer)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #885 on: June 10, 2014, 12:33:41 am »

But would they know that I had targeted Jimmmmm? No. I could have watched the person who handed out the potato or primed, and seen "Killing".
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #886 on: June 10, 2014, 12:33:53 am »

seen them target Jimmmmm, I mean
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #887 on: June 10, 2014, 12:34:32 am »

yeah, sudgy I think we should do this.

have players say whether or not they received a badge item Night1 from the mod--or have anyone step forward to say that they sent a badge to PPS--which is impossible because everyone except for me said they sent items to sudgy that night and I didn't send anything to PPS... so PPS had to have received the badge, but if more than 3 players received it then someone is lying... most likely PPS?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #888 on: June 10, 2014, 12:35:36 am »

But would they know that I had targeted Jimmmmm? No. I could have watched the person who handed out the potato or primed, and seen "Killing".

that is true... but in that case they are doomed right? Nothing they can do about that... so prepare for the one that you can control. I am not saying I am right, just that I am unconvinced by PPS's answer thus far and want to pursue it further to back it up.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #889 on: June 10, 2014, 12:37:57 am »

I'm getting a towny vibe from the yuma v. voltaire thing going on.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #890 on: June 10, 2014, 12:41:17 am »

I'm getting a towny vibe from the yuma v. voltaire thing going on.

 :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Did my smilies help?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #891 on: June 10, 2014, 01:45:28 am »

I'm getting a towny vibe from the yuma v. voltaire thing going on.

I realized this isn't clear.

Towny vibe on YUMA from the yuma v. voltaire thing going on.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #892 on: June 10, 2014, 05:50:10 am »

yeah, sudgy I think we should do this.

have players say whether or not they received a badge item Night1 from the mod--or have anyone step forward to say that they sent a badge to PPS--which is impossible because everyone except for me said they sent items to sudgy that night and I didn't send anything to PPS... so PPS had to have received the badge, but if more than 3 players received it then someone is lying... most likely PPS?

The badge comes from me. Se my claim below.
I targeted Jimmmmm with a spy. I got results and they are not inconsequential because his power should resolve ahead of the potato. I spied him because I suspected him. I potatoed him because I suspected him. When he flipped Town it lent clarity to my spy result.

Volt didn't ask for specifics, just who we targeted.  Anyway, I think it's okay to say who we targeted without saying what we did.  Everyone, please do so.

With us being able to talk about the potato, we'll go back to Potato: someone syntax.  I will say who we are potatoing 48 hours before deadline.  That's the potato deadline.  Time after that will be just for a lynch.

I sent a badge to Pingpongsam  because he claimed to start with bandages, so he should be able to make a firefighter. Apparently he used the badge to make a spy instead.
There are many possible explanations for that, but I would anyway like to hear the reason from pps.

I did not target anyone with a power.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #893 on: June 10, 2014, 05:52:56 am »

Starting Items.

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK, (Xerxes)
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron, ?
Bandage: PPS, (yuma), ?
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust, ?

? = (Archetype, Sudgy, Xerxes)

N1, 8 among Ash, WW, ADK, jimmm, Xeiron, pps, Voltaire, Faust and archetype sent 1 letter, 3 papers, 2 badges, 1 bandage and 2 magnifying glasses to Sudgy. One is lying, and it is probably not one who sendt a paper.

Among Xeiron, pps, Voltaire and Faust, I know I am town. I think pps and voltaire is town as well.
That leaves me with Faust as one scum.

Vote: faust

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #894 on: June 10, 2014, 06:24:55 am »

POE demands I Vote: Faust

Feeling good about Volt and xeiron. Neutral to town on Yuma. Neutral to scum on ash. Scum in WW. Where is mr. Helpful all of a sudden?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #895 on: June 10, 2014, 07:24:09 am »

Forgot about ADK. Looks like he is VLA and promises some info on return. Until then neutral lean scum on ADK.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #896 on: June 10, 2014, 07:56:37 am »

Sorry for lurking; I have little time and another game in a crucial phase right now. I'll try and look at this soonish.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #897 on: June 10, 2014, 09:12:41 am »

Glad to see people coming around on my faust read.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #898 on: June 10, 2014, 09:12:53 am »

Also slight DAMA.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #899 on: June 10, 2014, 09:14:45 am »

Also slight DAMA.

And the question you should be asking is: "what are you drinking?"
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #900 on: June 10, 2014, 09:14:56 am »

Also slight DAMA.

And the question you should be asking is: "what are you drinking?"

And the answer would be: "Jameson, 12 year old."
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #901 on: June 10, 2014, 09:20:06 am »

Also slight DAMA.

Who have you primed so far? Obviously not faust.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #902 on: June 10, 2014, 09:20:50 am »

Who have you primed so far?

This sounds dirty out of context.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #903 on: June 10, 2014, 09:21:13 am »

If I had primed someone, it would be the optimus person in the game.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #904 on: June 10, 2014, 09:50:02 am »

Also slight DAMA.

What one thing are you certain you would rather die a horrible death than to do on this earth?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 2!
« Reply #905 on: June 10, 2014, 09:53:53 am »

Starting Items.

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK, (Xerxes)
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron, ?
Bandage: PPS, (yuma), ?
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust, ?

? = (Archetype, Sudgy, Xerxes)

N1, 8 among Ash, WW, ADK, jimmm, Xeiron, pps, Voltaire, Faust and archetype sent 1 letter, 3 papers, 2 badges, 1 bandage and 2 magnifying glasses to Sudgy. One is lying, and it is probably not one who sendt a paper.

Among Xeiron, pps, Voltaire and Faust, I know I am town. I think pps and voltaire is town as well.
That leaves me with Faust as one scum.

Vote: faust

If I'm understanding you correctly, xeiron, we know that there is 1 scum remaining each in those two groups? Is that correct? No chance there's 2 scum in one of the groups?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #906 on: June 10, 2014, 09:58:27 am »

No, I'm definitely misunderstanding what you're saying. Carry on.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #907 on: June 10, 2014, 10:11:34 am »

The badge comes from me. Se my claim below.

Ugh. Ok, that is fine. I just thought we were onto something.

Well this makes me lean townier on xeiron. I just don't think scum is going to be sending items off to town. Unless xeiron and pps are parnters and this was xeiron covering for his partner pre-emptively, but let's put that on the backburner for now.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #908 on: June 10, 2014, 10:15:53 am »

One thing I think we can look into though is the creation of the roleblokcer that sudgy said was created. Sudgy can we get more information about that to make sure that a roleblocker was actually created and used on you?

So to make a roleblocker you need badge + magnifying glass. So whomever had it had to start with at least one of them.

Oh, this was used night2 so items sent at the end of night1 would have helped... but still...

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK, (Xerxes)
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron, ?
Bandage: PPS, (yuma), ?
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust, ?

? = (Archetype, Sudgy, Xerxes)

So Xeriron, Voltaire and Faust apparently started the game with one of the needed items.

 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #909 on: June 10, 2014, 10:58:08 am »

POE demands I Vote: Faust

Feeling good about Volt and xeiron. Neutral to town on Yuma. Neutral to scum on ash. Scum in WW. Where is mr. Helpful all of a sudden?

RL things were going on, sorry.  I'm trying to sort things out here.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #910 on: June 10, 2014, 11:24:23 am »

One thing I think we can look into though is the creation of the roleblokcer that sudgy said was created. Sudgy can we get more information about that to make sure that a roleblocker was actually created and used on you?

So to make a roleblocker you need badge + magnifying glass. So whomever had it had to start with at least one of them.

Oh, this was used night2 so items sent at the end of night1 would have helped... but still...

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK, (Xerxes)
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron, ?
Bandage: PPS, (yuma), ?
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust, ?

? = (Archetype, Sudgy, Xerxes)

So Xeriron, Voltaire and Faust apparently started the game with one of the needed items.

Voltaire is cleared here, right?  He sent a Magnifying Glass to Sudgy and used one for investigation. 

Okay not cleared, he could have gotten a third Magnifying Glass on N1.  But he had to use a Paper for the ability.

So if he was telling the truth about Tracking/Following, he couldn't Roleblock.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #911 on: June 10, 2014, 11:35:11 am »

So Xeriron, Voltaire and Faust apparently started the game with one of the needed items.

A lot of different things are point to faust, I guess. I should re-read XP again I guess.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #912 on: June 10, 2014, 11:51:40 am »

Sudgy, are you 100% certain you were Roleblocked?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #913 on: June 10, 2014, 12:07:05 pm »

One thing I think we can look into though is the creation of the roleblokcer that sudgy said was created. Sudgy can we get more information about that to make sure that a roleblocker was actually created and used on you?

So to make a roleblocker you need badge + magnifying glass. So whomever had it had to start with at least one of them.

Oh, this was used night2 so items sent at the end of night1 would have helped... but still...

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK, (Xerxes)
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron, ?
Bandage: PPS, (yuma), ?
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust, ?

? = (Archetype, Sudgy, Xerxes)

So Xeriron, Voltaire and Faust apparently started the game with one of the needed items.

Voltaire is cleared here, right?  He sent a Magnifying Glass to Sudgy and used one for investigation. 

Okay not cleared, he could have gotten a third Magnifying Glass on N1.  But he had to use a Paper for the ability.

So if he was telling the truth about Tracking/Following, he couldn't Roleblock.

Good point! Ok. so yeah, faust and xeiron are my biggest focus for the day... assuming sudgy confirms that he was certainly roleblocked
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #914 on: June 10, 2014, 12:07:35 pm »

If Sudgy was 100% Roleblocked, I think I have more info.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #915 on: June 10, 2014, 12:09:17 pm »

I mean we do have to just take voltaire at his word on that, not something I am 100% comfortable doing, but am ok with for now as we look more closely at faust/xeiron. I would suggest those two as the lynch/bomb for today/tonight. Unless the one we lynch ends up being scum then I don't know what that would say about the other...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #916 on: June 10, 2014, 01:22:36 pm »

And I already stated that I feel xeiron is townier due to giving PPS an item...

so really I am looking at faust

vote: faust
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #917 on: June 10, 2014, 01:23:34 pm »

I think that is L-2 as we havne't had a vote count in a few pages...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #918 on: June 10, 2014, 01:33:29 pm »

First, I am sadly V/LA from Friday through Sunday.

Second, I had an item that is a constant power not return any result, and another item I said to use wasn't even used.  That's all I know.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #919 on: June 10, 2014, 01:33:42 pm »

Also, I would vote faust if he wasn't so close to being lynched.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #920 on: June 10, 2014, 03:47:10 pm »

Second, I had an item that is a constant power not return any result, and another item I said to use wasn't even used.  That's all I know.

xeiron knows theory well enough he should be able to help out with this, but what I'm getting from looking at possible roles is that scum must have either used Dazzling Light (2-shot roleblocker, 1 badge + magnifying glass) or Cryptographer (1-shot Rolestopper, 1 magnifying glass + 1 paper) on sudgy, right?

As for what sudgy would have that would be constant, I only see Reconnaissance and Be a Police Officer as the options.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #921 on: June 10, 2014, 04:08:18 pm »

Vote Count 3.2

Voltaire (1): ashersky
faust (3): xeiron, pingpongsam, yuma {L-2}

not voting (5): A Drowned Kernel, faust, sudgy, Voltaire, Witherweaver

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline is Sunday, June 15th at 1 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #922 on: June 10, 2014, 04:21:12 pm »

Second, I had an item that is a constant power not return any result, and another item I said to use wasn't even used.  That's all I know.

xeiron knows theory well enough he should be able to help out with this, but what I'm getting from looking at possible roles is that scum must have either used Dazzling Light (2-shot roleblocker, 1 badge + magnifying glass) or Cryptographer (1-shot Rolestopper, 1 magnifying glass + 1 paper) on sudgy, right?

As for what sudgy would have that would be constant, I only see Reconnaissance and Be a Police Officer as the options.

Rolestopper on sudgy's target, not on sudgy.  Rolestopper keeps actions from working on its target, as opposed to stopping someone from taking an action.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #923 on: June 10, 2014, 04:22:57 pm »

Rolestopper on sudgy's target, not on sudgy.  Rolestopper keeps actions from working on its target, as opposed to stopping someone from taking an action.

Right, right. That kinda ups the odds it was the roleblocker then, doesn't it.

In the next hour or so I hope to sit down with the spreadsheet it takes to look at this.

faust chiming in would be ideal (though I know he's on European time and isn't normally around right now).
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #924 on: June 10, 2014, 04:27:44 pm »

Also slight DAMA.

What one thing are you certain you would rather die a horrible death than to do on this earth?

There are lots of things, if this is a serious question.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #925 on: June 10, 2014, 04:29:40 pm »

Also slight DAMA.

What one thing are you certain you would rather die a horrible death than to do on this earth?

There are lots of things, if this is a serious question.

Well, it's a question for a drunken mind. Also, the exercise is to narrow it down to THE ONE.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #926 on: June 10, 2014, 04:33:08 pm »

Also slight DAMA.

What one thing are you certain you would rather die a horrible death than to do on this earth?

There are lots of things, if this is a serious question.

Well, it's a question for a drunken mind. Also, the exercise is to narrow it down to THE ONE.

Anything that would put my daughter in danger or cause her pain.  I'd rather die a horrible death than that more than anything else.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #927 on: June 10, 2014, 04:34:54 pm »

Is this helping you two scumhunt?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #928 on: June 10, 2014, 04:35:07 pm »

Let's please not start humanizing each other here.  It makes it much harder for me to imaging lynching you or voting to get you blown up.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #929 on: June 10, 2014, 05:26:48 pm »

So we are all agreed Faust/Voltaire are remaining scum?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #930 on: June 10, 2014, 05:27:58 pm »

So we are all agreed Faust/Voltaire are remaining scum?

Obviously not, though if we lynch faust and he flips scum we'll be in a good enough spot my mislynch wouldn't be the worst thing ever.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #931 on: June 10, 2014, 05:28:34 pm »

So we are all agreed Faust/Voltaire are remaining scum?

More seriously, most appear to agree faust is scummy but you are the only person with a scum read on me (except for PPS maybe, not sure exactly what his read is at this point).
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #932 on: June 10, 2014, 05:38:46 pm »

One thing I think we can look into though is the creation of the roleblokcer that sudgy said was created. Sudgy can we get more information about that to make sure that a roleblocker was actually created and used on you?

So to make a roleblocker you need badge + magnifying glass. So whomever had it had to start with at least one of them.

Oh, this was used night2 so items sent at the end of night1 would have helped... but still...

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK, (Xerxes)
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron, ?
Bandage: PPS, (yuma), ?
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust, ?

? = (Archetype, Sudgy, Xerxes)

So Xeriron, Voltaire and Faust apparently started the game with one of the needed items.

Voltaire is cleared here, right?  He sent a Magnifying Glass to Sudgy and used one for investigation. 

Okay not cleared, he could have gotten a third Magnifying Glass on N1.  But he had to use a Paper for the ability.

So if he was telling the truth about Tracking/Following, he couldn't Roleblock.

Voltaire is not cleared.

Remember, we are looking for someone who lied about sending a item to sudgy D1.
If Voltaire is scum he told everyone he sent a glass to Sudgy, but reallly kept it himself or sendt it to a scummate.
Further he must have lied about Tracking/Following as those are town only powers.
that leaves him free to roleblock someone.

That said, I still think he is town.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #933 on: June 10, 2014, 05:41:41 pm »

If Sudgy was 100% Roleblocked, I think I have more info.

As I pointed out we can't know with certainty sudgy was roleblocked, but the odds of rolestopping on his target seem tiny to me I think your "more info" would be helpful. Your call, of course.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #934 on: June 10, 2014, 05:50:36 pm »

But, the Tracker/Follower lie would have been pretty risky, right?  The way it played out, he didn't reveal anything before it was confirmed, so he could have made it up.  However, he couldn't really know that he wouldn't be asked to reveal before Yuma and PPS, in which case he would have had a hard time coming up with the right results to claim.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #935 on: June 10, 2014, 05:53:53 pm »

Second, I had an item that is a constant power not return any result, and another item I said to use wasn't even used.  That's all I know.

Xeiron knows theory well enough he should be able to help out with this, but what I'm getting from looking at possible roles is that scum must have either used Dazzling Light (2-shot roleblocker, 1 badge + magnifying glass) or Cryptographer (1-shot Rolestopper, 1 magnifying glass + 1 paper) on sudgy, right?

As for what sudgy would have that would be constant, I only see Reconnaissance and Be a Police Officer as the options.

With high probability, scum used Dazzling Light, and must have gotten 1 badge and a magnifying glass by N2. The question is why they did not Dazzling Light on N1? It would be great for scum to neutralize essentially every single town power used that night.  Is it because scum did not start with a badge and a magnifying glass between them? My theory is that they did not. If i am correct, Sudgy must have started with the last badge.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #936 on: June 10, 2014, 05:55:59 pm »

I'm re-reading faust and just having such a hard time seeing faust being scum. If we pretend he is town, what would that mean? I guess if the results seem more absurd than him simply being mafia, that would be an answer in and of itself.

PPE: 2
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #937 on: June 10, 2014, 06:19:54 pm »

Second, I had an item that is a constant power not return any result, and another item I said to use wasn't even used.  That's all I know.

Xeiron knows theory well enough he should be able to help out with this, but what I'm getting from looking at possible roles is that scum must have either used Dazzling Light (2-shot roleblocker, 1 badge + magnifying glass) or Cryptographer (1-shot Rolestopper, 1 magnifying glass + 1 paper) on sudgy, right?

As for what sudgy would have that would be constant, I only see Reconnaissance and Be a Police Officer as the options.

With high probability, scum used Dazzling Light, and must have gotten 1 badge and a magnifying glass by N2. The question is why they did not Dazzling Light on N1? It would be great for scum to neutralize essentially every single town power used that night.  Is it because scum did not start with a badge and a magnifying glass between them? My theory is that they did not. If i am correct, Sudgy must have started with the last badge.

But how could they even know they would be blocking every town power?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #938 on: June 10, 2014, 06:20:26 pm »

But how could they even know they would be blocking every town power?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #939 on: June 10, 2014, 06:20:37 pm »

I'm re-reading faust and just having such a hard time seeing faust being scum. If we pretend he is town, what would that mean? I guess if the results seem more absurd than him simply being mafia, that would be an answer in and of itself.

PPE: 2

It means that Pps, yourself or me is mafia instead.

Or that Archetype actually had a paper, and that every single mafia member chose to claim paper as their starting item.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #940 on: June 10, 2014, 06:21:56 pm »

I'm re-reading faust and just having such a hard time seeing faust being scum. If we pretend he is town, what would that mean? I guess if the results seem more absurd than him simply being mafia, that would be an answer in and of itself.

PPE: 2

It means that Pps, yourself or me is mafia instead.

Or that Archetype actually had a paper, and that every single mafia member chose to claim paper as their starting item.

Since I know I'm town, does this mean that from my point of view the remaining scum would have to be you and PPS? Or just that one of you/PPS would have to be scum?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #941 on: June 10, 2014, 06:23:23 pm »

But how could they even know they would be blocking every town power?

Because we sent all items to Sudgy N1,  and he would be the only one able to make cool powers. It is true that some other townies could make 1-item-powers, but scum usually do not care to block them anyway.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #942 on: June 10, 2014, 06:25:45 pm »

I'm re-reading faust and just having such a hard time seeing faust being scum. If we pretend he is town, what would that mean? I guess if the results seem more absurd than him simply being mafia, that would be an answer in and of itself.

PPE: 2

It means that Pps, yourself or me is mafia instead.

Or that Archetype actually had a paper, and that every single mafia member chose to claim paper as their starting item.

Since I know I'm town, does this mean that from my point of view the remaining scum would have to be you and PPS? Or just that one of you/PPS would have to be scum?

One of us.

We know that one scum fakeclaimed to send the item Archetype had. That scum is most likely one of faust, pps or us two. The other scum could be anyone.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #943 on: June 10, 2014, 06:26:32 pm »

But how could they even know they would be blocking every town power?

Because we sent all items to Sudgy N1,  and he would be the only one able to make cool powers. It is true that some other townies could make 1-item-powers, but scum usually do not care to block them anyway.

Actually - didn't they? Roleblocker is 2-shot. They could have used it on sudgy N1 and N2, after creating it N1. As far as we know, sudgy didn't take any actions N1, did he?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #944 on: June 10, 2014, 06:27:19 pm »

I can't be arsed to find it but earlier this calendar day I put out a reads list and Volt was near top town read. This is in reply to Volt above which I also cannot be arsed to quote.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #945 on: June 10, 2014, 06:27:23 pm »

I'm re-reading faust and just having such a hard time seeing faust being scum. If we pretend he is town, what would that mean? I guess if the results seem more absurd than him simply being mafia, that would be an answer in and of itself.

PPE: 2

It means that Pps, yourself or me is mafia instead.

Or that Archetype actually had a paper, and that every single mafia member chose to claim paper as their starting item.

Since I know I'm town, does this mean that from my point of view the remaining scum would have to be you and PPS? Or just that one of you/PPS would have to be scum?

One of us.

We know that one scum fakeclaimed to send the item Archetype had. That scum is most likely one of faust, pps or us two. The other scum could be anyone.

Gotcha, thanks.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #946 on: June 10, 2014, 06:38:00 pm »

But how could they even know they would be blocking every town power?

Because we sent all items to Sudgy N1,  and he would be the only one able to make cool powers. It is true that some other townies could make 1-item-powers, but scum usually do not care to block them anyway.

Actually - didn't they? Roleblocker is 2-shot. They could have used it on sudgy N1 and N2, after creating it N1. As far as we know, sudgy didn't take any actions N1, did he?

I thought he did, but maybe not. He has not claimed anything yet.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #947 on: June 10, 2014, 06:40:21 pm »

Second, I had an item that is a constant power not return any result, and another item I said to use wasn't even used.  That's all I know.

Xeiron knows theory well enough he should be able to help out with this, but what I'm getting from looking at possible roles is that scum must have either used Dazzling Light (2-shot roleblocker, 1 badge + magnifying glass) or Cryptographer (1-shot Rolestopper, 1 magnifying glass + 1 paper) on sudgy, right?

As for what sudgy would have that would be constant, I only see Reconnaissance and Be a Police Officer as the options.

With high probability, scum used Dazzling Light, and must have gotten 1 badge and a magnifying glass by N2. The question is why they did not Dazzling Light on N1? It would be great for scum to neutralize essentially every single town power used that night.  Is it because scum did not start with a badge and a magnifying glass between them? My theory is that they did not. If i am correct, Sudgy must have started with the last badge.

Why do they have to be missing the Badge instead of the Magnifying Glass?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #948 on: June 10, 2014, 06:52:46 pm »

Sorry, I feel like I missed the context (and the substance) of the theory of the last little bit. Can someone briefly summarize. I am understanding up to the point of sudgy was roleblocked last night, someone had to have used a badge or a magnifying glass.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #949 on: June 10, 2014, 07:21:36 pm »

But how could they even know they would be blocking every town power?

Because we sent all items to Sudgy N1,  and he would be the only one able to make cool powers. It is true that some other townies could make 1-item-powers, but scum usually do not care to block them anyway.

Actually - didn't they? Roleblocker is 2-shot. They could have used it on sudgy N1 and N2, after creating it N1. As far as we know, sudgy didn't take any actions N1, did he?

I did, and it worked.

Another thing I'm wondering is why I didn't even use my item at all last night.  Shouldn't it still have been used up?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #950 on: June 10, 2014, 07:23:25 pm »

But how could they even know they would be blocking every town power?

Because we sent all items to Sudgy N1,  and he would be the only one able to make cool powers. It is true that some other townies could make 1-item-powers, but scum usually do not care to block them anyway.

Actually - didn't they? Roleblocker is 2-shot. They could have used it on sudgy N1 and N2, after creating it N1. As far as we know, sudgy didn't take any actions N1, did he?

I did, and it worked.

Another thing I'm wondering is why I didn't even use my item at all last night.  Shouldn't it still have been used up?

sounds like a PM question for the mod because I would think so if you were roleblocked the item should likely still be spent...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #951 on: June 10, 2014, 07:28:24 pm »

Okay, so I guess I should claim.  I've been trying to figure out what all this means and I'm not really sure about it.

1) Someone sent me a Magnifying Glass last night.  It's unlikely to be Voltaire, given what he's claimed so far.  That makes it more likely to be Faust. It's also possible it's someone else that got their Magnifying Glass on Night 1. 

2) My Night 1 item was Badge, and so I did the obvious thing and Watched Sudgy (I used Voyeur on Xeiron), because I figured he may be sent the first Potato.   Both returned no result.  This is an issue as Sudgy seemed to have been targeted twice: once with Roleblocking and once with Potato.

3) Therefore, Stealth must have been used.  So we know Roleblock (Badge+Mag) and Stealth (Badge+Bandage) were used by scum last night, so 2 Badges + Mag + Bandage.

4) It's not clear to me if Stealth covers all actions performed by the player, or only one action.  If former, then the same player used Roleblocking and Potato on Sudgy, and Stealth worked on both.  If not, then one of them should have shown up (from what it says, only half of Stealth blocks Watcher/Voyeur).  Then they either Stealthed both (unlikely?) or they used Stealth on Roleblock and did not send the Potato directly to Sudgy.  Then Scum1 must have sent Potato to Scum2, who then sent it to Sudgy, because only the initial sending can be caught with Investigation.  This also increases the chance that Scum2 used a Privacy Curtain (Bandage) on himself, or Scum2 has a lot of town cred and was pretty sure no one would send him the Potato.

So that's where I'm at.  I guess the other possibility that would explain it was that Sudgy was Roleblocked AND Rolestopped, though that seems unlikely.. or that I was Roleblocked as well, but that also seems unlikely.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #952 on: June 10, 2014, 07:29:19 pm »

Because constantly referring to google docs is annoying:

Scum powers:

Paper x 4 -- Impersonate a police officer. One random action will be chosen out

of all town and mafia actions each night. One of the possible positive

investigation results pertaining to that action will be chosen randomly.

You receive the true result of that investigation. If a mafia action is

chosen then that action will be invisible to investigation. Investigations

used: T/W/F/V. Passive powers will only be reflected in F/V.



Mag x4 -- Embezzler: Intercept delivery of items to your target. You get the

items instead. Order must be placed within 1st 24 hours of night.



Bandage x4 -- Accelerant: Arsonist may prime an extra person on the night used.



Badge x4 -- Subterfuge: Each night target one player. Any Bombproofs/Privacy

Curtains/Bounce they own have no effect for the night. Fireproofs

remain effective.



Mag + paper -- Cryptographer: 1-shot Rolestopper



Mag + Bandage -- Bounce: 1-shot. Bomb sent to you is sent back to its sender instead

[passive power, takes effect at start of following night].



Badge + Bandage -- Stealth: 1 shot invisible to tracker and follower, and 1-shot invisible to

watcher and voyeur. Can be used on oneself or another player or one

on each of two players. Must use both in the same night.



Badge + Mag -- Dazzling light: 2-shot roleblocker
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #953 on: June 10, 2014, 07:30:55 pm »

Could a Bounce have been used to protect scum?  Like, if WW is right, and it went Scum1 to Scum2, then Scum2 is vulnerable without Bounce.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #954 on: June 10, 2014, 07:35:03 pm »

Could a Bounce have been used to protect scum?  Like, if WW is right, and it went Scum1 to Scum2, then Scum2 is vulnerable without Bounce.

I'm not sure about resolving.  They'd have to send first, then use bounce, then send out again.  I don't know if that's possible.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #955 on: June 11, 2014, 01:41:53 am »

Apparently I did use my item and I misinterpreted something.  I still was roleblocked because I should have gotten something from one of them no matter what and didn't get anything.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #956 on: June 11, 2014, 03:10:57 am »

Apparently I did use my item and I misinterpreted something.  I still was roleblocked because I should have gotten something from one of them no matter what and didn't get anything.

Not surprised you were roleblocked.  You received like a bajillion items.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #957 on: June 11, 2014, 10:06:18 am »

So, mostly likely scenario is scum used two Badges last night.  This is possible if they did not start with a Badge, but less likely.  (They would have to have been sent one or gotten two Badges on N1 to use last night, which is possible since three were sent out, but I got one, so they had to get the other two.)  So one scum probably started with two Badges. 

Paper: Ash, WW, ADK, (Xerxes)
Badge: Jimmm, Xeiron, ?
Bandage: PPS, (yuma), ?
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, Faust, ?

? = (Archetype, Sudgy, Xerxes)

Still working from the idea that there must be one scum the people that claimed to have sent on N1, who are {Ash, WW, ADK, Xeiron, PPS, Volt, Faust}.

So the two cases would be: scum claimed to send Badge to Sudgy N1 and did actually send Badge, or scum claimed to send <some item, I think we decided it has to be Archetype's> to Sudgy, but really had and kept the Badges.  Second case is more likely, as it doesn't rely on them getting a Badge on N1.  First case relies on them getting another Badge on N1, which isn't as unlikely as getting both Badges. 

First case implies Xeiron is scum, second case puts it at {PPS, Volt, Faust}U{Xeiron, ADK}.  I put Xeiron and ADK separate because the claim to send a Badge without sending one and actually having one is the most risky, I think.  And ADK claimed Paper, and that's not a good fake claim as it's verifiable. (Ash verified his when he sent on Night 1.)

So I guess there isn't new information here, but it provides more motivation for {PPS, Volt, Faust}. 

And, if we follow Xeiron's idea that scum could not make Roleblocker on Night 1, then it's more likely they were missing Magnifying Glass and not Badge.  So that makes {Volt, Faust} the most likely.

Vote: Faust is L-1.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #958 on: June 11, 2014, 10:30:57 am »

Second, I had an item that is a constant power not return any result, and another item I said to use wasn't even used.  That's all I know.

Xeiron knows theory well enough he should be able to help out with this, but what I'm getting from looking at possible roles is that scum must have either used Dazzling Light (2-shot roleblocker, 1 badge + magnifying glass) or Cryptographer (1-shot Rolestopper, 1 magnifying glass + 1 paper) on sudgy, right?

As for what sudgy would have that would be constant, I only see Reconnaissance and Be a Police Officer as the options.

With high probability, scum used Dazzling Light, and must have gotten 1 badge and a magnifying glass by N2. The question is why they did not Dazzling Light on N1? It would be great for scum to neutralize essentially every single town power used that night.  Is it because scum did not start with a badge and a magnifying glass between them? My theory is that they did not. If i am correct, Sudgy must have started with the last badge.

Why do they have to be missing the Badge instead of the Magnifying Glass?

There is no particular reason. They could very well be that they was missing a Magnifying Glass.
In general, we know scum started with two out of {Badge, bandage, magnifying glass}. The two that Sudgy do not have.

I just like to think it is the badge because jimmm is not scum, I am not either, and Xerxes is the prime scum candidate to have it. But if he had he would not have used it now as he is dead.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #959 on: June 11, 2014, 10:43:17 am »

Second, I had an item that is a constant power not return any result, and another item I said to use wasn't even used.  That's all I know.

Xeiron knows theory well enough he should be able to help out with this, but what I'm getting from looking at possible roles is that scum must have either used Dazzling Light (2-shot roleblocker, 1 badge + magnifying glass) or Cryptographer (1-shot Rolestopper, 1 magnifying glass + 1 paper) on sudgy, right?

As for what sudgy would have that would be constant, I only see Reconnaissance and Be a Police Officer as the options.

With high probability, scum used Dazzling Light, and must have gotten 1 badge and a magnifying glass by N2. The question is why they did not Dazzling Light on N1? It would be great for scum to neutralize essentially every single town power used that night.  Is it because scum did not start with a badge and a magnifying glass between them? My theory is that they did not. If i am correct, Sudgy must have started with the last badge.

Why do they have to be missing the Badge instead of the Magnifying Glass?

There is no particular reason. They could very well be that they was missing a Magnifying Glass.
In general, we know scum started with two out of {Badge, bandage, magnifying glass}. The two that Sudgy do not have.

I just like to think it is the badge because jimmm is not scum, I am not either, and Xerxes is the prime scum candidate to have it. But if he had he would not have used it now as he is dead.

He could have traded one with a partner on Night 1. 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #960 on: June 11, 2014, 10:50:24 am »

Vote Count 3.3

Voltaire (1): ashersky
faust (4): xeiron, pingpongsam, yuma, Witherweaver {L-1}

not voting (4): A Drowned Kernel, faust, sudgy, Voltaire

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline is Sunday, June 15th at 1 pm
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #961 on: June 11, 2014, 12:07:31 pm »

I'm not quite following this whole discussion, but it looks like it might help to know that I started with two magnifying glasses.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #962 on: June 11, 2014, 02:44:13 pm »

I'm not quite following this whole discussion, but it looks like it might help to know that I started with two magnifying glasses.

Thanks.

That means scum started with at least one bandage and one badge. And probably one paper.
It makes faust look less bad.
unvote:
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #963 on: June 11, 2014, 03:09:05 pm »

Ashersky, Have you ever said anything about why you chose to send a letter N1, not just a item?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #964 on: June 11, 2014, 03:27:13 pm »

Ashersky, Have you ever said anything about why you chose to send a letter N1, not just a item?

When you send paper, you can send a letter as well.  I think that's pretty much it, isn't it?
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #965 on: June 11, 2014, 03:33:36 pm »

Ashersky, Have you ever said anything about why you chose to send a letter N1, not just a item?

When you send paper, you can send a letter as well.  I think that's pretty much it, isn't it?

I think you use a Paper up to send a message.  Additionally, you can send an item with the message.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #966 on: June 11, 2014, 04:28:41 pm »

Ashersky, Have you ever said anything about why you chose to send a letter N1, not just a item?

When you send paper, you can send a letter as well.  I think that's pretty much it, isn't it?

Paper is useless otherwise, so I decided to use it.  Plus, in case I died, I wanted sudgy to have my thoughts to use.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #967 on: June 11, 2014, 04:48:11 pm »

Ashersky, Have you ever said anything about why you chose to send a letter N1, not just a item?

When you send paper, you can send a letter as well.  I think that's pretty much it, isn't it?

Paper is useless otherwise, so I decided to use it.  Plus, in case I died, I wanted sudgy to have my thoughts to use.

What item did you get N1?
Did you use it or send it to someone?.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #968 on: June 11, 2014, 04:49:44 pm »

Faust. Did you send a magnifying glass to Witherweawer?
Anyone else who did?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #969 on: June 11, 2014, 04:54:48 pm »

Ashersky, Have you ever said anything about why you chose to send a letter N1, not just a item?

When you send paper, you can send a letter as well.  I think that's pretty much it, isn't it?

Paper is useless otherwise, so I decided to use it.  Plus, in case I died, I wanted sudgy to have my thoughts to use.

What item did you get N1?
Did you use it or send it to someone?.

Why are you asking this?  Why should I trust you?

Only sudgy can demand things like this.

(I'd argue no one should be giving out this info unless they have a result to report that is meaningful.  So the opposite of Voltaire's report.)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #970 on: June 11, 2014, 05:01:53 pm »

Ashersky, Have you ever said anything about why you chose to send a letter N1, not just a item?

When you send paper, you can send a letter as well.  I think that's pretty much it, isn't it?

Paper is useless otherwise, so I decided to use it.  Plus, in case I died, I wanted sudgy to have my thoughts to use.

What item did you get N1?
Did you use it or send it to someone?.

Why are you asking this?  Why should I trust you?

Only sudgy can demand things like this.

(I'd argue no one should be giving out this info unless they have a result to report that is meaningful.  So the opposite of Voltaire's report.)

Because I think I am close to solving this game.
At this point i believe we should massclaim. Or at least almost massclaim.
More info will catch scum.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #971 on: June 11, 2014, 05:02:51 pm »

pingpongsam.
What item did you recieve N1?
What was your result on jimm?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #972 on: June 11, 2014, 05:40:10 pm »

Ashersky, Have you ever said anything about why you chose to send a letter N1, not just a item?

When you send paper, you can send a letter as well.  I think that's pretty much it, isn't it?

Paper is useless otherwise, so I decided to use it.  Plus, in case I died, I wanted sudgy to have my thoughts to use.

What item did you get N1?
Did you use it or send it to someone?.

Why are you asking this?  Why should I trust you?

Only sudgy can demand things like this.

(I'd argue no one should be giving out this info unless they have a result to report that is meaningful.  So the opposite of Voltaire's report.)

By the way, why do you need to trust me to answer this question?
Your answer will be open information. There is nothing i can abuse as scum. 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #973 on: June 11, 2014, 05:45:16 pm »

Completely willing to trust in xeiron on whatever he's doing.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #974 on: June 11, 2014, 05:49:19 pm »

Sudgy.
Imagine this thought experiment: The letter you recieved from "Ashersky" N1 was not sent by Ashersky, but from another scum player, say Xerxes.

Do you think there could be any truth in this theory? Do the letter sound like it is written by Ashersky? Do it contains thing scum would like to say to you, or does it most likely come from town?

I know it is not easy to tell, but I would like to hear your thoughts anyway.

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #975 on: June 11, 2014, 05:52:03 pm »

Sudgy.
Imagine this thought experiment: The letter you recieved from "Ashersky" N1 was not sent by Ashersky, but from another scum player, say Xerxes.

Do you think there could be any truth in this theory? Do the letter sound like it is written by Ashersky? Do it contains thing scum would like to say to you, or does it most likely come from town?

I know it is not easy to tell, but I would like to hear your thoughts anyway.

But what would be the advantage of doing this?  Why not have Xerxes just send the message himself?  Unless the idea is to give more towncred to the more important role (Arsonist/Backup Arsonist).
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #976 on: June 11, 2014, 05:54:13 pm »

Voltaire.
Am I correct that you did not sent items to anyone N2, nor did you get any items from anyone?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #977 on: June 11, 2014, 05:55:02 pm »

Sudgy.
Imagine this thought experiment: The letter you recieved from "Ashersky" N1 was not sent by Ashersky, but from another scum player, say Xerxes.

Do you think there could be any truth in this theory? Do the letter sound like it is written by Ashersky? Do it contains thing scum would like to say to you, or does it most likely come from town?

I know it is not easy to tell, but I would like to hear your thoughts anyway.

But what would be the advantage of doing this?  Why not have Xerxes just send the message himself?  Unless the idea is to give more towncred to the more important role (Arsonist/Backup Arsonist).

The idea would be to confuse town about what item each mafia player have.
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #978 on: June 11, 2014, 05:59:52 pm »

Completely willing to trust in xeiron on whatever he's doing.

I am not. He should explain what he is doing to us and sudgy and then allow us to see if it is a route that we want to go. I will not just blindly follow someone w/o knowing what they are attempting to do or figure out.

Honestly I am totally lost at where we are at theory wise... which is partially why I don't trust it. xeiron if you want info from us explain why you want it... talk us through it. and "close to solving the setup isn't enough" so we can understand it and make an informed decision
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #979 on: June 11, 2014, 06:03:22 pm »

Voltaire.
Am I correct that you did not sent items to anyone N2, nor did you get any items from anyone?

I neither sent nor received items from anyone N2.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #980 on: June 11, 2014, 06:04:28 pm »

I am not. He should explain what he is doing to us and sudgy and then allow us to see if it is a route that we want to go. I will not just blindly follow someone w/o knowing what they are attempting to do or figure out.

Honestly I am totally lost at where we are at theory wise... which is partially why I don't trust it. xeiron if you want info from us explain why you want it... talk us through it. and "close to solving the setup isn't enough" so we can understand it and make an informed decision

I have never seen scum straight-up ask for information before. I have seen town do so, xeiron especially, who I think of as the "theory expert". I also have a town read on him this game, so.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #981 on: June 11, 2014, 06:08:58 pm »

I am not. He should explain what he is doing to us and sudgy and then allow us to see if it is a route that we want to go. I will not just blindly follow someone w/o knowing what they are attempting to do or figure out.

Honestly I am totally lost at where we are at theory wise... which is partially why I don't trust it. xeiron if you want info from us explain why you want it... talk us through it. and "close to solving the setup isn't enough" so we can understand it and make an informed decision

I have never seen scum straight-up ask for information before. I have seen town do so, xeiron especially, who I think of as the "theory expert". I also have a town read on him this game, so.

Cool. I don't though. He is in my scummy group, but not for what he is doing now, just where he fits into the groupings made so far. And yes if he is a theory expert then he should explain what he is doing and what he is thinking so everyone can understand it. I appreciate the work he is doing but if he wants participation and to make it fully pro-town then he needs to get people to understand it and what he is trying to do, not just mandate participation.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #982 on: June 11, 2014, 06:13:14 pm »

Completely willing to trust in xeiron on whatever he's doing.

I am not. He should explain what he is doing to us and sudgy and then allow us to see if it is a route that we want to go. I will not just blindly follow someone w/o knowing what they are attempting to do or figure out.

Honestly I am totally lost at where we are at theory wise... which is partially why I don't trust it. xeiron if you want info from us explain why you want it... talk us through it. and "close to solving the setup isn't enough" so we can understand it and make an informed decision

I am trying to catch scum.

And because of that I do not really want to say exactly what I am looking for and what scum should answer to not get my attention.

After I get my answers, I plan to post a big summary of the theory along with my conclutions.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #983 on: June 11, 2014, 06:18:44 pm »

Or you are just collecting all the important information scum needs.  Dude, you need to see how if you are wrong, this epically fails.

Explain HOW you can catch scum by just getting everyone's information.  You (no one) can confirm who sent what to whom, or who got what from EFHW, etc.  You can get claims and compare them to the info EFHW gave about daily deliveries, but in the end, there's just no downside to scum just telling the truth about the items they received.

Overall, this is actually a towny thing from you specifically, as you have a famous history of being extremely sure of a theory solving thing as town, and then being destructively wrong.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #984 on: June 11, 2014, 06:20:50 pm »

Or you are just collecting all the important information scum needs.  Dude, you need to see how if you are wrong, this epically fails.

Explain HOW you can catch scum by just getting everyone's information.  You (no one) can confirm who sent what to whom, or who got what from EFHW, etc.  You can get claims and compare them to the info EFHW gave about daily deliveries, but in the end, there's just no downside to scum just telling the truth about the items they received.

Overall, this is actually a towny thing from you specifically, as you have a famous history of being extremely sure of a theory solving thing as town, and then being destructively wrong.

This exactly. You will get absolutely nothing from me until you are transparent and I encourage everyone else to take the same stance.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #985 on: June 11, 2014, 06:22:20 pm »

I am not. He should explain what he is doing to us and sudgy and then allow us to see if it is a route that we want to go. I will not just blindly follow someone w/o knowing what they are attempting to do or figure out.

Honestly I am totally lost at where we are at theory wise... which is partially why I don't trust it. xeiron if you want info from us explain why you want it... talk us through it. and "close to solving the setup isn't enough" so we can understand it and make an informed decision

I have never seen scum straight-up ask for information before. I have seen town do so, xeiron especially, who I think of as the "theory expert". I also have a town read on him this game, so.

Cool. I don't though. He is in my scummy group, but not for what he is doing now, just where he fits into the groupings made so far. And yes if he is a theory expert then he should explain what he is doing and what he is thinking so everyone can understand it. I appreciate the work he is doing but if he wants participation and to make it fully pro-town then he needs to get people to understand it and what he is trying to do, not just mandate participation.

This is also a fine stance.
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #986 on: June 11, 2014, 06:23:37 pm »

Overall, this is actually a towny thing from you specifically, as you have a famous history of being extremely sure of a theory solving thing as town, and then being destructively wrong.

He's also been destructively right. He basically "solved" my Doctor Who RMM game, and it was breathtaking to watch. Hence me giving him cred here. If I had a scummy read in this game, I'd be more like yuma right now.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #987 on: June 11, 2014, 06:24:20 pm »

Contrast this to what I did at the start of day.

I said that I had received an item from someone and then stated to the group as a whole that I felt that whoever sent me said item should claim as such as long as no one saw a downside, because there was a pretty big upside to it.

So I:
1. stated what my intent was.
2. stated the upside and what I hoped to accomplish
3. allowed others to see what I was doing and give them time to point out errors (there weren't any)

in the end ADK is now very townie to me and everyone is happy.

This cloak and dagger stuff just doesn't work. It never works. So be clear and let other in on your grand master plan
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #988 on: June 11, 2014, 06:34:32 pm »

Sudgy.
Imagine this thought experiment: The letter you recieved from "Ashersky" N1 was not sent by Ashersky, but from another scum player, say Xerxes.

I've actually thought about this, but it seems like ash sent it to me at least.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #989 on: June 11, 2014, 06:41:43 pm »

Or you are just collecting all the important information scum needs.  Dude, you need to see how if you are wrong, this epically fails.

Explain HOW you can catch scum by just getting everyone's information.  You (no one) can confirm who sent what to whom, or who got what from EFHW, etc.  You can get claims and compare them to the info EFHW gave about daily deliveries, but in the end, there's just no downside to scum just telling the truth about the items they received.

Overall, this is actually a towny thing from you specifically, as you have a famous history of being extremely sure of a theory solving thing as town, and then being destructively wrong.

This exactly. You will get absolutely nothing from me until you are transparent and I encourage everyone else to take the same stance.

I believe I can be transparent by the time I will want something from you. But for now i will encourage everyone else to answer my questions.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #990 on: June 11, 2014, 06:46:48 pm »

I believe I can be transparent by the time I will want something from you. But for now i will encourage everyone else to answer my questions.

Nope.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #991 on: June 11, 2014, 06:50:59 pm »

vote: Xeiron for being anti-town.

As stated, I don't think the idea of xeiron having a theory-solving-plan is scummy, and I'm not particularly moved that Xeiron is scum.  This is a policy vote for someone I know won't be lynched today (barring a change in circumstances).

You can consider my vote still on Voltaire, but I'm hugely anti-xeiron's play right now.  Doesn't make him wrong (or me wrong), as this is a stated playstyle difference, but it's important to me enough at this point that it warrants a vote.

If you can "solve" the setup in a way that "breaks" the setup, I've always been one to go straight to the mod with it to fix, if possible.  That's readily provable, so it's not an alignment tell.  If you can "solve" the setup due to information that's come out, then just tell us how.  Or hint at it.  Or try to.

The "if I say something, scum will know and work around it" is 1000000000% a scumtell.
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #992 on: June 11, 2014, 06:54:27 pm »

Vote: xeiron
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #993 on: June 11, 2014, 06:55:56 pm »

sudyg weigh in here would ya? and weigh in on the side of transparency and accountability please...

No one answer xeiron's questions until he states his purpose!
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #994 on: June 11, 2014, 06:56:23 pm »

vote: Xeiron for being anti-town.

As stated, I don't think the idea of xeiron having a theory-solving-plan is scummy, and I'm not particularly moved that Xeiron is scum.  This is a policy vote for someone I know won't be lynched today (barring a change in circumstances).

You can consider my vote still on Voltaire, but I'm hugely anti-xeiron's play right now.  Doesn't make him wrong (or me wrong), as this is a stated playstyle difference, but it's important to me enough at this point that it warrants a vote.

If you can "solve" the setup in a way that "breaks" the setup, I've always been one to go straight to the mod with it to fix, if possible.  That's readily provable, so it's not an alignment tell.  If you can "solve" the setup due to information that's come out, then just tell us how.  Or hint at it.  Or try to.

The "if I say something, scum will know and work around it" is 1000000000% a scumtell.

I am not breaking the setup any more than a positive cop result breaks the setup. I am trying to get the most out of the results we have.
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #995 on: June 11, 2014, 06:57:19 pm »

ash, I just don't get you this game.

You tunneled faust, someone I take to be town (or likely town barring a possible theory scum-tell) for what I perceive as very, very, very weak reasons. You tunnel me, which I know to be wrong, and in my opinion don't build much of a case on me (obviously opinions will differ here). Now you vote xeiron, not because you think he's scum, but because you think he's anti-town.

In short, I don't see scumhunting from you.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #996 on: June 11, 2014, 06:58:52 pm »

I believe I can be transparent by the time I will want something from you. But for now i will encourage everyone else to answer my questions.

Nope.

Then let me make a guess. You got a magnifying glass N1 and you sent it to your scumpartner N2.
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #997 on: June 11, 2014, 06:59:17 pm »

I am worried that town (xeiron) is onto something, and scum (ash) is trying to shut him down. This after scum was basically forcibly outed via a theory-based plan D2 (XP).

If this scenario is true, caught up in it is town (yuma) who is seeking the same result as scum for completely different reasons.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #998 on: June 11, 2014, 07:00:22 pm »

ash, I just don't get you this game.

You tunneled faust, someone I take to be town (or likely town barring a possible theory scum-tell) for what I perceive as very, very, very weak reasons. You tunnel me, which I know to be wrong, and in my opinion don't build much of a case on me (obviously opinions will differ here). Now you vote xeiron, not because you think he's scum, but because you think he's anti-town.

In short, I don't see scumhunting from you.

I actually want to vote: ashersky after it has dawned on me he isn't really scumhunting.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #999 on: June 11, 2014, 07:02:36 pm »

I received a badge N1. Notwithstanding the badge xeiron sent me.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1000 on: June 11, 2014, 07:14:41 pm »

I received a badge N1. Notwithstanding the badge xeiron sent me.
Thanks.
What about your result on jimm?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1001 on: June 11, 2014, 07:16:10 pm »

I am worried that town (xeiron) is onto something, and scum (ash) is trying to shut him down. This after scum was basically forcibly outed via a theory-based plan D2 (XP).

If this scenario is true, caught up in it is town (yuma) who is seeking the same result as scum for completely different reasons.

But we knew what the end game was there! It was predictable! I am not saying people shouldn't participate, but rather that we should know what xeiron is up to as a whole. We all knew what we were getting into and what the risks were before. We don't here. We don't know if xeiron is actually onto somehting, is chasing a goose or is willfully hurting town. We just don't know....

And can someone just explain the basics of what is going on here? i have asked like 10 times and still gotten nothing, despite people obviously having some clue as to what is up (xeiron especially). I wish I could have time to go back and figure it out myself, but I don't have that time with the baby.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1002 on: June 11, 2014, 07:16:31 pm »

screw this...

I'll just stay in the dark. thanks.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1003 on: June 11, 2014, 07:17:57 pm »

Yuma, I am also in the dark but trusting that xeiron is going somewhere good in this. Compare it to sheeping the vote of a player you have a town read on. (not saying that makes it good, smart, right, or anything)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1004 on: June 11, 2014, 07:18:42 pm »

I DON"T HAVE A BLOODY TOWN READ ON HIM!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1005 on: June 11, 2014, 07:19:24 pm »

I received a badge N1. Notwithstanding the badge xeiron sent me.

I think this would make it certain that scum started with a Badge, if it wasn't already.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1006 on: June 11, 2014, 07:19:32 pm »

I DON"T HAVE A BLOODY TOWN READ ON HIM!

I KNOW THAT

I was more responding to the fact that you implied others had an idea where xeiron was going with this. I was letting you know that I do not, in fact, know where he is going with this.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1007 on: June 11, 2014, 07:20:13 pm »

I received a badge N1. Notwithstanding the badge xeiron sent me.

I think this would make it certain that scum started with a Badge, if it wasn't already.

Why?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1008 on: June 11, 2014, 07:20:30 pm »

Yuma, I am also in the dark but trusting that xeiron is going somewhere good in this. Compare it to sheeping the vote of a player you have a town read on. (not saying that makes it good, smart, right, or anything)

and it is just dumb to trust your reads blindly... whose to say your reads are good. even if I had a town read on xeiron I would be extremely hesitant about this... this is the same concern I had with you and your directing the show before you claimed... and you know what??? it weakened your claim and like ash said made it useless... same thing here. If xeiron gets all the information before telling us what he knows or wants to know I am going to be skeptical of it when he presents it. Because he is holding back until it is convinient for him and thus sketchy...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1009 on: June 11, 2014, 07:21:55 pm »

I received a badge N1. Notwithstanding the badge xeiron sent me.

I think this would make it certain that scum started with a Badge, if it wasn't already.

Why?

Because they used two on Night 2.  I received one as my random Night 1 item, and PPS did as well.  So scum could only have gotten 1 on Night 1, so they would have had to start with Badges in order to use two on Night 2.

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1010 on: June 11, 2014, 07:22:09 pm »

No... i am completely and totally lost as to where we are with just known information that is known and what it signifies...

at the least I would like xeiron to state the known facts that we have (none of his dirty dark secrets) but the stuff already out in the clear. Like I said, I wish I had time to go back, but I don't and really need to get off now anyway...
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1011 on: June 11, 2014, 07:22:34 pm »

I am worried that town (xeiron) is onto something, and scum (ash) is trying to shut him down. This after scum was basically forcibly outed via a theory-based plan D2 (XP).

If this scenario is true, caught up in it is town (yuma) who is seeking the same result as scum for completely different reasons.

But we knew what the end game was there! It was predictable! I am not saying people shouldn't participate, but rather that we should know what xeiron is up to as a whole. We all knew what we were getting into and what the risks were before. We don't here. We don't know if xeiron is actually onto somehting, is chasing a goose or is willfully hurting town. We just don't know....

And can someone just explain the basics of what is going on here? i have asked like 10 times and still gotten nothing, despite people obviously having some clue as to what is up (xeiron especially). I wish I could have time to go back and figure it out myself, but I don't have that time with the baby.

I can tell as much as the main thing right now is figuring out if Witherweawer is telling the truth.
WW claimd to recieve a magnifying glass N2. No-one has claimed to send one yet.
Because of that I am really interested in whether Faust did sendt one to ww.
PPS might also have indication on wheter jimm could have sendt one.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1012 on: June 11, 2014, 07:23:38 pm »

WW claimed? This is what I mean... I came back from a VLA and missed a whole bunch of stuff... someone help me?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1013 on: June 11, 2014, 07:24:52 pm »

WW claimed? This is what I mean... I came back from a VLA and missed a whole bunch of stuff... someone help me?

I Watched Sudgy and saw no one target him.  But we know he was targeted (with Roleblock).  So they must have used Stealth as well.

So we know they used: 2 Badges, 1 Bandage, 1 Magnifying Glass.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1014 on: June 11, 2014, 07:25:20 pm »

WW claimed? This is what I mean... I came back from a VLA and missed a whole bunch of stuff... someone help me?

Okay, so I guess I should claim.  I've been trying to figure out what all this means and I'm not really sure about it.

1) Someone sent me a Magnifying Glass last night.  It's unlikely to be Voltaire, given what he's claimed so far.  That makes it more likely to be Faust. It's also possible it's someone else that got their Magnifying Glass on Night 1. 

2) My Night 1 item was Badge, and so I did the obvious thing and Watched Sudgy (I used Voyeur on Xeiron), because I figured he may be sent the first Potato.   Both returned no result.  This is an issue as Sudgy seemed to have been targeted twice: once with Roleblocking and once with Potato.

3) Therefore, Stealth must have been used.  So we know Roleblock (Badge+Mag) and Stealth (Badge+Bandage) were used by scum last night, so 2 Badges + Mag + Bandage.

4) It's not clear to me if Stealth covers all actions performed by the player, or only one action.  If former, then the same player used Roleblocking and Potato on Sudgy, and Stealth worked on both.  If not, then one of them should have shown up (from what it says, only half of Stealth blocks Watcher/Voyeur).  Then they either Stealthed both (unlikely?) or they used Stealth on Roleblock and did not send the Potato directly to Sudgy.  Then Scum1 must have sent Potato to Scum2, who then sent it to Sudgy, because only the initial sending can be caught with Investigation.  This also increases the chance that Scum2 used a Privacy Curtain (Bandage) on himself, or Scum2 has a lot of town cred and was pretty sure no one would send him the Potato.

So that's where I'm at.  I guess the other possibility that would explain it was that Sudgy was Roleblocked AND Rolestopped, though that seems unlikely.. or that I was Roleblocked as well, but that also seems unlikely.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1015 on: June 11, 2014, 07:25:44 pm »

I received a badge N1. Notwithstanding the badge xeiron sent me.

I think this would make it certain that scum started with a Badge, if it wasn't already.

Why?

Because they used two on Night 2.  I received one as my random Night 1 item, and PPS did as well.  So scum could only have gotten 1 on Night 1, so they would have had to start with Badges in order to use two on Night 2.

Under the assumption you and PPS are town. But I do follow, yes. Thanks.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1016 on: June 11, 2014, 07:27:17 pm »

xeiron, you're just talking about people sending items, not the "magic fairy" items we're all gifted at the end of each night, right? I've gotten confused about this a few times now and it would be good for you to clarify this.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1017 on: June 11, 2014, 07:28:36 pm »

I am worried that town (xeiron) is onto something, and scum (ash) is trying to shut him down. This after scum was basically forcibly outed via a theory-based plan D2 (XP).

If this scenario is true, caught up in it is town (yuma) who is seeking the same result as scum for completely different reasons.

But we knew what the end game was there! It was predictable! I am not saying people shouldn't participate, but rather that we should know what xeiron is up to as a whole. We all knew what we were getting into and what the risks were before. We don't here. We don't know if xeiron is actually onto somehting, is chasing a goose or is willfully hurting town. We just don't know....

And can someone just explain the basics of what is going on here? i have asked like 10 times and still gotten nothing, despite people obviously having some clue as to what is up (xeiron especially). I wish I could have time to go back and figure it out myself, but I don't have that time with the baby.

I can tell as much as the main thing right now is figuring out if Witherweawer is telling the truth.
WW claimd to recieve a magnifying glass N2. No-one has claimed to send one yet.
Because of that I am really interested in whether Faust did sendt one to ww.
PPS might also have indication on wheter jimm could have sendt one.

I'm not sure how PPS's result could indicate anything.. unless he saw Jimm use a Magnifying Glass, because then it would be impossible for Jimmm to send one.  Item sending is invisible to Investigations.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1018 on: June 11, 2014, 07:29:28 pm »

I will leave it up to everyone's judgment whether or not to respond to xeiron.  Xeiron, unless it messes up the plan, I would rather you state your reasons for asking people what you are asking them.  I personally won't give information unless it looks like it might be good (I gave away my magnifying glasses because I saw a lot of "if sudgy started with this then this but if he started with that then that").
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1019 on: June 11, 2014, 07:31:16 pm »

xeiron, you're just talking about people sending items, not the "magic fairy" items we're all gifted at the end of each night, right? I've gotten confused about this a few times now and it would be good for you to clarify this.
I am talking about the "magic fairy" items as well. But not in the question I asked to you. I already assume you got a paper from the fairy.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1020 on: June 11, 2014, 07:32:57 pm »

Right, I saw if Jimmmmm used items  and which items were used if he had used them.

I could not see if he sent items or what they were if he sent them.

 I will say Jimmmmm did use items and since we know he was Town I know what he did with them. I don't however see the utility in making this knowledge public.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1021 on: June 11, 2014, 07:36:34 pm »

Right, I saw if Jimmmmm used items  and which items were used if he had used them.

I could not see if he sent items or what they were if he sent them.

 I will say Jimmmmm did use items and since we know he was Town I know what he did with them. I don't however see the utility in making this knowledge public.

If he used two items, we can conclude that he did not send a item anyone.

If he used a item that is not a badge, he did not send a glass to WW.

If he only used a badge, it is still a open question if jimm sent anything to someone.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1022 on: June 11, 2014, 07:38:52 pm »

I believe I can be transparent by the time I will want something from you. But for now i will encourage everyone else to answer my questions.

Nope.

Then let me make a guess. You got a magnifying glass N1 and you sent it to your scumpartner N2.

Damn, you caught me.  You and your mega-amazing dirty dark secrets theory plans are just too awesome!

My scumpartner is Voltaire, by the way.  I'm done with this.

vote: ashersky
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1023 on: June 11, 2014, 07:44:06 pm »

Since I am not ash's scumpartner, I have no idea what is going on here.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1024 on: June 11, 2014, 07:52:40 pm »

Right, I saw if Jimmmmm used items  and which items were used if he had used them.

I could not see if he sent items or what they were if he sent them.

 I will say Jimmmmm did use items and since we know he was Town I know what he did with them. I don't however see the utility in making this knowledge public.

Well, this implies plural, which I think makes it impossible for Jimmm to have sent it.  Since no one else has spoken up, it has to be Faust.

Unvote for now. I have to rethink the analysis I was doing of the items.

Xeiron, can we move on under the assumption that I'm telling the truth (which I am).  What's the next step?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1025 on: June 11, 2014, 08:00:41 pm »

Right, I saw if Jimmmmm used items  and which items were used if he had used them.

I could not see if he sent items or what they were if he sent them.

 I will say Jimmmmm did use items and since we know he was Town I know what he did with them. I don't however see the utility in making this knowledge public.

Well, this implies plural, which I think makes it impossible for Jimmm to have sent it.  Since no one else has spoken up, it has to be Faust.

Unvote for now. I have to rethink the analysis I was doing of the items.

Xeiron, can we move on under the assumption that I'm telling the truth (which I am).  What's the next step?

I have been moving under that assumption for now, but the next step is really to confirm that you are town. So I guess we have to wait for the next morning in europe and for Faust to appear. I'm going to sleep now.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1026 on: June 11, 2014, 09:16:52 pm »

Vote Count 3.4

faust (1): pingpongsam
xeiron (1): yuma
ashersky (2): Voltaire, ashersky

not voting (5): A Drowned Kernel, faust, sudgy, xeiron, Witherweaver

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline is Sunday, June 15th at 1 pm
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1027 on: June 12, 2014, 02:33:38 am »

It's kind of hard to keep up with everything in this. I'll just compile a list of all stuff that we know and try figuring stuff out from there.

Starting items claimed:
Paper: Ash, WW, ADK
Badge: Jimmmmm, xeiron, ?
Bandage: PPS, (yuma), ?
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, faust, ?

Bomb chains:
N1: Mafia -> sudgy -> PPS -> Archetype
N2: Mafia -> sudgy -> PPS -> Jimmmmm

Item sending:
- yuma sent an item to sudgy
- yuma received an item
- ADK sent Bandages to yuma
- xeiron sent a Badge to PPS
- PPS received a Badge
- WW received a Magnifying Glass
- Voltaire did not send nor receive items

Night actions:
- sudgy was roleblocked
- PPS spied Jimmmmm (1 Badge)
- ADK didn't use a night action
- WW used Telescope on sudgy (watched) and xeiron (voyeur'd) (1 Magnifying Glass,
- xeiron did not use a night action
- Voltaire used Binoculars on yuma (followed) and PPS (tracked) (1 Magnifying Glass, 1

What items people have now, assuming no further night actions:

ashersky: 1 random item
WW: 1 paper
ADK: 1 paper
xeiron: 1 random item
PPS: 1 bandage
yuma: 2 bandages
Voltaire: no item
faust: 1 Magnifying Glass, 1 random item
sudgy: lots of stuff
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1028 on: June 12, 2014, 02:35:23 am »

Forgot to fill stuff out!

Starting items claimed:
Paper: Ash, WW, ADK
Badge: Jimmmmm, xeiron, ?
Bandage: PPS, (yuma), ?
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, faust, ?

Bomb chains:
N1: Mafia -> sudgy -> PPS -> Archetype
N2: Mafia -> sudgy -> PPS -> Jimmmmm

Item sending:
- yuma sent an item to sudgy
- yuma received an item
- ADK sent Bandages to yuma
- xeiron sent a Badge to PPS
- PPS received a Badge
- WW received a Magnifying Glass
- Voltaire did not send nor receive items

Night actions:
- sudgy was roleblocked
- PPS spied Jimmmmm (1 Badge)
- ADK didn't use a night action
- WW used Telescope on sudgy (watched) and xeiron (voyeur'd) (1 Magnifying Glass, 1 Badge)
- xeiron did not use a night action
- Voltaire used Binoculars on yuma (followed) and PPS (tracked) (1 Magnifying Glass, 1 Paper)

What items people have now, assuming no further night actions:

ashersky: 1 random item
WW: 1 paper
ADK: 1 paper
xeiron: 1 random item
PPS: 1 bandage
yuma: 2 bandages
Voltaire: no item
faust: 1 Magnifying Glass, 1 random item
sudgy: lots of stuff
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1029 on: June 12, 2014, 02:36:54 am »

You are missing stuff in the "what people have" list.  Remember, everyone got one item on N1 and one item on N2.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1030 on: June 12, 2014, 02:39:46 am »

I think mass claiming everything can solve this, yes?

I did not send any item to WW, btw.

So vote: Witherweaver unless someone else claims to have sent something.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1031 on: June 12, 2014, 02:40:56 am »

You are missing stuff in the "what people have" list.  Remember, everyone got one item on N1 and one item on N2.

I think yuma has one item more, but everything else should be correct (assuming everyone told the truth of course).
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1032 on: June 12, 2014, 03:27:53 am »

Faust.
What random item did you recieve After N1?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1033 on: June 12, 2014, 03:39:36 am »

You are missing stuff in the "what people have" list.  Remember, everyone got one item on N1 and one item on N2.

I think yuma has one item more, but everything else should be correct (assuming everyone told the truth of course).

You are wrong on me and I told the truth.

Remember, everyone starts with 2.  -1 for sudgy, then +1 on N1 and +1 on N2.

People can gave between 0-4 items.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1034 on: June 12, 2014, 03:55:52 am »

You are missing stuff in the "what people have" list.  Remember, everyone got one item on N1 and one item on N2.

I think yuma has one item more, but everything else should be correct (assuming everyone told the truth of course).

You are wrong on me and I told the truth.

Remember, everyone starts with 2.  -1 for sudgy, then +1 on N1 and +1 on N2.

People can gave between 0-4 items.

But since no-one has used their N2 items for anything, we might just as well keep them out from the chart.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1035 on: June 12, 2014, 04:17:21 am »

Here is a rundown of the theory.

Starting items claimed:
Paper: Ash, WW, ADK
Badge: Jimmmmm, xeiron, ?
Bandage: PPS, (yuma), ?
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, faust, Sudgy

Archetype takes the place of one of the underlined.
? = (scum (Xerxes), scum (one of the underlined)
Then there is one more scum who claimed truthfully


Bomb chains:
N1: Mafia -> sudgy -> PPS -> Archetype
N2: Mafia -> sudgy -> PPS -> Jimmmmm


N1 randon item:
Paper: xeiron, Voltaire, ?
Badge: pps, WW ?
Bandage: ADK, Xerxes(lie?)
Magnifying Glass: ?, ?, ?

Mafia started (almost certainly) with no Magnifying glass. They used one to roleblock N2, so there must be (at least) one mafia among the persons who got magnifying glasses randomly D1

Item sending:
- yuma sent an item to sudgy
- yuma received an item
- ADK sent Bandages to yuma
- xeiron sent a Badge to PPS
- PPS received a Badge
- WW received a Magnifying Glass
- Voltaire did not send nor receive items

Night actions:
- sudgy was roleblocked
- PPS spied Jimmmmm (1 Badge)
- ADK didn't use a night action
- WW used Telescope on sudgy (watched) and xeiron (voyeur'd) (1 Magnifying Glass, 1 Badge)
- xeiron did not use a night action
- Voltaire used Binoculars on yuma (followed) and PPS (tracked) (1 Magnifying Glass, 1 Paper)
- Jimmmmm did something

We know that mafia used (1 Magnifying Glass, 1 Badge) for dazzling light

What items people have now, assuming no further night actions:

ashersky: 1 random item
WW: 1 paper
ADK: 1 paper
xeiron: 1 paper
PPS: 1 bandage, 1 badge
yuma: 2 bandages
Voltaire: no item
faust: 1 Magnifying Glass, 1 random item
sudgy: lots of stuff
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1036 on: June 12, 2014, 04:26:28 am »

The next step is to find out who got a random Magnifying glass N1.
At least one of them have to be scum.

We still do not know the items of Sudgy, Faust, Yuma, Jimm and Ash.
Could all of you please claim?

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1037 on: June 12, 2014, 04:59:42 am »

I received a Paper N1.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1038 on: June 12, 2014, 06:04:42 am »

My list is incomplete, inaccurate and I've told nothing but the truth.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1039 on: June 12, 2014, 06:09:00 am »

I built a privacy curtain N1 because I expected scum!arch to bounce me the potato or scum and town to otherwise hit me twice. Xeiron has not paid attention to how many badges I have had in my possession.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1040 on: June 12, 2014, 06:11:01 am »

He also states that scum couldn't start with a mag glass.  Why?  You underlined all the mag glass people.  Voltaire, who is my scum partner, started with a mag glass.

You see how this theory of yours fails?  You can't know the things you posit.  You have no basis to believe it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1041 on: June 12, 2014, 07:00:03 am »

He also states that scum couldn't start with a mag glass.  Why?  You underlined all the mag glass people.  Voltaire, who is my scum partner, started with a mag glass.

You see how this theory of yours fails?  You can't know the things you posit.  You have no basis to believe it.

If voltaire is your scumpartner, he fakeclaimed the same thing as Archetype had.
In that case Archetype had magnifying glasses, and Voltaire had badges or bandages (wharever Xerxes did not have)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1042 on: June 12, 2014, 07:07:33 am »

He also states that scum couldn't start with a mag glass.  Why?  You underlined all the mag glass people.  Voltaire, who is my scum partner, started with a mag glass.

You see how this theory of yours fails?  You can't know the things you posit.  You have no basis to believe it.

If voltaire is your scumpartner, he fakeclaimed the same thing as Archetype had.
In that case Archetype had magnifying glasses, and Voltaire had badges or bandages (wharever Xerxes did not have)

Why?  Why can't scum!voltaire be telling the truth?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1043 on: June 12, 2014, 07:07:51 am »

My list is incomplete, inaccurate and I've told nothing but the truth.

The list is incomplete, yes. it is mostly a list of claims, not a list of the actual state.

You have one badge left, right? You got one from me and one at random N1. You have used one as a spy.
Am I missing something?
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1044 on: June 12, 2014, 07:11:36 am »

He also states that scum couldn't start with a mag glass.  Why?  You underlined all the mag glass people.  Voltaire, who is my scum partner, started with a mag glass.

You see how this theory of yours fails?  You can't know the things you posit.  You have no basis to believe it.

If voltaire is your scumpartner, he fakeclaimed the same thing as Archetype had.
In that case Archetype had magnifying glasses, and Voltaire had badges or bandages (wharever Xerxes did not have)

Why?  Why can't scum!voltaire be telling the truth?

Because then we cannot account for Archetype's item.
He could not have had a magnifying glass unless someone saying the have a glass is lying.

And he could not have sent your paper as he would not say 'my name is Ash' on the letter if he did.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1045 on: June 12, 2014, 07:14:27 am »

My list is incomplete, inaccurate and I've told nothing but the truth.

The list is incomplete, yes. it is mostly a list of claims, not a list of the actual state.

You have one badge left, right? You got one from me and one at random N1. You have used one as a spy.
Am I missing something?

Not now. Both lists were wrong for different reasons. If you are this remiss with me telling you straight truths and withholding info useful to scum then I can only imagine the rest of the list is similarly flawed and thus likely not useful for catching scum. If you are scum then bravo for your being so forward in public data collection.

What you do not know is what random item I received last night or what anyone may have sent me or I may have sent them last night. That seems like a substantial hole for a single player in the list with regards to the integrity of the entire list.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1046 on: June 12, 2014, 07:23:51 am »

All the assumption are also based on sudgy being blocked.  Not a given.

Sudgy could have targeted a stealthed player, or a rolestopped player.  Both would then return No Result, just like being blocked.  Rolestopper is like a super godfather thing, and scum knows this from when I had it in a previous game.

The assumptions, the list, all unreliable.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1047 on: June 12, 2014, 07:32:36 am »

All the assumption are also based on sudgy being blocked.  Not a given.

Sudgy could have targeted a stealthed player, or a rolestopped player.  Both would then return No Result, just like being blocked.  Rolestopper is like a super godfather thing, and scum knows this from when I had it in a previous game.

The assumptions, the list, all unreliable.

If sudgy says he was roleblocked, I think he has sufficient proof to KNOW he was roleblocked.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1048 on: June 12, 2014, 07:47:56 am »

My list is incomplete, inaccurate and I've told nothing but the truth.

The list is incomplete, yes. it is mostly a list of claims, not a list of the actual state.

You have one badge left, right? You got one from me and one at random N1. You have used one as a spy.
Am I missing something?

Not now. Both lists were wrong for different reasons. If you are this remiss with me telling you straight truths and withholding info useful to scum then I can only imagine the rest of the list is similarly flawed and thus likely not useful for catching scum. If you are scum then bravo for your being so forward in public data collection.

What you do not know is what random item I received last night or what anyone may have sent me or I may have sent them last night. That seems like a substantial hole for a single player in the list with regards to the integrity of the entire list.

There are holes in the list, and I know where there are holes in the list. It can still be used to catch scum by finding lies.
Even if you have not claimed if you sendt any items N2, You cannot have sent a magnifying glass to WW without lying somewhere. That can also be said for everyone else except Ashersky.

That said I am still interested in hearing what you recieved and sent.
I am even more interested in hearing the result on jimmmmm.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1049 on: June 12, 2014, 07:49:02 am »

All the assumption are also based on sudgy being blocked.  Not a given.

Sudgy could have targeted a stealthed player, or a rolestopped player.  Both would then return No Result, just like being blocked.  Rolestopper is like a super godfather thing, and scum knows this from when I had it in a previous game.

The assumptions, the list, all unreliable.

If sudgy says he was roleblocked, I think he has sufficient proof to KNOW he was roleblocked.

No, he doesn't.

The result of being roleblocked and of targeting a rolestopped player, depending on the action, is the same.  Same with stealth.

He can't know for sure.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1050 on: June 12, 2014, 08:01:14 am »

All the assumption are also based on sudgy being blocked.  Not a given.

Sudgy could have targeted a stealthed player, or a rolestopped player.  Both would then return No Result, just like being blocked.  Rolestopper is like a super godfather thing, and scum knows this from when I had it in a previous game.

The assumptions, the list, all unreliable.

If sudgy says he was roleblocked, I think he has sufficient proof to KNOW he was roleblocked.

No, he doesn't.

The result of being roleblocked and of targeting a rolestopped player, depending on the action, is the same.  Same with stealth.

He can't know for sure.

You still need a magnifying glass to make rolestopper. So it makes no difference if that is the case.

You cannot block Reconnaissance by stealth.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1051 on: June 12, 2014, 09:07:56 am »

- Voltaire used Binoculars on yuma (followed) and PPS (tracked) (1 Magnifying Glass, 1

I used a Telescope, fyi.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1052 on: June 12, 2014, 09:20:55 am »

A update on the theory.

Starting items claimed:
Paper: Ash, WW, ADK
Badge: Jimmmmm, xeiron, ?
Bandage: PPS, (yuma), ?
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, faust, Sudgy

Archetype takes the place of one of the underlined.
? = (scum (Xerxes), scum (one of the underlined)
Then there is one more scum who claimed truthfully


N1 Actions:
Sudgy did something (and was not blocked)
pps made privacy curtain (1 bandage)
Ash sent a letter. (one paper)


Bomb chains:
N1: Mafia -> sudgy -> PPS -> Archetype
N2: Mafia -> sudgy -> PPS -> Jimmmmm


N1 randon item:
Paper: Xeiron, Voltaire, Faust
Badge: pps, WW ?
Bandage: ADK, Xerxes(lie?)
Magnifying Glass: ?, ?, ?

Mafia started (almost certainly) with no Magnifying glass. They used one to roleblock N2, so there must be (at least) one mafia among the persons who got magnifying glasses randomly D1

N2 Item sending:
- yuma sent an item to sudgy
- yuma received an item
- ADK sent Bandages to yuma
- xeiron sent a Badge to PPS
- PPS received a Badge
- WW received a Magnifying Glass
- Voltaire did not send nor receive items

N2 Actions:
- sudgy was roleblocked
- PPS spied Jimmmmm (1 Badge)
- ADK didn't use a night action
- WW used Binoculars on sudgy (watched) and xeiron (voyeur'd) (1 Magnifying Glass, 1 Badge)
- xeiron did not use a night action
- Voltaire used Telescope on yuma (followed) and PPS (tracked) (1 Magnifying Glass, 1 Paper)
- Jimmmmm did something

We know that mafia used (1 Magnifying Glass, 1 Badge) for dazzling light

What items people have now, assuming no further night actions:

ashersky: 1 random item
WW: 1 paper
ADK: 1 paper
xeiron: 1 paper
PPS: 1 badge
yuma: 2 bandages
Voltaire: no item
faust: 1 Magnifying Glass, 1 paper
sudgy: lots of stuff
[/quote]
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1053 on: June 12, 2014, 09:49:50 am »

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1054 on: June 12, 2014, 09:52:34 am »

I'm feel good with my lone vote on faust. I have no idea where the L-1 wagon disappeared to.

Assuming faust flips scum I feel good the remaining scum is between WW/ADK and I would lean ADK.

I am tempted to believe ashersky's claim to be scum because it is just like him to do that. I remember the Ninja Werewolf soft-claim he made that turned out to be exactly the case. Otherwise there is no POE that leads to ashersky being scum.
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1055 on: June 12, 2014, 09:55:19 am »

so who should i vote for? WW? faust? I am ready for some dice mafia!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1056 on: June 12, 2014, 10:02:56 am »

I'm feel good with my lone vote on faust. I have no idea where the L-1 wagon disappeared to.

Assuming faust flips scum I feel good the remaining scum is between WW/ADK and I would lean ADK.

I am tempted to believe ashersky's claim to be scum because it is just like him to do that. I remember the Ninja Werewolf soft-claim he made that turned out to be exactly the case. Otherwise there is no POE that leads to ashersky being scum.

There are much that points at Ashersky and Witherweaver as scum.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1057 on: June 12, 2014, 10:03:36 am »

I'm feel good with my lone vote on faust. I have no idea where the L-1 wagon disappeared to.

Assuming faust flips scum I feel good the remaining scum is between WW/ADK and I would lean ADK.

I am tempted to believe ashersky's claim to be scum because it is just like him to do that. I remember the Ninja Werewolf soft-claim he made that turned out to be exactly the case. Otherwise there is no POE that leads to ashersky being scum.

There are much that points at Ashersky and Witherweaver as scum.

Except that Ash's scum partner is Voltaire!
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1058 on: June 12, 2014, 10:06:34 am »

I'm feel good with my lone vote on faust. I have no idea where the L-1 wagon disappeared to.

Assuming faust flips scum I feel good the remaining scum is between WW/ADK and I would lean ADK.

I am tempted to believe ashersky's claim to be scum because it is just like him to do that. I remember the Ninja Werewolf soft-claim he made that turned out to be exactly the case. Otherwise there is no POE that leads to ashersky being scum.

There are much that points at Ashersky and Witherweaver as scum.

Except that Ash's scum partner is Voltaire!

No. We are looking for someone who used roleblocker (1 badge + 1 magnifying glass).
You used 1 badge + 1 magnifying glass last night.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1059 on: June 12, 2014, 10:11:28 am »

That is true.  But I did not Roleblock.  I Binoculared.  I guess there's no way this can be proven.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1060 on: June 12, 2014, 10:12:34 am »

I'm feel good with my lone vote on faust. I have no idea where the L-1 wagon disappeared to.

Assuming faust flips scum I feel good the remaining scum is between WW/ADK and I would lean ADK.

I am tempted to believe ashersky's claim to be scum because it is just like him to do that. I remember the Ninja Werewolf soft-claim he made that turned out to be exactly the case. Otherwise there is no POE that leads to ashersky being scum.

There are much that points at Ashersky and Witherweaver as scum.

Except that Ash's scum partner is Voltaire!

I've been wondering if ash, as scum, would try to take me to the grave with him. I can't see why he'd spend all the effort unless I was 100% on to him and his partner and I do not have an ego big enough to believe that. At the same time, if ash is scum, I'd love to be in a 1-for-1 trade to take him out, so  :-\ .
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1061 on: June 12, 2014, 10:12:57 am »

That should start "I've been wondering why ash, as scum..."
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1062 on: June 12, 2014, 10:16:10 am »

That is true.  But I did not Roleblock.  I Binoculared.  I guess there's no way this can be proven.

Wait...claiming to Binocular sudgy is really, really safe if you know you actually Roleblocked him yourself.

What did WW claim to see xeiron do?
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1063 on: June 12, 2014, 10:16:52 am »

That is true.  But I did not Roleblock.  I Binoculared.  I guess there's no way this can be proven.

But I think it can be disproven.

I just cannot see how you got the items to build Binoculars if you are town.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1064 on: June 12, 2014, 10:18:07 am »

That is true.  But I did not Roleblock.  I Binoculared.  I guess there's no way this can be proven.

Wait...claiming to Binocular sudgy is really, really safe if you know you actually Roleblocked him yourself.

What did WW claim to see xeiron do?

No, I didn't Track/Follow, I Watched/Voyeured.  I got no result for both.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1065 on: June 12, 2014, 10:18:31 am »

That is true.  But I did not Roleblock.  I Binoculared.  I guess there's no way this can be proven.

But I think it can be disproven.

I just cannot see how you got the items to build Binoculars if you are town.

I do not understand either, except that I did.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1066 on: June 12, 2014, 10:26:41 am »

Vote: WW

Potato: Ash
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1067 on: June 12, 2014, 10:27:43 am »

N2 Actions:
- sudgy was roleblocked
- PPS spied Jimmmmm (1 Badge)
- ADK didn't use a night action
- WW used Binoculars on sudgy (watched) and xeiron (voyeur'd) (1 Magnifying Glass, 1 Badge)
- xeiron did not use a night action
- Voltaire used Telescope on yuma (followed) and PPS (tracked) (1 Magnifying Glass, 1 Paper)
- Jimmmmm did something

So far ash, yuma, faust haven't claimed, or have refused to claim, night actions from N2. Is this correct? That's everyone?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1068 on: June 12, 2014, 10:28:10 am »

Vote: WW

Potato: Ash

What would be the purpose of making this claim at all if it wasn't true?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1069 on: June 12, 2014, 10:29:43 am »

Vote: WW

Potato: Ash

What would be the purpose of making this claim at all if it wasn't true?
To be safe if someone spyed on you.
And to spread misinformation (about scum using stealth etc.)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1070 on: June 12, 2014, 10:29:48 am »

That is true.  But I did not Roleblock.  I Binoculared.  I guess there's no way this can be proven.

But I think it can be disproven.

I just cannot see how you got the items to build Binoculars if you are town.

I do not understand either, except that I did.

This is impossible, unless you're trying to maintain confusion over whether another player gifted you items. How, as town, could you not understand?
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1071 on: June 12, 2014, 10:32:02 am »

are we at the point where someone can explain what the hell is going on?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1072 on: June 12, 2014, 10:32:07 am »

Vote: WitherWeaver
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1073 on: June 12, 2014, 10:33:12 am »

are we at the point where someone can explain what the hell is going on?

Xeiron appears to have caught WW in a lie, and WW's reply

That is true.  But I did not Roleblock.  I Binoculared.  I guess there's no way this can be proven.

But I think it can be disproven.

I just cannot see how you got the items to build Binoculars if you are town.

I do not understand either, except that I did.

appears to be a tacit admission of guilt. I'm awaiting an alternate explanation, if he attempts to give one.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1074 on: June 12, 2014, 10:33:24 am »

That is true.  But I did not Roleblock.  I Binoculared.  I guess there's no way this can be proven.

But I think it can be disproven.

I just cannot see how you got the items to build Binoculars if you are town.

I do not understand either, except that I did.

This is impossible, unless you're trying to maintain confusion over whether another player gifted you items. How, as town, could you not understand?

I don't understand the why.
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1075 on: June 12, 2014, 10:34:07 am »

what is the lie? talk to me like I am an idiot 5 year old
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1076 on: June 12, 2014, 10:34:21 am »

Vote: WW

Potato: Ash

What would be the purpose of making this claim at all if it wasn't true?
To be safe if someone spyed on you.
And to spread misinformation (about scum using stealth etc.)

But that's an excessively silly thing to be safe on.  Why not wait until someone reported a spy result?  And why would I have any reason to believe anyone spied me?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1077 on: June 12, 2014, 10:34:51 am »

That is true.  But I did not Roleblock.  I Binoculared.  I guess there's no way this can be proven.

But I think it can be disproven.

I just cannot see how you got the items to build Binoculars if you are town.

I do not understand either, except that I did.

This is impossible, unless you're trying to maintain confusion over whether another player gifted you items. How, as town, could you not understand?

I don't understand the why.

I'm having trouble understanding you. What "why" are you talking about?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1078 on: June 12, 2014, 10:35:50 am »

That is true.  But I did not Roleblock.  I Binoculared.  I guess there's no way this can be proven.

But I think it can be disproven.

I just cannot see how you got the items to build Binoculars if you are town.

I do not understand either, except that I did.

This is impossible, unless you're trying to maintain confusion over whether another player gifted you items. How, as town, could you not understand?

I don't understand the why.

I'm having trouble understanding you. What "why" are you talking about?

Obviously someone sent me them.  What I don't understand is why no one would claim to have.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1079 on: June 12, 2014, 10:37:02 am »

Obviously someone sent me them.  What I don't understand is why no one would claim to have.

OK, I see. What are the odds Jimmmmm sent them to you? I assume PPS can answer "yes" or "no" to this.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1080 on: June 12, 2014, 10:38:02 am »

Obviously someone sent me them.  What I don't understand is why no one would claim to have.

OK, I see. What are the odds Jimmmmm sent them to you? I assume PPS can answer "yes" or "no" to this.

From what PPS implied before (Jimmm using two items), Jimmmm could not have.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1081 on: June 12, 2014, 10:39:23 am »

Obviously someone sent me them.  What I don't understand is why no one would claim to have.

OK, I see. What are the odds Jimmmmm sent them to you? I assume PPS can answer "yes" or "no" to this.

From what PPS implied before (Jimmm using two items), Jimmmm could not have.

And how crazy would it be for scum to think that sending you a magnifying glass could result in your mislynch? As I'm counting on town to not be lying here, that's the only scenario I can think of where you're town.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1082 on: June 12, 2014, 10:41:49 am »

I think crazier than sending me one for town cred. 

Though maybe they initially planned to send for town cred and then realized it was much more opportune to make people think I'm lying?  That points back to Faust.  When he came back he was in the sole position to verify the validity.

Vote: Faust
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1083 on: June 12, 2014, 10:43:31 am »

I think crazier than sending me one for town cred. 

Though maybe they initially planned to send for town cred and then realized it was much more opportune to make people think I'm lying?  That points back to Faust.  When he came back he was in the sole position to verify the validity.

Vote: Faust

I did indeed notice that faust posted a whole lot of nothing when he returned (from a non-theory POV).

xieron, don't disappear on me here. I'm far from convinced. Sell me on this.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1084 on: June 12, 2014, 10:50:29 am »

what is the lie? talk to me like I am an idiot 5 year old

Witherweawer claimed to receive a privacy curtain from someone N2
No-one has claimed to send one.

Ashersky is the only one left.

There also is the problem of WW conflicting sudgy.

Sudgy claimed to be roleblocked, and to receive the potato.
WW watched neither of those.

If WW is town, scum must have made stealth in addition to the roleblocker.

I just cannot find a scumteam capable of making both if WW is town.
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1085 on: June 12, 2014, 10:54:51 am »

Ashersky is the only one left.

Would this mean that ash is scum should WW flip town? ie he'd have to claim he watched as we mislynched WW based on his not speaking up, ie, he'd have to rely on claiming horrendous town play (which I trust ash not to do)?
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1086 on: June 12, 2014, 10:55:23 am »

Not saying ash and WW couldn't both be scum, of course.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1087 on: June 12, 2014, 10:55:29 am »

I think crazier than sending me one for town cred. 

Though maybe they initially planned to send for town cred and then realized it was much more opportune to make people think I'm lying?  That points back to Faust.  When he came back he was in the sole position to verify the validity.

Vote: Faust

If faust is scum, he probably do not has magnifying glasses (Archetype had)
That means he could not have sent you one.

If faust had magnifying glasses, his partners must have strated with bandages and badges, and we are back on the old question on why not block Sudgy N1?
The archetype problem also makes it imopssible for Faust with magnifying glasses to be partner with Ashersky (or with Yuma). And I belive Ash is scum.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1088 on: June 12, 2014, 10:55:52 am »

A Magnifying Glass, not a Privacy curtain.

Sudgy claimed to be Roleblocked and Receive the Potato before I claimed. 

There can be a scumteam capable of making both.  They need 2 Badges + Magnifying Glass + Bandage.  Remember, Xerxes didn't send an item Night 1, so he could send his initial item (Badge or Bandage) to his scum partner.  Also remember that scum are going to lie about what items they receive, and we know one lied about what items they initially had.   
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1089 on: June 12, 2014, 10:58:31 am »

Since you are only allowed one form of protection at a time, you WILL be informed if you own a fireproof and when it is used up.

Here's something I just noticed. Can we take this to mean fireproofs were handed out last night? Why else would EFHW clarify this, and nothing else, at the start of the day?

If this is true, some(town)one spent 1 Badge + 1 Bandage on it.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1090 on: June 12, 2014, 11:01:03 am »

Since you are only allowed one form of protection at a time, you WILL be informed if you own a fireproof and when it is used up.

Here's something I just noticed. Can we take this to mean fireproofs were handed out last night? Why else would EFHW clarify this, and nothing else, at the start of the day?

If this is true, some(town)one spent 1 Badge + 1 Bandage on it.

I think jimm did.
It is past time Pingpongsam comes and clears this up.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1091 on: June 12, 2014, 11:02:07 am »

I think crazier than sending me one for town cred. 

Though maybe they initially planned to send for town cred and then realized it was much more opportune to make people think I'm lying?  That points back to Faust.  When he came back he was in the sole position to verify the validity.

Vote: Faust

If faust is scum, he probably do not has magnifying glasses (Archetype had)
That means he could not have sent you one.

If faust had magnifying glasses, his partners must have strated with bandages and badges, and we are back on the old question on why not block Sudgy N1?
The archetype problem also makes it imopssible for Faust with magnifying glasses to be partner with Ashersky (or with Yuma). And I belive Ash is scum.

I don't think this is right.  Hypothetical, Faust starts with 2 Badges, Xerxes starts with 2 Bandages.  Third one has whatever that is not Mag.  Night 1, Xerxes sends Bandage to Faust, Faust sends nothing.  Faust receives Mag, Xerxes receives (doesn't matter), third scum receives Mag.  Then on Night 2 scum has, at least, 2 Mag, 2 Badges and 1 Bandage. (Xerxes has been lynched.)  So they can make both powers, and Faust could still send a Magnifying Glass.
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1092 on: June 12, 2014, 11:03:54 am »

I don't think this is right.  Hypothetical, Faust starts with 2 Badges, Xerxes starts with 2 Bandages.  Third one has whatever that is not Mag.  Night 1, Xerxes sends Bandage to Faust, Faust sends nothing.  Faust receives Mag, Xerxes receives (doesn't matter), third scum receives Mag.  Then on Night 2 scum has, at least, 2 Mag, 2 Badges and 1 Bandage. (Xerxes has been lynched.)  So they can make both powers, and Faust could still send a Magnifying Glass.

Who is the third scum then? Don't we have enough information to have a very short list of people on who that would be?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1093 on: June 12, 2014, 11:04:04 am »

Vote Count 3.5

xeiron (1): yuma
ashersky (2): Voltaire, ashersky
Witherweaver (3): faust, xeiron, pingpongsam
faust (1): Witherweaver

not voting (2): A Drowned Kernel, sudgy

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline is Sunday, June 15th at 1 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1094 on: June 12, 2014, 11:06:29 am »

Do I need to do anything...? see this is what I wanted from the start, clarity and an actual purpose. I don't see why there was a need to be so cryptic the whole time
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1095 on: June 12, 2014, 11:06:48 am »

A Magnifying Glass, not a Privacy curtain.

Sudgy claimed to be Roleblocked and Receive the Potato before I claimed. 

There can be a scumteam capable of making both.  They need 2 Badges + Magnifying Glass + Bandage.  Remember, Xerxes didn't send an item Night 1, so he could send his initial item (Badge or Bandage) to his scum partner.  Also remember that scum are going to lie about what items they receive, and we know one lied about what items they initially had.
No there is not enough magnifying glasses around for both you (if town) and scum to receive one.

There are 3 glasses among Sudgy, Yuma, Ashersky, jimm and maybe Xerxes.

sudgy is town. yuma sent a item to sudgy, so he could not have sent one to either of you or scum. still waiting on pps on jimmm. Xerxes died before he could use it. Ashersky has to be scum, but he could not have sent it to both you and scum without you being scum.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1096 on: June 12, 2014, 11:07:54 am »

Do I need to do anything...? see this is what I wanted from the start, clarity and an actual purpose. I don't see why there was a need to be so cryptic the whole time

Please claim the item you randomly received after N1. If it is a magnifying glass it will help prove Ash is scum.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1097 on: June 12, 2014, 11:08:21 am »

I don't think this is right.  Hypothetical, Faust starts with 2 Badges, Xerxes starts with 2 Bandages.  Third one has whatever that is not Mag.  Night 1, Xerxes sends Bandage to Faust, Faust sends nothing.  Faust receives Mag, Xerxes receives (doesn't matter), third scum receives Mag.  Then on Night 2 scum has, at least, 2 Mag, 2 Badges and 1 Bandage. (Xerxes has been lynched.)  So they can make both powers, and Faust could still send a Magnifying Glass.

Who is the third scum then? Don't we have enough information to have a very short list of people on who that would be?

Someone that told the truth on sending to Sudgy Night 1.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1098 on: June 12, 2014, 11:10:05 am »

A Magnifying Glass, not a Privacy curtain.

Sudgy claimed to be Roleblocked and Receive the Potato before I claimed. 

There can be a scumteam capable of making both.  They need 2 Badges + Magnifying Glass + Bandage.  Remember, Xerxes didn't send an item Night 1, so he could send his initial item (Badge or Bandage) to his scum partner.  Also remember that scum are going to lie about what items they receive, and we know one lied about what items they initially had.
No there is not enough magnifying glasses around for both you (if town) and scum to receive one.

There are 3 glasses among Sudgy, Yuma, Ashersky, jimm and maybe Xerxes.

sudgy is town. yuma sent a item to sudgy, so he could not have sent one to either of you or scum. still waiting on pps on jimmm. Xerxes died before he could use it. Ashersky has to be scum, but he could not have sent it to both you and scum without you being scum.

Huh?  I don't follow what you said about Ash.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1099 on: June 12, 2014, 11:11:23 am »


I don't think this is right.  Hypothetical, Faust starts with 2 Badges, Xerxes starts with 2 Bandages.  Third one has whatever that is not Mag.  Night 1, Xerxes sends Bandage to Faust, Faust sends nothing.  Faust receives Mag, Xerxes receives (doesn't matter), third scum receives Mag.  Then on Night 2 scum has, at least, 2 Mag, 2 Badges and 1 Bandage. (Xerxes has been lynched.)  So they can make both powers, and Faust could still send a Magnifying Glass.

Ok, they could as far as we know.

Thats why we still need the rest to claim.
If two out of Yuma, Sudgy and Jimm had maginfying glasses, it is no longer possible.
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1100 on: June 12, 2014, 11:11:46 am »

Do I need to do anything...? see this is what I wanted from the start, clarity and an actual purpose. I don't see why there was a need to be so cryptic the whole time

Please claim the item you randomly received after N1. If it is a magnifying glass it will help prove Ash is scum.

I received a badge. I also received something else N1. Is that pertinent?
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1101 on: June 12, 2014, 11:12:09 am »

A Magnifying Glass, not a Privacy curtain.

Sudgy claimed to be Roleblocked and Receive the Potato before I claimed. 

There can be a scumteam capable of making both.  They need 2 Badges + Magnifying Glass + Bandage.  Remember, Xerxes didn't send an item Night 1, so he could send his initial item (Badge or Bandage) to his scum partner.  Also remember that scum are going to lie about what items they receive, and we know one lied about what items they initially had.
No there is not enough magnifying glasses around for both you (if town) and scum to receive one.

There are 3 glasses among Sudgy, Yuma, Ashersky, jimm and maybe Xerxes.

sudgy is town. yuma sent a item to sudgy, so he could not have sent one to either of you or scum. still waiting on pps on jimmm. Xerxes died before he could use it. Ashersky has to be scum, but he could not have sent it to both you and scum without you being scum.

Have we solved the nightmare scenario where sudgy's target is rolestopped? Or shown it to be 1% odds? If so, I am ready to vote WW.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1102 on: June 12, 2014, 11:12:24 am »

A Magnifying Glass, not a Privacy curtain.

Sudgy claimed to be Roleblocked and Receive the Potato before I claimed. 

There can be a scumteam capable of making both.  They need 2 Badges + Magnifying Glass + Bandage.  Remember, Xerxes didn't send an item Night 1, so he could send his initial item (Badge or Bandage) to his scum partner.  Also remember that scum are going to lie about what items they receive, and we know one lied about what items they initially had.
No there is not enough magnifying glasses around for both you (if town) and scum to receive one.

There are 3 glasses among Sudgy, Yuma, Ashersky, jimm and maybe Xerxes.

sudgy is town. yuma sent a item to sudgy, so he could not have sent one to either of you or scum. still waiting on pps on jimmm. Xerxes died before he could use it. Ashersky has to be scum, but he could not have sent it to both you and scum without you being scum.

Huh?  I don't follow what you said about Ash.

I am saying the magnifying glass scum used must come from Ash. So he must be scum.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1103 on: June 12, 2014, 11:12:44 am »

Someone can make Stealth and use it on someone else:

"Stealth: 1 shot invisible to tracker and follower, and 1-shot invisible to watcher and voyeur. Can be used on oneself or another player or one on each of two players. Must use both in the same night."

So they don't have to send the components to have the person using it make it.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1104 on: June 12, 2014, 11:14:22 am »

Do I need to do anything...? see this is what I wanted from the start, clarity and an actual purpose. I don't see why there was a need to be so cryptic the whole time

Please claim the item you randomly received after N1. If it is a magnifying glass it will help prove Ash is scum.

I received a badge. I also received something else N1. Is that pertinent?
You did? From sudgy?
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faust

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1105 on: June 12, 2014, 11:14:34 am »

what is the lie? talk to me like I am an idiot 5 year old

The cake is the lie!

...

Sorry, had to do it.
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1106 on: June 12, 2014, 11:15:19 am »

what is the lie? talk to me like I am an idiot 5 year old

The cake is the lie!

...

Sorry, had to do it.

Hey faust, you're here. Talk about stuff. You were almost lynched yesterday.
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yuma

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1107 on: June 12, 2014, 11:15:27 am »

Do I need to do anything...? see this is what I wanted from the start, clarity and an actual purpose. I don't see why there was a need to be so cryptic the whole time

Please claim the item you randomly received after N1. If it is a magnifying glass it will help prove Ash is scum.

I received a badge. I also received something else N1. Is that pertinent?
You did? From sudgy?

I don't know who it was from...
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1108 on: June 12, 2014, 11:16:24 am »

A Magnifying Glass, not a Privacy curtain.

Sudgy claimed to be Roleblocked and Receive the Potato before I claimed. 

There can be a scumteam capable of making both.  They need 2 Badges + Magnifying Glass + Bandage.  Remember, Xerxes didn't send an item Night 1, so he could send his initial item (Badge or Bandage) to his scum partner.  Also remember that scum are going to lie about what items they receive, and we know one lied about what items they initially had.
No there is not enough magnifying glasses around for both you (if town) and scum to receive one.

There are 3 glasses among Sudgy, Yuma, Ashersky, jimm and maybe Xerxes.

sudgy is town. yuma sent a item to sudgy, so he could not have sent one to either of you or scum. still waiting on pps on jimmm. Xerxes died before he could use it. Ashersky has to be scum, but he could not have sent it to both you and scum without you being scum.

Huh?  I don't follow what you said about Ash.

I am saying the magnifying glass scum used must come from Ash. So he must be scum.

I don't think this follows either.  Where are you getting this?
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faust

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1109 on: June 12, 2014, 11:18:12 am »

I think crazier than sending me one for town cred. 

Though maybe they initially planned to send for town cred and then realized it was much more opportune to make people think I'm lying?  That points back to Faust.  When he came back he was in the sole position to verify the validity.

Vote: Faust

I did indeed notice that faust posted a whole lot of nothing when he returned (from a non-theory POV).

xieron, don't disappear on me here. I'm far from convinced. Sell me on this.

This is a solvable setup. There's nothing to talk about except theory.
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faust

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1110 on: June 12, 2014, 11:19:01 am »

The setup being solvable is also why I'm not very invested in this anymore.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1111 on: June 12, 2014, 11:19:33 am »

A Magnifying Glass, not a Privacy curtain.

Sudgy claimed to be Roleblocked and Receive the Potato before I claimed. 

There can be a scumteam capable of making both.  They need 2 Badges + Magnifying Glass + Bandage.  Remember, Xerxes didn't send an item Night 1, so he could send his initial item (Badge or Bandage) to his scum partner.  Also remember that scum are going to lie about what items they receive, and we know one lied about what items they initially had.
No there is not enough magnifying glasses around for both you (if town) and scum to receive one.

There are 3 glasses among Sudgy, Yuma, Ashersky, jimm and maybe Xerxes.

sudgy is town. yuma sent a item to sudgy, so he could not have sent one to either of you or scum. still waiting on pps on jimmm. Xerxes died before he could use it. Ashersky has to be scum, but he could not have sent it to both you and scum without you being scum.

Huh?  I don't follow what you said about Ash.

I am saying the magnifying glass scum used must come from Ash. So he must be scum.

I don't think this follows either.  Where are you getting this?


N1 randon item:
Paper: Xeiron, Voltaire, Faust
Badge: pps, WW, yuma
Bandage: ADK, Xerxes(lie?)
Magnifying Glass: ?, ?, ?

? = (jimm, sudgy and ash)

From this.
Neither Jimm nor Sudgy could be mafia.
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1112 on: June 12, 2014, 11:20:25 am »

xeiron, if that's true, lynch ash, figure out WW/someone else tomorrow?
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1113 on: June 12, 2014, 11:20:31 am »

But there could be two liars in there.
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1114 on: June 12, 2014, 11:21:26 am »

Well, maybe only one liar.
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 1!
« Reply #1115 on: June 12, 2014, 11:23:42 am »

There's also the potato powers.  Subterfuge doesn't affect the plan, but bounce does.  So does Privacy Curtain.  So we'd need town to NOT make these items.

Scumslip? Bounce is a mafia-only power.

On another note, I think our IC should most definitely make a privacy curtain. But yeah, noone else probably.

vote: faust

Go look at the table dude.  4 bandages = town bounce.

You know who thinks it's just a mafia power?  The mafia guy who knows he can make it tonight.  I'd guess Faust and a partner have mag glasses And bandages.

btw, this is why I can't see a scum team of XP/ash/faust. It would mean that faust tunneled one of his partners (XP) while ash tunneled one of his partners (faust). Ash loves tunneling his partners to the point where it sometimes feels obvious, but for faust to do it too? And catch all three of them up in it?
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1116 on: June 12, 2014, 11:24:02 am »

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA I ACHIEVED NON-THEORY TALK

 ;D
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Witherweaver

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1117 on: June 12, 2014, 11:24:44 am »

In my hypothetical I was working with before, Faust gets Mag N1, Jimmm gets Paper, Faust sees that a Paper claim is missing and decides to claim that.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1118 on: June 12, 2014, 11:26:06 am »

In my hypothetical I was working with before, Faust gets Mag N1, Jimmm gets Paper, Faust sees that a Paper claim is missing and decides to claim that.

But pps knows what jimm has, so that will be outed soon.
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Voltaire

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1119 on: June 12, 2014, 11:26:41 am »

In my hypothetical I was working with before, Faust gets Mag N1, Jimmm gets Paper, Faust sees that a Paper claim is missing and decides to claim that.

I don't think Jimmmmm got paper. Any other options?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1120 on: June 12, 2014, 11:27:38 am »

Since you are only allowed one form of protection at a time, you WILL be informed if you own a fireproof and when it is used up.

Here's something I just noticed. Can we take this to mean fireproofs were handed out last night? Why else would EFHW clarify this, and nothing else, at the start of the day?

If this is true, some(town)one spent 1 Badge + 1 Bandage on it.

I think jimm did.
It is past time Pingpongsam comes and clears this up.

Yes, Jimmmmm fireproofed last night. My spy power would not let me see if items were sent anywhere, I made this clear earlier, I do not know if WW missed that or is being intentionally obtuse.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1121 on: June 12, 2014, 11:27:59 am »

So ash flipping scum clears me as town? Awesome, let's do that.

Vote: ash

Potato: WW
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1122 on: June 12, 2014, 11:29:11 am »

Since you are only allowed one form of protection at a time, you WILL be informed if you own a fireproof and when it is used up.

Here's something I just noticed. Can we take this to mean fireproofs were handed out last night? Why else would EFHW clarify this, and nothing else, at the start of the day?

If this is true, some(town)one spent 1 Badge + 1 Bandage on it.

I think jimm did.
It is past time Pingpongsam comes and clears this up.

Yes, Jimmmmm fireproofed last night. My spy power would not let me see if items were sent anywhere, I made this clear earlier, I do not know if WW missed that or is being intentionally obtuse.

I know it doesn't let you see items being sent.  What is that in regards to?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1123 on: June 12, 2014, 11:29:42 am »

I had missed that players would be informed they were fireproofed. Now that I know this I am far less hesitant to reveal what Jimmmmm did.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1124 on: June 12, 2014, 11:30:54 am »

I had missed that players would be informed they were fireproofed. Now that I know this I am far less hesitant to reveal what Jimmmmm did.

Wait, wouldn't you just be revealing who he fireproofed? Isn't that bad?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1125 on: June 12, 2014, 11:32:02 am »

I had missed that players would be informed they were fireproofed. Now that I know this I am far less hesitant to reveal what Jimmmmm did.

Wait, wouldn't you just be revealing who he fireproofed? Isn't that bad?

No, only the players fireproofed know because the mod told them. And Jimmmmm knows. I do not know the targets of the fireproofing.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1126 on: June 12, 2014, 11:32:53 am »

Since you are only allowed one form of protection at a time, you WILL be informed if you own a fireproof and when it is used up.

Here's something I just noticed. Can we take this to mean fireproofs were handed out last night? Why else would EFHW clarify this, and nothing else, at the start of the day?

If this is true, some(town)one spent 1 Badge + 1 Bandage on it.

I think jimm did.
It is past time Pingpongsam comes and clears this up.

Yes, Jimmmmm fireproofed last night. My spy power would not let me see if items were sent anywhere, I made this clear earlier, I do not know if WW missed that or is being intentionally obtuse.

I know it doesn't let you see items being sent.  What is that in regards to?

Apologies, it was voltaire who got it mixed up.

Here's the offending quote:
Obviously someone sent me them.  What I don't understand is why no one would claim to have.

OK, I see. What are the odds Jimmmmm sent them to you? I assume PPS can answer "yes" or "no" to this.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1127 on: June 12, 2014, 11:33:12 am »

Okay, so Jimmm got a Bandage on Night 1.  He started with Badges.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1128 on: June 12, 2014, 11:33:15 am »

I had missed that players would be informed they were fireproofed. Now that I know this I am far less hesitant to reveal what Jimmmmm did.

Wait, wouldn't you just be revealing who he fireproofed? Isn't that bad?

No, only the players fireproofed know because the mod told them. And Jimmmmm knows. I do not know the targets of the fireproofing.

Oh. Well then if you have more to reveal, I can only imagine it's helpful.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1129 on: June 12, 2014, 11:35:03 am »

xeiron, if that's true, lynch ash, figure out WW/someone else tomorrow?

Because WW might have bandages to interrupt the potato. Better lynch WW and potato Ash.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1130 on: June 12, 2014, 11:35:26 am »

Still, Xerxes partner can claim to have gotten what Xerxes got (since they would know this), and not their true item.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1131 on: June 12, 2014, 11:36:17 am »

xeiron, if that's true, lynch ash, figure out WW/someone else tomorrow?

Because WW might have bandages to interrupt the potato. Better lynch WW and potato Ash.

Why can't Ash have Bandages?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1132 on: June 12, 2014, 11:36:49 am »

Okay, so Jimmm got a Bandage on Night 1.  He started with Badges.

And this means XP lied about getting a bandage, right? So long as ADK is telling the truth?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1133 on: June 12, 2014, 11:37:47 am »

Okay, so Jimmm got a Bandage on Night 1.  He started with Badges.

And this means XP lied about getting a bandage, right? So long as ADK is telling the truth?

Yes.  And assuming PPS is telling the truth.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1134 on: June 12, 2014, 11:38:45 am »

Okay, so Jimmm got a Bandage on Night 1.  He started with Badges.

And this means XP lied about getting a bandage, right? So long as ADK is telling the truth?

Yes.  And assuming PPS is telling the truth.

I am willing to assume PPS is telling the truth.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1135 on: June 12, 2014, 11:38:49 am »

xeiron, if that's true, lynch ash, figure out WW/someone else tomorrow?

Because WW might have bandages to interrupt the potato. Better lynch WW and potato Ash.

Why can't Ash have Bandages?
Because he sent his letter, so he mest have had papers. I am assuming Sudgy was right is saying Ash really wrote them.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1136 on: June 12, 2014, 11:40:12 am »

... but everyone got an item Night1, and everyone got an item Night 2.  Those could have been Bandages.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1137 on: June 12, 2014, 11:41:42 am »

... but everyone got an item Night1, and everyone got an item Night 2.  Those could have been Bandages.

Haven't you been following how it's possible to reverse-engineer a lot of those items?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1138 on: June 12, 2014, 11:42:59 am »

... but everyone got an item Night1, and everyone got an item Night 2.  Those could have been Bandages.

Haven't you been following how it's possible to reverse-engineer a lot of those items?

Not the Night 2 ones.  No one has had a chance to use those.  And Ash didn't claim an action last night, so we don't know his Night 1 item.  Though under Xerion's assumption, Ash is scum and it was a Mag Glass.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1139 on: June 12, 2014, 11:44:50 am »

... but everyone got an item Night1, and everyone got an item Night 2.  Those could have been Bandages.
Ash must have sent that magnifying glass.

There is still one theory, though. Sudgy might have sent you that magnifying glass.
I do not believe that, but yumas recent claim gives me some doubt.

Or did you mean that you got fireproof N1, Yuma?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1140 on: June 12, 2014, 11:45:01 am »

... but everyone got an item Night1, and everyone got an item Night 2.  Those could have been Bandages.

Haven't you been following how it's possible to reverse-engineer a lot of those items?

Not the Night 2 ones.

OK, sure.

btw, I think if it's ash/WW WW is the Arsonist. Explains ash trying to take me down after him to save WW.

And the fact that WW is the one here fighting to save himself.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1141 on: June 12, 2014, 11:46:02 am »

At this point I think PPS and yuma should claim the additional things they know.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1142 on: June 12, 2014, 11:46:24 am »

... but everyone got an item Night1, and everyone got an item Night 2.  Those could have been Bandages.

Haven't you been following how it's possible to reverse-engineer a lot of those items?

Not the Night 2 ones.  No one has had a chance to use those.  And Ash didn't claim an action last night, so we don't know his Night 1 item.  Though under Xerion's assumption, Ash is scum and it was a Mag Glass.

You are right. I have not counted for the N2 ones. There is still more probability you have one.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1143 on: June 12, 2014, 12:04:42 pm »

... but everyone got an item Night1, and everyone got an item Night 2.  Those could have been Bandages.
Ash must have sent that magnifying glass.

There is still one theory, though. Sudgy might have sent you that magnifying glass.
I do not believe that, but yumas recent claim gives me some doubt.

Or did you mean that you got fireproof N1, Yuma?

I received a fireproof, yes.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1144 on: June 12, 2014, 12:06:58 pm »

I need to head out for many hours. I'm A-OK leaving my vote on ash. Will happily vote for WW, too.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1145 on: June 12, 2014, 12:08:34 pm »

I need to head out for many hours. I'm A-OK leaving my vote on ash. Will happily vote for WW, too.

And here I thought we were buddies :(
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1146 on: June 12, 2014, 12:09:04 pm »

(Blah blah, best friend sleeping with wife Ash drama, blah blah)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1147 on: June 12, 2014, 01:30:09 pm »

There is still one theory, though. Sudgy might have sent you that magnifying glass.

I have not sent anybody a magnifying glass.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1148 on: June 12, 2014, 01:30:18 pm »

There is still one theory, though. Sudgy might have sent you that magnifying glass.

I have not sent anybody a magnifying glass.

Or anything, for that matter.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1149 on: June 12, 2014, 01:48:48 pm »

... but everyone got an item Night1, and everyone got an item Night 2.  Those could have been Bandages.

Haven't you been following how it's possible to reverse-engineer a lot of those items?

Not the Night 2 ones.

OK, sure.

btw, I think if it's ash/WW WW is the Arsonist. Explains ash trying to take me down after him to save WW.

And the fact that WW is the one here fighting to save himself.

If I were the Arsonist I wouldn't lie at all; it's just way too risky.  With Xerxes gone, scum has no chance to win if the Arsonist is caught.  Certainly making a false claim would be way too dangerous since it would be guaranteed to come under scrutiny.  And what's the upside?  What benefit would it be for me as scum to say what I did?  To spread the idea that it's most likely that scum made Stealth last night?  This would be the worst scum move ever.
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xeiron

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1150 on: June 12, 2014, 01:54:31 pm »

There is still one theory, though. Sudgy might have sent you that magnifying glass.

I have not sent anybody a magnifying glass.

Or anything, for that matter.
Do you see anyway that Witherweaver and/or Ashersky could be town?

If not, I sugest lynching WW, bombing Ash and get done with the game.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1151 on: June 12, 2014, 01:56:31 pm »

There is still one theory, though. Sudgy might have sent you that magnifying glass.

I have not sent anybody a magnifying glass.

Or anything, for that matter.
Do you see anyway that Witherweaver and/or Ashersky could be town?

If not, I sugest lynching WW, bombing Ash and get done with the game.

I haven't been able to follow along with the theory that much.  If that means they're scum, then great.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1152 on: June 12, 2014, 02:01:36 pm »

xeiron could i trouble you to compile a stepwise deduction of how you came to this conclusion in one large post? everything seems really spread out atm and a consolidated info post would really help those of us late to the party... make it as large as you need just as long as we can all follow along
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1153 on: June 12, 2014, 02:10:24 pm »

I will. But first. Sudgy. am I correct you randomly received a magnifying glass N1?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1154 on: June 12, 2014, 02:15:10 pm »

I will. But first. Sudgy. am I correct you randomly received a magnifying glass N1?

Yes.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1155 on: June 12, 2014, 02:25:29 pm »

Sudgy, did jimmm use fireproof on you?
I think that would be the obvious target.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1156 on: June 12, 2014, 02:26:57 pm »

Sudgy, did jimmm use fireproof on you?
I think that would be the obvious target.

I got a fireproof last night, so that's probably where I got it.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1157 on: June 12, 2014, 02:28:18 pm »

Sudgy, did jimmm use fireproof on you?
I think that would be the obvious target.

I got a fireproof last night, so that's probably where I got it.

And WW, who watched you missed that.
More evidence he was not really watching.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1158 on: June 12, 2014, 02:35:08 pm »

Alright I know Xeiron is having fun playing Sherlock, and he is doing a good job---he's only gotten a couple of things wrong---but I don't think there is a point in dragging it out.

I agree with Faust when he said this setup is solvable.  It's only a matter of time.  I have a small chance to push a mislynch through today, but I'd just get lynched tomorrow. 

I had typed this up this morning and was just waiting for someone to put me to L-1:

\begin{previously_typed_suicide_note}
Quote
"Scum" is such a harsh word.  I prefer "morally challenged".

I wrote up a big silly thing last night for when I got caught (since I knew I would; the only question was whether it would be today or tomorrow).  But it's at home and I don't feel like rewriting it.

Funny story for why I made the claim, though.  But I'll wait until after the game is over to go through that as to not give anything away.

Vote: Witherweaver
\end{previously_typed_suicide_note}

Sorry if I'm cutting anyone's fun short, but I do get the impression that Town knows they've won and just wants to get on with it.  Today was pretty humorous from my perspective.. I'll talk about this once the game is over and you can know I'm telling the truth.  My play today probably looks pretty terrible (and it probably was), but I actually had reasons for everything~
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1159 on: June 12, 2014, 02:36:13 pm »

A update on the theory.

Deduction in bold

Starting items claimed:
Paper: Ash, WW, ADK
Badge: Jimmmmm, xeiron, ?
Bandage: PPS, (yuma), ?
Magnifying Glass: Voltaire, faust, Sudgy

Archetype takes the place of one of the underlined.
? = (scum (Xerxes), scum (one of the underlined)
This means one of the underlined must be scum, and must have a Badge or bandage as starting item.
Then there is one more scum who claimed truthfully


N1 Actions:
Sudgy did something (and was not blocked)
pps made privacy curtain (1 bandage)
Ash sent a letter. (one paper)
Note that there is nobody that roleblocked sudgy that indicate scum did not start with a magnifying glass.

Bomb chains:
N1: Mafia -> sudgy -> PPS -> Archetype
N2: Mafia -> sudgy -> PPS -> Jimmmmm


N1 random item:
Paper: Xeiron, Voltaire, Faust
Badge: pps, WW, yuma
Bandage: ADK, Jimmmmm
Magnifying Glass: Sudgy, ?, ?

?? = xerxes, Ash

Mafia started (almost certainly) with no Magnifying glass. They used one to roleblock N2, so there must be (at least) one mafia among the persons who got magnifying glasses randomly D1
Xerxes does not count as he died before he could use or send it.

N2 Item sending:
- yuma sent an item to sudgy  - 1
- sudgy received a item           - 1
- Yuma received an item         - 2
- ADK sent Bandages to yuma  - 2
- xeiron sent a Badge to PPS    - 3
- PPS received a Badge            - 3
- WW received a Magnifying Glass - 4
- Voltaire did not send nor receive items

The claims does not match up. WW claimed to receive a MG. No-one claimed to send it.

N2 Actions:
- sudgy was roleblocked
- PPS spied Jimmmmm (1 Badge)
- ADK didn't use a night action
- WW used Binoculars on sudgy (watched) and xeiron (voyeur'd) (1 Magnifying Glass, 1 Badge)
- xeiron did not use a night action
- Voltaire used Telescope on yuma (followed) and PPS (tracked) (1 Magnifying Glass, 1 Paper)
- Jimmmmm did something

We know that mafia used (1 Magnifying Glass, 1 Badge) for dazzling light
If WW is town, they also used stealth.
WW had acces to 1 Magnifying Glass, 1 Badge
No-one had acces to 1 Magnifying Glass, 2 Badges, 1 bandage (roleblock + stealth.)


What items people have now, assuming no further night actions:

ashersky: 1 random item
WW: 1 paper
ADK: 1 paper
xeiron: 1 paper
PPS: 1 badge
yuma: 2 bandages
Voltaire: no item
faust: 1 Magnifying Glass, 1 paper
sudgy: lots of stuff



Ashersky must be scum because he is the only one who could have gotten a magnifying glass for the scumteam to make a roleblocker.
WW is scum because he could not have gotten the magnifying glass he claimed to recieve unless from scum. He claimed to watch Sudgy, but did not see the bomb sending, the roleblocking or the fireproof from jimmm. The first two could be explained by stealth, but not the last.

Conclution: Ash and WW are scum.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1160 on: June 12, 2014, 02:41:17 pm »

WW is confirmed scum now, and with xeiron's reasons (and an actual scumread on him) I think ash is the other scum as well.  Because I am going V/LA soon, I suggest we hurry up and get on with it.  Vote: Witherweaver

We are potatoing ash.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1161 on: June 12, 2014, 02:41:50 pm »

Well you're missing the basic idea that scum knows what Xerxes received Night 1, so would know that item is safe to claim to have received Night 1. 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1162 on: June 12, 2014, 02:43:04 pm »

vote: witherweaver
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1163 on: June 12, 2014, 02:43:42 pm »

I'm also surprised that Sudgy was Fireproofed last night, because wouldn't you have Fireproofed yourself on Night 1?  So how could it take?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1164 on: June 12, 2014, 02:44:40 pm »

I'm also surprised that Sudgy was Fireproofed last night, because wouldn't you have Fireproofed yourself on Night 1?  So how could it take?

I have two fireproofs now.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1165 on: June 12, 2014, 02:45:13 pm »

I'm also surprised that Sudgy was Fireproofed last night, because wouldn't you have Fireproofed yourself on Night 1?  So how could it take?

I have two fireproofs now.

No way they stack.  That's, like.. it's impossible for scum to kill people!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1166 on: June 12, 2014, 02:46:19 pm »

Well you're missing the basic idea that scum knows what Xerxes received Night 1, so would know that item is safe to claim to have received Night 1.

I saw you said that. I actually thought that did not (that you recieved your item in private after the scumthread is locked). But when you said scum do know, that is actually evidence on you.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1167 on: June 12, 2014, 02:46:58 pm »

WW, are you the Arsonist?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1168 on: June 12, 2014, 02:47:05 pm »

I'm also surprised that Sudgy was Fireproofed last night, because wouldn't you have Fireproofed yourself on Night 1?  So how could it take?

I have two fireproofs now.

No way they stack.  That's, like.. it's impossible for scum to kill people!

I would quote EFHW if I could.  You could still potato me (that's why EFHW said you can't have multiple types of protection, because I was moving towards being invincible).
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1169 on: June 12, 2014, 02:47:49 pm »

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1170 on: June 12, 2014, 02:48:43 pm »

I'm also surprised that Sudgy was Fireproofed last night, because wouldn't you have Fireproofed yourself on Night 1?  So how could it take?

I have two fireproofs now.

No way they stack.  That's, like.. it's impossible for scum to kill people!

I would quote EFHW if I could.  You could still potato me (that's why EFHW said you can't have multiple types of protection, because I was moving towards being invincible).

Yeah, but still.. that requires that we send a Potato to you, someone sends it to us (not the one that first sent it), and we send it back to you.

Plus we don't know if you're Fireproof or Privacy Curtain, so big risk. 

You're essentially unkillable.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1171 on: June 12, 2014, 02:49:39 pm »

Oh, and of course you can simply be Watched~.  So anything after Night 1 has to be done through Stealth.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1172 on: June 12, 2014, 02:51:13 pm »

WW, are you the Arsonist?

Yeppers

Huzzah!

And my gut read on ash seems to have triumphed, again.

Man, I'm really sorry you're always scum, WW!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1173 on: June 12, 2014, 02:51:34 pm »

lets just move on...

vote: ww

this setup was awful for scum. Open setups are really, really hard to design for RMM. I appreciate the effort to do so here, but I for one will not be playing in any other open setup that is designated as RMM... too hard to create a game that cannot be broken. Even if the best mod thinks they have looked over everything there is going to be something that they miss that town can exploit.

RMM should be closed or at the very least semi-closed. I know that arch and xerxes have some open RMM setups coming up. I would strongly urge you and other to reconsider and make them closed.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1174 on: June 12, 2014, 02:53:32 pm »

Can we save time and out the last member?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1175 on: June 12, 2014, 02:54:51 pm »

Can we save time and out the last member?

I'm all for it. Unless it really is yuma, and you're talking to him, we seem to have decided it's ash. Unless you're saying it's not ash, and your partner will be caught via solving tomorrow.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1176 on: June 12, 2014, 02:54:59 pm »

sure... just white flag it
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1177 on: June 12, 2014, 02:55:27 pm »

I do agree that this scum was between a rock and a hard place in this setup.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1178 on: June 12, 2014, 02:55:32 pm »

it ain't me. I would have white flagged a long time ago.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1179 on: June 12, 2014, 02:55:49 pm »

I think the setup would be fine without a IC.

But the combination of a IC, easy protections and the possibility to send everything to the IC and have that person do all the night actions really makes it hard for scum.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1180 on: June 12, 2014, 02:56:19 pm »

Actually I suppose I shouldn't.  We specifically asked EFHW for a white flag and she said to play the game to completion.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1181 on: June 12, 2014, 02:57:51 pm »

I might as well share that I was Jimmmmm's other fireproof N2. Honored to have been town-read, Jimmmmm!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1182 on: June 12, 2014, 02:58:37 pm »

When then how was Yuma fireproofed?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1183 on: June 12, 2014, 02:59:32 pm »

And I should say that I don't fault EFHW for the setup. I think it was a very valiant attempt to create something pretty cool, and was probably pretty close to succeeding.

I have tried multiple times to create a complex, open RMM setup and I am sure it can be done. But if you create something that is complex enough to be fun and cool, chances are that you will not be able to look over every possible way that the game could be broken or "solved" or whatever.... At least not in the way that 13 people looking it over will be able to analyze it.

Having it closed prevents that sort of group think that breaks setups and provides a closed door and a safety latch. You don't have to be as thorough with a closed setup. So I think all RMM should be more or less closed from here on out... although I am not an overseer here or anything, just that I personally probably won't be playing in completely open RMM setups. There are different levels of this (Jim's Dice is semi-open yes? and probably ok???)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1184 on: June 12, 2014, 03:00:07 pm »

When then how was Yuma fireproofed?

That was me.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1185 on: June 12, 2014, 03:00:32 pm »

When then how was Yuma fireproofed?

That was me.

No, you were Roleblocked!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1186 on: June 12, 2014, 03:00:36 pm »

Actually I suppose I shouldn't.  We specifically asked EFHW for a white flag and she said to play the game to completion.

Do what you want to do... if the game is over, the game is over.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1187 on: June 12, 2014, 03:01:30 pm »

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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1188 on: June 12, 2014, 03:02:11 pm »

When then how was Yuma fireproofed?

That was me.

No, you were Roleblocked!

On N1.

Oh.. I thought Yuma claimed to receive Fireproof on Night 2.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1189 on: June 12, 2014, 03:05:15 pm »

At this point I think PPS and yuma should claim the additional things they know.

The only information I have withheld at this point is what item I received last night. Also, I am 2 pages behind and just catching up.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1190 on: June 12, 2014, 03:06:04 pm »

At this point I think PPS and yuma should claim the additional things they know.

The only information I have withheld at this point is what item I received last night. Also, I am 2 pages behind and just catching up.

We pretty much won now.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1191 on: June 12, 2014, 03:09:44 pm »

Yeah, okay. I thought it was clear WW was scum without the confession. 2nd scum hasn't outed himself, though.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1192 on: June 12, 2014, 03:10:07 pm »

So yeah.. if I could stop being scum in Mafia games, that'd be great.

For those keeping track, 1 Town (HoC) immediately followed by WoT, XMen, Monsters Inc., Greater Idea, and this is 5 scum games in a row! 
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1193 on: June 12, 2014, 03:11:13 pm »

Also, I agree that open setup RMM is bad business. I like the item passing and I really like being able to expend a low grade power each night or save for stronger ones. That it was open was the design failure here.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1194 on: June 12, 2014, 03:11:44 pm »

So yeah.. if I could stop being scum in Mafia games, that'd be great.

For those keeping track, 1 Town (HoC) immediately followed by WoT, XMen, Monsters Inc., Greater Idea, and this is 5 scum games in a row!

It reminds me of when PPS had been scum a whole bunch, then in a game I was modding he got town.  He told me how happy he was that he wasn't scum.  Something happened, the setup had to get rerolled, and he was scum.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1195 on: June 12, 2014, 03:12:03 pm »

I should note my strategy from the get go was to use a low grade power each night.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1196 on: June 12, 2014, 03:12:20 pm »

So yeah.. if I could stop being scum in Mafia games, that'd be great.

For those keeping track, 1 Town (HoC) immediately followed by WoT, XMen, Monsters Inc., Greater Idea, and this is 5 scum games in a row!

It reminds me of when PPS had been scum a whole bunch, then in a game I was modding he got town.  He told me how happy he was that he wasn't scum.  Something happened, the setup had to get rerolled, and he was scum.

Haha, yep.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1197 on: June 12, 2014, 03:12:43 pm »

Also, I agree that open setup RMM is bad business. I like the item passing and I really like being able to expend a low grade power each night or save for stronger ones. That it was open was the design failure here.

Save for stronger ones?

I got a stronger one N1...
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1198 on: June 12, 2014, 03:25:42 pm »

No!  WW is lying!

The all-knowing faultless Xeiron says I am scum!  It must be so!

Voltaire is my partner.

The issue here is that faulty logic ended up "catching" scum, and it just adds to the misconception that Xeiron knows what he's doing.

But he has my items wrong because UNLESS HE IS THE MOD HE CANNOT KNOW MY ITEMS.  I really, really want to be the lynch today.  I want it more than anything I've ever wanted in a mafia game.

Please, it is important.  Vote for ashersky.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - Day 3!
« Reply #1199 on: June 12, 2014, 03:27:35 pm »

Final Vote Count Day 3

ashersky (3): Voltaire, ashersky, faust
Witherweaver (5): xeiron, pingpongsam, sudgy, Voltaire, yuma

not voting (1): A Drowned Kernel

With 9 alive, it took 5 to lynch

Witherweaver was the Mafia Arsonist

Potato orders in 6 hours, items in 24, all others in 48.  Day 4 Start Saturday 3 pm.  That's a shorter night than previously.

THREAD LOCKED

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1200 on: June 14, 2014, 05:19:56 pm »

The detectives of Wikiville came to work the next morning full of energy and purpose, their recent successes filling them with confidence.  "Look out ashersky!" said xeiron, "Here we come!"  They were all therefore flummoxed upon entering headquarters to see Chief Detective sudgy handcuffing faust and leading him away.  "Huh?" said yuma.  "He confessed!" said sudgy.  "faust was the last Mafia Goon!  The town of Wikiville is now mafia-free!"

TOWN WINS!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1201 on: June 14, 2014, 05:23:10 pm »

OK then...ash, um, um, um...the obvious question? What were you doing?

My reads were total crap this game. Complete, total crap.

It's unclear to me, did we bomb faust, or did faust white-flag?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1202 on: June 14, 2014, 05:35:51 pm »

faust conceded.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1203 on: June 14, 2014, 07:16:09 pm »

I was right about Faust and the scumslip from the very beginning!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1204 on: June 14, 2014, 07:16:55 pm »

Xeiron, you were utterly wrong about me in every way.  Items, actions, alignment.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1205 on: June 14, 2014, 07:17:23 pm »

Volt, clearly we can't read each other at all.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1206 on: June 14, 2014, 07:17:34 pm »

I was right about Faust and the scumslip from the very beginning!

FTFY
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1207 on: June 14, 2014, 07:18:48 pm »

I was right about Faust and the scumslip from the very beginning!

FTFY

He was scum, he said something that gave him away.  I had nothing else to go on.  For me, that's a slip.

Unless Faust did it on purpose?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1208 on: June 14, 2014, 07:20:35 pm »

Volt, clearly we can't read each other at all.

It's really hard to do when you're posting that you're scum and I'm your partner.  ???

Of course I must tip my cap that you were right about faust.

What was with your final post at the end of the day? Were you trying to draw a night action or something?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1209 on: June 14, 2014, 07:21:42 pm »

I was right about Faust and the scumslip from the very beginning!

FTFY

He was scum, he said something that gave him away.  I had nothing else to go on.  For me, that's a slip.

Unless Faust did it on purpose?

I highly doubt he did it on purpose. But I also highly doubt he did it completely because of his alignment. It is something that I could have easily done. When I first read his post I agreed with it and thought that was the way the game was because I as well hadn't fully analyzed or understood the rules. Doesn't mean I was scum and it didn't mean he was scum. He ended up being scum, but that doesn't mean that everything he did was impacted by his alignment.

But we have had this conversation before.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1210 on: June 14, 2014, 07:26:23 pm »

Volt, clearly we can't read each other at all.

It's really hard to do when you're posting that you're scum and I'm your partner.  ???

Of course I must tip my cap that you were right about faust.

What was with your final post at the end of the day? Were you trying to draw a night action or something?

I was just incredibly frustrated with the way the day was going, and I felt Xeiron was leading everyone off a cliff like so many lemmings.  I preferred to be lynched to hopefully stop that from happening.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1211 on: June 14, 2014, 07:28:10 pm »

I was right about Faust and the scumslip from the very beginning!

FTFY

He was scum, he said something that gave him away.  I had nothing else to go on.  For me, that's a slip.

Unless Faust did it on purpose?

I highly doubt he did it on purpose. But I also highly doubt he did it completely because of his alignment. It is something that I could have easily done. When I first read his post I agreed with it and thought that was the way the game was because I as well hadn't fully analyzed or understood the rules. Doesn't mean I was scum and it didn't mean he was scum. He ended up being scum, but that doesn't mean that everything he did was impacted by his alignment.

But we have had this conversation before.

Yes we have.  Regardless, shoulda listened to me.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1212 on: June 14, 2014, 07:29:46 pm »

Volt, clearly we can't read each other at all.

It's really hard to do when you're posting that you're scum and I'm your partner.  ???

Of course I must tip my cap that you were right about faust.

What was with your final post at the end of the day? Were you trying to draw a night action or something?

I was just incredibly frustrated with the way the day was going, and I felt Xeiron was leading everyone off a cliff like so many lemmings.  I preferred to be lynched to hopefully stop that from happening.

If he was getting stuff wrong about you, that actually does make sense. Good to know!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1213 on: June 14, 2014, 07:30:04 pm »

I was just incredibly frustrated with the way the day was going, and I felt Xeiron was leading everyone off a cliff like so many lemmings.  I preferred to be lynched to hopefully stop that from happening.

Plus that was zero fun for anyone who wasn't named xeiron... man, you can't do all the work by yourself. For one you end up wrong and two you alienate (except for Voltaire your homeboy :) ) the rest of town that you will need to support you. We ended up winning because scum was doomed at that point, but if things were a bit more sketchy we could have been in some big trouble.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1214 on: June 14, 2014, 07:32:20 pm »

Oh man. It just occurred to me that faust was the wagon we started the day with. Only to switch to WW.

Wow.

(never mind me, just processing things very slowly today over here)
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1215 on: June 14, 2014, 07:32:58 pm »

Thanks to EFHW for attempting the very difficult open-RMM concept!  Must be doable, but it's hard!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1216 on: June 14, 2014, 07:35:40 pm »

Thanks to EFHW for attempting the very difficult open-RMM concept!  Must be doable, but it's hard!

Yes, I probably over-stated my desire to not see open-RMM setups. I do think they are possible, but I do think they need to be very thoroughly vetted before (both by mods and by players pre-game) and if a mod isn't willing to go through that process then I would suggest making it closed.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1217 on: June 14, 2014, 07:49:54 pm »

Thanks to EFHW for attempting the very difficult open-RMM concept!  Must be doable, but it's hard!

Yes, I probably over-stated my desire to not see open-RMM setups. I do think they are possible, but I do think they need to be very thoroughly vetted before (both by mods and by players pre-game) and if a mod isn't willing to go through that process then I would suggest making it closed.

The IC was the main problem.  I should have made the IC unable to make powers.  I wanted there to be more negotiation between players about sending items.   I also wanted the hot potato be a kind of crowd-sourced scum-hunting.  But people kept holding onto it, so it never bounced around very much. 

Thanks for trying it.  Another goal was for everyone to feel like they had things to do at night, and I think that worked. 

Why does everyone get so upset when a game is solvable?  We try to solve games all the time, and then when you can, no one likes it.  Very confusing to me.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1218 on: June 14, 2014, 07:51:37 pm »

Thanks to EFHW for attempting the very difficult open-RMM concept!  Must be doable, but it's hard!

Yes, I probably over-stated my desire to not see open-RMM setups. I do think they are possible, but I do think they need to be very thoroughly vetted before (both by mods and by players pre-game) and if a mod isn't willing to go through that process then I would suggest making it closed.

The IC was the main problem.  I should have made the IC unable to make powers.  I wanted there to be more negotiation between players about sending items.   I also wanted the hot potato be a kind of crowd-sourced scum-hunting.  But people kept holding onto it, so it never bounced around very much. 

Thanks for trying it.  Another goal was for everyone to feel like they had things to do at night, and I think that worked. 

Why does everyone get so upset when a game is solvable?  We try to solve games all the time, and then when you can, no one likes it.  Very confusing to me.

I think, in this case, it was too solvable.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1220 on: June 14, 2014, 07:52:33 pm »

Would this game have been completely fine if there were no IC? That's my thinking...?
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1221 on: June 14, 2014, 07:52:41 pm »

Thanks to EFHW for attempting the very difficult open-RMM concept!  Must be doable, but it's hard!

Yes, I probably over-stated my desire to not see open-RMM setups. I do think they are possible, but I do think they need to be very thoroughly vetted before (both by mods and by players pre-game) and if a mod isn't willing to go through that process then I would suggest making it closed.

The IC was the main problem.  I should have made the IC unable to make powers.  I wanted there to be more negotiation between players about sending items.   I also wanted the hot potato be a kind of crowd-sourced scum-hunting.  But people kept holding onto it, so it never bounced around very much. 

Thanks for trying it.  Another goal was for everyone to feel like they had things to do at night, and I think that worked. 

Why does everyone get so upset when a game is solvable?  We try to solve games all the time, and then when you can, no one likes it.  Very confusing to me.

I think, in this case, it was too solvable.

I don't know.  You didn't actually solve it!
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1222 on: June 14, 2014, 07:57:06 pm »

Thanks to EFHW for attempting the very difficult open-RMM concept!  Must be doable, but it's hard!

Yes, I probably over-stated my desire to not see open-RMM setups. I do think they are possible, but I do think they need to be very thoroughly vetted before (both by mods and by players pre-game) and if a mod isn't willing to go through that process then I would suggest making it closed.

The IC was the main problem.  I should have made the IC unable to make powers.  I wanted there to be more negotiation between players about sending items.   I also wanted the hot potato be a kind of crowd-sourced scum-hunting.  But people kept holding onto it, so it never bounced around very much. 

Thanks for trying it.  Another goal was for everyone to feel like they had things to do at night, and I think that worked. 

Why does everyone get so upset when a game is solvable?  We try to solve games all the time, and then when you can, no one likes it.  Very confusing to me.

I think, in this case, it was too solvable.

I don't know.  You didn't actually solve it!

I'm not the type of guy who solves setups (I'm happy for others to though).
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1223 on: June 14, 2014, 07:57:16 pm »

Thanks to EFHW for attempting the very difficult open-RMM concept!  Must be doable, but it's hard!

Yes, I probably over-stated my desire to not see open-RMM setups. I do think they are possible, but I do think they need to be very thoroughly vetted before (both by mods and by players pre-game) and if a mod isn't willing to go through that process then I would suggest making it closed.

The IC was the main problem.  I should have made the IC unable to make powers.  I wanted there to be more negotiation between players about sending items.   I also wanted the hot potato be a kind of crowd-sourced scum-hunting.  But people kept holding onto it, so it never bounced around very much. 

Thanks for trying it.  Another goal was for everyone to feel like they had things to do at night, and I think that worked. 

Why does everyone get so upset when a game is solvable?  We try to solve games all the time, and then when you can, no one likes it.  Very confusing to me.

I think, in this case, it was too solvable.

I don't know.  You didn't actually solve it!

I'm not the type of guy who solves setups (I'm happy for others to though).

Oh, you're saying all of us :P
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1224 on: June 14, 2014, 07:57:54 pm »

Solveable isn't the right word. Because as you say, we didn't solve it. But instead I believe that scum was extremely restricted in what they could do with actions because town had created a system that either forced their hand or caught them out if they didn't participate leaving them either stunted in regard to what they could do--and thus at a disadvantage--or completely caught out in the open.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1225 on: June 14, 2014, 09:04:35 pm »

This what was I posted in Mafia QT and redacted, by the way:

Quote
Well I agree that it wasn't entirely the setup.. I think once we made a bad choice, our options became very limited, and once we made a couple more mistakes, it was basically game over.

One thought: Daychat for Mafia in this setup might be really valuable.. to organize things like claims as they happen.

Also, while I'm posting here, sorry about the way the last day went, Faust. Once Voltaire claimed he had a result and asked everyone to claim, I felt pretty cornered. I was pretty sure he had Watched Sudgy. So I had to admit to targeting him. I could have said nothing, but I was pretty sure people would pick up on that, since I'm usually a very active poster.. I waited a while, but I didn't feel I could wait more.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1226 on: June 14, 2014, 09:06:57 pm »

So yeah, the funny thing was that it was Voltaire that caught me (along with me making a bad choice).

We knew that if anyone tracked us, we were dead in the water.  So I did the potato, and the priming with no stealth, as I wasn't likely to be a tracking target.  But if anyone Watched Sudgy, I'd be screwed.  So when Voltaire came out saying that he has an investigation result and wants everyone to claim, I don't know if he Watched or Targeted, but I had a feeling he knew people had targeted Sudgy.  So I felt that I had to admit it.  And the only thing that made any sense was the dumb story I came up with.  (Since there was an announcement that you would be informed when you had protection, I couldn't claim to have protected.)

FYI, I had sent the bomb to Sudgy and Primed Xeiron.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1227 on: June 14, 2014, 09:09:03 pm »

Volt, clearly we can't read each other at all.

It's really hard to do when you're posting that you're scum and I'm your partner.  ???

Of course I must tip my cap that you were right about faust.

What was with your final post at the end of the day? Were you trying to draw a night action or something?

I was just incredibly frustrated with the way the day was going, and I felt Xeiron was leading everyone off a cliff like so many lemmings.  I preferred to be lynched to hopefully stop that from happening.

Xeiron wasn't completely correct, but I feel the way he was going about thing was the right method.  Even if his conclusion about you was wrong, your alignment flipping would have let him correct, I think.  I believe with this game item tracking is the way to go.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1228 on: June 14, 2014, 10:01:25 pm »

I am amazed to learn that I basically tripped and fell and somehow managed to still hit my target in the process. The one I wasn't even aiming at.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1229 on: June 14, 2014, 10:05:04 pm »

I am amazed to learn that I basically tripped and fell and somehow managed to still hit my target in the process. The one I wasn't even aiming at.

The funnier part was that everyone was talking about how your claim didn't give any info and thought you were scummy for it, when really it prompted me to hang myself.

I probably should have said nothing, though.. but it would look really bad for me to just shut up all of the sudden.. and I could have claimed to target no one, but that seemed like just as equal a risk, except that I had no chance of wriggling out of that claim if I was countered.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1230 on: June 14, 2014, 10:06:47 pm »

I guess the moral of the story is, delayed reveals can be pro-town and we probably don't use them often enough.

For a far better example, see Jimmmmm's delayed cop result on ash in Chocolate Factory.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1231 on: June 14, 2014, 10:13:45 pm »

I am amazed to learn that I basically tripped and fell and somehow managed to still hit my target in the process. The one I wasn't even aiming at.

The funnier part was that everyone was talking about how your claim didn't give any info and thought you were scummy for it, when really it prompted me to hang myself.

That was just ash.  That is the power of ash.
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1232 on: June 14, 2014, 10:36:14 pm »

I feel I played a great game. I feel I managed to actually represent myself as Town and I correctly read the scum teams without over committing to those reads. I don't think I could have performed my night actions any better. I am really impressed at the townies who held the potato each night, I don't think the game would have went so well otherwise.

As for the setup, I believe the IC was overkill. I loved the item passing. I would have preferred the potato strategy talk be disallowed.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1233 on: June 14, 2014, 10:49:45 pm »

I'll say again, scum daychat would be very useful in this setup.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1234 on: June 15, 2014, 08:53:51 am »

Besides everything that has already been said, I think there was also too much information flying around. Things would have been easier if items were distributed randomly, and the number of items of one kind wasn't known.

Plus, I think too many investigative roles. If town gets three magnifying glasses per night, that's a chance of three investigations per night, theoretically forcing scum to stealth every action they had.

Another problem is when scum can't act like town. In a normal game, you can always decide not to kill and play exactly as town would; that's just not possible here, because some items town can make, scum can't.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1235 on: June 15, 2014, 04:06:45 pm »

I really did not understand why I got bussed so hard. Daychat would have been great.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1236 on: June 15, 2014, 04:42:27 pm »

I really did not understand why I got bussed so hard. Daychat would have been great.

I kind of didn't know what I was doing.  I was just going along trying to figure out the setup and seeing where that would go, I guess because that's what I would have done as town.  Once it was pointed out that the initial items were distributed evenly with everyone having two of something (which I initially missed), it became clear that your item claim couldn't be true.  So I pointed it out because, well, that's when it occurred to me and a lot of the times I just post what I think.  And then I just had to keep going with it.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1237 on: June 16, 2014, 05:01:29 am »

Makes sense. I wasn't lying about my items, though.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1238 on: June 16, 2014, 08:12:27 am »

Makes sense. I wasn't lying about my items, though.

You didn't have 2 Paper.
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Re: RMM15: Innovation II - TOWN WINS!
« Reply #1239 on: June 16, 2014, 09:34:24 am »

I am really suprised Ashersky was town. I found him scummy pretty much the whole game and I probably let that read cloud my judgement too much while trying to figure out the setup.
It really proves that the game was not so solvable after all.

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