Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Witherweaver]

Right, my main concern was with us losing the flip information compared to regular Mafia.  I think you're right here.  However, fireproof only protects against priming, right?  If someone gets primed, and then fireproofed, and the exploded, they still die?  So we need to get fireproofs out early.

I'm not sure about this, I though fireproof protected against previous priming. Can mod confirm?

Fireproofs only protect against priming.  Previously primed players would not be protected.

Okay, so if we're using the controlled bomb method, we want to fireproof the IC tonight?  From the resolution post, "Protect: Stealth, Firefighter" executes before "Prime/Ignite/Accelerant".  Sending items happens before all that.

Can Firefighter target themselves with protection?

If I'm reading everything properly, I think it's not possible to protect me from being primed tonight, sadly.

Somebody definitely double-check that for me, though.

Why not?  If you can do it yourself, we send you the items to do it.  If not, we send to someone else.  Item sending resolves at 24 hours.  Then at the 72-hour resolution, that person makes Firefighter and targets you.  It should resolve before the priming (assuming list goes from top to bottom in order resolution).

[chairs]

Right, my main concern was with us losing the flip information compared to regular Mafia.  I think you're right here.  However, fireproof only protects against priming, right?  If someone gets primed, and then fireproofed, and the exploded, they still die?  So we need to get fireproofs out early.

I'm not sure about this, I though fireproof protected against previous priming. Can mod confirm?

Fireproofs only protect against priming.  Previously primed players would not be protected.

Okay, so if we're using the controlled bomb method, we want to fireproof the IC tonight?  From the resolution post, "Protect: Stealth, Firefighter" executes before "Prime/Ignite/Accelerant".  Sending items happens before all that.

Can Firefighter target themselves with protection?

If I'm reading everything properly, I think it's not possible to protect me from being primed tonight, sadly.

Somebody definitely double-check that for me, though.

Why not?  If you can do it yourself, we send you the items to do it.  If not, we send to someone else.  Item sending resolves at 24 hours.  Then at the 72-hour resolution, that person makes Firefighter and targets you.  It should resolve before the priming (assuming list goes from top to bottom in order resolution).

I thought Firefighter couldn't be used the same night you made it (in other words, my understanding was that you couldn't use the fireproofing until N2).  That's why I wanted somebody to double-check my read here

[Witherweaver]

Did you see this somewhere?  I assumed since "make powers" was ahead of their use, you could use them that night. 

Found:

"At any time during the rest of the night up until 2 hours before deadline, each player may build and use one or more powers according to the items they possess. Players may make up to as many powers in one night as their items will allow, or make none. Powers may be used immediately or saved for later (with the exceptions of Embezzler, which must be used in the first 24 hours of night, and passive powers, which go into effect immediately). All orders end 2 hours before deadline. "

So it sounds like you make it and you can choose to use it right away or save it.  I didn't see Firefighter excluded.

[chairs]

Did you see this somewhere?  I assumed since "make powers" was ahead of their use, you could use them that night. 

Found:

"At any time during the rest of the night up until 2 hours before deadline, each player may build and use one or more powers according to the items they possess. Players may make up to as many powers in one night as their items will allow, or make none. Powers may be used immediately or saved for later (with the exceptions of Embezzler, which must be used in the first 24 hours of night, and passive powers, which go into effect immediately). All orders end 2 hours before deadline. "

So it sounds like you make it and you can choose to use it right away or save it.  I didn't see Firefighter excluded.

Agreed, this is why I asked somebody to check me.  I was clearly wrong (thank goodness!)

[pingpongsam]

Vote: faust

Vote: ADK

Vote: faust

?

Call it a vote for faust and a FOS for ADK.

I'm voting faust for the same reasons as ashersky and xeiron. I think ADK's reaction to faust getting this kind of attention looks like a possible partner.

Could you please state these reasons explicitly?

Your 1st post in this foray proposes an alternate plan that presupposes that we create what amounts to a 2nd IC. Getting Mafia installed into this position would be the obvious route to victory.

Some worthy Analysis follows albeit of the most obvious kind. Best to put that stuff out there to garner a Townish image.

Then you vote the guy who is actually putting down a plan that has controversial merit requiring true collaboration to refine that would provide valuable clues on alignments. That is, not one so easily manipulated as your plan which smells fresh baked from the N0 Mafia QT.

Call the guy you just voted into question with a completely baseless scumslip allegation. Also, suggest Town not do one of the easiest things they can do to curtail Mafia's ability to plop a potato explosion on them. Personally, I am not opposed to the spirit of this idea but I don't see the point in playing director, either.

Finally, I agree that Mafia doesn't need to study the table nearly as closely as Town. You flat out missed what Town could achieve but were quite aware of what Mafia could do.

[pingpongsam]

So, who made something last night?

[Witherweaver]

So, who made something last night?

Were we able to?

[A Drowned Kernel]

The other thing we might lose following ash's plan is the ability to analyze the path of the bomb. If we agree to have town just pass the bomb to whoever (i.e. our own scumreads) then we can have everyone claim the next day, and maybe get information on that? It probably doesn't outweigh the benefits of the plan but it's a thought.

@PPS: So what does any of that have to do with me?

[pingpongsam]

@PPS: So what does any of that have to do with me?

Seemed timed too coincidentally where you say you like both plans but let's make sure to do that thing where we make sure we lynch D1 and that other thing to directly control the game.

[A Drowned Kernel]

@PPS: So what does any of that have to do with me?

Seemed timed too coincidentally where you say you like both plans but let's make sure to do that thing where we make sure we lynch D1 and that other thing to directly control the game.

Are you against lynching today in addition to controlling the bomb? Do you think faust's plan is bad? Or are you saying that I'm scummy for going along too quickly with plans that are good for town? If it's the latter, it's just that I honestly think they're good ideas and have yet to see the flaws in them.

I'm not arguing that either faust or ash is towny for suggesting these plans, ash in particular I very much buy proposing this plan as scum. I do vastly prefer treating the bomb control like a lynch rather than having one player directing it or asking for volunteers.

[pingpongsam]

I think you could be playing recovery for faust. It's not that your content stinks, it's how and when it is posted.

I like ash's plan over faust's. faust's plan has a huge hole in it and he downplayed that hole which reeks. I am currently in favor of nothing proposed, I am still cogitating. I refuse to pick sides and am suspicious of these posts that suggest I must. I find it amusing that you ask polarizing questions immediately followed by absolution that you will not currently go to those extremes yourself.

[EFHW]

I guess that should be bolded as a mod question

Can Firefighter target themselves with fireproof?

yes.

[yuma]

quick post, not much time. I am on this week and have a buddy in town so not a lot of time to post, but I am following the game via e-mails...

so basically I side with faust in the argument with PPS and ash and kinda find PPS's stance pretty silly... aren't you doing to ashersky what you are accusing ADK of doing to faust?

I automatically disagree with anyone who is trying to get reads based off theory talk. I am not against theory talk in this instance because I do think we can find a way to maximize our potential at night. However, saying that someone is scummy because they don't agree with a certain approach than you or because they aren't so bloody brilliant as you to realize better ways or flaws in theory is just ridiculous. Might as well just say dumb people are scummy and leave it at that...

This vein of scum hunting has been disproven time and time again and it is a waste to do so here. What is useful however, is noting that more often than not scum tries to use this form of scum hunting, so I do think it is worth analyzing who is saying "X is scummy for certain theory or reaction to theory." Will do that at a later time. People react to things different. Some players like to analyze the setup really deep. Some probably haven't even read it yet. Doesn't have a bearing on their alignment at all. Some will realize awesome way to take advantage, some will be resistant to such designs by nature and might be slow to come around or not come around at all... again, that doesn't have any bearing on alignment as shown by previous games where people of different alignments had either similar or different reactions with no bearing to alignment.

I have said this once and I will say it again, theory talk is the easiest thing to replicate a town response as scum. People will say exactly what they would say as town as scum when it comes to talking about theory.

So that is my take, I think I don't have much more to say except that I think there are few players that I want to hear more from as the only people I can remember in the game are chairs, ADK, PPS, Jimmmm, ash and faust. Who else is here?

[mail-mi]

hi im here. i don't really do set up theory, so I've not found much to contribute.

[Witherweaver]

I'm here.  It seems like we should make sure Chairs gets Firefighter.  We need an item-giving strategy for that to work.  Faust's makes it likely that he will. (He only needs, uh, Badge and Bandage to make it, and he'd be getting 1/4 of everyone's items so the chance is good.)  We don't have to do Faust's, though, and we probably want to guarantee he gets it.  I'm open to suggestions.

When you are sent an item, are you told who sent it to you?

If we use Ash's idea in conjunction with Fireproofs, then for Chairs to get killed, a Mafia member has to sacrifice themselves. (I think.)  And Chairs can start proofing whomever he thinks he should. 

Does Firefighting stack?  That is, if I make two Firefighters, do I get 4 shots of protection to give out?

[Archetype]

There's also the Cryptographer to worry about.

[Archetype]

This will (hopefully) be my final pos regarding bomb theory. I think we should try to control the bomb, but not as an alternative to our lynch. As WW (?) pointed out: Mafia can just no-kill and prime each night that we follow ash's plan. So I think we should just hand it off to our personal top scumreads, possibly with some IC direction, and lynch as normal. Both of these ways are also a nice way to gain info.

I'm also very hesitant to give Towncred based on theory talk. In other RMM games, I usually do. But since this is pure Open, I think less can be given out. It's so easy for a Towny to overlook a piece of info when making a plan and so easy for scum to seem Towny be remember that same piece of info.

[XerxesPraelor]

I just realized I'm in this posting soon.

[ashersky]

IC input would be super helpful.

My beliefs:

1)  We need to take control of the potato.  We can do that with my plan, a variation of my plan, or some other better plan.  Whatever it is, we need to determine that at the soonest possible juncture.

2)  We need to decide if we use the potato as our lynch instead of lynching during the day.  I think not -- the more I think about it, the actual danger of the no kill at night is that we never lynch/kill anyone and scum just primes and ignites EVERYONE.  Remember, scum can just throw the igniter under the bus to activate the backup for a second round of ignition.

3)  Actual set-up discussion/theory isn't great for scumhunting, but reactions to it can be.  The way someone reacts to a plan CAN be affected by their alignment.

[faust]

ashersky, do you have any opinion on the plan I proposed?

[ashersky]

I will discuss the details of ashersky's plan later on. For now, I have a plan of my own.

We need to coordinate item sendings to our best interest. This is how I think it can be done:

chairs, our IC, chooses one other player. The rest of the the players are divided into two groups of roughly the same size: A and B. All players in group A send their item to chairs, all players in group B send their items to the player chosen by chairs. At the start of the following day, chairs and the other player can reveal how many items they have received.

Advantages:

- Scum are in a dilemma here. Either, they can obey and send their item away. That will mean that they can't construct stuff. Or they send their items to themselves, but then we will know in which group we have how many mafia, which will lead to deadly POE later on.
- The IC and our top town read get the items, which means they perform our night actions, which means night action results can be trusted.
- From the N1 sendings, the IC knows what kind of item remain to the players who sent an item.

Dangers:

- greatest threat is the Embezzler power scum can get. They could just snap all the items sent to chairs. BUt for that, they need to get 4 magnifying glasses first, so unless scum have all magnifying glasses, it won't happen N1.
- another danger is that we might choose a mafia member as player two. But I think that risk is slim; it's hard to figure out who scum is on D1, but it's way easier to find someone who is town.

This one?  I'm cool with sending stuff to the IC, and I'm cool with making sure it's coordinated.

We need to be positive scum can't steal the stuff, though.  Or at least, steal the stuff that's important.

[chairs]

IC input would be super helpful.

My beliefs:

1)  We need to take control of the potato.  We can do that with my plan, a variation of my plan, or some other better plan.  Whatever it is, we need to determine that at the soonest possible juncture.

2)  We need to decide if we use the potato as our lynch instead of lynching during the day.  I think not -- the more I think about it, the actual danger of the no kill at night is that we never lynch/kill anyone and scum just primes and ignites EVERYONE.  Remember, scum can just throw the igniter under the bus to activate the backup for a second round of ignition.

3)  Actual set-up discussion/theory isn't great for scumhunting, but reactions to it can be.  The way someone reacts to a plan CAN be affected by their alignment.

I'm hoping to be able to respond tonight with some meaningful stuff, but I agree that a potato plan seems reasonable, though I don't think it should replace our lynch.

Don't forget that there's a defuser power that negates potato explosions (right? I want to make sure I'm not misreading again, since I'm only taking quick glances) so we could potentially utilize that.

[EFHW]

I'm here.  It seems like we should make sure Chairs gets Firefighter.  We need an item-giving strategy for that to work.  Faust's makes it likely that he will. (He only needs, uh, Badge and Bandage to make it, and he'd be getting 1/4 of everyone's items so the chance is good.)  We don't have to do Faust's, though, and we probably want to guarantee he gets it.  I'm open to suggestions.

When you are sent an item, are you told who sent it to you?

No

If we use Ash's idea in conjunction with Fireproofs, then for Chairs to get killed, a Mafia member has to sacrifice themselves. (I think.)  And Chairs can start proofing whomever he thinks he should. 

Does Firefighting stack?  That is, if I make two Firefighters, do I get 4 shots of protection to give out?

No, you would need to make one, use it, and then make another.

[Witherweaver]

I'm here.  It seems like we should make sure Chairs gets Firefighter.  We need an item-giving strategy for that to work.  Faust's makes it likely that he will. (He only needs, uh, Badge and Bandage to make it, and he'd be getting 1/4 of everyone's items so the chance is good.)  We don't have to do Faust's, though, and we probably want to guarantee he gets it.  I'm open to suggestions.

When you are sent an item, are you told who sent it to you?

No

If we use Ash's idea in conjunction with Fireproofs, then for Chairs to get killed, a Mafia member has to sacrifice themselves. (I think.)  And Chairs can start proofing whomever he thinks he should. 

Does Firefighting stack?  That is, if I make two Firefighters, do I get 4 shots of protection to give out?

No, you would need to make one, use it, and then make another.

This can not be done in the same night, correct?
   

[EFHW]

I'm here.  It seems like we should make sure Chairs gets Firefighter.  We need an item-giving strategy for that to work.  Faust's makes it likely that he will. (He only needs, uh, Badge and Bandage to make it, and he'd be getting 1/4 of everyone's items so the chance is good.)  We don't have to do Faust's, though, and we probably want to guarantee he gets it.  I'm open to suggestions.

When you are sent an item, are you told who sent it to you?

No

If we use Ash's idea in conjunction with Fireproofs, then for Chairs to get killed, a Mafia member has to sacrifice themselves. (I think.)  And Chairs can start proofing whomever he thinks he should. 

Does Firefighting stack?  That is, if I make two Firefighters, do I get 4 shots of protection to give out?

No, you would need to make one, use it, and then make another.

This can not be done in the same night, correct?
 

Correct.  Making powers resolves before using them, so you cannot use a power and then make one, with the exception of powers that resolve early, which would have been made during a previous night.

Also, some clarification about timing:

Orders will not work retroactively.  This applies mostly to the hot potato.  If a bomb has already been sent, it will not be unsent.  If protections have already been used at the time an order is received, they will not be undone.  So, in order for rolestopping to prevent the sending of the bomb, the target must be submitted in the first 6 hours of the night. Similarly, subterfuge will be most effective if submitted with the initial bomb sending.  Orders with specific timing requirements can be submitted during the previous day.  Timing considerations may mean that you would not want to make and use certain powers in the same night.