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[Awaclus]

what would have been the optimal play there?

Play Steward, trash Estate and Copper, pass turn.

EDIT: Possibly buy a Courtyard with your $2, but you'll have to be careful with terminal collision.

[jonts26]

what would have been the optimal play there?

Play Steward, trash Estate and Copper, pass turn.

This is the correct move, though it may seem a little counter-intuitive at first. But trashing 2 cards and passing is going to speed you up later. I would also do the same on turn 4 if you drew your other steward, though there are some situations where I would buy something instead, so it's not so cut and dried. Yeah, you just "wasted" two turns of potential buys, but now your entire deck is small and you can play key cards (your stewards for right now) much more often. There's always a tricky balance at this stage in the game, but you get better at it with experience, between trashing and buying. Trash too aggressively, and you'll find yourself unable to build back to the point where you can afford the things you want. Trash too slowly and you wont see key cards enough and you'll fall too far behind the big money player. My advice is just keep playing engines. You may lose some games initially, but as you get better at finding the right game flow, you'll improve. Also, feel free to post future game reports here and people are more than willing to give helpful advice on how you could play better in the future.

[flies]

My advice is just keep playing engines. You may lose some games initially, but as you get better at finding the right game flow, you'll improve. Also, feel free to post future game reports here and people are more than willing to give helpful advice on how you could play better in the future.

I think most people on this board will tell you it's more fun to play engines, generally speaking (this being the reason we're all here, basically).  But the only way you'll get out of the "money beats all" local minimum is trying some alternatives.  If you want to try some online games against some of us that might be fun, or you can watch some videos - the idea in both cases being that it's easier to see how to play an engine if you can actually watch one being played

[Reyk]

Played again tonigh with the same 10 cards. and i won! it seemed ineffective at first, he was buing provinces at turn 6, but the torturers really did some work this time, i was able to chain a lot of them.

The guys are absolutely right about engines being superior most of the time and being more fun for the engine builder. The question is: Do your friends still like the game? Because: To watch engine player's turns is really awful for BM players, especially real life and especially with chained torturers involved.

I'm serious. If I try to build complex engines real life with relatively new players they might not want to play again.

[shark_bait]

Played again tonigh with the same 10 cards. and i won! it seemed ineffective at first, he was buing provinces at turn 6, but the torturers really did some work this time, i was able to chain a lot of them.

The guys are absolutely right about engines being superior most of the time and being more fun for the engine builder. The question is: Do your friends still like the game? Because: To watch engine player's turns is really awful for BM players, especially real life and especially with chained torturers involved.

I'm serious. If I try to build complex engines real life with relatively new players they might not want to play again.

Playing a Scrying Pool/Hamlet engine is a living hell irl.

[KingZog3]

Played again tonigh with the same 10 cards. and i won! it seemed ineffective at first, he was buing provinces at turn 6, but the torturers really did some work this time, i was able to chain a lot of them.

The guys are absolutely right about engines being superior most of the time and being more fun for the engine builder. The question is: Do your friends still like the game? Because: To watch engine player's turns is really awful for BM players, especially real life and especially with chained torturers involved.

I'm serious. If I try to build complex engines real life with relatively new players they might not want to play again.

An engine is fine. The main thing that will make them not want to play is attack cards. Milita is ok, but don't kill them with Torturer.

[markusin]

Played again tonigh with the same 10 cards. and i won! it seemed ineffective at first, he was buing provinces at turn 6, but the torturers really did some work this time, i was able to chain a lot of them.

The guys are absolutely right about engines being superior most of the time and being more fun for the engine builder. The question is: Do your friends still like the game? Because: To watch engine player's turns is really awful for BM players, especially real life and especially with chained torturers involved.

I'm serious. If I try to build complex engines real life with relatively new players they might not want to play again.

It depends on the play group really. Some players might get bored with Dominion or have a negative first impression if they feel it is a "solved" game where you mostly buy money, but will have their eyes light up upon seeing an elaborate engine. On the other hand, being on the receiving end of a Torturer engine can be a smack down that keeps someone away from Dominion forever. I'm starting to wonder whether Intrigue is really the best way to introduce someone to engines. The engines in the base game tend to be rather innocent. The worst damage you can do to your opponents with an engine is play Militia every turn. However, as far as attacks in engines are concerned, nastier and nastier attacks become available as you move up the expansions. Torturer, Ghost Ship, Ambassador, Mountebank, Rabble, Goons, Knights, Discard+Masquerade, etc. The engines themselves start becoming slow to play once Alchemy and Cornucopia (think Menagerie/Hamlet) get into the picture.

It matters whether or not the players you're promoting the game to enjoy complex games or not. Players who enjoy simple games will like the feeling of playing with the hammer that is Big-Money (like my sister), while others will scoff at it and are seeking the flashiness of the machine that is the engine.

I recently introduced someone to Dominion. It was a 3-player that we played the the first game setup. The new player actually did very well, buying a good number of Markets and Gold, but was really impressed with the engine I was able to build. I think he can go far in Dominion if he wants to. I think seeing the engine made it immediately clear that "combo" decks have power and that Dominion is full of wonders. He wasn't discouraged when I won a later game with a Torturer engine either. He also got to experience me losing with an attempted Torturer engine, but was really impressed by how I was able to catch up with dukes and only lose by 2 points. Last I heard, he looked up Dominion online and introduced a friend of his to it.

So then, know who you're playing with, and be aware that Dominion is not for everyone.

[Bridge builder]

Played again tonigh with the same 10 cards. and i won! it seemed ineffective at first, he was buing provinces at turn 6, but the torturers really did some work this time, i was able to chain a lot of them.

The guys are absolutely right about engines being superior most of the time and being more fun for the engine builder. The question is: Do your friends still like the game? Because: To watch engine player's turns is really awful for BM players, especially real life and especially with chained torturers involved.

I'm serious. If I try to build complex engines real life with relatively new players they might not want to play again.

Don't worry, we don't get disappointed from getting torturer chained. after the games we aren't like "that torturer card is so op lets throw all of them to the toilet" but rather like "that was a cool strategy! i'll try something like it next time". Also, we also play mtg, and we don't play anything but combo decks there, so it's fun to try building something similar in dominion.

I have been thinking about getting an expansion. my cousin owns the basic game so i won't be buying that. what would you suggest?

[jsh357]

Played again tonigh with the same 10 cards. and i won! it seemed ineffective at first, he was buing provinces at turn 6, but the torturers really did some work this time, i was able to chain a lot of them.

The guys are absolutely right about engines being superior most of the time and being more fun for the engine builder. The question is: Do your friends still like the game? Because: To watch engine player's turns is really awful for BM players, especially real life and especially with chained torturers involved.

I'm serious. If I try to build complex engines real life with relatively new players they might not want to play again.

Don't worry, we don't get disappointed from getting torturer chained. after the games we aren't like "that torturer card is so op lets throw all of them to the toilet" but rather like "that was a cool strategy! i'll try something like it next time".

I have been thinking about getting an expansion. my cousin owns the basic game so i won't be buying that. what would you suggest?

Seaside and/or Prosperity

[Awaclus]

Seaside and/or Hinterlands.

[LastFootnote]

Played again tonigh with the same 10 cards. and i won! it seemed ineffective at first, he was buing provinces at turn 6, but the torturers really did some work this time, i was able to chain a lot of them.

The guys are absolutely right about engines being superior most of the time and being more fun for the engine builder. The question is: Do your friends still like the game? Because: To watch engine player's turns is really awful for BM players, especially real life and especially with chained torturers involved.

I'm serious. If I try to build complex engines real life with relatively new players they might not want to play again.

An engine is fine. The main thing that will make them not want to play is attack cards. Milita is ok, but don't kill them with Torturer.

I disagree. There are many players that would rather be hit by Attacks than wait for you to play your 30-card engine every turn.

[dondon151]

I think he meant that attack cards are extremely disheartening when used in tandem with engines.

[markusin]

Seaside and/or Hinterlands.

I've come around to seeing Hinterlands as a worthwhile expansion. It's cards actually tend to be simple. Emphasis on gain interactions and sifters over complex engine-y interactions. You just need to understand the buy/gain order.

Ill-Gotten Gains is really sloggy though, but at least Margrave anti-stacks.

[dondon151]

Margrave has become one of my least favorite cards. I really dislike it when essential engine pieces also happen to be semi-strong attacks.

[flies]

Margrave has become one of my least favorite cards. I really dislike it when essential engine pieces also happen to be semi-strong attacks.

so you think it's overpowered?  margrave + village alone almost make engines viable...

[KingZog3]

Margrave has become one of my least favorite cards. I really dislike it when essential engine pieces also happen to be semi-strong attacks.

so you think it's overpowered?  margrave + village alone almost make engines viable...

The feeling is that it's annoying. I mostly just slows the game down. It's like when Minion is a dominant part of the kingdom.

[Aidan Millow]

Played again tonigh with the same 10 cards. and i won! it seemed ineffective at first, he was buing provinces at turn 6, but the torturers really did some work this time, i was able to chain a lot of them.

The guys are absolutely right about engines being superior most of the time and being more fun for the engine builder. The question is: Do your friends still like the game? Because: To watch engine player's turns is really awful for BM players, especially real life and especially with chained torturers involved.

I'm serious. If I try to build complex engines real life with relatively new players they might not want to play again.

Entertaining anecdote along these lines. I was playing with my family (none of whom really build engines) and using a Menagerie engine with a bunch of other cards in it that required me to think about which one I'd play next. After a couple of turns of drawing approximately my deck and buying double fairgrounds I was feeling very self conscious about how over half the game was spent in my turn and I was in the middle of another such turn when my mother announced "I could kill you." She was in fact talking to a fly that she'd been paying attention to for quite some time and had now landed near her.

[eHalcyon]

She was in fact talking to a fly that she'd been paying attention to for quite some time and had now landed near her.

Is that what she told you?

[dondon151]

so you think it's overpowered?  margrave + village alone almost make engines viable...

I never said that it's overpowered. It's just that with Margrave in the kingdom, you don't have many options but to mirror at least the Margrave part, and then everyone is permanently stuck with a 3-card hand. Plus the continuous draw 1, discard 1 is annoying.

At least with Torturer, there's the requirement to stay tactically sharp lest you fall far behind. At some point, the Curses stop.

[DG]

 

It's just that with Margrave in the kingdom, you don't have many options but to mirror at least the Margrave part, and then everyone is permanently stuck with a 3-card hand.

I've found that's not always true. Any good treasure deck with gold/spoils will never get fully shut out by the margraves and can close out a good lead. The margrave engine has to make use of that extra buy to build a good engine.

[dondon151]

Those good treasure decks will usually have Margraves of their own, which was my point.

[brokoli]

Seaside and/or Prosperity

Seaside and/or Hinterlands.

Seaside and/or Cornucopia

So Seaside wins.

[LastFootnote]

Hinterlands probably combos with Intrigue better than any other set. They both have a bit of a "cares about Victory cards" theme.

[KingZog3]

Hinterlands probably combos with Intrigue better than any other set. They both have a bit of a "cares about Victory cards" theme.

Hinterlands is great, but really it's only Crossroads that combos with victory cards. Yeah there are 3 alt VP cards, but the cards don't combo with VP cards in general.

[Awaclus]

Hinterlands probably combos with Intrigue better than any other set. They both have a bit of a "cares about Victory cards" theme.

Hinterlands is great, but really it's only Crossroads that combos with victory cards. Yeah there are 3 alt VP cards, but the cards don't combo with VP cards in general.

Silk Roads, Cartographer, Cache, Duchess, and all that shifting definitely combo with victory cards.