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[theorel]

Alright, so, as we transition out of RVS and theory-talk (which we're doing now, because I say so, and I'm always right about this)...I'm going to give a massive 15-person reads list, using my patented scumScore system, which invariably fails to find scum, but always confirms me as town until later when I'm mislynched at lylo.  Let's see, 3 scum out of 15 is 1/5=20% 

mcmcsalot: he asked the reason for some votes just now.  It could be a great scum-ploy trying to figure out if there's a reasonable wagon there.  But it seems more like probing town to me.  scumScore = 18.

Robz888: He's engaged in the game, and it's day1.  Actually, this seems scummy to me coming from Robz.  I think this is his only current game though...and he's coming off the IC high in XXXIX with a town win.  He feels like town Robz, which often means he's scum-Robz.  But maybe I'm getting better at reading him?  Darn self-aware town-scum-flipping read thingy.  I'm going with an extremely slight-scum.  scumScore=21

yuma: Sounds like town-yuma to me.  Bringing up random helpful stuff and whatnot.  I dunno, I haven't read scum-yuma in a while...I feel like he's good at being scum and might be just utterly fooling me.  scumScore = 16

ashersky: Thought-out pregame plans are a town-ashersky thing.  He could fake it as scum, I mean he's crazy good at being scum after all.  But, really, I really think I'm getting good at reading ashersky, and this is town-ash.  scumScore=15

Teproc: I don't know him well.  He's all "oh no THEORY, this game is awful, and you people are horrible amoral human beings, you should be making jokes."  He's voting for yuma who's probably town, but y'know lynching town-yuma might not be a terrible idea, after all then he won't be able to persuade us with terrible reads (please take this in the light-hearted, yuma has had terrible reads lately, but I actually think he's a decent player tone that it was intended).  Anyways, I'm null here scumScore=20

Axxle: Hmm...I'm not sure how many times I've actually played with Axxle.  I thought he was scum in my first game.  I thought he was scum in my first win.  Both times he was town.  I don't remember ever having a town read on him.  I also don't remember him ever actually being scum in a game I was in.  I don't really have a read at this point, but I think I might actually be terrible at reading Axxle anyways.  scumScore = 20.

Okay, now I need to look, because I don't know so many of you people.
AndrewisFTTW: He saved the Power Grid game, yay!  I'm voting for him, and still forgot he existed.  I even just posted about him.  My brain is like a seive.  scumScore=20.

A Drowned Kernel: Such a cool name.  And spike avatar.  I've been skimming newmafia.  I have no idea what he's posted here, he's voting for sudgy though, which is probably a good idea as he's always scum (or always mislynched, or something).  scumScore=20.

sudgy: He's probably very scummy this game, because, y'know he's playing it and stuff.  But even if he's the serial killer, and I defend him, I'm not scum.  scumScore = 20.

mail-mi: I actually remembered him before I saw his name in the list.  I have no idea how to read mail-mi.  But he's probably town as he's trying to not-subtly end theory talk, without freaking out and voting people over it.  Actually, did I pick him out as scum in that last game I won?  I think I did.  I think I convinced everyone not to lynch scum and lynch him instead, when he was scum.  So, maybe I can read mail-mi.  He's town.  scumScore = 18

Voltaire: hey, Voltaire's here.  Right, all the philosophy-jokes I remember now.  Um...I remember he posted stuff.  I don't remember what.  Oh he voted for Axxle...maybe over the random Axxle-Teproc exchange?  (was that Teproc?)  scumScore = 20.

XerxesPraelor: Oooh, is he the guy that said he wouldn't post anything until something happened?  Then he asked why vigs shouldn't shoot (spoiler: they should).  Yeah, I'm leaning very slightly town here.  scumScore = 19

scott_pilgrim: hmm...I don't remember anything from him.  He might have posted though.  scumScore = 20.

jotheonah: hey, joth is in the game!  I remember that now.  I actually don't think he's posted at all...because I probably might have remembered that.  joth, say stuff.  scumScore = 20.

Alright, well there's a limited number of scum-reads there.  Mostly because it was the weekend and nobody posted anything.  I'm going to vote for someone though, for a better reason than taxes.  Oh right, Andrew...I really probably should have been able to put him in the first section, since I voted for him (noting that above...)

I'm gonna join this Teproc wagon and see what happens there, because wagons are fun and the day is young.  And I have basically no scum-reads  Vote: Teproc

[Teproc]

Teproc: I don't know him well.  He's all "oh no THEORY, this game is awful, and you people are horrible amoral human beings, you should be making jokes."  He's voting for yuma who's probably town, but y'know lynching town-yuma might not be a terrible idea, after all then he won't be able to persuade us with terrible reads (please take this in the light-hearted, yuma has had terrible reads lately, but I actually think he's a decent player tone that it was intended).  Anyways, I'm null here scumScore=20

Huh ? When did I say we should be making jokes ? We should be scumhunting, which is what you're doing here, great.

Except you're just voting for someone who you find null, and your vote is explicitely a pressure vote. Which doesn't accomplish anything. Pressure votes are fine and useful, except when you explicitely say it's a pressure vote it completely removes the pressure, which is kinda the point of them.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Sounds like Teproc is feeling the pressure of the non-pressuring pressure vote. Cue "Under Pressure".

[Teproc]

Isn't it unusual for yuma to be advancing a plan by the way ? I thought he was usually anti-claim ? I think it's scummy here because the plan looks horrible to me and has already prompted people to say too much, as well as the fact that it distracts from scumhunting, but I wonder what that should tell me about yuma.

I still think Andrew is scummy by the way. The absence of reaction to the mini-wagon on him is a little strange to me. Maybe he thought it was RVS at first, but even when it was specified not to be, he kinda disappeared, which I'm not sure what do with. I specifically voted for him without giving reasons hoping that it would prompt a reaction, but nothing.

PPE : Speaking of the devil !

[AndrewisFTTW]

The fact that nobody gave reasons for voting doesn't mean anything to me. Give me something I can argue and you'll hear from me a lot more.

[Voltaire]

vote: yuma because Teproc!

Ash is town. I'd like to think I've gotten very good at reading him. I think it has been a very long time since I've been wrong about ash (even in games where I've only spectated). It's going to take quite a bit to shake me from that read.

[theorel]

Teproc: I don't know him well.  He's all "oh no THEORY, this game is awful, and you people are horrible amoral human beings, you should be making jokes."  He's voting for yuma who's probably town, but y'know lynching town-yuma might not be a terrible idea, after all then he won't be able to persuade us with terrible reads (please take this in the light-hearted, yuma has had terrible reads lately, but I actually think he's a decent player tone that it was intended).  Anyways, I'm null here scumScore=20

Huh ? When did I say we should be making jokes ? We should be scumhunting, which is what you're doing here, great.

Except you're just voting for someone who you find null, and your vote is explicitely a pressure vote. Which doesn't accomplish anything. Pressure votes are fine and useful, except when you explicitely say it's a pressure vote it completely removes the pressure, which is kinda the point of them.

I don't vote people for pressure.  I think that's actually a stupid reason to vote for people, because town often freaks out under pressure, and scum often keeps their cool...it's more a factor of the person than their alignment.  OTOH, increasing the number of votes on someone has many other useful effects which are independent of pressure, which I've discussed at length elsewhere.  For now, I'll just point out the appearance of a more viable wagon, and the change of feel of the day as more votes accumulate.

But, I'm not really clear why you think my vote is a pressure vote anyways?  I mean, I'd be fine with lynching you.

[theorel]

Isn't it unusual for yuma to be advancing a plan by the way ? I thought he was usually anti-claim ? I think it's scummy here because the plan looks horrible to me and has already prompted people to say too much, as well as the fact that it distracts from scumhunting, but I wonder what that should tell me about yuma.

I didn't respond to this bit though.
I think that it's actually not that unusual for yuma to advance a plan.  He's always anti-claim without consensus, but he's the same here.  I don't think yuma is more or less likely to suggest claiming, he's just going to be upset if people claim willy-nilly.

I don't think it's given away any information.  I think that people are overly concerned about others "saying too much", I don't think anyone has done so.  Town WIFOM is a thing, and theory talk is a great way to exploit it.

[Teproc]

vote: yuma because Teproc!

Ash is town. I'd like to think I've gotten very good at reading him. I think it has been a very long time since I've been wrong about ash (even in games where I've only spectated). It's going to take quite a bit to shake me from that read.

You were wrong about him in DWII. And yes, he was erratic in that game, but still. I have no opinion on him so far though.

I don't vote people for pressure.  I think that's actually a stupid reason to vote for people, because town often freaks out under pressure, and scum often keeps their cool...it's more a factor of the person than their alignment.  OTOH, increasing the number of votes on someone has many other useful effects which are independent of pressure, which I've discussed at length elsewhere.  For now, I'll just point out the appearance of a more viable wagon, and the change of feel of the day as more votes accumulate.

But, I'm not really clear why you think my vote is a pressure vote anyways?  I mean, I'd be fine with lynching you.

Well your vote seems to be to get a wagon going more than thinking I'm scum, since, by your own words, you have a null read on me... Maybe we have dfferent definitions of a pressure vote, but that's what it sounds like to me.

Except you'd be fine with lynching me, despite not actually having a scum read ? That's just strange.

[Teproc]

The fact that nobody gave reasons for voting doesn't mean anything to me. Give me something I can argue and you'll hear from me a lot more.

I'll give you my reasons then, even though I've since switched to yuma : I was trying to get the game going by casting an explicitly serious vote on you on somewhat flimsy reasons (because all reasons to vote are pretty flimsy at this point in the game anyway) to know how you'd react. You've chosen not to react, which I guess is fine except it meant that discussion then moved to useless things instead of you arguing against the votes on you, which would have been useful content. This is what I find scummy about your absence of reaction : you passed on an opportunity to get the game going basically.

[AndrewisFTTW]

The fact that nobody gave reasons for voting doesn't mean anything to me. Give me something I can argue and you'll hear from me a lot more.

I'll give you my reasons then, even though I've since switched to yuma : I was trying to get the game going by casting an explicitly serious vote on you on somewhat flimsy reasons (because all reasons to vote are pretty flimsy at this point in the game anyway) to know how you'd react. You've chosen not to react, which I guess is fine except it meant that discussion then moved to useless things instead of you arguing against the votes on you, which would have been useful content. This is what I find scummy about your absence of reaction : you passed on an opportunity to get the game going basically.

All I had were four votes on me with 0 reasoning (besides theorel's taxes thing) which means they're not serious as far as I can tell, although you said you had flimsy reasons (which I'm curious about, as they still haven't been stated). Why would I respond seriously to something I didn't consider serious? Sure it gets the game moving, but it gets the game moving against me with arguments about me making a big deal out of nothing and freaking out about votes meant to gauge reaction (sample response: "You freaked out over a few votes. That's exactly what we wanted to happen. That's scummy!"). Besides, the game was going to get going either way and here we are. And based on all of that, I'm keeping my vote on you.

[Voltaire]

vote: yuma because Teproc!

Ash is town. I'd like to think I've gotten very good at reading him. I think it has been a very long time since I've been wrong about ash (even in games where I've only spectated). It's going to take quite a bit to shake me from that read.

You were wrong about him in DWII. And yes, he was erratic in that game, but still. I have no opinion on him so far though.

Was I? It's entirely possible. I used to be wrong about ash all the time. I'm talking about more recently. You've made me realize maybe I should go look this up, but I'm talking much more currently.

[Teproc]

DWII seems recent enough to me, doesn't it ? ash was town, went a little crazy on day 1 about faust (who did some weird things himself like fakeclaiming Vengeful), you pushed hard for his lynch day 2 when he maintained that faust was the right lynch and other ridiculous stuff like that.

(Sorry ash, but that game wasn't exactly your finest hour)

@Andrew : My flimsy reason was that I didn't like your answer to Robz's random lynch suggestion : you basically said "No thanks, I'll pass", instead of actually taking a position on it : either going along or firmly opposing the idea of a random lynch. I've actually stated this before btw but I can't be bothered to get the quote.

[theorel]

...
Well your vote seems to be to get a wagon going more than thinking I'm scum, since, by your own words, you have a null read on me... Maybe we have dfferent definitions of a pressure vote, but that's what it sounds like to me.

Except you'd be fine with lynching me, despite not actually having a scum read ? That's just strange.

My vote was to get a wagon on you.  The purpose of a wagon (for me) is not pressure.  Pressure makes people make mistakes, mistakes tend to get people lynched (regardless of alignment).  Anyways, it was a "wagoning" vote, but those I don't believe are pointless when announced.

But yeah, I have a much much lower threshold to lynch someone.  I'm pro-death in mafia games.  Vigs should shoot, towns should lynch, you never know when you might get lucky and hit scum.

[AndrewisFTTW]

@Andrew : My flimsy reason was that I didn't like your answer to Robz's random lynch suggestion : you basically said "No thanks, I'll pass", instead of actually taking a position on it : either going along or firmly opposing the idea of a random lynch. I've actually stated this before btw but I can't be bothered to get the quote.

Ok here it is:

I'd rather have a case on someone instead of picking someone at random. I'm talking about post-RVS here.

What I'm wondering is why you're not "totally" down with that. Seems strange to me : you don't think it's a good idea but it seems you're fine with people doing it regardless, since you're not really opposing it either. Why is that ?

I said I'll pass but that doesn't mean I don't have a position on random lynching. As I stated above, I'd rather have a case on someone first. If you don't like that answer, that's fine, you don't have to.

[mcmcsalot]

I find people voting for Andrew scummy.

[Robz888]

I find people voting for Andrew scummy.

Why?

[mcmcsalot]

Because I don't think the "case" on him is good at all.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.4

Teproc (4): AndrewisFTTW, Axxle, XerxesPraelor, Theorel
Axxle (1): mcmcsalot
AndrewisFTTW (2): Robz888, yuma
sudgy (1): A Drowned Kernel
XerxesPraelor (1): sudgy
yuma (2): Teproc, Voltaire

Not voting (4): scott_pilgrim, ashersky, jothenoah, mail-mi

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014

[yuma]

Isn't it unusual for yuma to be advancing a plan by the way ? I thought he was usually anti-claim ? I think it's scummy here because the plan looks horrible to me and has already prompted people to say too much, as well as the fact that it distracts from scumhunting, but I wonder what that should tell me about yuma.

vote: teproc

This post looks like teproc is trying to find a way to justify his "policy vote" with a pseudo-real reason.

But let's talk about this:

I am against claiming in dumb ways w/o thinking about things. I have claimed before in games. I am not against claiming. I am also not interested in plans that are intended to be game breaking as I feel they break the spirit of the game.

What I am interested in is looking at the setup and finding ways to potentially use the setup to an advantage as it is intended. I feel like I have always done this, but with most setups it is quickly apparent that there is no reason to discuss claiming or anything else as it is quite obvious that we can't get much out of it.

This is not the case here. If you want to disagree with me about finding a way to create an advantage then I don't know what to say... I think that you are at fault for disagreeing with me here based off one bad experience in a game where it was fairly obvious (DWII) that claiming would net zero benefits.

I believe that if we do have a SK turned town that is worth the loss of WIFOMed information to mafia in return for an IC. You have played with an IC Teproc. You should know that an IC is very valuable.

Regardless of your alignment, your stance of "claiming is bad ALWAYS" is wrong. It should be "claiming is bad most of the time, it is worth some discussion to find out unless it is blatantly obvious that there is no benefit" but that is a lot longer to type out so I can understand why you woulnd't want it as your motto. Could I suggest an acronym? CIBMOTTISWSDTFOUIIBOTTISNB? Yeah, that is pretty long too.

[Axxle]

claiming is bad so often that it's not really worth discussion.

[yuma]

claiming is bad so often that it's not really worth discussion.

Right, but here... in this specific situation... where we would have a former SK claiming as town... there are zero drawbacks! So why not do it if it exists... that is what I don't get from Teproc. He is just plugging his ears and going "Nananana!" because he believes that it is always bad. But here, it isn't. It has a tangible benefit (I am pretty sure) with very few to no drawbacks.

[Robz888]

I agree.

Can we do a tally or something? I vote lets do it.

[yuma]

I agree.

Can we do a tally or something? I vote lets do it.

No, that is silly. At this point we should probably just drop it and not beat it to death (on that point I agree with teproc). If said person exists they should look at the said benefits and the said drawbacks and then make a formed decision for themselves. Because ultimately their vote is the only one that will count... Even if we are 14 to 1 and the 1 is the one that needs to claim they aren't going to just because everyone else thinks that they should.

[ashersky]

At this point, any SK can make the decision on their own.