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51
Dominion Articles / Thoughts on Strategy vs Tactics
« on: May 04, 2012, 10:11:42 pm »
[Thoughts on Strategy vs Tactics]

The aim of this article is to revive a distinction made by a top player a little while ago:
At its very core, I think Dominion only tests two skillsets; to identify the strongest strategy, and to execute that strategy optimally. Is there a difference between very strong players and exceptionally strong players in these areas, you think?

I'll reformulate the two skillsets with my own wording:

Strategy is defined as analyzing the board, and either consciously, or unconsciously, appreciate its richness. It involves planning out not just your opening, or your most likely deck construction path, but also means taking into account other outcomes than the 'typical' one (i.e. so called 'strategy switches').

Tactics is how you execute your plays, and focuses on the actual, every-turn decisions you make. It involves how you play, buy or trash cards and more importantly, in which order. It also crucially involves the greening stage, moneyness and engine-building decisions.

In more mathematical terms, Tactics solely relies on a probability framework, while Strategy includes a dose of uncertainty, due to the inherently complex nature of some boards.  The usual approach towards the study of Tactics, brilliantly illustrated by both the Geronimoo and Dominiate simulators, is to simplify the dominion board to the clash between two 1-3 card strategies. This makes the problem of finding the optimal execution policy actually tractable, greatly improving someone's understanding of how a particular strategy works, and how it interacts with a particular competing one. Now, technically, the simulator is also supposed to answer questions of strategic nature. And it does so quite well for certain strategies, but I would like to stress the limits of that approach. My aim is not to diminish the importance of simulation: it is probably one of the biggest achievement in our strategic thinking, having discovered simple and elegant strategies such as Double-jack and Fool's gold. But I do think it pre-conditions us to think of strategies that have a low level of tactics involved... though paradoxically, the people who then use these strategies by default end up with a very high level of tactics.


In order to illustrate my point, let me review what are considered the two most common families of strategies, and how they relate to Tactics and randomness. My claim is that both try to reduce randomness in order to make tactics-related decisions easier... and of course, improve your chances of winning:

I'll start with the more obvious link. Engine building is a difficult but rewarding subgame of Dominion. It often involves more cards than big money, but not necessarily more types of cards. Most of the engines can be summarized by two cards, with often a third card being splashed in practice: Torturer chains,, Hunting Party engines, King's Court/Scheme shenanigans, Scrying pool engines, Hamlet/Menagerie interaction or the brilliant Apothecary/Native village Combo of Mean Mr Mustard. What all of these engines have in common, is that they try to defeat randomness by building a deck that will behave nearly exactly in the same manner every single turn. This often involves either heavy trashing (let's not forget that chapel is still probably the best card in the game) or drawing your whole deck (e.g.: brilliant win by O.G.), but can also involve scheme or hunting party (or both). The point is, you want to be able to play exactly the same set of cards every turn. I cannot end this paragraph without quoting the impressive Marin and his amazing engines.

Big Money is the other grand line of strategy. It comes in various shapes and sizes, often as BM+card. The most elegant version of it is probably double-jack, which not only truly encompasses the core value of 'moneyness' of the archetype, but also single-handedly defends it against pesky attacks such as sea hag or witch. An extensive review of the paradigm behind big money, read WanderingWinder's two articles on the topic. The man is the master of the field, and one of the two most skillful players I have had to chance to play with. Now, after you read about money density, about the relationship between deck size, hand size, and the ratio of green to treasure, I hope you appreciate what truly lies behind the spirit of Big money: the law of large numbers! Indeed, whereas engines try to defeat minimize randomness by building towards a near-deterministic play-mat every turn, big money attempts to minimize randomness by placing itself in the most favorable 'average' scenario. By keeping the strategy nice and simple, it avoids non-linearities, letting its tempo, and the law of large numbers, simply slide itself to victory.

Now you see why these strategies lend themselves to somewhat easier decisions in terms of tactics: they involve a relatively limited amount of cards, and the aim is to reduce the number of encountered scenarios inside a same game. This allows for a more rigorous training in the exact set of tactical skills you need to perfectly execute the strategy: by playing a simple, 1-2 card strategy over and over again, you will learn in which order to buy the cards, when to green and how to best close the game. You can also have a hope of simulating the strategy with a decent bot, greatly bootstrapping your analysis. But this only works for simple strategies. With simple, I don't mean 'simplistic' but rather elegant. And even the simplest of strategies, BM+Envoy, includes a learning curve in terms of greening decisions.

I am going to propose a third group of strategies, one that is in my opinion somewhat under-evaluated. It might also often be confused, or maybe just mixed, with engine strategies. I will dub them messy strategies, in the sense that they often are played less tactically skillful than the previous two, maybe because they are undervalued, but mostly because they have an inherently higher learning curve. This is because they often involve either cards that are less powerful (and with which players have therefore less experience), or just a greater number of different cards (and the combination therefore appears less often, leading to less experience as well). The essence of these strategies is to embrace, rather than fight, randomness or uncertainty. They reward risk, although in a measured manner. Probably the most known example are treasure map based strategies. I in particular believe those strategies to be well adapted to a player who faces a severe bias against him, due to for example to First player bias. Here are two examples of such plays: One successful noble brigand gamble, and another not immediately successful treasuremap/black market gamble. Of course, the first game is biased by the sheer fact that I hit Wanderingwinder's silver, but regardless, it added a fair amount of variance to a game that would otherwise have been dominated by a BM-variant. The second game is really just me attempting two initial gambles (black market and treasure map), but transitioning to a menagerie engine powered by exactly that variance in card types (crossroads,treasure mapand black market all work well with menagerie). The opponent's strategy was a standard pirateship/crossroad engine that would have perfectly messed up a BM in position 2. Messy strategies often also rely on one particular 'non-linear' event to happen, which of course strongly increases their variance. This awesome play michaeljb needs him to buy exactly one province (but not more, lest I finish the pile!), a few tournaments (without overcomiting, as I will have more provinces) all this to get the one princess that will allow the mega-turn. Of course, it's embedded in a more standard wharf engine, but that is secondary. A card I really enjoy using for messy strategies is navigator. Now in that particular example, the non-linear event is tactician with several banks (with some wharf help). It's not really an engine, as I do not pull of the thing with anywhere near enough regularity. Nor is it big money, given how I do not rely on the law of large numbers. It truly means I set up one or two very big turns to swing the game in my favor, often forcing my opponent into plays he did not foresee having to do (like getting duchies early). Navigator helps a lot in this situation, because it allows you to virtually hit more hands, increasing your odds of getting that magical non-linear one. KC-Navigator in particular I would rank as a full combo, probably very typical of the messy strategy: first, similarly to warehouse a lonely navigator increases your odds of having a KC paired up with an important target (like another KC), but more importantly, KC on navigator nets you 6$, and often guarantees you that your next hand will have KC+target. Of course, sometimes the wanted non-linear event just happens too late (I still think it was the correct play on that board, at least as p2).

Messy strategies face a big hurdle, however. Because they often rely on a mix of variance, non-linear effects and more than 2-3 types of cards, they are very hard to re-encounter, simulate and evaluate. This makes it very hard to anakyze certain weird strategies (like this talisman=>feast=>city idea) and leads to discussions where it is unclear whether the elegant strategy is necessarily the best one (I much prefer the ironworks/smuggler opening, which also grabs a ton of silvers, but obviously does not have the spy effect. On the up side, it can grab islands as well as lucky golds and duchies. But while I prefer it (because more decisions are involved), I am not convinced it is the better move).

To summarize, I tried to reintroduce an old concept,  Strategy versus Tactics, illustrating it on the two dominant classes of strategies. Then I argue that a third class of strategies exists (and maybe more?), which is in a weird sense more tactics intensive (because it is intrinsically harder to be experienced in it) and paradoxically played by less tactically skilled players (because tactics-players tend to hone their strategies by repeating them). This presents an interesting conundrum to players that are willing to push their strategic thinking a bit further, at the expense of losing their tactical edge. I hope you enjoyed the read.


Edit: replaced "Skill" by "Tactics". Thanks for the feedback!

52
Game Reports / Re: Ambassador/Bishop into Gold Trashing...
« on: April 07, 2012, 11:50:40 pm »
Touché! Nice catch. I skim those reports too fast >.>.

53
Dominion Articles / Re: Thoughts on going from level 25 to 35
« on: April 07, 2012, 11:43:40 pm »
Is there an article somewhere that discusses what cards are relatively worse or better for first and second seat? I recall seeing some discussion a while ago, but it seemed like mostly speculation at the time.

I would definitely like an all-random game where you didn't find out the cards until the game is accepted. One possible advantage of vetoing random: a couple of times, my opponent has commented on what seemed to be an unusual veto choice. Maybe vetoing something innocuous like Bureaucrat or Harvest has a subtle psychological effect--"what does my opponent know about these cards that I don't"

Experimenting a lot with those thoughts in mind and veto mode.

So far, my top auto-vetos when playing p2:
peddler (with support)
fool's gold (with support)
gardens (with ironworks/workshop)
chapel (with engine)
wharf  (!)
tournie
torturer (with support and without trasher)
vault (without engine)
embassy (without engine)
envoy (without attacks)

it's not quite the order, but pretty close.

as p1:
swindler
TM (often without support)
baron (when it is not optimal as p1)
trader (when there is a curser)

Some of these could be tested with the simulator, but in a lot of cases the strategies involved involve a skill level the simulator does not have.

I am still undecided for KC.

Peddler and fool's gold are to me the worst offenders: way too often, the 'bad' outcome for p2 is a 7-3 split, while a 'bad' outcome for p1 is 5-5. Tournie has a similar effect. All the others are on the list because they make for short, near-deterministic games where p2 has trouble getting an edge.

The p1 one is pretty self-explanatory.

54
Game Reports / Re: Ambassador/Bishop into Gold Trashing...
« on: April 07, 2012, 11:16:41 pm »
I think the point of amb was not the attack, but just the chapel part. Kirian was aiming for the golden deck, and just didn't reach it on time.

And once Tlloyd had too much of a lead, Kirian had to eat up golds instead of provinces, which makes less points.

If he had reached the golden deck faster, the situation would have been reversed, with him crunching the provinces and Tlloyd looking for ways to make points.

T4 didn't help, but I suspect double-jack (or jack-ship) would have been too fast regardless, especially as p1.

Wonder how haven-TM would have fared (as p2). Any simulations out there?

55
I don't see how jester hurts TM more than governor. Governor spams silvers in the TM deck (faster than jester spams coppers/curses) while just plain outraces it.

I'm probably going to sound like an old disc record here, but I really like the fortune teller/TM opening. Pretty sure it's the correct play for p2 (though simulators may prove me wrong).

Both governor and vault make for very deterministic BM strategies. Opening either of them gives p1 overwhelming odds in a BM mirror-match. Both TM and fortune teller can, through sheer luck, invert those odds. But it's good variance, from p2's perspective. TM also hurts vault (though governor hurts TM). If p2 cycles p1's 5$ on the first cycle, that will hurt a lot. Odds of that are 25%. Odds of lucky TM: 29%. That has a good chance of balancing the odds back to 50-50, which they were definitely not to begin with.

As to jester vs governor, I don,t know how important the distinction between silver and copper/curse are to TM. in any event, governor is overall the stronger card and decreases map collisions just as well.


edit.

in a vacuum, governor> jester.

now jester hurts TM. But so does governor. so probably, governor> jester, even with TM.

56
Help! / Re: Did the 5/2 opening kill me on this board?
« on: April 07, 2012, 10:47:39 pm »
Tough one.

Personally I'd have played a couple of things slightly differently on a 5/2. First up, I'd have bought a Wharf on $5. In fact, the game plan would have been two Wharves + Big money, perhaps with a late Ambassador if (and only if) my opponent started playing Young Witch.

Also, for you, I think Turn 8 was a good time to buy Province not gold, Turn 9 silver would have served you better than ambassador, Turn 11, Province not gold again, and so on.

You need a very good reason not to buy Provinces as soon as you can. Look at it this way: buyng gold over province has to give you at least two opportunities to buy province later that you wouldn't otherwise have had, otherwise you've wasted a turn.

Perfect analysis. Wharf is the first card I veto as p2, way before amb because of the way it shortens games and hence helps p1. Amb should have no time to race wharf/bm. get an ambassador only against YW (as it both moats and ships curses back).

57
Game Reports / Re: Was this just really bad luck?
« on: April 07, 2012, 10:29:52 pm »
To me, maps as p2 make sense, especially with inn.

Of course, IGG is the dominant strategy. But as p2, you will almost surely lose the IGG race. Play variance: golden rule as p2 when the dominant strategy is 'nearly deterministic'.

So frankly said, I think p2 had the right opening (with the other possibility being noble brigand/silver). p1 definitely should have opened silver/silver.

Also, p1 had his treasure maps collide just as fast as p2: at the first reschuffle with at least two maps. p1 did not buy trasure map with his 5 on t3, p2 did.

Certainly there was variance involved, but p2 *was seeking for it*. p1 lacked a focused strategy and should have *avoided* variance.

That being said, p1 has higher playing skills. Clearly, some of p2s market buys should have been IGGs.

I'm happy to see strategy > skills for once.

58
Game Reports / Re: Dear My Opponent: I am Sorry
« on: February 12, 2012, 04:35:19 pm »
http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201202/12/game-20120212-130256-17771f1e.html

I am sorry to have missed KC three cycles in a row. It made you win and brought you to believe that lookout is a better opener than warehouse on these kinds of boards.


59
Puzzles and Challenges / Re: 3 Piles of Treasure
« on: February 09, 2012, 11:10:43 pm »
Hm, ambassador/KC vs Trader/hoard sounds like a distant possibility.

Basically, the amb/KC player just wants to flood the other player's deck with copper (and probably curse).

The hoard/trader player just tries to defend, while greening reasonably well (eventually trashing gold on trader to drown his green, coppers and curses in silver).

The only danger I see is the curse pile emptying before the third treasure pile does.

Mind you, you could replace amb/KC by trasher/mountebank/KC, though again, the curses will empty out before the coppers. Maybe trasher/jester/KC?

60
Dominion General Discussion / Re: What is the worst card in Dominion?
« on: February 08, 2012, 09:13:11 am »
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120129-135556-534d8d1a.html

transmute rushes chains can work. (yes, yes, vineyard does all the work... Still, my deck ran without any sort of money source: the money per turn graph is hilarious)

61
Quote
Key cards: Highway, Salvager, Harem, Vineyards.

Remove Harem, it's completely irrelevant and probably made you lose the game.
False.

I am surprised. Do you mean in general, or on this board? I definitely don't see how you can defend Harem in this matchup.
Well, both. But I really mean in this board. It may not be a super-key card, but there is absolutely no way it's irrelevant. and it definitely didn't lose him the game. I don't see how you can say it's irrelevant here, and as it generally isn't... why do you think it's totally irrelevant here? I'll give you that it might be ever-so-slightly less relevant here than normal, but... not by much.
My two reasons to disregard Harem on this match up are:

Granted, the OP did not go for salvager-BM. The point I'm trying to illustrate with the above solo-game is that 27 turns is waaay too long. Salvager/gold takes a lot less time to close down the game, and makes more points by then.

Now sure, if we play for longer, Harem is a better deal. There is probably a simulation out there proving that harem-BM beats straight BM. It might even beat salvager-BM (not certain though). But salvager BM does not take 27 turns to finish the deal.

62
Quote
Key cards: Highway, Salvager, Harem, Vineyards.

Remove Harem, it's completely irrelevant and probably made you lose the game.
False.

I am surprised. Do you mean in general, or on this board? I definitely don't see how you can defend Harem in this matchup.

63
Quote
Key cards: Highway, Salvager, Harem, Vineyards.

Remove Harem, it's completely irrelevant and probably made you lose the game. Then look at your list of key cards again. Guess what, they made your opponent win the game.

1) Highway synergizes with +buy
2) Vineyards synergizes with +buy
3) Vineyards synergizes with spammable cantrips

This board adds 1, 2, and 3 together into a Highway/Vineyards/+buy engine.  Seems like a reasonable strategy against Big Money to me.

As for your play, I would have gone for Gold over Harem early (i.e., turn 10), and bought a Province at turn 8.  A long game favors the Vineyards player (his turn 7 signals he's going for this strategy, where he buys Highway over Gold), so you'd have been better poised to keep the game short, which means going for Provinces asap. 

For example, if you had done the following:

- turn 7, buy Highway instead of Woodcutter
- turn 8, buy Province instead of Gold
- turn 10, you'd have a Highway and Province in hand instead of a Woodcutter (clashing with your Cutpurse) and Gold.  Play the Highway and you draw another Copper, so after your Cutpurse you'd have $5 and everything costing -$1, allowing you to buy that Harem anyway... but I'd buy a Gold instead.

At this point, you'd have a Highway instead of your Woodcutter, and a Province instead of your Harem.  Hard to say exactly how things would have shaken out from here, but if the rest of the game played out similarly (except you not buying an Estate on turn 15, as you wouldn't have a Woodcutter) you could have ended the game on turn 18 with a Province buy.  That would win you the game, as you'd have had 39 VP vs. 36 VP for your opponent, as he only had 2 Vineyards by that time worth 3 VP each (10 actions).  {As the actual game ran much longer, he was able to not only nab two more Vineyards, but also bulk his four Vineyards up to 5 VP each.}

^This

Plus a BM variant that takes 27 turns without any significant attack was probably misplayed.

Gold over harem any day if you want the game to go faster (which is a good way to counter vineyard).

Get more salvagers and aggressively trash provinces to them.

64
Game Reports / Re: Embargo
« on: February 05, 2012, 09:47:07 am »
Ignore it if ambassador, masquerade, JoaT or chapel are on the board. (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120114-085710-15ddf643.html)
Interesting, I just happened to read michaeljb's description of his Isodom 3 match against Marcus316 right before this thread:

Game 5: michaeljb 39 - 32 Marcus316
Ambassador, Apothecary, Chapel, Coppersmith, Embargo, Highway, Ill-Gotten Gains, Loan, Stables, Trade Route
The first thing I notice is that I want to Embargo IGG. (...)

Hm, forgot to mention embargoing IGG. That board has both ambassador and IGG, making the embargo decision slightly awkward. That being said, I don't feel like IGG is particularly dangerous on a board with amb.

Also, maybe I'm not reading that board correctly, but amb+potion => coppersmith sounds pretty fun to me.

65
Game Reports / Embargo
« on: February 04, 2012, 01:10:01 pm »
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120203-135714-3012606a.html

Embargo decisions were, in order: apo, apo, minion and city. Next one would have been gold.

While the game is frankly boring, I think it illustrates well embargo dynamics. I am very fond of those because I used to overrate embargo a lot, but now it has become one of the cards I am most comfortable with.

So here is some piece of advice, though feel free to criticize and comment.
  • Don't ignore it. Assess the board, then ignore if it is no threat.
  • Ignore it if ambassador, masquerade, JoaT or chapel are on the board. (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120114-085710-15ddf643.html)
  • Never overextend into a strategy or engine. The typical examples are potion, minion but also plain BM if it conflicts with what there is else on the board.
  • Go heavy on the trashing and gaining effects. Don't hesitate to take otherwise not-so good trashers. Remodel shines in embargo games (embargo grand market, remodel into them anyone?). Remake is a beast. To be the only one allowed to get the embargoed card without a curse, or able to trash the curse, is extremely valuable.
  • Embargo cards you already have but your opponent doesn't. Mountebank is a great target, because of all the cursers, it is the one with most variance. (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120111-065321-bdcf46ac.html)
  • The best embargo targets are: 5s (if there are only a few good ones, like in this game), gold, plat, sometimes silver (someone opening lookout might find themselves in a bind), embargo if you have an engine to protect. Embargoing  green can also be a neat trick, though that would warrant a discussion of its own.
  • Be flexible. Don't go BM envoy, because if he embargoes gold/silver, you will need actions, and envoy doesn't like those usually. But don't jump into an engine where one embargoed component could kill you. Your best bet is usually some highly hybrid, adaptive strategy. (http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120117-071346-33ebb2d9.html)

I'm sure most of those don't come as surprises.

66
Dominion Articles / Re: Crossing The Lvl 30 Barrier
« on: January 29, 2012, 06:44:15 pm »
Hm, I distinguish between skill and strategy. One can have good skills (not make misplays on playing out a strategy) without picking the optimal strategy. Vice-versa, someone can make the better strategic decision, and just play it out badly.

I should probably specify what I mean by skill and strategy, because people will disagree.

To me, a strategy is choosing the engine, the general battle plan, the stuff you can decide on T1. This can include some mid-game scenarios and decisions that you plan ahead, depending on how familiar you are with the strategy. Typically for high level players, the most likely end-game situations should be clear in your mind.

Skill are decisions (mostly card play order, card options, buying priority and endgame) that occur during the game.


As for the winning strategy always being the one where you learn most, I just disagree.

67
Dominion Articles / Re: Crossing The Lvl 30 Barrier
« on: January 29, 2012, 04:32:20 pm »
I am not sure how much this will actually help people, but I'll mention my one biggest strength/weakness/bias, which might have helped, hindered or be completely unrelated to my level.

I hate mirror matches.

I really loath them.

If given the choice of 50-50 odds in mirror match, or 40-60 (playing a sub-optimal strategy), I will always pick the second case. This is especially the case if the lesser strategy is something I haven't played as often.

Now my reasons for this recurrent lapse of rationality are the following:
  • You learn a lot less in a mirror match. By definition, you will never get any strategic insight from a mirror match, only better technical skills at playing the (mirrored) strategy. While this is also valuable, I just don't care about improving my skills, and would rather focus on strategic decisions. Skill increase usually follows, though mine is definitely very below that of my cohort.
  • Occasionally, the sub-optimal strategy is actually better, it's just that because it was not tested as much.
  • Occasionally, because of the p1/p2 interplay, the (usually riskier) "sub-optimal" strategy is the better one for p2.
  • Most importantly, mirror matches are no fun.

Now if there is really only one decent strategy on the board, I will mirror. But if there is any way to avoid, I do. And so what if it decreases my odds of winning this particular game: by having played this (newish) strategy, I can now compare it more accurately, and hopefully pull it off better when it comes back again on another board, where it actually might be dominant!

I wonder how 40+ players (I consider myself still a 30+) feel about this. How much room do you feel there is for strategic improvement? What is the tradeoff between learning process and maximizing win conditions given available strategies?
 

68
Help! / Re: What to open here?
« on: January 29, 2012, 10:03:20 am »
no village D=?

I would probably have opened chapel+silver, then menagerie+governor, then grabbed ww, maybe a witch.

I would expect menagerie and ww to be key here for chapel/something to win over plain BM/witch.

ww loves chapel (if you count cards) and governor (I guess... gold!)

similarly, menagerie loves chapel (just don't get more than one silver: trash them to governors) and governor (gain gol/upgrade card, menagerie).

If there is a village, you can yourself play witch much earlier without disrupting the menagerie engine.

70
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Opening Inn?
« on: January 28, 2012, 05:30:20 pm »
Embargo/inn? Seems like a long shot.

Depends on what is on the board, but courtyard/inn sounds pretty sweet to me. embargo/inn could be deadly on the right board. You are guaranteed to play your embargo T3!

71
Game Reports / Re: IGG vs tournaments
« on: January 28, 2012, 02:16:01 pm »
Agreed, as usual, WW is 100% correct.

On this board however,  the fact that it costs 4 given remake devel+igg, sounds pretty important to me.

Plus I usually tend to over-buy cantrips to not slow down reshuffling.


72
Game Reports / Re: IGG vs tournaments
« on: January 28, 2012, 01:50:52 pm »
Hi and welcome to isotropic and the forum :).

First, on the tournament issue: The only reason to ignore tournament is if you think there is a faster strategy that gets to province. Even if (actually, especially if!) the game looks like it's going to be a not very province-heavy game (in this case, because of igg, but it could be gardens, colonies...). Indeed, in those types of games, tournament is (essentially) an underpriced market!

Personally, I would have opened devel/tournament as p2, silver/tournie for p1. then go for exactly the same strategy (prioritize getting 2 goons, then igg and try develing your tournies into igg/silver and igg into gold/tournie)

73
mandarin/remake (not sure what the optimal number of mandarins is though.)


74
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Combo: Chancellor/Inn
« on: January 24, 2012, 08:51:19 am »
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20111214-150017-618245a6.html

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120106-021715-5877b4e9.html

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120113-144923-3c98164a.html


I also had games with chancellor+inn => grand market and chancellor+inn=> witch (to win the curse race + inn filters through the curses) but I can't seem to find them.


75
Game Reports / Re: My fastest win so far ...
« on: January 23, 2012, 04:06:11 pm »
I think protracted ambassador wars will produce the slowest optimal game.
A key is no trashing, so that the same bad cards get sent back and forth over and over.



The other edge case of ridiculously long games with optimal play are ones with, say, Farming Village, Golem, Chapel, and Possession. This sort of game results in you playing your opponent's hand more often than you play your own. Both players trim down to 0 treasure and the game can go on indefinitely.

what about native village/apo/possession?

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