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Author Topic: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?  (Read 18768 times)

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WanderingWinder

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WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« on: April 14, 2012, 07:23:47 pm »
+3

Instead of logs, I give videos:

That's over an hour of content. You don't have to watch it all at once.

Also, this guy frustrates the bleep out of me (yes, I self-censor (well, actually I just don't curse, but I do get frustrated)) mostly because I lose to him and am most always left with this... 'but how?' feeling... so Marin, don't take it so much personally, but for whatever reason, you just kill me all the time.

Kirian

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2012, 08:43:55 pm »
0

I think having WW ask "why do I keep losing to this guy?" is a pretty damned high compliment.
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DG

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2012, 09:35:27 pm »
0

You might want to be a bit slower taking your turn. Sometimes it's very difficult to see what the opponent is buying before it scrolls of the top of the screen.

For game 9 you should have taken the worker's village instead of the last fishing village. Not sure it would have saved you though but it might have done.
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rod-

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2012, 10:25:44 pm »
0

You could be a bit slower to frown upon his "poor play", just because he's not ending the game in the exact way that you would.  Even "taking an outpost turn" to win on instead of winning outright is an entirely valid option, at least when you have 5 throned wharves to make sure you can't whiff.  Complaining about your opponent not ending the game on the turn that he could have ended the game mere seconds before he does that exact thing just seems petulant.

Winning every game as fast as possible is not the goal ; winning every game is. It might not make a difference, but a bit of an attitude change never hurt.

The attitude difference might also be part of why he seems to be a much better engine player ; you're running a sprint to four(ish) provinces, while Marin is often sitting at the starting line building a racecar. 

I only watched a few games, but that was the impression i got. 
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shark_bait

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2012, 10:34:08 pm »
0

In game 2, he committed to the engine right from the start with the Wishing Well opening.  With so many good engine components at $4, the extra cycling from the Wishing Wells was probably better than Silver.

In the Saboteur game, yes he hit pretty much all of your TR's, but it had the potential to hit Duchy/SR.  Both of which were detrimental to your score when he did hit them.  With Ambassador, he was able to get constantly play the Saboteur for the greatest effect.

I guess that would be my biggest impression is that you so often open silver out of instinct or see Silk Road and immediately think that a Silk Road rush is necessary.  Sometimes, opening with engine components can be the right move and sometimes in alternate VP games like SR, an engine can be built that can beat the rush.


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philosophyguy

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2012, 10:36:00 pm »
+1

Three big things I see. One is that Marin takes advantage of cards that enable engines really well. Getting a Haggler in a Wharf deck to pick up Villages so he can chain Wharfs, getting an Outpost in a Wharf deck, etc. These moves make a huge difference when you're racing for a BM-X strategy and failing to adjust to a longer game when you see that he's going for an engine and you won't be able to close the game out before he's playing his whole deck every turn.

Second—in a number of the games, I don't see you having a clear strategy for how to end the game on piles. Even when it's obvious that he's not going to help you drain piles, you go for multiple expensive VP piles (e.g., Silk Roads and Duchies) and then can't close out the game. Third, and related, I see a lot of short term thinking. In one game, you go for Duchies over Gardens even though you have to know that Gardens are going to be worth at least as much as Duchies by the end, and as a result you don't get a favorable Gardens split.
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paddyodoors

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2012, 11:26:27 pm »
0

You could be a bit slower to frown upon his "poor play", just because he's not ending the game in the exact way that you would.  Even "taking an outpost turn" to win on instead of winning outright is an entirely valid option, at least when you have 5 throned wharves to make sure you can't whiff.  Complaining about your opponent not ending the game on the turn that he could have ended the game mere seconds before he does that exact thing just seems petulant.

Winning every game as fast as possible is not the goal ; winning every game is...

I don't know... I think I'd have to disagree with you here, rod (respectfully, of course).  Yes, the goal of the game is to win.  And to that end, the score is known by all, the winning conditions are known by all.  At this level of play, there is an expectation that each player is watching the board with a bare minimum of skill to at least know what-and-how-many piles are running out.

Given all of that, NOT ending the game in victory when you are perfectly capable of doing so shows that a player is either missing something or being a bit silly.  I think WW's frustration is not because of his attitude... I think is because prolonging the game after the point of victory is NECESSARILY a product of poor play (missing something) or poor form (silly).

Just my opinion, obviously YMMV.

If you're not ending the game and there is a possibility of the opponent coming from behind and winning, then you have taken a risk for absolutely no reward.

If you're not ending the game and there is NOT a possibility of the opponent coming from behind and winning, then you are being at best wasteful and at worst a showboat.
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paddyodoors

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2012, 11:31:14 pm »
+4

...
(yes, I self-censor (well, actually I just don't curse...))
...

I call bs -- I have mounds of video evidence that disproves this.

(lol Dominion jokes)


Second—in a number of the games, I don't see you having a clear strategy for how to end the game on piles. Even when it's obvious that he's not going to help you drain piles, you go for multiple expensive VP piles (e.g., Silk Roads and Duchies) and then can't close out the game. Third, and related, I see a lot of short term thinking. In one game, you go for Duchies over Gardens even though you have to know that Gardens are going to be worth at least as much as Duchies by the end, and as a result you don't get a favorable Gardens split.

WW, I have to second philosophyguy here.  In game 6, when you bought Explorer (a card that I like more than most, I think) I was at first confused.  Then I realized it must be some deep level 40 trick for ramping up your late-game Gardens strat.  Then you were buying Duchies and I was back to confusion.

If you didn't have Gardens directly in mind when you made that Explorer purchase (actually I think it was a University-gain), then why didn't you first go for Ghost Ship?  Attacking the engine builder would seem like a better way of slowing down his engine...

All in all, it looks like you were having an off day... there were a couple of simple mistakes that you made (noted by you in the video).  I wouldn't sweat it too much.

And seriously, thanks a million for the videos.  It probably can't be the best feeling posting a series of frustrating losses.  We appreciate the sacrifice of time and effort, please keep up the good work!  ;D
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 12:11:28 am by paddyodoors »
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jonts26

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2012, 11:39:43 pm »
0

I have to agree with the not prolonging the end of the game. I can understand WW's frustration quite well. When you're so far behind you know you cant win, especially after a few bad matches, watching a guy keep buying crap when you could be on your way to starting a new game is just a terrible experience. And really, the game isn't just about winning. It's about enjoyment. You want to get the best experience out of it, and to do that you need to foster a community which also wants to minimize the pain of others. Just put them out of their misery.

Also, WW, if you get the chance I think it would be very helpful if you posted the CR logs in the descriptions. Sometimes its a lot easier to go over the log quick than have to sift through the video looking for certain things. Though, no biggie.
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paddyodoors

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2012, 11:42:44 pm »
0

Also, WW, if you get the chance I think it would be very helpful if you posted the CR logs in the descriptions. Sometimes its a lot easier to go over the log quick than have to sift through the video looking for certain things. Though, no biggie.

100% agreed.  That one line of text in the description would help us follow along with opponent's purchases and actions occurring during long chains, etc.  Just a thought, no pressure.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2012, 12:05:27 am »
+2

A reoccurring theme is that you go for BM Money or VP variants, he goes for engines.  A LOT of these games were of the engine type (I've only seen the first 6 or so atm).   
you're running a sprint to four(ish) provinces, while Marin is often sitting at the starting line building a racecar. 
I think that's the best way to explain it.  Even in the game 7 silk roads rush.  If you spent another reshuffle building more parts to it (mainly moats, fishing villages), I think it would've worked out better.  Then again hindsight is 20/20.  The one with the wharf/throne room/haggler seem like an obvious engine board, but I do think that throne room/wharf connection at the start makes it easier for him.  Without that, it is closer. 

Also, WW, if you get the chance I think it would be very helpful if you posted the CR logs in the descriptions. Sometimes its a lot easier to go over the log quick than have to sift through the video looking for certain things. Though, no biggie.

100% agreed.  That one line of text in the description would help us follow along with opponent's purchases and actions occurring during long chains, etc.  Just a thought, no pressure.
Councilroom.com is open to everyone.  We can help him out and post it in the comments of the youtube pages.  It's probably the least we can do considering he's put up a lot of great videoes.  Too lazy now since I've watched them but just sayin'. 
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jonts26

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2012, 12:07:22 am »
+3

Councilroom.com is open to everyone.  We can help him out and post it in the comments of the youtube pages.  It's probably the least we can do considering he's put up a lot of great videoes.  Too lazy now since I've watched them but just sayin'.

Oh now you're just spewing good ideas. Actually that never occurred to me. But yeah, it's pretty obvious thing to do.
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rod-

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2012, 12:22:27 am »
0

If you're not ending the game and there is a possibility of the opponent coming from behind and winning, then you have taken a risk for absolutely no reward.If you're not ending the game and there is NOT a possibility of the opponent coming from behind and winning, then you are being at best wasteful and at worst a showboat.
Just put them out of their misery.

The games I mentioned were games where:
1) He accuses his opponent of not ending the game, but his opponent has not yet finished his turn, and in fact DOES end the game on that very turn.
2) He accuses his opponent of not ending the game, when his opponent merely takes a free turn with outpost to rack up some points before buying out the last pile.

In neither case was there a risk, in one there was absolutely no justification for complaining, and in neither did the opponent prolong the game by even a single turn.  At most, the second case prolonged the game by the twenty seconds that the last turn took, and given that it was an outpost turn, an argument could be made that he was merely playing out his actions, and I've yet to see someone complain about a person playing out his deck on the last turn when all he has to do is push the +coins button to buy out whatever pile is available.  I FULLY agree with people ending the game ASAP, but I do not agree with WW's assessment of the two games in question:  The games were over, and the games were ended promptly.
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rrenaud

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2012, 12:48:21 am »
+2

Hmm.  Maybe it would be worth getting embedded youtube videos to work in the forum?
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RisingJaguar

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2012, 01:01:28 am »
0

If you're not ending the game and there is a possibility of the opponent coming from behind and winning, then you have taken a risk for absolutely no reward.If you're not ending the game and there is NOT a possibility of the opponent coming from behind and winning, then you are being at best wasteful and at worst a showboat.
Just put them out of their misery.

The games I mentioned were games where:
1) He accuses his opponent of not ending the game, but his opponent has not yet finished his turn, and in fact DOES end the game on that very turn.
2) He accuses his opponent of not ending the game, when his opponent merely takes a free turn with outpost to rack up some points before buying out the last pile.

In neither case was there a risk, in one there was absolutely no justification for complaining, and in neither did the opponent prolong the game by even a single turn.  At most, the second case prolonged the game by the twenty seconds that the last turn took, and given that it was an outpost turn, an argument could be made that he was merely playing out his actions, and I've yet to see someone complain about a person playing out his deck on the last turn when all he has to do is push the +coins button to buy out whatever pile is available.  I FULLY agree with people ending the game ASAP, but I do not agree with WW's assessment of the two games in question:  The games were over, and the games were ended promptly.
Lets not get carried away with the reaction when someone loses a couple more games to a nemesis.  I am a different person when I lose, I'm sure we all are. 

Also, if you buy out three piles and you play outpost, the game ends.  So technically he did drag out the game longer.  Unless that doesn't counts because its still 'his turn'? Meh, I don't think this is the place to be arguing morals.  A lot of fun games to talk about. 
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Geronimoo

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2012, 05:05:45 am »
0

I understand the frustration as Marin plays very loose at times. But he's pretty good at engine building and you seem to prefer big money a little too often despite the presence of a decent engine. Also, you're both playing at lightning speed which is fun for both players because you get to play a lot of games in a short time, but maybe take your foot of the throttle sometimes?
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Geronimoo

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2012, 05:17:30 am »
+2

I have a feeling you're misplaying Remakes. In two games I saw you buying/gaining them far into the midgame while I only see it as an opener.
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def

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2012, 05:48:58 am »
0

In game 10, Marin buys Margrave over Goons early on, which you think of as an mistake. He is getting more Margraves while you ignore them until the game is basically over.
Consequence is, you are stuck with 3-card-hands the whole game while he is drawing big parts of his deck. I probably would have bought first Goons over Margrave too, but not doing so was the great winning move.

In game 9, you wonder how he managed to get the engine going while you didn't, with similar play. After turn 7, the decks are the same but one curse he has more. Afterwards, I don't understand your play. While he trashes a remake into a witch and buys a worker's village, you buy...another remake? Followed by a remake next turn, too? You really want every possible card draw and cycling with these trim decks and all the fishing villages. Consequently, he reshuffled on turn 9 and twice during turn 11 and 12, while you only reshuffled on turn 10 and 12, and you lose the curse war badly. I would have gotten a Council Room here, maybe even instead of a second witch.

If I needed to summarize these two games, I would say you underestimate the importance of card draw and cycling in these kind of games where it isn't as obvious, where even a single +3 card or some +2 and +1 cards really matter. How to trim the deck when you got a remake in hand, but no card draw to get to those coppers and curses?

In game 12, how can two watchtowers slow him down more than young witch slow down you if he trashes the curses? Watchtower played is at least 2 cards, even more when he apprentices copper, allowing him to topdecking nice cards. Young Witch is...2 cards.
I also don't understand why you upgrade an expand into a province and expand the province into a colony so early.
Indeed, he ends up winning the curse war and the game with a much more trim deck. Why did you opt for Provinces here?

Funny thing, I have the feeling that pretty much every time (late Familiar, Saboteurs, this Margrave, maybe even early Throne Room even with the risk that it might be drawn dead) you comment that one of his strategic moves seems to be a mistake/bad play, this move turns out to be part of why he is winning.

Furthermore, I got the impression that in engine games, you seem to buy the engine parts pretty randomly (like let's pick up this, and that). Is this true, or does it only look like it?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 11:47:40 am by def »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2012, 08:50:13 am »
+1

Ok, some overall comments. I think my biggest problem is that I'm playing too quickly. Not in the sense that I'm missing what he's doing - if I do, that's where you see me scroll up, and it looks like I do that really quickly, but I see what he did, and that's enough. But what I mean is that I'm not thinking and planning enough, and the big thing is that I'm not adjusting to his strategies enough. Probably this is a consequence of playing way too much, and so going at a lightning speed all the time. I'm playing BM like I would against another BM player, and I think usually against his engines, I need to do more build up, and BM-playing isn't necessarily my problem. Of course, part of the issue is that going BM often IS my problem, and he's a top-notch engine builder. And actually, his unique skill, from my view, is the ability to prolong the games in order to give his engine time to be worth it. What else? Most of my disparaging comments are due to my own frustration; this is about as frustrated as I get, certainly the most frustrated I get over something like this game. Like, I actually think that he played the first game quite badly, and after this, a couple mistakes for sure that I can point out to you (throne room as first action, not ending the game when he could with a lead, which he did I think twice, maybe in the same game? Not that I blame him so much for the first one, it was actually sort of tricky, just I saw it while sitting there being tortured by his endless turns; the second one is the outpost thing, and yeah, it's idiotic to take an outpost turn when you can end game with a win in your normal turn, because maybe you won't be able to in your outpost turn, apart from it being just sort of a running up the score deal), but most of the time where I'm saying 'I don't like that' I mean 'I don't like that' and not 'I'm sure this is bad.' My big issue is that apparently I don't like some things that are really, really good.
Shark_Bait - yeah, this is an issue. Though I would like to point out that part of my strategy was predicated on guessing that he is going to hit my duchies or SR, and so I planned for this by over-greening a bit. Then he hits the TR and I'm left stuck in a bit of a rut. Also, hitting duchy or SR gives something back that's going to be a lot more useful than the copper.
philosophyguy - excellent! I must agree with you here. The gardens I actually miscounted for, and thought that I had like 10 fewer cards than I actually did. But not looking to end the game right is something that plagues me for sure. I will get to a big lead, and then I usually go for the most points, because most often, your best bet of insulating your lead is to just make it bigger, if you can't end the game immediately. But there are some cases, like here where he's building a mega engine, that that isn't true, and you need to forego bigger leads to look for ending the game, and I seem to be not so hot at that, at least I wasn't in this match.
paddyodoors - definitely not just an off day, this seems to happen every time I play the guy. I actually even gained rating points yesterday despite this thrashing, probably from knocking off AVeryHappyFish a couple times at the end of the day. Also, I did have gardens in mind when picking up that explorer.
About the CR logs, they should be up now (it's much easier to do them for a big string of games like this or a tourney series than for my random games I post, which I have to hunt for out of thousands of logs...), but they didn't exist when you guys were posting the comments :)
def, I'm not just picking stuff up randomly. BUT, I'm not at all the best at getting my components in the right order.
Rest of the stuff seems mostly game specific, which is going to mean - A New Post (and hopefully, A New Hope).

WanderingWinder

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2012, 09:06:39 am »
+1

Game 1: I have first turn advantage. And I know what I'm doing, using the woodcutter/smugglers to try to power a duchy/SR kind of strategy. I actually expect him to build an engine here from FV/Steward/woodcutter, maybe wishing well, possession, HoP. But I think he needs lots of FV to pull that off probably, which will give me time to pile out. As it turns out, he fights me seeming to me a little half-heartedly, for SR, loses that fight, and doesn't really know what he's doing with the develop and steward stuff, getting a HoP later when there's like no time left... not sure what he was going for really. And I close out rather comfortable.

Game 2: I expected I needed a lone silver (wasn't planning on getting more) to get up to $5 reliably for my margraves and festivals (don't know why I thought Festival should be so important here, farming village is probably just largely better). OTOH, I do get 4/4 which is not so great, and... basically he has his engine fully up and running turn 7. I don't think that was possible for me. So probably I didn't build right (caravan looks conspicuously bad) but with him nailing me every turn with that margrave, it's also basically impossible for me to catch up - he trashes down quite nicely with the upgrade, while my 3 card hands don't afford me that luxury. How do I build the engine here? Though I have a feeling that off the 4/4 turns 3 and 4, together with his first turn advantage and sizable skill at building these kinds of engines, I'm pretty toast anyway.

Game 3: Hmph. I actually like my strategy here. Maybe I shouldn't have sacrificed my economy quite so fast? But I don't need much more luck here to win this close game. Don't think I misplayed this too too much, though I'm sure I could have done a little better. Maybe I needed to take the cards on my last turn? I don't know, I was counting on his inability to make 8 AND 5, and I think he probably most often can't.

Game 4: This one really gets my goat. Yes, I should probably build an engine at some point here. On the other hand, you just don't buy TR as your first action, and man he seemed to go overboard at the end of the game, making it last about 5 minutes longer than it needed to.

Game 5: Eh, relatively well-played again, I think. A bit disappointed that I don't get a straight win here, as I don't really like oasis here, and I knew my deck was a good bit stronger (more golds) than his...

Game 6: I'm a bit slow to pick up fishing villages here, perhaps, though I don't think that's such a big deal. I actually think I was doing fine if I grab gardens over duchies when I should. Hmm

Comments on the second half later today.

ARTjoMS

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2012, 09:36:33 am »
0

You are somewhat too dogmatical.

marin feels like he thinks more of his own rather follow some previously walked path.

Although he tried to convince me that double ambassador is almost always better than amb silver... which I think is false.

 I'm also running bad against him, but sample size not big + i'm sure some of them were luckbox wins.
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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2012, 11:32:57 am »
0

Game 7: Another head-scratcher for me. I'd like to put it down to lucky saboteuring - best thing would be to hit silvers. But ok, he also played well. FV is a nice complement for ambassador, and just for whatever reason I stalled out hard. I think there's something more going on here, and I'm not sure what it is.

Game 8: I get gobs and gobs of luck. I think trying to use moat to defend is going to be a little weak here, like I say in the video, especially getting FIVE of them, but you know, it should still probably get close. We'd expect that I'd get one or two of those curses through still, though definitely not the bajillion I did.

Game 9: Can someone explain how I lose the curse war 8-2? Yes, I probably over-buy remake, but with so many FVs, I'm looking to get the 5-cost draw cards, which just never happens for me really until it's way too late.

Game 10: Here I'm distinctly outplayed. So the reason I don't like margrave is that it looks like an engine deck, and for engine decks, margrave attack lets you choose three out of 6, which is not THAT much worse than random $5, especially with the goons attack already coming in. However, there's more going on here. Double and treble goons are how this game is going to get won, and card draw gives you the best chance at that. But you know, it's hard for me to buy that margrave over the goons, because goons is really that important card to make it all work. Except, you know, I think Bazaar is really the super important card. If I take the time to win the bazaar war, then it's going to be really hard for him to get much chain off. And actually, if you notice, it's really close until he starts triple goons-ing, which is really hard for me to do (although sometimes, sometimes I still ought to be able to) without much draw and only having three card hands. So I think he's slightly lucky to always get the chain he needs after his 3 card hands, and I'm slightly unlucky with what I draw off my bazaars, but even so, I'm going to lose this 90% of the time, at least, being so outplayed.

Game 11: Well, I feel I got lucky and also first-turn. I know that goons into IGG is better than straight IGG, but man I don't hit $5 often. I don't actually like hitting the early province (I'd rather get a more evened-out draw), but I think I need to take it. And then I'm quite lucky to get the late one, which helps out a lot. Though I think my first turn and extra goons would have at least made it a game anyway.

Game 12: Another actually really close one. You guys notice I'm actually in the lead most of the way here? His deck's a lot stronger at the end, but I do not need so so much more luck to put me over the top. Also, his first turn helps. But the big thing is, I can't stand getting $8 so often in colony games. Now, I know I should be getting the expands over provinces more early on, this is a pretty significant effect. But I do think that sometimes, you're better off grabbing provinces than golds on 6. Just hard to tell when that is exactly. Hmm. Also probably a problem I have that I rage up a bit at the 8 draws and don't do what I know is usually that right play of buying the cheaper thing. Though upgrade and expand help out the buy-the-most-expensive-thing-you-can philosophy here.

def

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2012, 11:50:04 am »
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Game 9: Can someone explain how I lose the curse war 8-2?

I think I did that, though I accidentally mislabeled my comments as belonging to game 8, but I changed that now.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2012, 11:57:13 am »
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Game 7: Another head-scratcher for me. I'd like to put it down to lucky saboteuring - best thing would be to hit silvers. But ok, he also played well. FV is a nice complement for ambassador, and just for whatever reason I stalled out hard. I think there's something more going on here, and I'm not sure what it is.

Game 9: Can someone explain how I lose the curse war 8-2? Yes, I probably over-buy remake, but with so many FVs, I'm looking to get the 5-cost draw cards, which just never happens for me really until it's way too late.
I think game 7 is an instance where you fail to adjust to your opponent.  I think moat is a lot better here than normal.  Sure we cannot predict the saboteur (although with silk roads, it's not that far fetched), but it would be great to shield off ambassadors.  You grab all these fishing villages with no actual action to play with, the moat seems pretty ideal (definitely 1 early, and grab more with your hypothetical trade routes +buys)

Game 9: essentially buying non-stop remakes was your downfall.  The not getting witch definitely hurt with his two remakes that shuffle, but you clog your deck with remake/fishing village which doesn't allow you to expand your hand size (which ideally remake wants to trash the correct things).  Also the turn where you buy your first province, as if you were comfortably in the lead? Probably should've remaked coppers and bought a council room (I mean were you really nervous that the extra card would help him?)  The way I see it was at the game had three stages: remake/trashing, cursing, then greening.  He focuses by buying a second witch with his thin deck, you kinda jump the second step altogether hoping that one witch was enough.  8-2 might be a bit much, but 7-3 seems reasonable.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 12:03:36 pm by RisingJaguar »
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WanderingWinder

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Re: WW needs help - how does Marin do it?
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2012, 12:10:45 pm »
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Game 7: Another head-scratcher for me. I'd like to put it down to lucky saboteuring - best thing would be to hit silvers. But ok, he also played well. FV is a nice complement for ambassador, and just for whatever reason I stalled out hard. I think there's something more going on here, and I'm not sure what it is.

Game 9: Can someone explain how I lose the curse war 8-2? Yes, I probably over-buy remake, but with so many FVs, I'm looking to get the 5-cost draw cards, which just never happens for me really until it's way too late.
I think game 7 is an instance where you fail to adjust to your opponent.  I think moat is a lot better here than normal.  Sure we cannot predict the saboteur (although with silk roads, it's not that far fetched), but it would be great to shield off ambassadors.  You grab all these fishing villages with no actual action to play with, the moat seems pretty ideal (definitely 1 early, and grab more with your hypothetical trade routes +buys)
So here's one of my big problems. I wanted to buy more moats. I did. But when to do it? I was planning on doing it with those trade route buys - this did not happen. And then do I need moat more than the VP cards, or more than the money at $3? Maybe I do, really, but it's hard for me to think that. And actually, you talk about blocking the ambassadors. But I WANT the coppers and estates, the curses he doesn't do until later, I won't be able to block them reliably, and by then, do they really hurt THAT much? Maybe so, but I think that's mostly because he's killed any economy I have to end the game. But the FVs were with the intention of using the actions on moats and trade routes, yes.

Quote
Game 9: essentially buying non-stop remakes was your downfall.  The not getting witch definitely hurt with his two remakes that shuffle, but you clog your deck with remake/fishing village which doesn't allow you to expand your hand size (which ideally remake wants to trash the correct things).  Also the turn where you buy your first province, as if you were comfortably in the lead? Probably should've remaked coppers and bought a council room (I mean were you really nervous that the extra card would help him?)  The way I see it was at the game had three stages: remake/trashing, cursing, then greening.  He focuses by buying a second witch and a thin deck, you kinda jump the step altogether hoping that one witch was enough.  8-2 might be a bit much, but 7-3 seems reasonable.
Yeah, but what do I buy instead? I don't understand your last comment, as I get three witches? My instinct was that I needed more card draw, and this is in fact why I got the remakes, to remake them into the 5s. I never get the chance for buying more 5s really, though you're right about the province. But actually the whole point of the province buy, which is exactly what I say in the video, and what you see me do very soon after in the log, is remake it into a platinum. So it's not at all about giving me a safe lead. Now, maybe you're right, and I should trash down and get draw. But I do actually think those cards are helping him at that point, yes.
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