Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - silverspawn

Filter to certain boards:

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 801
51
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 08, 2024, 02:29:47 pm »
To be clear, I'm not saying [(1) morality is this divine concept that exists as a human-independent truth, and (2) I have discovered that this concept in fact reflects valence].

I am saying that morality isn't a real thing/only a meaningless concept made up by humans. I'm saying there are no moral rules or principles that exist human-independently and can be discovered. However, I think valence is a real thing. Separately, I think it seems to be the case that most people's views of morality align pretty closely with valence. But that doesn't make the concept of morality any more meaningful. My philosophical views wouldn't change at all if people's ideas of morality were not related to valence. The connection just means that I approve of moral rules for practical purposes.

In a nutshell, I'm a valence realist but ethical nihilist about literally every other ethical principle.

52

53
Well it's your card, but at $4 w/o the action it's busted. and this is a card where powerlevel is an issue since it's spammable.

54
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 07, 2024, 05:46:53 am »
Can confirm from experience that doing complicated discussions on mobile is not the way

55
Goat is sad

Listing Goat in A tier was wrong but it's definitely not sad. non-terminally +1 Card, +1 Action, trash a card (which is basically what this is) is quite strong. If Rats didn't give you another rats people would be all over it. And turning into a different card later is a premium upgrade for a trasher.

Otherwise I agree with basically all of your posts on this topic. It think we disagree just a little in that I estimate Horse Trainer's power to be a little higher than you (I think the +buy would be pushing it), I think because I suspect the variety adds a lot.

56
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 06, 2024, 11:20:35 am »
The one thing about my view of morality that's pretty new is the argument that if you look closely enough, most people's views are in fact tied to valence, even if on the surface it totally looks like they don't. I think you'd struggle to find a clean counter-example, although it's not impossible.

57
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 06, 2024, 11:14:03 am »
Haven't responded to this yet:

Non-metaphysical objective laws of morality don't make sense to me, at least sans a creator or guided evolution. If morality is unchanging (which we suppose it to be when judging the sins of history), it must have existed before humans evolved. What made humanity evolve to give us the qualia of pre-existing moral laws, which are common to all men? And if moral laws evolved alongside us, in what way can it be objective, other than in the way that we have it in common?

So I think qualia tell us something about the universe because it is evolutionary useful to have a helpful model of the environment. They admittedly also tell us about aspects of the universe that it's not evolutionarily helpful to know, but that's not that surprising; evolution just figured out a general truth-seeking process. Which is very flawed, but still general.

As far as morality goes, I just deny that this is a real thing. I think valence, which is how good any one moment of consciousness feels, is a real thing, and I think it makes sense to try to increase the valence in the universe. I personally try to do that. I think literally every other aspect of morality is a human invention and completely meaningless (except insofar as it correlates with valence, which actually it almost always does, so in practice a lot of morality tends to be great, but nonetheless I deny that it has any non-valence-related meaning).

Thankfully (from my perspective) the trends of moral progress, by and large, seems to be going toward higher valence. E.g., slavery is bad for net valence and now we don't have slavery anymore. Torture is super ultra bad for net valence and now we have much less torture. Factory Farming is super extra ultra bad for net valence and we seem to be on a trajectory to get rid of it maybe? Gay marriage is good for net valence and we have gay marriage now. Etc. There's counter-examples but on the whole that seems to be the trend.

Very few people like this view or morality because it's incredibly reductive, but that's my honest view, and that's why I don't feel a need to invoke religion

58
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 06, 2024, 07:03:08 am »
Btw if I Trump wanted to win, he should absolutely pick Nikki Haley for VP, and then he should subtly hint that maybe he won't make it the full term and Haley could become president so as to give moderate Republicans an incentive to vote for him. Fortunately he has way too much of an ego to do that. It's almost like he's not actually politically smart!

59
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 06, 2024, 06:56:24 am »
Of course Trump is still overvalued; now that polling has leveled, he's just way behind in the fundamentals and arguably on a negative polling trajectory

60
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 06, 2024, 06:55:06 am »



61
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 06, 2024, 05:34:56 am »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGRvuH8nH-M

where has this been all my life? *-*

62
Cool idea but way too strong. Gaining a horse is +1 Card value; playing a card as a way is about +2 Cards value (probably more since you have choice?). And then you have +1 Action. So this is probably stronger than +1 Card, +3 Actions. Just cutting the +1 Action might make it okay.

A Way may be worth about +2 Cards on a terminal. But when added to a card that already gives +1 Action like this creation, +2 Cards is one of the very best Ways. So, this line of reasoning for why the card is overpowered does not seem correct.

Mh, true. Maybe it's fine as is then?

Actually now I'm sort of curious, let me go through the list of all ways. I'd say

S tier (busted): Mouse, Otter, Squirrel, Turtle
A tier (very strong): Goat, Horse, Pig,

and then the rest ranges from meh (Monkey) to totally useless (Rat)

The probability to get an S-tier card is almost exactly 50%, and the probability to get at least an S or A tier is almost exactly 75%. So I think I'm back on this being too strong. Don't underestimate the value of switching, either; there are various ways that didn't make it in A tier like Mole that are situationally extremely strong.  I still think I like just cutting the +Action best. If you can fix something by removing complexity, why do something else? If you want to, you could make it cost 5$ after cutting the +Action.

Quote
How would the card be if it cost 5 and you HAD to switch ways?

too strong and even swingier; the penalty of having to switch totally depends on the set of ways. I don't think that's the way to nerf them. (And btw "Horse" and I think also "Way" should both be uppercase.)

Edit: That said, in a meaningful fraction games with this card, after the Ways are revealed the card is going to be overpowered. For example, you're very likely to buy multiples of this card in the presence of Way of the Otter (the +2 Cards Way). That doesn't make for the most interesting gameplay, even if the card is not consistently essential.

That's not actually unusual for official cards though; plenty of cards are above the general powerlevel bar on specific boards. I think that's fine.

Anyway I like the design of the card a lot aside from the powerlevel, it sounds super fun.

63
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 04, 2024, 06:39:49 pm »

64
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 04, 2024, 06:30:16 pm »
Many years back I was dibbling in German wikis that are parodies of Wikipedia -- basically a wiki where every article is just supposed to be funny.

I'm reminded of this because the wikipedia entry on Stormy Daniels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stormy_Daniels reads like it could be a parody. Alas it is not.

And this is apparently the only of Trump's criminal trials that will start pretty soon, so it's kinda a big deal.

65
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 04, 2024, 06:04:01 pm »
Damn look at this. Polling average is now officially tied.


66
Cool idea but way too strong. Gaining a horse is +1 Card value; playing a card as a way is about +2 Cards value (probably more since you have choice?). And then you have +1 Action. So this is probably stronger than +1 Card, +3 Actions. Just cutting the +1 Action might make it okay.

67
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 04, 2024, 05:37:52 pm »
sorry to interrupt the conversation flow but yeah go Biden woooo!!


68
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 04, 2024, 01:25:39 pm »
(Btw h/t to faust who was the first person to make me realize that objective idealism isn't actually stupid :) )

69
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 04, 2024, 01:18:57 pm »
Then as for (1), this is gonna sound more esoteric (and it's also not that practically relevant). But I disagree with the premise; I do think that a complete causal understanding of the brain would answer all questions about consciousness. I don't see how it couldn't since it has to explain exactly why people claim they have consciousness in the first place.

So at a super basic level, you could ask what kind of stuff the universe is made of (this wasn't your question, but it'll lead to an answer). The position I usually defend is called dual-aspect monism, which says that there's one kind of stuff with two aspects, the material aspect and the conscious aspect. This sounds the least woo and gives the right framework for the studying the problem, like you need to find a deep connection between physical causality and what consciousness is doing.

But an alternative way you could go about it is just to say, everything is consciousness. So the electromagnetic field just is a field of consciousness. This sounds radical, but actually it amounts to the same thing because even if the EM field just is consciousness, well as long as consciousness is lawful (and I definitely think it is), you should still be able to study it from a distance and derive laws for how it evolves. And, well, that's Marxwell's equations, i.e., a part of the laws of physics. So you don't need to postulate some kind of non-conscious stuff in addition to conscious stuff to explain the appearance of matter and the laws of physics; you get the laws of physics just by virtue of studying the causal behavior of a thing. Mathematical equation is just what it looks like if you describe something only in terms of causality.

So that's the model that I think is ultimately most philosophically robust -- the fields of physics are the fields of consciousness period. And I think that does come back to your question/claim because if the EM field just is a field of consciousness, then it yeah understanding it fully would fully explain consciousness. consciousness doesn't arise from the field; they're the same thing.

Technically this means that a computer has nonzero consciousness since it uses the EM field, but the consciousness isn't unified so it amounts to the same thing. The phrase "mind dust" is sometimes used. Basically it reframes everything from "is this conscious" to "how connected is consciousness here". In almost all cases the answer is "it's incredibly disconnected into billions of miniscule bits". So everything is technically minimally conscious but this has no practical implications. Like yes there are charged particles in a tree so there is consciousness a tree, but the tree doesn't form a unified entity, and it makes no difference if you hack it in two. It was a billion disconnected pieces of mind dust before and it's the same after. Only stuff with nontrivial electromagnetic effects have unified and hence nontrivial pieces of consciousness. Like humans and probably almost all animals.

70
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 04, 2024, 01:02:25 pm »
(btw thanks for asking, I've thought about this a ton of times but every time I try to structure an argument again I find that it was helpful.)

71
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 04, 2024, 01:00:50 pm »
Ok so I'm gonna try to tie #2 and #3 together. This is not how I'd try to convince someone who starts out skeptical but it's more constructive than just focusing on paradoxes.

I think the best starting point is thinking about computation, specifically what you are using to compute. If physicalism is true then all computation must be based on physical mechanisms in the broadest sense, and if so, we can roughly differentiate between physical complexity, which is how complex of a mechanism you use, and logical complexity, which is how many of your mechanisms you are chaining together. I've made this graphic for an article a few weeks ago that illustrates this:



So one extreme case is what I call standard computation, which is where you use ultra primitive mechanisms but you go apeshit in how complex your logical arrangement of those is. All digital computers (and actually analog computers as well) fall into that category. Your only mechanisms are two different voltage levels to differentiate two states, and some wire designs to implement binary logic on those two states. That is almost literally it (I think some marginally more complex physical pieces exist in some computers). Standard computation is also the only thing that's analyzed under "theory of computation" in mathematics. Like computability, turing machines, complexity theory, all of that stuff assumes that you have a very basic set of operations that you can combine in arbitrarily complex ways.

Then nonstadard computation is just everything else. Clever mechanical divices for integration, a soap bubble that "computes" a spherical shape, a wire whose surface you make repulsive such that it self-untangles, clever arrangements of coupled oscillators, and also the EM field.

My claim then would be that standard computation cannot support consciousness. It doesn't matter whether it's analog or digital or based on electricity or water; the important feature is that you have a set of extremely primitive physical mechanisms and all the complexity comes in at how you chain them together. And the way to see that this doesn't support consciousness is just that it fundamentally doesn't have the right properties.

So for example, consciousness seems to have objective, discrete boundaries. There's a set of qualia in your consciousness, and a different set in mine, and they're perfectly split. If we start interacting, they remain perfectly split. That gives you two paradoxes, one is that no qualia sharing takes place even though we causally interact, and the other more fundamental one is that it doesn't even seem logically coherent for partial merging. Like, any quale can either belong to one set or the other and not both, but the degree of functional integration between systems seems to be a spectrum. (Btw, qualia are just literally all components of your consciousness, tactice, visual, etc; anything and everything you perceive is a quale or set of qualia.) This is called the boundary problem, or binding problem, or combination problem.

Another issue is that consciousness seems to have inherent content. Like, red looks a certain way, a harmonic chord sounds a certain way, and more subtly, all qualia seem to be valenced (i.e., feel good or bad). You can't bootstrap yourself toward that with standard computation because you start from empty content (just two abstract states) and you can't ever get from there to nonempty content. (I think this argument is very unpersuasive to people not already sympathetic to this idea, but  I do think it's true.)

Yet another problem is that standard computation, since it's entirely based on abstract states, is fundamentally dependent on interpretation. Like, suppose a digital computer were conscious and right now would experience pain. All that's actually happening at the physical level is that data strings are moved around (i.e., sequences of bits, which physically are sets of pieces on a wire that either have around 1V or 2V). But presumably the consciousness (so the felt pain in this case) is frame-invariant (i.e., it is one way regardless of who interprets it). So how does that work? Does the universe try to interpret what's going on by looking at the surrounding system? That doesn't sound like something that could be an actual law. Does it depend on the system's counterfactual response to other inputs? If so then you have more to work with, but now consciousness depends on counterfactuals, which physics does not, so you lose connection between consciousness and causality. Mike Johnson had this thought experiment where he just said, suppose I shake a bag of popcorn, did I just torture someone? It's difficult to argue that the answer is no since there would be an interpretation of the atoms in the bag and how they correspond to informational states that makes the computation represent the simulation of someone who is experiencing pain. So this whole strand of argument is called the interpretation problem and seems altogether impossible to resolve.

I think the underlying problem behind all this is that small discrete objects are just the wrong level of interpretation. If consciousness is supposed to be operating within the laws of physics, then there must be a deep connection between the laws of physics and the laws of consciousness. In fact they should be isomorphic, i.e., equivalent in a deep mathematical sense. Certainly what they say about causality should be exactly equivalent. But the laws of physics are written over fundamental forces and fields, so the laws of consciousness must be as well. That means any approach that first tries to round everything to an ontology of discrete computational elements like logical 1s or 0s (or rational numbers in case of analog computers) is just inherently doomed, and all the problems above and various others are just ways at pointing at consequences of this disconnect. You have to analyze consciousness at the lowest possible level, the same as physics.

And well then the EM field is pretty much the only candidate. It's one of the fundamental fields in the standard model, and all of the others seem like non-starters. It solves the interpretation problem because it deals in physical forces rather than abstract codes that need to be interpreted, and there is this physical phenomenon where the field lines can form a topologically closed shape that makes it causally separate from the rest of the field, which solves the boundary problem.

72
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 04, 2024, 12:18:47 pm »
EM theory
It does make a lot of sense that the brain should work this way, although I don't think that it is the entire picture. If you exhaustively studied EM field computation and patterns in the brain, you still wouldn't be able to understand consciousness physically. What differentiates EM field patterns and computation from digital computation in such a drastic way as to give the first capability to experience but not the second?

So, I think there are three separate questions here, which I would rephrase like this:

1. To what extent would a complete causal understanding of the brain, including the EM field, explain the phenomenal aspect of consciousness? (In other words, does the EM field theory solve the hard problem?)

2. What's the evidence that digital computation doesn't support consciousness?

3. If in fact #2 is true, then why is it that digital computation doesn't support consciousness and the EM field does?

Questions #2 and #3 sound almost identical but actually my answer would be very different. Because a lot of the case for #2 is either empirical (i.e., from comparing computational properties of consciousness and unconscious human processing and digital processing, it seems like the last two are similar and  the first is different) or based on totally non-constructive arguments (like, assume digital computers could be conscious, here is how I derive a contradiction). Then once you have these arguments, you can see that they don't apply to the EM field, but that still doesn't really answer #3.

Gonna take a moment to think about how to best address these without writing several thousand words

73
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 04, 2024, 07:01:18 am »
It's actually kind of funny how much the EM theory pattern-matches with religious or otherwise dualistic conceptions of the mind, especially before you read the footnotes. Like, it gives humans a special thing that computers don't have* **, it makes the mind non-material***, it implies that consciousness works very differently from the type of computation that's studied in computer science****, and it even rescues the naive idea of consciousness as this thing you put into a system, rather than a necessary byproduct of intelligence, which is the respectable adult view. But it's still perfectly compatible with physicalism.

* but other animals do, probably even insects
** but you could absolutely build conscious computers, we're just not currently doing it
*** but 100% physical
**** but the type of computation is still completely deterministic

74
Non-Mafia Game Threads / Re: The Necro Wars
« on: April 04, 2024, 06:50:21 am »
But if I had to make one argument against the thesis, the fact that outside fields don't have any measurable effect would be it.

Correct: I meant no consciously perceived effects. You can probably measure them using neurotech, but they don't seem to affect consciousness.

75
^ Interesting card. This completely nukes various engines like village/rabble, but of course you can play around that.

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 801

Page created in 0.229 seconds with 18 queries.