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Messages - ta56636

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1
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Just a quick victory card idea:
« on: June 15, 2014, 06:23:10 pm »
3?

I mean, it can trash the curses it gives out. But until then it's only +2VP to your deck and junks a bit as well. Maybe a better option is 2VP + Copper?

Yeah - this is quite a nice idea, and perhaps fixes some of the other comments.  It would be nice if it was sometimes viable as an opening buy/rush card.  Maybe even 3VP + Copper ...  Or maybe 1/2VP and gain a card upto $2.

Actually I quite like that option:

Action/Victory $4

+1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand.
------
2 VP
When you gain this, gain a card up to $2


Viable as an opening as only trashing on the board, or with good $2 card synergy perhaps.

This version can auto-pile with two highways in play, which is likely to be problematic on a victory card.

Maybe either:
When you gain this, gain a card costing upto $2 less than it. (you could still auto pile with 4 highways/2 quarries, but that seems less of an issue)
Or change it to an on buy effect...

2
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Just a quick victory card idea:
« on: June 15, 2014, 05:30:23 pm »
3?

I mean, it can trash the curses it gives out. But until then it's only +2VP to your deck and junks a bit as well. Maybe a better option is 2VP + Copper?

Yeah - this is quite a nice idea, and perhaps fixes some of the other comments.  It would be nice if it was sometimes viable as an opening buy/rush card.  Maybe even 3VP + Copper ...  Or maybe 1/2VP and gain a card upto $2.

Actually I quite like that option:

Action/Victory $4

+1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand.
------
2 VP
When you gain this, gain a card up to $2


Viable as an opening as only trashing on the board, or with good $2 card synergy perhaps.

3
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Just a quick victory card idea:
« on: June 15, 2014, 03:24:35 pm »
you should compare it to island, both are action/victory and get rid of bad cards

your card:
after buy: +2 bad cards
after first play: +1 bad card
after second play: --
after third play: -1 bad card

island:
after buy: +1 bad card
after first play: -1 bad card
after second play: ---

so, your card is as good as an island after you played it 3 times.

There is a problem with a sort of contradicting concept. The card is a trasher, and as such it will be bought if you have lots of time to invest for a long game, and in these games the fact that it's a victory card is likely not to matter much. alas, better trashers like forager, masquerade, or even lookout are almost aways preferable.
Though, long games often end early in a 3-pile ending. It could matter. But the self-junking on gain is so bad that I don't think you'd ever want to buy this card before the Curse pile is empty.

Even at e.g. 6VP?

4
Variants and Fan Cards / Just a quick victory card idea:
« on: June 15, 2014, 01:22:19 pm »
Action/Victory $4

+1 Action
You may trash a card from your hand.
------
X VP
When you gain this, gain a curse.


Is it interesting?
What would the correct value of X be?

5
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Card Idea: Pauper
« on: June 05, 2014, 06:02:43 am »
I don't yet have a name for this card. I didn't design it with either Crossroads or Poor House in mind, but it ended up looking a bit like both. Let me know what you think:

Pauper
Types: Action
Cost: $5
+1 Buy. Reveal your hand. +1 Card per non-Treasure revealed.

Really weak early on, but stacks like crazy if you can manage to chain them. Converting your deck from the Treasure-based deck it starts with to an Action-based deck takes effort, so I'm hoping this card's potential power is balanced by the work it takes to achieve that power, ( la Scrying Pool, Herald, etc.).

EDIT: Thanks to Robz, I now have a name for the card.

Just a quick thought: in order to prevent the potential craziness in slimmed down engine decks could you make it per unique non-Treasure card.  In which case it could probably cost 4 or maybe even 3??

6
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Procession and Embargo Variants
« on: May 19, 2014, 07:06:59 pm »
The wording for Sanction is confusing.  For instance, some of your below-the-line clauses don't have subjects, so I'm not sure who performs the actions.  You should look at how Donald phrases effects on similar cards.

Sorry - tried to copy of Embargo: is this better (I had tried to avoid "player plays" before)?

When a player plays a card with a Sanction token on it they return it to the supply. They then choose one per Sanction token: +2 Cards; or +2 Actions; or +$2

This also doesn't work. There are never any tokens on the card being played.

When a player plays an Action card, if there are any Sanction tokens on its pile,

Ah - much better - thank you

7
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Procession and Embargo Variants
« on: May 19, 2014, 11:28:01 am »
The wording for Sanction is confusing.  For instance, some of your below-the-line clauses don't have subjects, so I'm not sure who performs the actions.  You should look at how Donald phrases effects on similar cards.

Sorry - tried to copy of Embargo: is this better (I had tried to avoid "player plays" before)?

When a player plays a card with a Sanction token on it they return it to the supply. They then choose one per Sanction token: +2 Cards; or +2 Actions; or +$2

8
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Procession and Embargo Variants
« on: May 19, 2014, 09:30:28 am »
Any thoughts on these before I print them out and give them a try?

9
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Procession and Embargo Variants
« on: May 17, 2014, 04:48:46 pm »
Man, any game with both Succession and Procession would be insane.

Possibly (it does sound fun anyway).  Although I imagine that the deck might bloat making it more difficult to connect the cards you wanted to...

I do wonder whether it should be: Gain two copies of an *Action* Card costing 1 less than it.

Otherwise you might end up forced to pick up estates if you use it on an 3 and there's no 2s in the kingdom.  Although playing it on a 3 is probably pretty undesirable anyway and it would take away some utility (6s into double duchy late in game, or 4s into double silver).  Maybe best as it is...

10
Variants and Fan Cards / Procession and Embargo Variants
« on: May 16, 2014, 04:43:39 pm »
Code: [Select]
Succession
$4 Action

You may plan an Action card from your hand twice.  Trash it.  Gain two copies of a Card costing 1 less than it.

Hopefully fairly clear: Half procession, half stonemason.  I think it's possibly stronger as a $4 than as a $3 due to self synergy.


Code: [Select]
Sanction
$2 Action

Choose one: +2 Cards; or +2 Actions; or +$2

Trash this card.  Put a Sanction token on top of a Kingdom pile.

-------

If anyone plays a card with a Sanction token on it: Return it to the supply. Then then choose one per Sanction token: +2 Cards; or +2 Actions; or +$2

Hopefully clear.  I'm aiming for something that you can either try to scupper your opponent with (forcing them to return a key engine component to the supply), or help you by building up a powerful one-shot card.

I'm slightly expecting it to be broken in some way though!  (it's return to the supply rather than trash to stop it being broken with Fortress)

11
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: May 10, 2014, 05:32:27 am »
I was just being hilarious dude. If you spelled apologize with a z you would never think I'd been offended there. (I am saying that Americans are rude (it's either that, or I'm some kind of monster).)

Oh - that's good :)

Hopefully one last less controversial question.  Which do you think is more skilful 2 player or 3 player dominion?  Do you ever think people get a bit blinkered by only considering cards in the 2 player game?

12
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: May 07, 2014, 05:52:48 pm »
Exactly.  I was also probing whether it is possible to make a philosophical leap between different types of 'reward' loop behaviour.
You're just saying that because of the tiny thrill each completed post gives you.

I have clearly offended you - I apologise for that, it was not my intent.

I'll make one final post on the subject to try and clarify what I was trying to say and then leave it.

In Diablo II (a game not dissimilar to Fallout 3), you could argue that you are conditioned to expect meaningful loot when you kill a monster (normally by repeatedly clicking).  At the start of the game this happens every few minutes.  As the game progresses the intervals become longer and longer, and yet you keep clicking.  Obviously there are many more levels to it then that (and of course the world exploration and game mechanics make a more complex scenario), but I still believe there is a underlying comparison to the skinner box.

I'm not sure where I went wrong in this discussion, and how it became so sour, but I will try and work it out. :)

13
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: May 07, 2014, 03:40:46 pm »
I don't think ta56636 was referring to Farmville-style mechanics or a pay-to-win system: what he meant is, a really successful single-player game rewards the player through a positive feedback loop.  For example: in an RPG, success means your character keeps leveling up and gains access to more powerful things, allowing you to experience even more success. 

Exactly.  I was also probing whether it is possible to make a philosophical leap between different types of 'reward' loop behaviour.

Well feel free to outline somewhere exactly what you'd like to see in online Dominion. The Making Fun guys may well be interested.

How can I resist that?  To quote a quote from my Facebook feed this morning "The absence of proper research, however, need not stop us ..." (ie. I know I don't really know what I'm talking about.)

That said: It's really tempting to look at what you should do now (e.g. delete adventure mode, remove game lobbies, etc. etc.)

However I think it's actually more interesting to think what would you want the final product to look like.

Off the top of my head I'd be aiming for something like:

Casual Play (including vs. AI, Friends and predetermined kingdoms)
Ranked Play
and maybe one other well crafted game mode

Crucially beyond that (and I look at the dominion community - and I see an absurd amount of programming talent per capita), and I'd be focusing very heavily on enabling user generated content (be it new game modes, new cards, tournament structures, complete game overhauls etc.) that then could be sold with the developer and the creator taking a cut each.

Within this I'd be looking at:
A total cost of around 10-15 for paid content
An iPad/android version (mainly to finance the above)
Rotating 'free' cards (like league of legends free heroes) to enable a taste for all players beyond the base game
An exist strategy (one of the main reasons I haven't bought more than a couple of expansions in Goko, is that I simply don't trust that one day in the not too distant future it simply won't be there)

Pie in the sky: probably.  But then we can all dream...

14
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: May 07, 2014, 04:14:48 am »
Although I realise that the online Dominion is nothing to do with you, I also think it offers a clear insight into the (arguable) failing of this version.  Far more than the interface (which is fine) or the reliability (which is more questionable), Goko fails to offer a viable reward loop - or to put it a game layer on top of the game to make the free to play model work.  Thus it fails to appeal to one player archetype.  By failing on matchmaking it fails to deliver to another archetype.  And the adventure mode - the first time I played that I thought 'if this was my first experience of Dominion I would think it's a terrible game'!
Well I specifically don't want online Dominion to be a Skinner box game.

Well that got me thinking!

Aren't many (most?) aspects of games in some way based around a Skinner box concept?  Only some are more or less exploitative.  And some are more or less interesting.

For example one (of many) reward loops in Dominion:

Start a game to see what interesting card combinations you get -> hypothesise on what is likely to work effectively (or even just be interesting) -> see how those theories (and your ability to theorise them correctly) materialise in one possible permutation of a game -> Start a game to see what...

And some times it may branch off into -> buy new expansion to have different and new card combinations

It would seem to me that this is arguably an interesting and (largely) non-exploitative version of the Skinner Box analogy (although I accept that the Skinner box may no longer be the appropriate term, especially when considering aspects of conditioning etc.).  But equally if you were a hyper-integent being, might this type of loop be to them, what slot machines are to us?

That being said I would accept that games like hearthstone (and Magic and Poker) are more exploitative in the integration of money into a reward loop than Dominion (certainly in board game form).  However no where near the extent of farmville-likes or some MMOs.

The plan is certainly to have matchmaking and to fix the adventures. There is also a plan to add achievements, which would provide a certain amount of reward for a certain kind of player.

This all sound good, however, the reason I actually raised the online game in the previous post, is I actually think there is an opportunity to create a really interesting game (shell) within which to play to play online dominion (a good example of this kind of relationship include the pairing of the campaign mode in Total War to its RTS battles, or to some extent the arena mode in hearthstone), as apposed to the misunderstood quasi-not free to play model (but based on free-to-play mechanics) that currently exists.

15
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: May 06, 2014, 06:56:55 pm »
Thanks for your reply - all made perfect sense.

I haven't looked at Hearthstone; I know it's some kind of online Magic Lite.

I actually think that it's very interesting from a design point of view.  The two things that are most often ascribed to it are:
- It's RNG based
- It's Magic Lite

I would agree to a certain extent with both of these criticisms, however they do obscure what is perhaps more interesting about the game.

Obviously there are lots of ways of considering games, but one I keep coming back to is: how often are you making interesting decisions.  In particular the arena mode (where you first pick a class and 30 cards from a choice of 3) presents a high number of interesting decisions per minute, both in the initial pick and during the game.  (This is also why I picked up on the coin mechanic, as it massively increases (maybe x2) the number of interesting decisions over the first 3-5 turns).  As a game it also has the benefit of appealing to the 'solitaire' player (the type of person that plays 100s of games of card solitaire) and the 'gambler' player.

Where it is perhaps less successful is in allowing the player to understand why and when an decision has been made incorrectly (probably more obscured that Dominion).

There is also no denying that it is a distillation of existing ideas rather than offering something new (like Dominion did).

-----
As an aside.

Although I realise that the online Dominion is nothing to do with you, I also think it offers a clear insight into the (arguable) failing of this version.  Far more than the interface (which is fine) or the reliability (which is more questionable), Goko fails to offer a viable reward loop - or to put it a game layer on top of the game to make the free to play model work.  Thus it fails to appeal to one player archetype.  By failing on matchmaking it fails to deliver to another archetype.  And the adventure mode - the first time I played that I thought 'if this was my first experience of Dominion I would think it's a terrible game'!

-----

Anyway thanks for taking the time to answer my question!

16
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: May 05, 2014, 06:26:36 pm »
In addition to one extra mana on the turn played by the coin card, player 2 also gets an extra card at the start.
It can also be used to trigger other mechanics as it's considered a spell card (e.g. minions that get buffed with every card played, or the Rogue's combo mechanic) - that seems to be the biggest issues with it.

Obviously no direct way to translate to Dominion ...

17
Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.
« on: May 05, 2014, 05:42:55 pm »
Sorry if this has been asked before:

Somewhere you said (and I paraphrase badly) that you could have made a 'complicated' expansion if you had wanted to.  What did you mean by that: complicated in terms of number of processes/clarity of processes or complicated in terms of complex decision making in the turn (e.g. Remodel is more complex in this regard than Lab).  Or some other form of complexity?  Could you offer an example?  :)

P.S. Without wanting to rake over first player advantage again, have you seen the hearthstone 'Coin' Card mechanic (which, although not without problems, does lead to a near 50/50 1st player/2nd player win rate, but perhaps more importantly, is an interesting mechanic).  Anything you could see with a similar methodology applying to Dominion?

18
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Deliberately political cards
« on: January 19, 2014, 03:56:30 pm »
I think the problem is not when you can make a decision based on the state of play in this game (assuming every player prefers to do his best rather than deliberately nobble someone), however towards the start of the game, with no clear leader, the logic action is to give the worst option to the perceived best player - effectively making it a handicapped (as in golf handicap) game.

19
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Revised versions of published cards
« on: December 12, 2013, 04:46:28 am »
PS As someone who quite often plays 4 player games, I'd be looking quite closely at cutpurse, saboteur and torturer (played a few horrible games with each of those...)

Adventurer would be a nice card to buff too...

20
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Revised versions of published cards
« on: December 12, 2013, 04:41:21 am »
Nice, but I probably prefer the change to Scout where you add +1 VP (or possibly even +2) and make it an action-victory (I saw this somewhere here): then it has a nice self synergising feature.

21
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Card Idea: Laborers
« on: December 02, 2013, 05:29:12 pm »
I've thought in the past that the idea of a 'one shot' is a design space you could explore.  Perhaps most noticeably by forcing them to trash the card with no caveat.

The only current cards in that space I can think of: Pillage and Spoils (with cameos from Mining Village & Death Cart)

I also think that (given the number of official cards) new cards ideally should involve both strategy (overall game choices) and tactics (decisions dependent on draw of cards in hand).  The majority of existing cards tend to be much more about high level strategy, rather than low level tactics (Remodel, Band of Misfits, Salvager, Procession, Farmland etc. are possible examples that inhabit both areas)

22
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Card Idea: Laborers
« on: December 02, 2013, 01:10:20 pm »
I hope you don't mind me saying so, but it just feels a bit dull: like it's rounding off a gap in a set rather than being something more individual.

23
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Feedback Wanted: The One-Shot Almost-Festival
« on: November 13, 2013, 05:23:25 pm »
The actual card is a two-shot.

Jubilee
Types: Action
Cost: $2
+2 Actions. +$2. You may spend a token. If you don't, trash this.

When you gain this, take a token.

I can see why it doesn't have the + buy now...

24
Variants and Fan Cards / Re: Feedback Wanted: The One-Shot Almost-Festival
« on: November 13, 2013, 02:58:42 pm »
Out of interest - what is the actual card?

25
Mini-Set Design Contest / Re: Can we have another one of these?
« on: November 06, 2013, 06:29:38 pm »
I do also think that there is more of a focus on theory crafting (which is understandable, as that's arguably the more interesting part), rather than actually finishing and testing cards.

It then seems to be the case that cards are generated at a very rapid pace, then announced as the winner, and it's not even sure that anyone (including the maker) has ever played with them.

Therefore it becomes a bit of a hypothetical exercise.  I had the idea of the community card compendium (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=9604.0) but that doesn't seem to have generated much interest.

I originally came here to talk about my own ideas, but found myself very interested in other peoples ideas, but it's quite hard to separate the wheat from the chaff even in these more organised forms.

Just my 2c.

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