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1

Rules Questions / Ironworks and moved cards

« on: October 05, 2024, 05:05:43 am »

Does Ironworks still produce any Action/Coin/Card in the following scenarios where on-gain effects affect the chosen card?

1. If the card is trashed (e.g. by revealing Watchtower, or Rush/Sailor playing a card that trashes itself)?

2. If the answer to 1 is no, does it make a difference if the card isn't actually trashed (e.g. Fortress or Lich) or does the attempted trash still cause Ironworks to loose track of the card?

3. If the card is returned to the supply (e.g. Rush plays Experiment)?

4. If the card is exchanged (with Changeling, post-2020 Trader)?

5. If the card is moved, but still within the players ownership (for example gained to the hand, set aside, or Exiled)?


Also, did the 2016 rephrasing of Ironworks from "If it is an..." to "If the gained card is an..." affect how Ironworks works in any way (either for the questions above or for some other case)?

2

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Idea for an application - Legal questions, copyrights

« on: August 21, 2024, 02:51:10 am »

What about names of cards and basic related information (e.g. names of expansions and card types but not images or full card texts)?

Specifically, I've written a randomizer.  Currently it's only used by me and a few friends so it isn't publicly available but I'm considering sharing the source for it on github but won't if that would require licensing or agreements beyond just stating that it may not be used for comercial use.

Technically, the source code does not include a full list of cards either since that is fetched from the wiki (once during compilation, not everytime it is used), but the code refers to several cards with special setup, such as Young Witch.

3

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Rising Sun Rulebook Is Out

« on: August 17, 2024, 07:47:02 am »

Am I missing something or does the word “Victory” appear nowhere in this set?

It appears, but only once in the rulebook (second sentence of the Preparation section).

4

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Secret History of Rising Sun by a Playtester

« on: August 16, 2024, 05:05:27 am »

I notice that there are no reaction cards in Rising Sun and there is very little mention of reactions in the secret history.

I would have guessed that there would be several possible ways to use reactions with debt, both something that can react when getting debt, and reactions that costs debt to use, just like Root Cellar and Litter.  I'm assuming that this is obvious enough that the reason is that it didn't work, and not that it wasn't though of.  It isn't obvious to me though why it wouldn't work so would it be possible to share something about why we didn't get any debt related reaction cards?

5

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Rising Sun Previews 5: More cards

« on: August 09, 2024, 08:39:38 am »

Or, set up a Black Market with alll except ten particular cards, to guarantee a particular post-Divine Wind kingdom.

But since the content of the Black Market pile is known by the players, this indirectly means that the post-Divine Wind kingdom would also be known from the start of the game.

6

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Rising Sun Previews 5: More cards

« on: August 09, 2024, 05:50:20 am »

So are the 10 new piles known when the game starts or secret until the prophecy triggers?

Secret, the prophecy is a when-then situation.

Wow, this will make for a very unpredictable game.  I both love it and fear it at the same time.

And how is setup for those cards handled?  For example, if Baker is in the second set of piles, do everyone get a Coffer at the start of the game or do we have an extra Setup phase in the middle of someone's turn?

The new setup is done when it needs to be done.
At that moment you handle the new setup and e.g. every player gets a coffer for Baker.

Okay, so am I interpreting this correct?

- Events and Landmarks are not affected (neither removed or any new ones added), which also means the set aside card for Way of the Mouse is unaffected.
- "Setup" shall de treated as a trigger of putting something on the table, not as a phase at the start of the game that can be repeated by Divine Wind.  I.e. the setup for the existing Events and Landmarks such as Tax and Defiled Shrine won't be repeated to put tokens on the new piles, and Arena won't get additional tokens on itself.
- Traits are removed with the old piles and none of the new piles will have any Traits.
- Traits for the old piles, continue to apply to those cards after the pile has been removed.
- If Young Witch was in the first piles, the Bane card is also removed (since it is a kingdom pile).
- If Young Witch is in the new piles, an 11:th kingdom pile for the Bane cards is also added.
- If Black Market was in the first piles, the market deck stays and is still available as it isn't a kingdom pile.
- If Black Market is in the second set of piles, a market deck is set up (and any setup for those cards are also performed).
- If Ferryman was in the first piles, its extra pile stays because it isn't in the kingdom.  The extra cards can still be given out if a Ferryman is gained from the Trash.
- If Trade Route was in the first piles, the coin tokens on Estate, Dutchy, Province, and (if used) Colony stay and can still be moved to the Trade Route mat.
- If the old piles contain Looter(s), the Ruins pile stays as it isn't a kingdom pile.
- If both the old and new piles contain Looter(s), the existing Ruins pile is unaffected, i.e. it isn't refilled.
- The usage of Platinum and Colony is not affected, i.e. they stay if initially used and are never added, regardless of whether the first card in the second set is from Prosperity.
- The usage of Heirlooms and Shelters are not affected (they are neither added nor removed).
- If there were Liasons in both the first set and the new piles, the initially selected Ally is kept and no new Favor tokens are given out (except for the 4 from Importer if present in the new piles).
- Only if there were no Liasons in the first set of piles and there are in the second set does everyone gets a Favor, i.e. this is tied to when an Ally is added.
- Any "in games using this" effects from the first piles continue to apply regardless of whether any of those cards have been gained.  (Otherwise, when Charlatan is removed, a Curse currently in play would suddenly stop being a Treasure.)
- It is not possible to return any of the cards from the old piles to its pile.  (Same as for cards from the market deck or non-pile cards like Heirlooms.)


(I realize that there has been several of posts made while I was writing this so it's possible that something in my list has already been stated to be false.)

7

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Rising Sun Previews 5: More cards

« on: August 09, 2024, 03:21:30 am »

I'm guessing Divine Wind was not a suggestion by anyone making a randomizer app.

So are the 10 new piles known when the game starts or secret until the prophecy triggers?
And how is setup for those cards handled?  For example, if Baker is in the second set of piles, do everyone get a Coffer at the start of the game or do we have an extra Setup phase in the middle of someone's turn?

8

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Rising Sun Previews 3: Debt and Events

« on: August 07, 2024, 04:33:58 am »

Donald didn't mention how many Events there are.
I'm guessing that was intentional so we can't yet deduce how many victory cards (or other non-10 card piles) there are.

Assuming Rising Sun doesn't introduce anything new with less than 10 cards in its pile, we know that there can be at most 10 Events.  (25*10 cards + 25 randomizers + 15 prophecies + 10 events = 300 cards)

9

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Rising Sun Previews 1: Omens and Prophecies

« on: August 06, 2024, 02:16:25 pm »

Rule of thumb for tokens seems to be, if it has its own symbol printed on the cards (VP symbol/debt symbol/sun symbol), it uses its own specialized tokens.  If doesn't have a symbol and just uses words (coffers, villagers, favors, etc.) it uses generic coin tokens.

Not true for the Embargo tokens, but we should probably ignore them on account of being removed.

10

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Rising Sun Previews 1: Omens and Prophecies

« on: August 06, 2024, 03:00:47 am »

Do the Prophecies use a new token or do they reuse one of the existing tokens (coin tokens or debt tokens)?

It's a new token, that looks like the symbol.

This surprises me as the coin token has been reused for many things.  What is the reason for using a different token this time?

To be clear, this is not a complaint.  I like it when the tokens are different and I've even added meeples to use as Villagers and other tokens as Favors to make all tokens handled by players distinct.

11

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Rising Sun Previews 1: Omens and Prophecies

« on: August 05, 2024, 03:22:51 am »

Do the Prophecies use a new token or do they reuse one of the existing tokens (coin tokens or debt tokens)?

12

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.

« on: March 10, 2024, 05:10:41 am »

On a similar note, why don’t Charlatan and Footpad have some sort of visual reminder that they change the rules? A bolded “law:” for example. Their below the line texts are easy to overlook (especially IRL) and quite unprecedented/unexpected considering 99% of kingdom piles don’t modify rules. Did you consider other ways to implement those rules changes?

No-one in playtesting ever said "hey we should add a word to these cards." I mean it's that simple; lots of things never come up, that's one of them. Possibly the cards should have been a unique color, to draw your attention at the start of the game; it didn't come up, and they sure aren't.

The precedents are Baker and Young Witch! Two cards in the same box as Footpad. In the old days on isotropic, it was easy to miss Baker; one player would say "Baker Alarm!" And later Doug added that as an automatic thing. I can imagine online wanting a little box at the start of the game that reminds you of Baker / Footpad. And I mean maybe that will happen; not due to me going over there now and seeing "hey" but I sure don't need to rule it out.

From my perspective, everything modifies the rules. Woodcutter modifies the rules. It's easier to remember because you have to buy it to start getting the effect. But I broke this with a whole mechanic eventually, Landmarks, and no-one ever says, "we can't remember Tomb." So it seemed fair game. I think with Footpad the issue is that the bottom isn't sufficiently related to the top (it's related, but it's very mild). This in turn was due to, the bottom rule was different (an unforgettable "you have 6 cards hands this game"), and that didn't work out (it's not at its best on a Militia, would you believe).

I would argue that there is a difference here.  The extra effect on Baker only occurs once during setup so it doesn't need to be remembered throughout the game.  And the presence of something extra on the table, like a Landmark or the Bane pile, is a reminder that there is something that affects the game.  However cards like Charlatan and Footpad are just one of the 10 piles in the kingdom so there is nothing extra on the table, but they affect the game at times when I'm not handling those cards which makes it easy to forget that those effects exist.

That said, even though I like the idea of a bold prefix for these effects, I don't think it would make enough of a difference for me.  I'm considering just printing the continuing effects on separate cards to put at the middle of the table as visual reminders.

13

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Summary of all errata

« on: November 20, 2022, 05:42:17 am »

On Buy

On buy effects happens when gaining.

This isn't quite right. On-buy effects technically happen at the same time they always have; there just aren't any on-buy effects anymore.

Technically yes, but shouldn't the result be the same? My idea here was that by using this phrasing I don't need to list individual cards like Haggler that changed from "buying" to "gaining a card you bought".
However, I realize now that it will actually be different since buying a card that isn't gained (due to exchanging or trashing it) would trigger the effect before but not now. So I still need to include the new phrasing for Haggler and whichever other card this mattered for.

I've updated the post include Haggler and Hoard changing "when you buy X" to "when you gain X, if you bought it".

The replaced cards with on-buy triggers that lacks an official updated text that I could find are Embargo, Noble Brigand, and Talisman. I'm guessing Embargo and maybe Talisman would be too strong if "buy" is simply changed to "gain" so unless an official update for these are made I think it's best to continuing playing with them as they are except for resolving the on-buy effects simultaneous with on-gain, so I'll leave that as a general rule change.

14

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Summary of all errata

« on: November 20, 2022, 03:34:53 am »

Stop-moving - An effect can't move a card that has already been moved from the expected location.

Slight correction. This doesn’t only apply to cards that have already moved; but also cards that simply aren’t where they are expected to be. Such as cards which are played from the supply and stay in the supply.

Good point, I forgot about that. But are there any such effects that doesn't include the wording "leaving it there" to explicitly state that the card can't be moved?

On Buy

On buy effects happens when gaining.

This isn't quite right. On-buy effects technically happen at the same time they always have; there just aren't any on-buy effects anymore.

(Personally I think "on-buy effects happen when gaining" probably would have been a simpler way to handle it, but I'm not Donald X.)

Technically yes, but shouldn't the result be the same? My idea here was that by using this phrasing I don't need to list individual cards like Haggler that changed from "buying" to "gaining a card you bought".
However, I realize now that it will actually be different since buying a card that isn't gained (due to exchanging or trashing it) would trigger the effect before but not now. So I still need to include the new phrasing for Haggler and whichever other card this mattered for.

15

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Summary of all errata

« on: November 19, 2022, 05:53:24 am »

This is my attempt to compile a list of all the rules changes.
The goal here was to include all changes that affects rules, no matter how small, and I haven't excluded replaced cards.


General rules:

Reshuffle	First shuffle your discard pile and put in under your deck, then do the thing.
Stop-moving	An effect can't move a card that isn't in or has already been moved from the expected location.
Get from discard	You may look through your discard pile when you need to get a specific card from it.
Overpay	Overpay effects happen when the card is gained.
Coffers	Coffers can be spent at any time during your turn.
On Buy	On buy effects happens when gaining.

Added/removed words:

+may	Death Cart, Mine, Moneylender, Throne Room
Trash +to	Death Cart, Embargo (place token), Pillage (gain and attack)
+non-Duration	Cointerfeit, Crypt, Mint (trashed), Procession (trashed)
+revealed	Opulent Castle, Village Green
+non-Command	Captain, Inheritance
Type +Command	Band of Misfits, Captain, Overlord, Prince
No separating line	Alchemist, Bridge Troll, Embargo, Herbalist, Hermit, Merchant Guild, Tracker, Treasury

Replaced phrases:

"buy"	Charm, Exploration, Farmland, Forum, Hovel, Mint, Plan, Port => "gain"    Basilica, Colonnade, Defiled Shrine, Exploration, Messenger, Tax => "gain in your buy phase"
"buys"	Haunted Woods, Swamp Hag => "gains a card they bought"
"when you buy ..."	Haggler, Hoard => "when you gain ..., if you bought it"
"while this is in play"	Groundskeeper, Haggler, Highway, Hoard, Princess, Quarry, Sauna, Tracker => "this turn"    Bridge Troll => "on this turn and your next turn"    Lighthouse => "until the start of your next turn"    Merchant Guild => "at the end of your Buy phase"
"when you discard this from play"	Alchemist => "at the start of Clean-up"    Herbalist, Scheme => "once this turn"    Hermit, Treasury => "at the end of your Buy phase"
"after that turn"	Donate => "at the start of your next turn, first"    Mountain Pass => "now"
"Directly after resolving an Action"	Coin of the Realm, Royal Carriage => "After you play an Action card"
"+1 Buy, Once per turn"	Borrow, Save => "Once per turn: +1 Buy"

Other card changes:

Band of Misfits	"Play a non-Command Action card from the Supply that costs less than this, leaving it there."
Bonfire	"2 cards" => "2 Coppers"
Envoy	"Draw the rest" => "Put the rest into your hand"
Farmland	"Gain a card" => "Gain a non-Farmland card"
Hermit	"trash a non-Treasure", "At the end of your Buy phase this turn, if you didn't gain any cards in it, exchange this for a Madman."
Inheritance	"(...)" => "(During your turns, Estates are also Command Actions with "Play the card with your Estate token, leaving it there.")"
Innovation	"Once during each of your turns, when you gain an Action card, you may play it."
Lantern	"Your Border Guards" => "Border Guards you play"
Masquerade	"player" => "player with any cards in hand"
Outpost	"If this is the first time you played an Outpost this turn, and the previous turn wasn't yours, then take an extra turn after this one, and you only draw 3 cards for your next hand."
Overlord	"Play a non-Command Action card from the Supply costing up to $5, leaving it there."
Patron	"reveal this" => "reveal this in an action phase"
Peddler	"you Buy phase" => "a player's Buy phase"
Possession	"cards" => "cards or DEBT"
Prince (Duration)	"You may set aside (on this) a non-Duration non-Command Action card from your hand costing up to $4. At the start of each of your turns, play that card, leaving it set aside."
Storyteller	+1 Card after playing treasures instead of +$1 before.
Trade Route	Trash before producing coins.
Trader	"When you gain a card, you may reveal this from your hand, to exchange the card for a Silver."

Edit 1: Added/Updated Haggler, Hermit, Hoard, Mint, Peddler, and Trader
Edit 2: Reprased general stop-moving rule.

16

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.

« on: October 29, 2022, 04:29:33 pm »

Speaking of shipping times, how does it work?
I'm still waiting for the 2nd edition of Seaside/Prosperity/Hinterlands and their update packs.
I think it takes around 3 months from an expansion is released until I can buy it here in Sweden and that time seems to have been consistent for many years now, although this time it seems to be over 4 months.
The actual effect is that I get to be excited about every expansion three times (when it is announced, when I see the previews, and when I get it) with enough time to forget about it in between to make the excitement bigger for each step.

Based on what I see on this forum obviously some people get access to new Dominion stuff immediately when it's released but which parts of the world are they in and why is the difference in time so long until it reaches the rest of us?

Please note that this is not intended as a complaint. I'm just curious to understand how the shipping works.
Is it logistics involving boats across the oceans that is slow, is it that production can't keep up with demand the first months, or is it just difficult to get deliveries through the hoards of vikings around our coasts?

I don't have any specific information for your particular country / product combination. Foreign editions are up to foreign publishers, who make their own schedules. I usually don't hear anything about those releases, unless they are the same time as the English release and Jay happens to mention it to me.

Cards are currently printed in Germany. And assembled, the box of stuff put together. They could thus come out faster in Europe... but RGG makes them wait until the cards are also in the US. They sit around in a warehouse waiting for a boat. Then they come over by boat, then wait for customs, then move around in trucks. In the US, Jay ships stuff first to the farther-away places (from Wisconsin), so that everyone will get it at around the same time.

The pandemic slowed everything down, and it's hard to say how much that effect still applies.

I forgot to specify that I was referring to the English edition. (I generally avoid translations if the original language is one I understand.)

I always assumed the delay was due to the game being shipped from another continent. It's strange that shipping withing Europe would take several months.
Or could it by some weird logistical or economical reason be that the distributor that imports games to Sweden actually receives them from a warehouse in the U.S. so the games are shipped twice across the Atlantic instead of getting them directly from Germany?

17

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.

« on: October 29, 2022, 03:35:49 am »

Speaking of shipping times, how does it work?
I'm still waiting for the 2nd edition of Seaside/Prosperity/Hinterlands and their update packs.
I think it takes around 3 months from an expansion is released until I can buy it here in Sweden and that time seems to have been consistent for many years now, although this time it seems to be over 4 months.
The actual effect is that I get to be excited about every expansion three times (when it is announced, when I see the previews, and when I get it) with enough time to forget about it in between to make the excitement bigger for each step.

Based on what I see on this forum obviously some people get access to new Dominion stuff immediately when it's released but which parts of the world are they in and why is the difference in time so long until it reaches the rest of us?

Please note that this is not intended as a complaint. I'm just curious to understand how the shipping works.
Is it logistics involving boats across the oceans that is slow, is it that production can't keep up with demand the first months, or is it just difficult to get deliveries through the hoards of vikings around our coasts?

18

Rules Questions / Re: Scheme / Highwayman

« on: July 22, 2022, 01:55:06 pm »

Follow up question: Can Scheme top deck the same Action card several times during a turn or just once?

The way it is phrased it could act on the chosen card throughout the turn without explicitly limiting it to only once, so the question is really whether it looses track of the card when it is top decked.

19

Dominion General Discussion / Summary of all errata

« on: July 03, 2022, 02:50:55 pm »

As someone with the first edition of everything, the amount of changes to keep track of is getting long. Is there somewhere a complete list of all errata and rule changes so I don't have to keep track of all the different pages and forum threads?
It would be convenient to have all the functional changes (both general rules and card texts) as a single sheet that can be printed and have at hand when playing, so if someone has already made that it would be really great.

20

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Seaside 2E Announced

« on: March 06, 2022, 03:36:24 am »

Based on the following image that shows all the 2E cards in the rulebook, it can be deduced which cards have been removed:
https://boardgamegeek.com/image/6638068/dominion-seaside

The removed cards are: Ambassador, Embargo, Explorer, Ghost Ship, Navigator, Pearl Diver, Pirate Ship, Sea Hag
And the new cards include 2 (white) action cards and 7 duraction cards
The removal of Embargo and Pirate Ship means that 2E comes without any tokens. But the rule book still shows the Island and Native Village mats.

Source:
https://www.reddit.com/r/dominion/comments/t6ehij/navigator_removed_in_seaside_2e_confirmed/hzbnjxa/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

21

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion Paradoxes

« on: April 01, 2020, 02:38:44 am »

If instead you ended up with just BM and Mouse, and then got YW in the BM deck, it would be the same.

But what if there are no 2-3 cost cards left after setting up the BM deck (and YW was the last card added to the BM deck), do you play without a Bane card or randomly remove one of the cards already added to the BM deck?

22

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Dominion Paradoxes

« on: March 27, 2020, 02:56:10 am »

This makes me wonder about the following scenario:

If Black Market is in the kingdom and the Black Market deck includes Young Witch. What happens if the randomized Bane card is already present in the Black Market deck?
The rules and FAQ on the wiki for Young Which does not say anything about excluding cards already used in the Black Market deck when selecting the Bane card.
If cards in the Black Market deck are not excluded, the supply pile for Bane would then only contain 9 cards.

If the above is resolved by excluding cards from the Black Market deck when selecting a Bane card, what happens if there are no unused 2-3 cost cards left after the Black Market deck is created? (Since it's up to each group how many cards to put in the Black Market deck, this is a possibility.)
Should this be resolved by playing without the Bane pile, removing a card from the Black Market deck to make a complete supply pile for Bane, or treating the single copy of the card in the Black Market deck as the only Bane card in the game?

23

Dominion General Discussion / Re: Interview with Donald X.

« on: March 15, 2020, 04:08:24 am »

Since cards not in the supply in later expansions have non-zero costs, are there any plans to update or errata the earlier cards like Spoils, Mercenary, Madman, and the Prizes to also have costs reflecting their strengths?

24

Rules Questions / Re: Militia rule change

« on: March 10, 2020, 05:14:28 pm »

The examples I saw early in this thread was of drawing additional cards while resolving Militia and whether the increased hand size would require additional cards to be discarded.
The point of my earlier post was to show that it could also be the other way around, i.e. reactions can reduces the hand size. If drawing additional cards would force additional discards it also means that reducing the hand size by reactions will result in fewer discards due to the attack.
I'm not advocating whether it should be "discard one card at a time until reaching 3" or "discard all cards at once and then react". I just wanted to show another scenario that will also be affected by the ruling.

25

Rules Questions / Re: Militia rule change

« on: March 10, 2020, 03:24:36 pm »

I haven't seen anyone mention that the ruling here could force additional cards to be discarded after reaching the hand size.

Example:
I have bought Sewers and have five cards in hand, including Tunnel and Watchtower.
Opponent plays Militia.
I discard Tunnel.
I reveal Watchtower to trash the gained Gold.
I use Sewers to trash a card from my hand.
I now have three cards left in my hand.

If I discard until I have 3 cards left then I'm done, but if the number of cards to discard is decided when Militia is played I must still discard one more and will end up with just two cards left.