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[raerae]

A Snow lynch now seems like nothing more than convenience since he's not around.

[raerae]

As for why I keep directing questions at Ash, Space, it's interesting you're just now pointing out how that's scummy. I've had a town read on him since pretty early on, haven't been shy about sharing that, and now you're using that as a reason I'm scummy.

I'm using it just now because wanting an opinion from another player you trust in the early game is normal, but townreading a particular player now, when town!you should be worried that three out of the other five players are scum is a whole different thing.

PPE 4

So I'm not allowed townreads?

[MiX]

As for why I keep directing questions at Ash, Space, it's interesting you're just now pointing out how that's scummy. I've had a town read on him since pretty early on, haven't been shy about sharing that, and now you're using that as a reason I'm scummy.

I'm using it just now because wanting an opinion from another player you trust in the early game is normal, but townreading a particular player now, when town!you should be worried that three out of the other five players are scum is a whole different thing.

Do you not have a single townread? Having even one player that you trust goes a long way, PoE is incredibly strong.

A Snow lynch now seems like nothing more than convenience since he's not around.

Eh, seems like a way to dismiss the case on him. Do you agree, disagree or are neutral to it (it being the case)?

[raerae]

As for why I keep directing questions at Ash, Space, it's interesting you're just now pointing out how that's scummy. I've had a town read on him since pretty early on, haven't been shy about sharing that, and now you're using that as a reason I'm scummy.

I'm using it just now because wanting an opinion from another player you trust in the early game is normal, but townreading a particular player now, when town!you should be worried that three out of the other five players are scum is a whole different thing.

Do you not have a single townread? Having even one player that you trust goes a long way, PoE is incredibly strong.

A Snow lynch now seems like nothing more than convenience since he's not around.

Eh, seems like a way to dismiss the case on him. Do you agree, disagree or are neutral to it (it being the case)?

Not dismissing it, just think it's gained steam because he's MIA and that makes me distrust it.

[jotheonah]

Has there been a formal prod request on Snow?

[MiX]

Has there been a formal prod request on Snow?

No, but I was about to do it, didn't want to sound rude...Prod: Snow. There.

[WestCoastDidds]

A Snow lynch now seems like nothing more than convenience since he's not around.

Okay, I’ll hold off until he’s back unvote but he has been my biggest Maquis candidate today and I’ve articulated that elsewhere

[SpaceAnemone]

I like MiX's case on how I'm not Garak. It's far too convoluted for me to have come up with, since I know my role and it's definitely not Garak. However, it's definitely a piece of Maquis-hunting, and almost definitely useful to town. I say "almost definitely" because I still think leaving scum as uncertain as possible about where town's PRs lie is the best course of action.

Since it's out there already, though, and since it has a bearing on scum-reading Ash, then for anyone still not following MiX's Space-isn't-Garak argument, the gist of it is that I can't be Maquis because of EFHW's claim, and everyone who isn't Maquis had a strong interest in keeping EFHW alive to get another night's-worth of Maquis-cop results. Garak did not protect EFHW, therefore Garak is probably Maquis. Since I can't be Maquis, I can't be Garak.

It seems like solid reasoning to me, though I'm a bit biased! Of course, it's possible Garak spent the bus-driving shot early on and EFHW got a result from someone other than me, but even in a Maquis!Space setting, it makes almost no sense to spend the shot that early and to spend it on me. And I emphasize that I'm actually town anyway, so there's virtually no risk of Garak having already used the shot for that.

The only ways I can see for Ash not to be Garak are:
1) MiX is Garak. Not so likely given all his Garak-hunting, but it's an outside chance.
2) Raerae is Garak. The one-shot misunderstanding would be a genius-level play, but probably also something she'd do a lot better than some of us.
3) WCD is Garak, her Maquis-buddy is actually Jadzia, and her claim a weird diversionary tactic.
4) Snow is Garak, and his Maquis-buddy is the real O'Brian. Given that his claim came out even earlier than WCD's this seems really unlikely.

I can see the logic in voting Snow here from MiX's point of view. The downside is that MiX is more or less assuming that Ash is Maquis!Garak to deduce that he (MiX) wants to vote Snow, all without testing that intermediate hypothesis. I think if we're sold on the Maquis!Garak idea at all, then the best course of action should be to flip Ash himself first, and then go after the other people that implicates second if we were right on the first hypothesis and still alive to tell the tale.

[MiX]

The only ways I can see for Ash not to be Garak are:
1) MiX is Garak. Not so likely given all his Garak-hunting, but it's an outside chance.
2) Raerae is Garak. The one-shot misunderstanding would be a genius-level play, but probably also something she'd do a lot better than some of us.
3) WCD is Garak, her Maquis-buddy is actually Jadzia, and her claim a weird diversionary tactic.
4) Snow is Garak, and his Maquis-buddy is the real O'Brian. Given that his claim came out even earlier than WCD's this seems really unlikely.

I can see the logic in voting Snow here from MiX's point of view. The downside is that MiX is more or less assuming that Ash is Maquis!Garak to deduce that he (MiX) wants to vote Snow, all without testing that intermediate hypothesis. I think if we're sold on the Maquis!Garak idea at all, then the best course of action should be to flip Ash himself first, and then go after the other people that implicates second if we were right on the first hypothesis and still alive to tell the tale.

From my PoV, 1)'s impossible, 2)'s incredibly unlikely, might have to reread raerae's previous posts, 3) links MQ together a lot and 4) links MQ too much for it to be a reasonable play IMO. So for me only 2) and 3) are possible, and I doubt 2) while also having a townread on Didds that discards 3). But they're good points.

As for my Snow case, the brilliance here is that I don't need to assume ash's MQ!Garak, just Garak: thus, if Didds is town, ash/raerae can't be a team (for the same reason raerae isn't Garak), which leads exactly two teams: ash/snow and raerae/snow, both of which implicate Snow.

[ashersky]

I find some flaws in the thinking regarding optimal Garak play being espoused here.

As for the ridiculous assumption that MiX is making, let me posit this to any player who wants to answer:

If I have every living player on the game post the words “I am not the SK” while you are sleeping, leaving only you as the one who didn’t post those words, does that mean I can safely assume you are the SK and base all my other reads and assumptions on that?

[MiX]

I find some flaws in the thinking regarding optimal Garak play being espoused here.

As for the ridiculous assumption that MiX is making, let me posit this to any player who wants to answer:

If I have every living player on the game post the words “I am not the SK” while you are sleeping, leaving only you as the one who didn’t post those words, does that mean I can safely assume you are the SK and base all my other reads and assumptions on that?

Raerae already pointed this out, but I still deduced everyone who said "I'm not Garak" is indeed not Garak (Snow/Didds have claimed, I trust myself, raerae's play implies she's not Garak and I deduced Space can't be Garak given her play). So, yes, you were right, but I strengthened my case. What do you think of it now?

[SpaceAnemone]

The only ways I can see for Ash not to be Garak are:
1) MiX is Garak. Not so likely given all his Garak-hunting, but it's an outside chance.
2) Raerae is Garak. The one-shot misunderstanding would be a genius-level play, but probably also something she'd do a lot better than some of us.
3) WCD is Garak, her Maquis-buddy is actually Jadzia, and her claim a weird diversionary tactic.
4) Snow is Garak, and his Maquis-buddy is the real O'Brian. Given that his claim came out even earlier than WCD's this seems really unlikely.

I can see the logic in voting Snow here from MiX's point of view. The downside is that MiX is more or less assuming that Ash is Maquis!Garak to deduce that he (MiX) wants to vote Snow, all without testing that intermediate hypothesis. I think if we're sold on the Maquis!Garak idea at all, then the best course of action should be to flip Ash himself first, and then go after the other people that implicates second if we were right on the first hypothesis and still alive to tell the tale.

From my PoV, 1)'s impossible, 2)'s incredibly unlikely, might have to reread raerae's previous posts, 3) links MQ together a lot and 4) links MQ too much for it to be a reasonable play IMO. So for me only 2) and 3) are possible, and I doubt 2) while also having a townread on Didds that discards 3). But they're good points.

As for my Snow case, the brilliance here is that I don't need to assume ash's MQ!Garak, just Garak: thus, if Didds is town, ash/raerae can't be a team (for the same reason raerae isn't Garak), which leads exactly two teams: ash/snow and raerae/snow, both of which implicate Snow.

So you're happy to deduce that I'm not Garak based on the fact that I'm not Maquis. At the same time you're voting Snow instead of Ash because Ash could be a non-Maquis Garak. I get that there's a significant difference in playstyle between me and Ash, but unless you're making that an explicit part of your assumption, then there's a flaw in your logic.


For anyone not wishing to follow along in that much detail, I don't necessarily think MiX is wrong, but I also want to think it through the details of case myself to be sure it's not an attempt at misdirection.

[MiX]

I like your style...my case on you being not-Garak resides on this single post:

So: Space, are you Garak?

I am not.

Which seems unecessary town lying if Space's, in fact, Garak. Ash didn't do this. I believe town!Garak would simply not answer if he wants to hide instead of lying to a direct question.

[ashersky]

Hug, town Garak would just not answer, you say.

As for your “strengthened case”, you “deduced” something, you say?

I deduce that you are scum. Are we to all agree that I am fully correct?

You can’t just “deduce” something and expect that to be a sensible thing to say. I deduce that you are scum, Raerae is Keanu Reeves, and joth is actually residing on DS9 and has great wifi. Look I deduced stuff!  Do you believe me?

[raerae]

Hug, town Garak would just not answer, you say.

As for your “strengthened case”, you “deduced” something, you say?

I deduce that you are scum. Are we to all agree that I am fully correct?

You can’t just “deduce” something and expect that to be a sensible thing to say. I deduce that you are scum, Raerae is Keanu Reeves, and joth is actually residing on DS9 and has great wifi. Look I deduced stuff!  Do you believe me?

My cover is blown but since you figured it out... We're filming a fourth Matrix movie and Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure is my biggest regret in life but not for the reasons you might think.

[raerae]

I like your style...my case on you being not-Garak resides on this single post:

So: Space, are you Garak?

I am not.

Which seems unecessary town lying if Space's, in fact, Garak. Ash didn't do this. I believe town!Garak would simply not answer if he wants to hide instead of lying to a direct question.

Also, people had already decided to lunch Garak unless he had a real convincing argument so it isn't that surprising nobody stepped up to that plate, scum or otherwise.

[jotheonah]

Replacing Snow seems pretty hopeless at this juncture, but I will be attempting it if he hasn’t responded to the prod in 35 hours, so if anyone has been reading along and is untainted by additional info please ping me. Speccy is probably ok in a pinch.

Update: We have a volunteer.

[MiX]

Hug, town Garak would just not answer, you say.

As for your “strengthened case”, you “deduced” something, you say?

I deduce that you are scum. Are we to all agree that I am fully correct?

You can’t just “deduce” something and expect that to be a sensible thing to say. I deduce that you are scum, Raerae is Keanu Reeves, and joth is actually residing on DS9 and has great wifi. Look I deduced stuff!  Do you believe me?

I've already explained why I think Space isn't Garak in detail, just read that post. If you have indeed deduced that I am scum, I would love to see your demonstration. That's the important part. If you have a counterargument against my theory of Space isn't Garak, say it: you and raerae have pointed out that I relied too much on the "not Garak" claim so I stated why town!Garak!Space wouldn't do what they did. Now what's wrong with it?

I like your style...my case on you being not-Garak resides on this single post:

So: Space, are you Garak?

I am not.

Which seems unecessary town lying if Space's, in fact, Garak. Ash didn't do this. I believe town!Garak would simply not answer if he wants to hide instead of lying to a direct question.

Also, people had already decided to lunch Garak unless he had a real convincing argument so it isn't that surprising nobody stepped up to that plate, scum or otherwise.

They could simply not answer. Saying "No" there and then is conpletely unecessary and it's excessive town lying.

But overall this case's weaker than the one I have on ash, SK!Space has no reason to keep EFHW alive and bus driving that night could kill MQ, something SK wouldn't want.

Vote: ash, thanks for helping me everyone.

[SpaceAnemone]

Awesome that we have a volunteer UoS replacement! Thank you, mystery replacement person :-)

Can we have a bit of a deadline extension to let the new player get up to speed? I'm concerned that we might hit the deadline just in time for them to have finished reading the game so far, and weekends are often not great for participation.

On a related note, it's my birthday on Monday, so I've got weeknd of food, games and other fun with friends planned, and might not be online too much...

[raerae]

If that person is coming from the speccy and has kept up I'd prefer we keep the original deadline. Obviously deferring to mod/replacement preferences. The thread has gone dormant in the last day or two and that isn't all Space being gone. If we had to vote right now, is everybody ready? If not, put your questions out there, sitting around isn't helping town right now.

[MiX]

Vote: Volunteer, I reeeeeally don't want a new player to have to read again...come ooon, I basically know the MQ team, don't ruin my thing!

Seriously, this replacement is the worst thing for everyone, but mostly for himself, because now he's super confused about everything probably. I wonder who it is?

Space, about Monday...isn't deadline Sunday?

If that person is coming from the speccy and has kept up I'd prefer we keep the original deadline. Obviously deferring to mod/replacement preferences. The thread has gone dormant in the last day or two and that isn't all Space being gone. If we had to vote right now, is everybody ready? If not, put your questions out there, sitting around isn't helping town right now.

I am incredibly ready to vote either ash or "snow" at any time, all the talk today was mostly me saying "we need to lynch MQ" and "these are the MQ and why", I was ready from the moment EFHW flipped.

Vote: ash

[MiX]

Before anyone gets any ideas, I'm obviously in favour of the replacement, because it's better than not (Snow would probably had to be modkilled). Also, welcome, said person, I'm willing to let you live if you say who you targetted N4. Cmon, don't lie like Snow, you don't even KNOW he lied

Also I agree that if the replacement comes from speccy we don't need a new deadline.

If we had to vote right now, is everybody ready? If not, put your questions out there, sitting around isn't helping town right now.

Do you have any questions?

[raerae]

Before anyone gets any ideas, I'm obviously in favour of the replacement, because it's better than not (Snow would probably had to be modkilled). Also, welcome, said person, I'm willing to let you live if you say who you targetted N4. Cmon, don't lie like Snow, you don't even KNOW he lied

Also I agree that if the replacement comes from speccy we don't need a new deadline.

If we had to vote right now, is everybody ready? If not, put your questions out there, sitting around isn't helping town right now.

Do you have any questions?

Yeah but I'm keeping them all hidden inside like I usually do...

[WestCoastDidds]

Happy almost birthday, Space!  I hope its a weekend of awesome fun and celebration.

I think it makes sense, if we get a new person, to give them time to catch up if they aren't.  So, I think it depends on who.

If we are going to vote now, I am probably going to vote for Snow, but that was my feeling before he was unable to be present much, and I don't know how much a new person would change my mind.  So, I guess another alternative is to lynch and then if its not Snow let the new person read in.

[MiX]

If we are going to vote now, I am probably going to vote for Snow, but that was my feeling before he was unable to be present much, and I don't know how much a new person would change my mind.  So, I guess another alternative is to lynch and then if its not Snow let the new person read in.

Can you sum up why you would vote for Snow, and can you say why those reasons are stronger than the reasons to vote ash? Because it seems like you were sheeping me, but it turns out I made an error in my deduction, specifically that Space can be simultaneously SK and Garak, which led me to vote ash instead.