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[yuma]

@Jimmmm:

Right now I am going with the assumption that there are 2, yes. If we lynch one and win. Awesome. But for now I think we should all assume that there are 2 scum left alive.

[ashersky]

Are you sure there are 2 scum left? Admittedly 2+1 in 13 seems pretty few. So you believe that regardless 2 of me, ash and Andrew are scum?

I am not convinced, actually.  One way to balance a game with lots of investigative roles is to have fewer targets to catch.  2+1 in 13 is normal; think of 3 mafia in 13 players in a non-SK C9++, or the 2 mafia + 1 SK setup.

If there are two mafia left, we're in lylo and we have to lynch correctly here.
If there is one mafia left, we're not in lylo, and we have another day (with one or two less townies).

We can't bank on one, though, so we have to play as if there are two.  But I don't think it's good to go, well 2 out of these 3 are scum, so 66% chance woo!  We need to be finding the 1 in 3 to be sure.  Finding the partner is tomorrow's job.

Remaining mafia can't kill us all, so someone will have a result.

[ashersky]

Remaining mafia can't kill us all, so someone will have a result.

Another thing that's odd about Andrew.  He can roleblock anyone he wants, right?  Why did we both get results?  It points to one of us being Andrew's partner, possibly.

The nexus of all this is still Andrew.  If he's alive for tomorrow, he roleblocks whoever he wants and kills anyone.

Jimmmmm, was your result clearly a result, or could you have been blocked?

[yuma]

Yes, ash is right. I am far more interested right now in looking at interactions of players with WW than interactions with the remaining alive players as we don't know if there is 1 or 2 left alive. So looking for the one rather than the two is important, but remembering that there could be 2 alive for lylo purposes in the back of our minds.

anyways, I am off for the night. Thanks for unvoting ash, I promise I will give this the attention it deserves. Won't be a problem really since I am dead everywhere else...

[ashersky]

Remaining mafia can't kill us all, so someone will have a result.

Another thing that's odd about Andrew.  He can roleblock anyone he wants, right?  Why did we both get results?  It points to one of us being Andrew's partner, possibly.

The nexus of all this is still Andrew.  If he's alive for tomorrow, he roleblocks whoever he wants and kills anyone.

Jimmmmm, was your result clearly a result, or could you have been blocked?

Another thought -- if Andrew is the only remaining mafia, and mafia can't use their power and kill the same night, that fits the narrative for one death and all PRs getting results.

[Archetype]

One way to balance a game with lots of investigative roles is to have fewer targets to catch. 

Strongly disagree. More investigative roles means a stronger scum team. The more investigative roles there are, the more likely they are to eliminate an entire faction. That's why some SKs are Ninja!

[Jimmmmm]

One way to balance a game with lots of investigative roles is to have fewer targets to catch. 

Strongly disagree. More investigative roles means a stronger scum team. The more investigative roles there are, the more likely they are to eliminate an entire faction. That's why some SKs are Ninja!

Unless scum have lots of Redirecting/Godfathering/Ninjaing, in which case investigative roles have a lot of potential for confusion.

[Jimmmmm]

Jimmmmm, was your result clearly a result, or could you have been blocked?

Hmm, I'm not sure how closely I can go into the wording of the PMs... I'll check with mail-mi.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Ok. I just got home a couple hours ago after being out of town for about two weeks and being without a phone for about a week. So sorry about my absence. Also because of this, I submitted my night action an hour or so late and I'm not sure if it got through.

My night action was doctoring Jimm but at this point Jimm and ash are the only ones I would lynch. If yuma is scum and Arch is telling the truth about his role, that's game. So I'm not even going to go there. I like how ash's argument for me being scum is now "he's still alive" as if the same couldn't be said about him. That said, nobody else has claimed any other doctor role besides Arch, and his role is technically Seraph Knight. I don't think me claiming to have a powerful role is any argument about me being scum anyway.

I also remember right after I claimed Jimm and ash had a little back and forth, with ash first asking me to elaborate on my role and then criticizing Jimm for doing the same thing. I knew something was up with one or both of them at that moment and it now makes perfect sense.

I'll do some rereading tomorrow if only to look for more evidence but I think we need to lynch ash here.

[ashersky]

Ok. I just got home a couple hours ago after being out of town for about two weeks and being without a phone for about a week. So sorry about my absence. Also because of this, I submitted my night action an hour or so late and I'm not sure if it got through.

My night action was doctoring Jimm but at this point Jimm and ash are the only ones I would lynch. If yuma is scum and Arch is telling the truth about his role, that's game. So I'm not even going to go there. I like how ash's argument for me being scum is now "he's still alive" as if the same couldn't be said about him. That said, nobody else has claimed any other doctor role besides Arch, and his role is technically Seraph Knight. I don't think me claiming to have a powerful role is any argument about me being scum anyway.

I also remember right after I claimed Jimm and ash had a little back and forth, with ash first asking me to elaborate on my role and then criticizing Jimm for doing the same thing. I knew something was up with one or both of them at that moment and it now makes perfect sense.

I'll do some rereading tomorrow if only to look for more evidence but I think we need to lynch ash here.

Resigned scum is resigned.

No, seriously, you sound so caught.

[ashersky]

Why doctor Jimmmmm?  And then put him in the lynch category?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Remember when I suggested that you provide useful input instead of completely useless and empty posts? Yeah. I stand by that.

Why doctor Jimmmmm?  And then put him in the lynch category?

Because I figured Arch and yuma are probably town (or at least Arch is and then there's nothing to do about yuma anyway), Xeiron is probably dying (he did), and I had a slight scum read on XP and a big scum read on you. If I correctly guessed who scum was targeting for the NK and saved them from dying that would've been huge but that didn't happen.

I'm going to sleep, goodnight.

[ashersky]

Remember when I suggested that you provide useful input instead of completely useless and empty posts? Yeah. I stand by that.

Why doctor Jimmmmm?  And then put him in the lynch category?

Because I figured Arch and yuma are probably town (or at least Arch is and then there's nothing to do about yuma anyway), Xeiron is probably dying (he did), and I had a slight scum read on XP and a big scum read on you. If I correctly guessed who scum was targeting for the NK and saved them from dying that would've been huge but that didn't happen.

I'm going to sleep, goodnight.

Why didn't you roleblock your biggest scum read?  Or any scum read?  That's my point, more than protecting Jimmmm.  Town's best play is trying to stop the NK.  At this point in the game, you should have been blocking, if you were telling the truth.  Doctoring arch/Yuma was maaaaybe a defensible move, but doc jimmmmm over blocking me or jimmmmm or any purported scum read?  That's indefensible, from a town POV.

[Jimmmmm]

So... One of me and Andrew (Andrew) has to be scum right?

Night 2 Andrew Doctored yuma, and yuma killed Witherweaver. But I targeted Andrew's Jailkeeper, meaning that Andrew also Roleblocked yuma, but Witherweaver still died. Which means Andrew (or I) is lying.

<b>Vote: Andrew</b>

[AndrewisFTTW]

So... One of me and Andrew (Andrew) has to be scum right?

Night 2 Andrew Doctored yuma, and yuma killed Witherweaver. But I targeted Andrew's Jailkeeper, meaning that Andrew also Roleblocked yuma, but Witherweaver still died. Which means Andrew (or I) is lying.

<b>Vote: Andrew</b>

No, it doesn't. If WW targeted me that means he redirected my doctor/roleblock to whoever he wanted, which could've been yuma. But if it wasn't yuma then TA show WW like he said he did. We went over this already.

Why are you suddenly jumping to the conclusion that one of us must be scum? You're totally dismissing ash.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Remember when I suggested that you provide useful input instead of completely useless and empty posts? Yeah. I stand by that.

Why doctor Jimmmmm?  And then put him in the lynch category?

Because I figured Arch and yuma are probably town (or at least Arch is and then there's nothing to do about yuma anyway), Xeiron is probably dying (he did), and I had a slight scum read on XP and a big scum read on you. If I correctly guessed who scum was targeting for the NK and saved them from dying that would've been huge but that didn't happen.

I'm going to sleep, goodnight.

Why didn't you roleblock your biggest scum read?  Or any scum read?  That's my point, more than protecting Jimmmm.  Town's best play is trying to stop the NK.  At this point in the game, you should have been blocking, if you were telling the truth.  Doctoring arch/Yuma was maaaaybe a defensible move, but doc jimmmmm over blocking me or jimmmmm or any purported scum read?  That's indefensible, from a town POV.

That's exactly what I was trying to do. I'm sorry you thought roleblocking was the best way to achieve that but I didn't think so. Again, saying my claimed night action is a lie is not an argument.

[Jimmmmm]

Why are you suddenly jumping to the conclusion that one of us must be scum?

...because the game isn't over.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Why are you suddenly jumping to the conclusion that one of us must be scum?

...because the game isn't over.

And ash is cleared because....?

[Jimmmmm]

No, it doesn't. If WW targeted me that means he redirected my doctor/roleblock to whoever he wanted

You're right. <b>Unvote</b> for now.

[Jorbles]

Vote Count 4.1

Not Voting (5): Archetype, AndrewisFTTW, Jimmmmm, yuma, ashersky

With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on May 8 at 11 o'clock PM FT

[ashersky]

A quick scan looks like me and Jimmmmm in the Andrew camp and Andrew in the ashersky camp, with arch leaning either way and yuma holding off.

Arch/yuma, what are you looking to get out of today?  I can keep repeating the same cases on Andrew over and over, but you've read all those.  I know you both need to re-read, but if there's an angle we're missing, might as well explore it while we're waiting.

Since my XP re-read on D3, not sure there was much added to the game from that perspective.  Xeiron's death doesn't tell us much of anything except he wasn't lying.  Did he have any strong reads?  At least we'd know they were honest.

[ashersky]

Updating xeiron's list:

Andrew - Nynaeve - Split Jailkeeper
N1 - Roleblocked TA
N2 - Doctored yuma
N3 - Doctored Jimmmmm

yuma - Aviendha - JOAT Vig
D2 - Shot ADK
N2 - Shot WW

Archetype - Moiraine - Seraph Knight - 1-Shot Permanent Doctor thing
N1 - Permanently doctors yuma

ashersky - Perrin Aybara - Role Cop
N1 - Targeted TA - 1-Shot Forsaken Immune Thief
N2 - Targeted Jimm - no result
N3 - Investigated Arch - confirmed claim

Jimmmmm - ? - Tracker
N1 - Tracked shraeye - nobody
N2 - Tracked Witherweaver - targeted Andrew
N3 - Tracked Arch - nobody


___________Dead_Players:_____________

Sudgy - Elayne Trankand - a Ter'angreal Maker (Inventor)
Lynced D1

A Drowned Kernel - Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn - a Tainted Cop
N1 - Targeted ??
Dayvigged D2

Faust - Elmindreda (Min) Farshaw - Viewer (Voyeur).
N1 - targeted ??
Killed N1

Shraeye Loial son of Arent son of Halan, an Ogier 1-shot Commuter.
N1 - Did not commute
Killed N1

Witherweaver - Rahvin, the Diplomat - a Forsaken-aligned Redirector
N1 - Targeted ??
N2 - Targeted Andrew
Killed N2

Twistedarcher - Thomdril Merrilin - 1-Shot Forsaken Immune Thief
N1 - Targeted yuma / Killed faust
N2 - Targeted Xerxespraelor / Killed witherweaver

Xeiron - Mat Cauthon - Tainted Anti-Ascetic Townie
Immune against night action using the one power
Died N3

Xerxespraelor - Egwene - Mailman
N1 - Sent message to shraeye
N2 - Sent message to Xeiron
N3 - Sent message to yuma
Killed N3

[AndrewisFTTW]

WW targeted me on N2 according to Jimm. Do you really think scum would target one of his partners? If Jimm is scum he would be lying about targeting WW N2 but would  still know that WW targeted me.

[ashersky]

Jimmmmm never flavor claimed, I guess.

So Andrew claims to have blocked TA, who killed faust anyway.
Andrew claims to have jailed (doc + targeted) yuma, who killed ww anyway.
Andrew claims to have doctored his 2nd highest scum read.

Yeah, that all looks great.  He of course has the cover of a scum player who flipped redirector, and has claimed a role that changes if he's targeted.

Here's a scum narrative for you: what if he does have a role like that, and a partner who is a redirector?  How about you have your partner direct you where you want to have whatever action to take happen, to ensure it happens?  It's like a trade off, where the partner can't redirect town but you get a stronger scum power for Andrew.  Does that fit any flavor in the books?  Working together to do magic or something?  Regardless, he claims to have been targeting all kinds of stuff in the middle of all the action the first two nights, and then when the redirector is dead, all he did was doctor someone who was his 2nd highest scum read and probably unlikely to be killed.

Let's think this through again.  He DOCTORED his 2ND HIGHEST SCUM READ.  Also, in the list of "going to die tonight" people, where does Jimmmmm fall at the end of yesterday?  I mean, we have basically IC yuma, we have claimed bodyguard guy Arch protecting him--so one or the other makes sense to protect.  We had xerxes who claimed he would be confirmed town today if he lived.  Why protect Jimmmmm ahead of any of those three?

I get it, I'm your biggest scumread.  Block me, then.  But you don't doc me, anyway.  So your choices were: yuma, arch, xeiron, xerxes, Jimmmm.  I have to think that Jimmmmm comes 4th on that list to protect for any town doctor.  Xeiron is probably dead anyway, so he stays at the bottom.

So we have N1/N2 claims contrary to what actually happened, with the built in excuse of a scum redirector.  But his own claim makes sense as a partner to the redirector, as a way to use his power.

And we have an N3 claim completely different from his thinking on N1/N2, which fits with not having his redirector buddy to help him anymore.  And he targeted the second least sensible person to target.

[ashersky]

WW targeted me on N2 according to Jimm. Do you really think scum would target one of his partners? If Jimm is scum he would be lying about targeting WW N2 but would  still know that WW targeted me.

I just posted, which answers this.  Yes, I absolutely think there are situations/setups/roles/etc. in a closed RMM that would have a scum redirector targeting his scum partner to do stuff.

Like, how cool would this be?  A Scum Roleblocker who is only a Roleblocker if he is targeted by someone else.  Otherwise, he's just a Doctor.  And then a partner who is a Scum Redirector who can target someone and decide who they target.  Hey, that works out really well!

So yes, WW could absolutely target you, his partner.  Plus, makes sense that you can use the "why would he target his partner" argument today.