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[yuma]

Concerning ash's town reads on yuma and TA, of course yuma is a town read because of his claim. But TA? And nobody else?

I had a pretty good town read on him throughout most of day1... so I don't have a problem with ash having a townread then, and still don't really because reads aren't always going to be the same...

But my read on TA started to shift a bit toward the end of day1 (being ok with both sudgy and Andrew lynches, the blackmailing and some other things I can't remember) maybe not enough to be my favorite lynch, but someone to keep in mind.

[yuma]

Here is a question for anyone that wants to answer it:

Hypothetically if you are scum how do you respond to me claiming dayvig (and thus you as scum would know I am telling the truth)?

Do you subtly cast suspicion on me in an attempt to make sure I don't get IC status or do you basically "believe" my claim and cast no suspicion my way?

[Witherweaver]

Here is a question for anyone that wants to answer it:

Hypothetically if you are scum how do you respond to me claiming dayvig (and thus you as scum would know I am telling the truth)?

Do you subtly cast suspicion on me in an attempt to make sure I don't get IC status or do you basically "believe" my claim and cast no suspicion my way?

I would think that I would want to treat you as pretty sure town.  That seems a lot safer. 

[xeiron]

Here is a question for anyone that wants to answer it:

Hypothetically if you are scum how do you respond to me claiming dayvig (and thus you as scum would know I am telling the truth)?

Do you subtly cast suspicion on me in an attempt to make sure I don't get IC status or do you basically "believe" my claim and cast no suspicion my way?

I think I would do whatever my partners would not do.

[yuma]

Here is a question for anyone that wants to answer it:

Hypothetically if you are scum how do you respond to me claiming dayvig (and thus you as scum would know I am telling the truth)?

Do you subtly cast suspicion on me in an attempt to make sure I don't get IC status or do you basically "believe" my claim and cast no suspicion my way?

I think I would do whatever my partners would not do.

And what would your parents do?

(Also why unwilling to answer the question in a non-cryptic way?)

[ashersky]

Concerning ash's town reads on yuma and TA, of course yuma is a town read because of his claim. But TA? And nobody else?

I had a pretty good town read on him throughout most of day1... so I don't have a problem with ash having a townread then, and still don't really because reads aren't always going to be the same...

But my read on TA started to shift a bit toward the end of day1 (being ok with both sudgy and Andrew lynches, the blackmailing and some other things I can't remember) maybe not enough to be my favorite lynch, but someone to keep in mind.

This is town TA, definitely.

[ashersky]

TA I don't think that's a good reason not to vote ash. I agree Xeiron is scummy but he hasn't been crazy lurking. Besides, we have people in different time zones and such and I don't think we're headed for a no-lynch if that's what you're thinking.

On another note, hey ash look! Some on actually did what accused me of doing. TA just said he finds you scummy but then went ahead and voted Xeiron. I'm looking forward to you encouraging TA to vote for you instead.

TA I don't see the point of not lynching someone for fear that they might flip town. There's always that fear, barring an investigator of some sort. If Xeiron flips town we're still going to have a hard time, but I'm not going yo sit here and fret about a no-lynch on D3. We have D2 to worry about and I'm concerned with lynching scum.

I know you are new, but man, you can't be looking for "reasons not to vote" for someone.  You need to be looking for reasons TO vote someone.  Now, that's not to say that finding/making town reads is bad, it's actually a very good thing to do.  But you don't just choose someone, then talk about "reasons not to vote" for them.  That's going at the game of mafia backwards.

As for "not lynching someone for fear that they might flip town," if you do that too often, you lose the game.  You realize this?  So, you should always be wary of mislynching players.  You can't just go willy-nilly, shooting from the hip all the time.  It's irresponsible to fellow townies, if you are town.

[xeiron]

Here is a question for anyone that wants to answer it:

Hypothetically if you are scum how do you respond to me claiming dayvig (and thus you as scum would know I am telling the truth)?

Do you subtly cast suspicion on me in an attempt to make sure I don't get IC status or do you basically "believe" my claim and cast no suspicion my way?

I think I would do whatever my partners would not do.

And what would your parents do?

(Also why unwilling to answer the question in a non-cryptic way?)

My scumpartners, not my parents.
The theory here is that you do not need three persons to cast suspicion on one guy. Actually one is probably to much unless there actually is something suspicious to point out.

In this case I think you are acting sucpicious, because I have problems with seeing your town motive for claiming. Why claim D1, when you apparently have no plan of using your power in the near future?

[ashersky]

I feel like there are a number of players just skating by, and it's an easy place for scum to hide.  I'd say faust, both Xs, ADK, shraeye and maybe Jimmmmm fit into that description?  Obviously can't all be scum, but seems like a good place to hide.

You could take out a lurker, if you are compulsive and don't have strong reads.  shraeye, either X, etc.

I think the thought process if I was a dayvig who had to shoot today...

2)  Is there consensus on a target from the majority of players?  How do I feel about those who agree?  Then...

I'd say sudgy and the two Xs are on the scummy end of the Andrew wagon, and are probably in the "fine to lynch, so fine for yuma to shoot" category, so if I was looking for a suspicious bus (or scum helping along a mislynch), it'd be those two.

Here are all the times ash refers to me before his case. Most of them cast general suspicion on me without giving enough reason or a vote, and that's scummy. Notice that ash never voted for me until just very recently.

Here, let me trim those down to relevant sentences for you.  See, when you actually quote what matters, it isn't so big and impressive looking, which was clearly your goal.  I say this because you NEVER quote stuff in your arguments, you just make one line posts calling people scummy and whatnot.

So...I say scum may be hiding in the lurker group, and mention you among six lurkers at the time.  WOW, so crazy!  Look at me CASTING GENERAL SUSPICION!

The second quote, again, about lurkers.  That "etc." there means I listed some examples out of a group.

The third quote is not about lurkers, but about people being on the suspicious positions of the Andrew wagon, and particularly about those who may be bussing Andrew.  This is actually suspicious.

As for my vote on you -- your admission to targeting someone who died last night and the terribly easy to fake claim to go with it which is impossible to verify was enough to put me over the top.  I'd say you are likely partners with Andrew, if I'm right about him.  But where there are players who at least disagree with me about Andrew's play, no one seems to be buying what you are selling.

[ashersky]

You're still spreading suspicion.

What does that even mean? In a game centred around there being players who actively want to "kill" everyone else, you're suggesting that we not be suspicious of people?

The important thing is that the way he was casting suspicion made it more likely that people would think we were scum without realizing that the idea originated from him. Characteristics of what he did that do that include:
Not voting (even after a big case on me!);
Keeping the reasons minor and small;
Doing it repeatedly almost the same way each time.

That's why I'm voting for him.

Can you quote my "big case" on you?  I'm not sure I've ever made a single-post case on you at all.
Who says the reasons are minor or small?  Bussing Andrew, buddying, changing your playstyle; these aren't minor.
I'm pretty sure you are as repetitive as anyone here.

[ashersky]

Here is ash's sudgy vote, immediately after and in response to my claim. Notice there's no mention of the possibility of a fakeclaim. Ash's main priority right now is to get off my wagon ASAP instead of questioning anything, like he's doing now.

I can either doctor or roleblock. If someone targets me, I both doctor and roleblock my target.

vote: sudgy

What does that bolded line mean?  And where do you get that?  Taking quotes out of context and making up someone else's "main priority" is pretty scummy.  My main priority as we neared deadline after your claim was getting a lynch through.  Sudgy was the only other option.  You were believable enough to switch after that answer, so I switched.

I never should have bought your crap on D1, though.  It's clear you were lying through your teeth.

[yuma]

@ash...

yawn....

[ashersky]

Here is a question for anyone that wants to answer it:

Hypothetically if you are scum how do you respond to me claiming dayvig (and thus you as scum would know I am telling the truth)?

Do you subtly cast suspicion on me in an attempt to make sure I don't get IC status or do you basically "believe" my claim and cast no suspicion my way?

Not sure what you're looking to get out of this question.  I like it as a theory discussion, but in game you have to expect any number of answers that probably won't tell you anything useful.

Honestly, it's such a confirmable claim (all day powers are) that everyone needs to believe it until you can't confirm it, and then you get lynched.  Because of that, it's very unlikely to be a fakeclaim from scum.  I think scum wants to push you to shoot at a time that is most opportune for them -- that is, when you are espousing bad reads (which you wouldn't know are bad).

Has anyone stuck out to you as particularly worried about your reads of them?  I think scum are going to be a bit more jumpy than they would normally be about your reads if they are accurate because it isn't about beating a wagon, it's about beating you head to head.

[ashersky]

@ash...

yawn....

Am I boring you?

[yuma]

My scumpartners, not my parents.
The theory here is that you do not need three persons to cast suspicion on one guy. Actually one is probably to much unless there actually is something suspicious to point out.

In this case I think you are acting sucpicious, because I have problems with seeing your town motive for claiming. Why claim D1, when you apparently have no plan of using your power in the near future?

Ha... totally misread that. Ok I see what you are saying. But keep in mind that you can't coordinate--unless there is daytalk--it because I claimed right off the bat day1. So I guess you are saying that you would have sat back and seen what your partners would have done. If they had attacked me you woulnd't have. If they hadn't you would have?

As for the rest... I claimed because I felt it was the best move. 1. It provided town with what I consider to be a pseduo-IC for all intents and purposes. Someone to trust and rely upon. Not a perfect IC I admit, but for me to be scum I would either have to be lying--unlikely I think you will admit--or scum with the power I said I had--even more unlikely I think you will admit. So while I never sought complete IC status, part of my reasoning was that I expected--and saw--that most people would believe me and would respond positively to my suggestions and ideas 2. there was no drawback... as I believe I am a PR that is expendeble. My power is more often negative utiltiy than positive and if I died I didn't think it would be a big loss. However, it also created a WIFOM situation for scum to decide if I was worth a NK--I kinda hoped I would take in a NK last night, but that wasn't the case.

As for not having a plan to use my power. Who says I don't have a plan. Perhaps my criteria for such a situation where my plan would work hasn't bee fulfilled yet. I might use my power in the future, I might not, it depends on what happens in the game itself.

[AndrewisFTTW]

TA I don't think that's a good reason not to vote ash. I agree Xeiron is scummy but he hasn't been crazy lurking. Besides, we have people in different time zones and such and I don't think we're headed for a no-lynch if that's what you're thinking.

On another note, hey ash look! Some on actually did what accused me of doing. TA just said he finds you scummy but then went ahead and voted Xeiron. I'm looking forward to you encouraging TA to vote for you instead.

TA I don't see the point of not lynching someone for fear that they might flip town. There's always that fear, barring an investigator of some sort. If Xeiron flips town we're still going to have a hard time, but I'm not going yo sit here and fret about a no-lynch on D3. We have D2 to worry about and I'm concerned with lynching scum.

I know you are new, but man, you can't be looking for "reasons not to vote" for someone.  You need to be looking for reasons TO vote someone.  Now, that's not to say that finding/making town reads is bad, it's actually a very good thing to do.  But you don't just choose someone, then talk about "reasons not to vote" for them.  That's going at the game of mafia backwards.

The very first sentence is me saying TA reason for not voting you isn't a good one. Is your post addressed to TA or what? I'm confused.

As for "not lynching someone for fear that they might flip town," if you do that too often, you lose the game.  You realize this?  So, you should always be wary of mislynching players.  You can't just go willy-nilly, shooting from the hip all the time.  It's irresponsible to fellow townies, if you are town.

When have I ever been willy-nilly about lynching someone? I pretty much onky vote for someone that I have a case on and that I feel strongly is scum and I probably have three or four votes in this entire game. Maybe one RVS vote, a TA vote, a sudgy vote, and now my vote on you. How can you possibly accuse me of something like that?

[yuma]

@ash...

yawn....

Am I boring you?

Honestly a little bit... I guess I will just honestly state that I am more or less ignoring your argument with Andrew at the moment... I don't see a lot of information to gain from it either way. I think Andrew is town, but I am not sure he is correct in his read on you, but you both seem to be miss understanding what each other is saying and creating large quote walls of text to read--or in my case ignore--I am not going to tell you to stop, but rather just say that I don't think your posts are as effective as you might hope they are

[yuma]

Not sure what you're looking to get out of this question. 

I don't know what to look for expect and I am not necessarily saying that I will get reads from the answers, but more as a theory question itself, because I am not sure if I am thinking right.

Basically I started off thinking that the people who were voicing suspicion of me were more likely to be scum--wanting to keep ICs from being created and justifying why I wasn't killed to make me a potential mislynch down the road and make my reads less reliable.

But I am not so sure if that is how scum would respond to me. I feel more like what WW said... that scum would just kinda go with the flow with me and not make any waves in my direction--especially given my power.

So right now I am starting to become suspicious of people who havne't voiced any suspicion of me, but I am not sure if my thinking is correct.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Here is ash's sudgy vote, immediately after and in response to my claim. Notice there's no mention of the possibility of a fakeclaim. Ash's main priority right now is to get off my wagon ASAP instead of questioning anything, like he's doing now.

I can either doctor or roleblock. If someone targets me, I both doctor and roleblock my target.

vote: sudgy

What does that bolded line mean?  And where do you get that?  Taking quotes out of context and making up someone else's "main priority" is pretty scummy.  My main priority as we neared deadline after your claim was getting a lynch through.  Sudgy was the only other option.  You were believable enough to switch after that answer, so I switched.

I never should have bought your crap on D1, though.  It's clear you were lying through your teeth.

Out of context? Exactly what is out of context here? I explained what my role is and instead of weighing the possibility of it being a fakeclaim you jump ship, which is the safest thing for scum to do in that situation.

I guess now you're convinced it's a fakeclaim because you think I'm scum? You thought I was scum all D1 so why didn't the possibility of it being a fakeclaim occur to you when I was at L-1?

Scumslip maybe?

[ashersky]

TA I don't think that's a good reason not to vote ash. I agree Xeiron is scummy but he hasn't been crazy lurking. Besides, we have people in different time zones and such and I don't think we're headed for a no-lynch if that's what you're thinking.

On another note, hey ash look! Some on actually did what accused me of doing. TA just said he finds you scummy but then went ahead and voted Xeiron. I'm looking forward to you encouraging TA to vote for you instead.

TA I don't see the point of not lynching someone for fear that they might flip town. There's always that fear, barring an investigator of some sort. If Xeiron flips town we're still going to have a hard time, but I'm not going yo sit here and fret about a no-lynch on D3. We have D2 to worry about and I'm concerned with lynching scum.

I know you are new, but man, you can't be looking for "reasons not to vote" for someone.  You need to be looking for reasons TO vote someone.  Now, that's not to say that finding/making town reads is bad, it's actually a very good thing to do.  But you don't just choose someone, then talk about "reasons not to vote" for them.  That's going at the game of mafia backwards.

The very first sentence is me saying TA reason for not voting you isn't a good one. Is your post addressed to TA or what? I'm confused.

That very first sentence is what I was addressing.  You are lambasting TA for his reason for not voting for someone.  But that's a silly argument to make -- you aren't supposed to be looking at "reason NOT to vote player A #1, #2, and #3, you are supposed to be looking for reasons TO vote.

You are picking out something someone said to be a reason not to vote and attacking it.  Attacking players for their town reads doesn't make sense, though.  People need to talk about reasons TO vote, not reasons NOT to vote.

[Witherweaver]

Can we back up here a second? 

Andrewis, what was the original point you were making with your big two-post with lots of quotes?  Were you making an argument against TA or Ash, or them as a team?

[ashersky]

Here is ash's sudgy vote, immediately after and in response to my claim. Notice there's no mention of the possibility of a fakeclaim. Ash's main priority right now is to get off my wagon ASAP instead of questioning anything, like he's doing now.

I can either doctor or roleblock. If someone targets me, I both doctor and roleblock my target.

vote: sudgy

What does that bolded line mean?  And where do you get that?  Taking quotes out of context and making up someone else's "main priority" is pretty scummy.  My main priority as we neared deadline after your claim was getting a lynch through.  Sudgy was the only other option.  You were believable enough to switch after that answer, so I switched.

I never should have bought your crap on D1, though.  It's clear you were lying through your teeth.

Out of context? Exactly what is out of context here? I explained what my role is and instead of weighing the possibility of it being a fakeclaim you jump ship, which is the safest thing for scum to do in that situation.

I guess now you're convinced it's a fakeclaim because you think I'm scum? You thought I was scum all D1 so why didn't the possibility of it being a fakeclaim occur to you when I was at L-1?

Scumslip maybe?

Clearly I thought about the chance it was a fake claim; that's why I asked you to try and explain it.  It was under pressure, I expected you to either be able to explain it right away or fumble.  You didn't fumble, the lynch was moving away, it was the safe call at the time.

I think it's hilarious that you are trying to use the "I was fake claiming and you didn't pick up on it so you must be scum!" argument.  L-1 deadline claims are always snap judgements: believe or not believe?  If you were telling the truth, it would have been a travesty to lynch you.  Go back and read games where we used to lynch claimed cops on D1.

If you aren't scum, I will eat joth's hat.

[ashersky]

@ash...

yawn....

Am I boring you?

Honestly a little bit... I guess I will just honestly state that I am more or less ignoring your argument with Andrew at the moment... I don't see a lot of information to gain from it either way. I think Andrew is town, but I am not sure he is correct in his read on you, but you both seem to be miss understanding what each other is saying and creating large quote walls of text to read--or in my case ignore--I am not going to tell you to stop, but rather just say that I don't think your posts are as effective as you might hope they are

Sorry I'm not entertaining you.  Seems I'm just wasting everyone's time here.

[yuma]

Sorry I'm not entertaining you.  Seems I'm just wasting everyone's time here.

Well I am not asking to be entertained...but I feel that the conversation has moved soooo far beyond me--and probably everyone else--that it has become a conversation just between you and andrew where I am guessing that it has more to do with pride (on both sides) and OMGUS (on both sides) and emotions (on both sides) than actual scumhunting...

If there is real scumhunting then it is getting lost in the layers of quotes and everything else. So i am not saying entertain me, but perhaps take a step back and present your case succinctly rather than just argue with Andrew about it? Not trying to hurt your feelings, just saying that I think what you are saying is being lost on most of us.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I didn't say I was fake claiming, just that after everything you did D1 you didn't discuss the possibility of it being a fakeclaim until D2 when I'm still alive. If it was a fakeclaim why would I fumble? I assume (uh oh) fakeclaims are written out the same way as legit roles?

Can we back up here a second? 

Andrewis, what was the original point you were making with your big two-post with lots of quotes?  Were you making an argument against TA or Ash, or them as a team?

I was assessing the possibility of ash and TA as partners.