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[A Drowned Kernel]

Well so much for treating it like vanilla. I'm against a mass claim since we have no way to judge if it's a good idea or not, not knowing what roles there even potentially are.

[ashersky]

unvote

Ridiculously easy claim to confirm, no reason to do it as scum (unless yuma's a scum dayvig and the day he uses it they lose their nightkill or something).

Onward!

[yuma]

Been awhile since we've had a true closed setup.  My first thought is treat D1 as a vanilla game.

So what is closed, and why treat it as a vanilla game?

Closed means the players have no information about what PR's there are, or even what factions there are. As I understand it, the only bit we have is that everyone has some sort of non-vanilla ability. Ash is saying that since we have no info, we shouldn't discuss things like claiming at all.

there is merit to this. I have obviously already broken it and for what I think are good reasons. And I would argue that treating a RMM game like vanilla isn't always the best idea as 1. everyone has PRs and 2. we can coordinate those PRs in ways to find mafia better and 3. force mafia to commit to a fake claim early and potentially to their detriment.

The difference between RMM and normal mafia is really VTs. I am assumgin there are no or few VTs in this setup. Thus really any PR is probably worth killing whereas in normal games VTs aren't worth the nk and thus keeping things secret is potentially good. Here... I don't know. There is the drawback if some PRs are more powerful than others or if mafia can somehow manipulate the roles...

Basically what I am saying is that I think mass claiming early is generally more beneficial to town in RMM games than normal games and the drawbacks are less steep.

[ashersky]

Well so much for treating it like vanilla. I'm against a mass claim since we have no way to judge if it's a good idea or not, not knowing what roles there even potentially are.

Well, now we know there is (probably) a dayvig.  In the world of claims, I don't see this as too bad.  If mafia decide to NK him, we've lost a PR that most likely just kills another PR anyway (no offense yuma, but you know...your reads).

[yuma]

Ridiculously easy claim to confirm, no reason to do it as scum (unless yuma's a scum dayvig and the day he uses it they lose their nightkill or something).

Awesome way to balance that! Should have kept it secret for you next RMM game.

[ashersky]

there is merit to this. I have obviously already broken it and for what I think are good reasons. And I would argue that treating a RMM game like vanilla isn't always the best idea as 1. everyone has PRs and 2. we can coordinate those PRs in ways to find mafia better and 3. force mafia to commit to a fake claim early and potentially to their detriment.

There are roles that exist that work well in concert with this idea to catch scum, too.

[yuma]

(no offense yuma, but you know...your reads).

Are soooooooooooooo bad!

[ashersky]

Ridiculously easy claim to confirm, no reason to do it as scum (unless yuma's a scum dayvig and the day he uses it they lose their nightkill or something).

Awesome way to balance that! Should have kept it secret for you next RMM game.

Yeah, you are right.  Damn!

Unless it's already in this game.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Yeah I get why yuma claimed, but we should think carefully before deciding whether everyone should claim as well.

[Twistedarcher]

Cool, not sure what to say about that but obviously don't lynch Yuma, verifiable. Maybe think about shooting D1 so you have your shot incase you get killed early -- I forget if you're generally pro or anti vig, but just use your best judgement.

[Witherweaver]

So I guess the idea of claiming would be that if the scum have scum-only roles, they'd have to lie about it, and we can try to catch them in it.  But a lot of roles can be both scum and town, right?  And on the other hand, it gives the scum a lot of information on who to night kill. (I guess you could lie as town, too.)  It seems like it benefits scum more than town.

[ashersky]

(I guess you could lie as town, too.)

Don't lie as town.  Just don't.  Ever.  Please.

[AndrewisFTTW]

So I guess the idea of claiming would be that if the scum have scum-only roles, they'd have to lie about it, and we can try to catch them in it.  But a lot of roles can be both scum and town, right?  And on the other hand, it gives the scum a lot of information on who to night kill. (I guess you could lie as town, too.)  It seems like it benefits scum more than town.

Yes but since this is RMM scum probably have PRs too.

[ashersky]

What's funny is that we always go down this road.

Someone suggests a mass or semi-mass claim.  Some people are against it, others are for it, some are in the middle.  Invariably someone else says don't even talk about it as it will give away too much information just by talking about it.  And then we talk about it some more.

Even me saying "let's treat it as vanilla" didn't get people to not talk about it.  Plus yuma claimed.  At this point, if you are a dayvig, probably worth counterclaiming yuma, otherwise probably not.

Of course, the flip side of all this is that the claiming discussion is at least discussion, and it gets the game going.

[Jimmmmm]

Would some kind of DaySK work?

[Archetype]

What's funny is that we always go down this road.

Someone suggests a mass or semi-mass claim.  Some people are against it, others are for it, some are in the middle.  Invariably someone else says don't even talk about it as it will give away too much information just by talking about it.  And then we talk about it some more.

Even me saying "let's treat it as vanilla" didn't get people to not talk about it.  Plus yuma claimed.  At this point, if you are a dayvig, probably worth counterclaiming yuma, otherwise probably not.

Of course, the flip side of all this is that the claiming discussion is at least discussion, and it gets the game going.

Do we have some sort of trend regarding alignments in favor/not in favor of claiming? Like, if you look back to all the RMM games, are Mafia members in favor of a massclaim?

[ashersky]

What's funny is that we always go down this road.

Someone suggests a mass or semi-mass claim.  Some people are against it, others are for it, some are in the middle.  Invariably someone else says don't even talk about it as it will give away too much information just by talking about it.  And then we talk about it some more.

Even me saying "let's treat it as vanilla" didn't get people to not talk about it.  Plus yuma claimed.  At this point, if you are a dayvig, probably worth counterclaiming yuma, otherwise probably not.

Of course, the flip side of all this is that the claiming discussion is at least discussion, and it gets the game going.

Do we have some sort of trend regarding alignments in favor/not in favor of claiming? Like, if you look back to all the RMM games, are Mafia members in favor of a massclaim?

I haven't done the research, but I'd assume that a massclaim always favors scum in games with few or no VTs.  If scum don't know what they're dealing with, it's more likely we can catch them doing something later or they miss a kill, etc. etc.

In my LOTR games, claims always helped the scum teams, for example.

[sudgy]

Vote: yuma

[xeiron]

(I guess you could lie as town, too.)

Don't lie as town.  Just don't.  Ever.  Please.

This.

Catching scum in a lie is one the best methods we have for finding badguys in RMM.
We have won many games on the assumption that town never lies. Lying as town ruin this tool.

[xeiron]

...

I haven't done the research, but I'd assume that a massclaim always favors scum in games with few or no VTs.  If scum don't know what they're dealing with, it's more likely we can catch them doing something later or they miss a kill, etc. etc.

In my LOTR games, claims always helped the scum teams, for example.

Pretty sure this is another game where claiming helps scum.
I say no claimig. I am interested in playing a whole game without massclaiming, for once. But that is not something we should decide now. Wheter it is a good idea, depens on the developement in the later stages of the game.

[Jimmmmm]

Vote: yuma

Vote: sudgy

[faust]

(I guess you could lie as town, too.)

Don't lie as town.  Just don't.  Ever.  Please.

Since this is f.ds, I would like to point out that there are edge cases to this rule. But yeah, mostly lying is bad.

[faust]

Vote: yuma

So, what's this?

Vote: sudgy

[faust]

Would some kind of DaySK work?

I seriously doubt that. At least if they only have their day shot. As scum, I think you absolutely need to be able to take dangerous players out of the game without everyone knowing that they are out of the game.

A SK that is DayVig additionally to his night kill could work if properly balanced, I think.

[faust]

that should read "without everyone knowing that you wanted them out of the game".