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[ehunt]

I love herald. I would overpay for it even if there was no benefit.

[Lekkit]

Herald and Ironmonger, my two favorite 4s.

[Ichimaru Gin]

In an action-heavy deck, Herald without the benefit could be a lab most of the time, for only $4.
Considering that it does include the on-buy benefit. . .
I haven't played too much with guilds, but it seems that both parts of herald are perfect for decks with lots of actions.

[Lekkit]

In an action-heavy deck, Herald without the benefit could be a lab most of the time, for only $4.
Considering that it does include the on-buy benefit. . .It's just awesome!!

It's actually more like a half activated City since get to play the action for free. Not making it any worse.

[pingpongsam]

It can backfire in the same way Golem can backfire.

Ironmonger never backfires.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Oh yeah. I forgot that it includes the fake +action as well.
Just makes it that much better.

[shark_bait]

If only there was some card that could guarantee hitting an action card by reordering the top of the deck..... hmmmm. 

[Lekkit]

It can backfire in the same way Golem can backfire.

Ironmonger never backfires.

Unless you draw your entire deck before playing all Ironmongers. But then you only really miss out on the +1 coin effect.

[Davio]

If only there was some card that could guarantee hitting an action card by reordering the top of the deck..... hmmmm.

Yes there is!




Apothecary.

[blueblimp]

If only there was some card that could guarantee hitting an action card by reordering the top of the deck..... hmmmm.

Yes there is!




Apothecary.

Huh, I was thinking of a different card.



Wandering Minstrel.

[jonts26]

If only there was some card that could guarantee hitting an action card by reordering the top of the deck..... hmmmm.

Yes there is!




Apothecary.

He clearly meant cartographer.

[Robz888]

Herald is nice.

Ironmonger blows it out of the park.

[GiB]

If only there was some card that could guarantee hitting an action card by scouting the top of the deck..... hmmmm.

FTFY

[jaybeez]

Herald is nice.

Ironmonger blows it out of the park.

Well... often, yes.  I feel like Herald can be better for engines that have high enough action density.

While we're on the subject though, when Dark Ages first came out weren't some people saying, in this very forum, that Ironmonger didn't look very good?  Hilarious.

[Awaclus]

If only there was some card that could guarantee hitting an action card by reordering the top of the deck..... hmmmm.

Yes there is!




Apothecary.

He clearly meant cartographer.

But Apothecary, Cartographer and Wandering Minstrel don't guarantee an action card unless they happen to reveal one. Obviously the thing he is looking for is Workshop gaining a Death Cart while you have a Watchtower in hand!

[soulnet]

But Apothecary, Cartographer and Wandering Minstrel don't guarantee an action card unless they happen to reveal one. Obviously the thing he is looking for is Workshop gaining a Death Cart while you have a Watchtower in hand!

At least say Armory!

Or if you want to complicate it on purpose, Black Market to play Royal Seal is way better than a silly Watchtower.

[eliegel34]

I think Scrying Pool is also an interesting comparison. They function quite differently, but are both good in the same action heavy deck.  Scrying Pool is usually stronger, which makes sense since 2P is generally agreed to be a higher cost a than 4 (only a little).  I think Herald is probably good in more situations though, not having the commitment of a potion cost. I also think Herald is nice if you have a lot of terminals since it works as a village, and Scrying Pool can not.

[Kirian]

But Apothecary, Cartographer and Wandering Minstrel don't guarantee an action card unless they happen to reveal one. Obviously the thing he is looking for is Workshop gaining a Death Cart while you have a Watchtower in hand!

At least say Armory!

Or if you want to complicate it on purpose, Black Market to play Royal Seal is way better than a silly Watchtower.

Except that the card you want to guarantee playing with Herald has to be the second card in your deck, not the first.  So you need to gain two cards with Throne Room-Armory, then play Herald: the second card you gained goes into your hand, so the first card you gained should have been the action.

[yed]

It can backfire in the same way Golem can backfire.
Ironmonger never backfires.

Unless you draw your entire deck before playing all Ironmongers. But then you only really miss out on the +1 coin effect.

Sometimes you miss the +1 action effect too.

[PSGarak]

Herald is one of those cards where if it's present, the #1 thing I look for is a way to get my coppers out of the way. If you can get rid of around half your starting deck, Herald is an absolute beast. If you can't, then Herald is an absolute disappointment. Scrying Pool is similar to Herald for this reason. It also holds with Conspirator, but in that case it's easier to get away with just sifting.

[Jerk of All trades]

IMO herald is a fairly weak 4.  You'd never open with it, because then it's a cantrip with a low chance of doing anything other than replacing itself. and later on, unless you have an insane amount of deck inspection or trashing you will still miss actions with it.

Very skippable most of the time.  Even in a village/smithy style engine deck, most of the time I'd just rather have another smithy.

[jaybeez]

You usually don't want to open with Bishop either, but that's a very good $4.  A card's strength as an opener is one aspect of its overall strength.

[Davio]

I rarely open with Potion if I'm going for Possession.
Potion/Death Cart maybe in a Baker game, but that's about it.

[Schlippy]

Herald and Ironmonger, my two favorite 4s.

Same for me, although I think Ironmonger should either cost 5 and do something for curses or should have a clause that makes you unable to buy it on turn 1 and 2. I always feel really cheap when buying it on my starting turns because it usually is a cantrip silver for 4 in the beginning unless you get really unlucky (or you got shelters and get a little bit unlucky).

[Warfreak2]

Cantrip Silver? If it hits a Copper and draws a Copper, it's providing $2 for you, but not being a cantrip on top of that. It's a Peddler in the opening, you'd get the same $ if you opened Tournament.

[Davio]

It's always a cantrip in that it draws you another card.

Sometimes it's a Peddler that discards a Copper (making it even better than Peddler).
Sometimes it's a Lab that discards an Estate (making it even better than Lab).
Sometimes it's a simple Village.
And sometimes it's just a Great Hall.

But it's generally always good.

[soulnet]

I have already said this somewhere else, but the good thing about Ironmonger is that it is better than Village as a Village, because it is not a Village in the first few shuffles, when being a Peddler or Lab is way better. And it is great for slogs, when it hits green a lot.

[Schlippy]

Cantrip Silver? If it hits a Copper and draws a Copper, it's providing $2 for you, but not being a cantrip on top of that. It's a Peddler in the opening, you'd get the same $ if you opened Tournament.

Well yeah, not exactly cantrip Silver, the comparison to Peddler/Tournament is better. But the tournament thing is not exactly true either, because Ironmonger can draw you a copper, then hit an estate and draw you another copper. :>

[soulnet]

Cantrip Silver? If it hits a Copper and draws a Copper, it's providing $2 for you, but not being a cantrip on top of that. It's a Peddler in the opening, you'd get the same $ if you opened Tournament.

Well yeah, not exactly cantrip Silver, the comparison to Peddler/Tournament is better. But the tournament thing is not exactly true either, because Ironmonger can draw you a copper, then hit an estate and draw you another copper. :>

The first Copper is still accounted for in the "cantrip" part, you cannot count it as an extra card and as extra +$1.

Hitting Estate is clearly great, almost as good as double-lab.

[Awaclus]

I have already said this somewhere else, but the good thing about Ironmonger is that it is better than Village as a Village, because it is not a Village in the first few shuffles, when being a Peddler or Lab is way better.

Though, the thing is, you don't need a village during the first few shuffles anyway (unless there's an edge case), and when you need a village, Village is better as a village than Ironmonger, because it's guaranteed to split the action. If you've got to use Ironmonger as a village, the fact that you can start getting them earlier than usual is just compensation for the reliability that you lose when you actually need it.

[GendoIkari]

It's always a cantrip in that it draws you another card.

Sometimes it's a Peddler that discards a Copper (making it even better than Peddler).
Sometimes it's a Lab that discards an Estate (making it even better than Lab).
Sometimes it's a simple Village.
And sometimes it's just a Great Hall.

But it's generally always good.

Man I skipped right to this page, so naturally assumed you were talking about Herald, and spent several minutes trying to figure out what sort of card interactions could possibly cause it to work the way you suggest.

[terminalCopper]

A peddler that discards a copper is like a lab (unless you prefer copper over +1$ for some reason).

Btw in which case is it just a great hall?
Even if you reveal curse, the discarding option makes it nearly as strong as a lab (unless you wanted to have that curse in hand for some reason).

[Awaclus]

A peddler that discards a copper is like a lab (unless you prefer copper over +1$ for some reason).

Btw in which case is it just a great hall?
Even if you reveal curse, the discarding option makes it nearly as strong as a lab (unless you wanted to have that curse in hand for some reason).

If you have no card on top of the deck, or you reveal an action you want to keep and can't spend the +action.

[GendoIkari]

A peddler that discards a copper is like a lab (unless you prefer copper over +1$ for some reason).

Btw in which case is it just a great hall?
Even if you reveal curse, the discarding option makes it nearly as strong as a lab (unless you wanted to have that curse in hand for some reason).

If you have no card on top of the deck, or you reveal an action you want to keep and can't spend the +action.

Dunno if I'd include the second scenario... if we did, we could of course say that Village is only a Great Hall if you don't play 2 actions (which might be a fair assessment, but doesn't fairly rate Village's power), or we could say that Peddler is just a Great Hall if it happens to give you more than you can spend that turn.

[Watno]

A peddler that discards a copper is like a lab (unless you prefer copper over +1$ for some reason).

Btw in which case is it just a great hall?
Even if you reveal curse, the discarding option makes it nearly as strong as a lab (unless you wanted to have that curse in hand for some reason).

If you reveal a Curse or (pure) Reaction card.

But don't forget it can also be a Peddler and a Lab or a Lab and a Village (or a Crossroads and a Hunting grounds).

[Awaclus]

A peddler that discards a copper is like a lab (unless you prefer copper over +1$ for some reason).

Btw in which case is it just a great hall?
Even if you reveal curse, the discarding option makes it nearly as strong as a lab (unless you wanted to have that curse in hand for some reason).

If you have no card on top of the deck, or you reveal an action you want to keep and can't spend the +action.

Dunno if I'd include the second scenario... if we did, we could of course say that Village is only a Great Hall if you don't play 2 actions (which might be a fair assessment, but doesn't fairly rate Village's power), or we could say that Peddler is just a Great Hall if it happens to give you more than you can spend that turn.

Once I opened Ironmonger/Masquerade and on turn 4, hit Masquerade with Ironmonger. Replace Ironmonger with Village and it would be an obvious misuse of the cards, but it's much less so in this situation, so I think it is more fair for Ironmonger than it is for Village. Though, depending on how you look at it, maybe it also fairly rates Village's power, because it is a reason why you wouldn't buy Village in a big money deck, so if being unfit for some strategies makes a card weaker, then Village is made weaker by the fact that you don't always connect it with two terminals. But if you only look at the strategies in which Village is actually good, then it isn't.

[terminalCopper]

A peddler that discards a copper is like a lab (unless you prefer copper over +1$ for some reason).

Btw in which case is it just a great hall?
Even if you reveal curse, the discarding option makes it nearly as strong as a lab (unless you wanted to have that curse in hand for some reason).

If you reveal a Curse or (pure) Reaction card.

A great hall does NOT reveal and (optionally) discard a curse.
I do also have some trouble to name a pure reaction card ... is it only me?

[Kirian]

A peddler that discards a copper is like a lab (unless you prefer copper over +1$ for some reason).

Btw in which case is it just a great hall?
Even if you reveal curse, the discarding option makes it nearly as strong as a lab (unless you wanted to have that curse in hand for some reason).

If you reveal a Curse or (pure) Reaction card.

A great hall does NOT reveal and (optionally) discard a curse.
I do also have some trouble to name a pure reaction card ... is it only me?

Hovel is the closest you can get.

[GendoIkari]

A peddler that discards a copper is like a lab (unless you prefer copper over +1$ for some reason).

Btw in which case is it just a great hall?
Even if you reveal curse, the discarding option makes it nearly as strong as a lab (unless you wanted to have that curse in hand for some reason).

If you reveal a Curse or (pure) Reaction card.

But don't forget it can also be a Peddler and a Lab or a Lab and a Village (or a Crossroads and a Hunting grounds).

If it reveals a curse, then it was pretty much a Laboratory, not counting edge cases where you want the Curse in hand. You'll discard it, which is usually just as good as having played a Lab to draw it.

[markusin]

A peddler that discards a copper is like a lab (unless you prefer copper over +1$ for some reason).

Btw in which case is it just a great hall?
Even if you reveal curse, the discarding option makes it nearly as strong as a lab (unless you wanted to have that curse in hand for some reason).

If you reveal a Curse or (pure) Reaction card.

But don't forget it can also be a Peddler and a Lab or a Lab and a Village (or a Crossroads and a Hunting grounds).

If it reveals a curse, then it was pretty much a Laboratory, not counting edge cases where you want the Curse in hand. You'll discard it, which is usually just as good as having played a Lab to draw it.

What's funny is that Vagrant will actually draw that curse.

[Awaclus]

A peddler that discards a copper is like a lab (unless you prefer copper over +1$ for some reason).

Btw in which case is it just a great hall?
Even if you reveal curse, the discarding option makes it nearly as strong as a lab (unless you wanted to have that curse in hand for some reason).

If you reveal a Curse or (pure) Reaction card.

But don't forget it can also be a Peddler and a Lab or a Lab and a Village (or a Crossroads and a Hunting grounds).

If it reveals a curse, then it was pretty much a Laboratory, not counting edge cases where you want the Curse in hand. You'll discard it, which is usually just as good as having played a Lab to draw it.

What's funny is that Vagrant will actually draw that curse.

What's funny is that Ironmonger does almost everything you want a Vagrant to do, and more.

[flies]

unless you want the card in hand for trashing or crossroads or dual type vp cards or s/t.  [/edge case]

[Warfreak2]

Ironmonger puts dual-type vp (or just vp) in your hand, if you want it to...

[soulnet]

Ironmonger puts dual-type vp (or just vp) in your hand, if you want it to...

I played Ironmonger+Harem+Silk Road recently and it was crazy good.

http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131127/log.50ea2963e4b0429cfe091cec.1385580373890.txt

[flies]

Ironmonger puts dual-type vp (or just vp) in your hand, if you want it to...

oh, uh, yeah...

[LastFootnote]

Thread necro time.

Does anybody else see Herald's overpay as, "You want to win this split so badly that you're probably going to overpay anyway, so here's an extra treat for when you do"?

[werothegreat]

I see it as "man, you don't use this nearly as often as you do the other overpays".

[Chris is me]

Thread necro time.

Does anybody else see Herald's overpay as, "You want to win this split so badly that you're probably going to overpay anyway, so here's an extra treat for when you do"?

About 20% of the time, I see it like Inn - I really want to play a junker or a trasher once more this shuffle and I'm willing to use my Buy to accomplish that. Or maybe it's a mostly BM deck and I could get a Province if I overpay $2-3 this turn. The other 80% of the time, it's just gravy when a Herald chain is definitely the right way to go. It's a card you want for $4, more than Stonemason is a card you want for $2 or even Doctor for $3 (though I buy Doctor on 3/4 decently often).

[Robz888]

Thread necro time.

The necro-ing of this thread has caused me to notice this regrettable comment I made in 2013:

Herald is nice.

Ironmonger blows it out of the park.

Quite embarrassing. Obviously, this is not true. The reverse is closer to the truth, although still very wrong, I think.

And I was considered, like, a good player? Yikes.

[Titandrake]

Ironmonger is still a really good card. Herald is probably better if you know how to build correctly and worse if you don't.

[qmech]

Ironmonger is a much better opener.  When both are available the transition is something I still find a little tricky.

[Awaclus]

Thread necro time.

Does anybody else see Herald's overpay as, "You want to win this split so badly that you're probably going to overpay anyway, so here's an extra treat for when you do"?

I usually see it as "you want to win this split so badly that you're probably going to overpay anyway, so here's nothing for you when you do so at the top of your shuffle".


I think Ironmonger is stronger than Herald in general. Herald needs a lot of work to be powerful, Ironmonger is powerful right off the bat. I think you basically never ignore Ironmonger, but there are times when you can ignore Herald.