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[yuma]

It's not strong evidence because those quotes come from a game where yuma is town IIRC.

HA! also if someone is going to pull efhw quotes maybe they should remember that efhw found voltaire very scummy and would have voted if not for excessive AtE

[Teproc]

I'm not sure a mail-mi/Eevee team would be quickhammering right now. It's pretty hard to do I think, you might revote your vote at any point if you don't like the way the first of them joins.

Besides, I don't need to be convinced of this, I've already stated I'm voting for one of you two today (gameday).

[Voltaire]

It's not strong evidence because those quotes come from a game where yuma is town IIRC.

HA! also if someone is going to pull efhw quotes maybe they should remember that efhw found voltaire very scummy and would have voted if not for excessive AtE

Oh, I completely agree that if EFHW were alive she would almost certainly lynch me for a town loss right now.

[Voltaire]

Besides, I don't need to be convinced of this, I've already stated I'm voting for one of you two today (gameday).

Cool then. Good. Good. Very good.

[Voltaire]

So, Eevee/yuma (finally). I started with Eevee, since there's less to read.

He actually mentions yuma quite a bit, the first significant moment coming when he questions my removing yuma from the lynch pool on D1. He says this near the end of the day

Yuma I'm pretty null on, while I agree with the no-hammering because I don't want Robz lynched, it's always a bit problematic when someone who isn't considered an IC makes ultimatums like that. I'm not capable of catching scum yuma day 1, and as has been discussed, he is more likely to be nightkilled either way, so that and him generally being very active means we'll get more information on his alignment naturally as the game progresses.

and that's basically it for the early stuff. D2/D3 is when he showed up and that's more fresh in our minds. Also I'm starting to get burnout.

So if the team is yuma/Eevee, it's the kind of well-done play you'd expect from a scum team of two vets. Still very possible.

[Voltaire]

The Case on Yuma, for Teproc and whichever of mail-mi/Eevee is town
points presented in no particular order, with full knowledge that some are stronger than others

FOREWORD: Please see my posts where I POE yuma as scum, and the assumptions contained therein. I understand that these posts cannot hold water from your points of view. Therefore, please consider:

1. Yuma's aggressiveness at being questioned/voted (null tell as per EFHW but incredibly effective for games where he is scum)
1a. Yuma discrediting my cases on him at every turn

Voltaire as well... I fully expect him to come in here and vote for me raging that I am still alive and had a town read on Robz for town credit... But I'll leave it to him to make the pseudocase on me.

if voltaire is town that means I am 0/3 in scum hunting. I think town voltaire would find that unacceptable from me and would be pursuing my lynch today much more aggressively.... but he hasn't... maybe cause he knows I am right on this one?

This post indicates that he is moving toward lynching me. I am sure of it.

2. Yuma fought hard against Teproc being established as a near-IC, something that scum would absolutely have to do to avoid being POEd like he has been by me

3. yuma led mislynches against faust (no really, he did - re-read that and note how yuma makes the case without voting, then jumps aboard after myself and Robz) and against EFHW
4. shamelessly sheeping the dead town - EFHW found yuma scummy (and me too, so I might as well not list this, but hey) and Robz was "wary" of yuma D1
5. using actual appeal-to-emotion by arguing that there's no way town has played so badly as to never have come close to lynching scum, therefore I must be scum because I'm the only remaining option. Really, this is just the most horrible case in the history of forever.

For voltaire to be town that means that every single wagon brought up on day1 was on town. Every single one. That would require epic fail proportions for town....
[snip]
I can't believe town would be so bad or that mafia would allow themselves to go completely unscathed through day1... I just can't.

6. artificially declaring that he will vote by Tuesday when there is no need to rush in lylo
7. the entire exchange between us starting with when we vote for each other. Please re-read our back-and-forth and look at him doing what he accuses me of doing. For example:

Yuma was the first to comment on faust's post but he was clearly not sure if he wanted to lych faust right away before he got 2 votes on him. Relevant quote below.

Testing. The. Waters.

if this is testing the waters what would you call what you have done to me all game long?

Note how he actually dodged the question of his post on faust without a vote, then accuses me of doing the same thing, which I explain completely. There is no follow-up. Then, most importantly, he declares he quits the conversation. Who is afraid of posting a lot, town or scum? How is it helping town to stop posting?

THE END

With that, I have done what I can do. Two of you out there are town - I implore you to vote for yuma. I understand that not lynching me requires admitting town has been horrible up until this point. That's not actually a case on me - and we have time to turn this thing around.

I will be available for questions as needed. Most importantly, re-read. Towns that re-read are towns that win.

Good luck.

[Teproc]

I had started a post on yuma => Eevee but the Internet hate it. Not going to restart with #s but basically :

Day 1 :
- He votes for EFHW right after she votes Eevee
- At one point he analyses a Walrus wagon which is (chairs, Eevee, mail-mi), but ends up voting for EFHW, stating that the reason he doesn't want to vote for Eevee might be because EFHW is already doing that.
- Finds EFHW scummy for voting only twice. She points out that Eevee has only voted once, to which yuma answers 'good observation"
- lists him in "not so interested in" in a reads post
- calls him out on his absence, while also providing possible reasons for it
- he is also involved in the discussion Eevee launched about AtE

Day 2 :
- criticizes Eevee for his absence, but lightly.
- Votes for EFHW right after she votes for Eevee in a reaction to a reads post from Eevee. He also criticizes mail-mi for sheeping EFHW on that one.
- EFHW calls him out on that (voting for her after she votes Eevee, twice). He says Eevee is scummy, but that he doesn't like the reasons she has for voting for him, so she's scummier.
- reads on Eevee fluctuate. "pretty scummy" (#641), "square in the middle" (#687)

And this is where I was. Let's continue then.
#756: Wonders if Eevee is the right lynch when it looks like he's at L-1 (he actuallywas at L-2)
#759: Eevee reread ! Very mixed read. Says he could support the lynch come deadline. The weird thing here is that he points out townie things Eevee has done, and then ends up mixed. He doesn't call any of his actions scummy, but then says he has "some scummy things to his credit".
#938: says he could vote Eevee over Voltaire, but probably prefers Voltaire
#1057: Votes for Eevee as EFHW is about to hammer

Day 3

#1111 : mail-mi/Eevee second most likely scumteam. Wants to look at Voltaire/Eevee more closely.
#1141: says he had a town read on Eevee most of the game: "Not a strong one, but he hasn't ever screamed scum to me the way that voltaire has."
#1149: Fears Eevee might be playing him.

This is pretty much it. There's a lot here, more than I expected. Not the best use of my time, in that it doesn't change my opinion significantly. It's a strong enough possibility to give me pause, but I'm not convinced either.

Off to do the same thing with Voltaire/mail-mi, which I think is the more likely of the Voltaire pairings.

[Eevee]

just read everything..

I'm so so so sure one and exactly one of yuma and voltaire is scum. (not sure if I should say which way I'm leaning)

however, mailmi is the most likely partner for either. I'd be pretty confident with my choice of yuma and Voltaire but quite sure they aren't the team and mailmi is just MILES scummier than teproc, isn't he the best lynxh (and delaying the decision between yuma and Voltaire until tomorrow)?

[yuma]

I will respond to any specific points that any of mail-mi, teproc or eevee want me to... but let me give a spoiler

Bull Crap, clap, clap, clap

[Voltaire]

just read everything..

I'm so so so sure one and exactly one of yuma and voltaire is scum. (not sure if I should say which way I'm leaning)

however, mailmi is the most likely partner for either. I'd be pretty confident with my choice of yuma and Voltaire but quite sure they aren't the team and mailmi is just MILES scummier than teproc, isn't he the best lynxh (and delaying the decision between yuma and Voltaire until tomorrow)?

From your point of view, yes. My yuma is your mail-mi.

[Teproc]

The Internet *ate it.

Voltaire's case on yuma :
1) Meh. Sure, it could be a powerful tactic as scum, but it's clearly just something yuma does.
1a) Very different, and a lot more relevant. I don't like this at all.
2) You're making a way too big deal out of this. I didn't intervene in that debate because I felt it wasn't my place, but yuma was right that I shouldn't be considered an IC at all at that point.
3) Yep.
4) Not sure why this is scummy.
5) This is not really his case. It's more that scum would want to be under suspicion on day 1 I think. I don't see what it has to do with AtE.
6) Meh. We just had two mislynches very close to deadline, so I'm fine with that.
7) I don't know about that exchange. You're at each other's throat, he's pretty convinced you're scum, I could see him doing that as town as well as scum.

Funny, but your case on yuma actually makes me reconsider why he's in my lynch pool at all.

[mail-mi]

Oh gosh that's a lot of pages. I skimmed while at lunch and now class is about to start. I'm not comfortable with either vote actually, Eevee is the scum. Well, one of the votes is on his partner, but I'm not sure which. Wish I could say more, school happens at the most inconvenient time doesn't it?

nice job dodging the question at hand...

And that is...? Am I scum? No. Which of you/Voltaire is scum? You were together until your I quit the convo post. Now it's you, but not confirmed for sure.

[Voltaire]

1a. Yay!
2. POE is how expert scum like yuma is caught. Now it's caught him. The point of POE is that scum can play perfectly towny and still get caught re-handed. It's the most effective form of scumhunting. I don't think you're giving this nearly the weight it deserves.
3. Yay!
4. Sorry, I realized after I posted I made it seem as though I was saying yuma sheeped them. He did not. I am sheeping them. It is one of my weakest points, but I am saying that EFHW thought yuma was scummy (and me too for full disclosure). Also Robz was wary of yuma. This is my weakest point. I am throwing everything I've got at the wall, hoping for something to stick, because today might be the game.
5. He is right that scum like to be under suspicion D1 in the current meta. Yuma is appealing to your emotions by saying "Teproc, town can't possibly have been this bad. Give in to the dark side and vote for Voltaire! He has to be scum, we haven't played that badly." I mean yes he makes other cases on me, I'm replying to this one specifically. I stand by this being scum AtE to a very-well-done-T.
6. OK!
7. oh well then

And your coda: wait what seriously? Look at 1a, 2, and 3 again.

[Teproc]

On 5). Well, that's what I thought his post meant at first, and I disagreed with it (by pointing out that it is indeed very possible for town to be that bad). I guess it could be AtE but it would have 0 chances of working on me (and I assume anyone who is paying attention). Basically you see this as possibly brilliant scum play, I see this as way too bad scum play for yuma.

On 2). That makes sense. It also makes sense as town, but ok.

Coda : That was a bit hyperbolic, but I just don't like your case much.

[Voltaire]

So...based on everyone's willingness/statements about voting...unless I am missing something...it seems to be Eevee/yuma. This is based on an assumption that Eevee is picking me as the scum amongst myself/yuma, which would be consistent with his previous statements.

[Voltaire]

On 5). Well, that's what I thought his post meant at first, and I disagreed with it (by pointing out that it is indeed very possible for town to be that bad). I guess it could be AtE but it would have 0 chances of working on me (and I assume anyone who is paying attention). Basically you see this as possibly brilliant scum play, I see this as way too bad scum play for yuma.

On 2). That makes sense. It also makes sense as town, but ok.

Coda : That was a bit hyperbolic, but I just don't like your case much.

5. OK. I was worried this was working because you had stated you thought between Walrus and myself, one of us had to be scum - and that's not actually a case on me.

Coda. Yuma has played extremely well this game. I understand he is only obv!scum to me. That's my best bet at trying to convince everyone else. I've truly given it my all, and now I just have to wait and see where the chips/votes land.

[Voltaire]

I will respond to any specific points that any of mail-mi, teproc or eevee want me to... but let me give a spoiler

Bull Crap, clap, clap, clap

To you, yuma, I ask: what do you rate the odds the scum team is mail-mi/Eevee, and they're just waiting for Teproc to pick one of us and win?

[yuma]

I will respond to any specific points that any of mail-mi, teproc or eevee want me to... but let me give a spoiler

Bull Crap, clap, clap, clap

To you, yuma, I ask: what do you rate the odds the scum team is mail-mi/Eevee, and they're just waiting for Teproc to pick one of us and win?

Did somebody say something to me...?

[Voltaire]

I will respond to any specific points that any of mail-mi, teproc or eevee want me to... but let me give a spoiler

Bull Crap, clap, clap, clap

To you, yuma, I ask: what do you rate the odds the scum team is mail-mi/Eevee, and they're just waiting for Teproc to pick one of us and win?

Did somebody say something to me...?

Cool. I am very confident putting all my eggs in this basked then, because I'm willing to consider all scenarios and you are not. If you're town and we lose, this one's on you.

Scum team is Eevee/yuma. Makes complete sense. Yuma freaked about me saying two of Walrus/yuma/Eevee were scum yesterday. Yuma floated a mail-mi vote today. Eevee tries to get a mail-mi vote. Yup yup yup. Someone hammer myself or yuma, we've sorted this one out. Now it's just time to decide which side wins.

[yuma]

Oh gosh that's a lot of pages. I skimmed while at lunch and now class is about to start. I'm not comfortable with either vote actually, Eevee is the scum. Well, one of the votes is on his partner, but I'm not sure which. Wish I could say more, school happens at the most inconvenient time doesn't it?

nice job dodging the question at hand...

And that is...? Am I scum? No. Which of you/Voltaire is scum? You were together until your I quit the convo post. Now it's you, but not confirmed for sure.

No... just pointing out that you are unwilling to either vote for me (to push through a mislynch) or vote for your partner voltaire. It is awfully convenient.

[Voltaire]

Scum team is Eevee/yuma. Makes complete sense. Yuma freaked about me saying two of Walrus/yuma/Eevee were scum yesterday. Yuma floated a mail-mi vote today. Eevee tries to get a mail-mi vote. Yup yup yup. Someone hammer myself or yuma, we've sorted this one out. Now it's just time to decide which side wins.

And Eevee fought me to get mail-mi considered. This is it. Ha.

Everyone vote, this is the game.

[Teproc]

Voltaire => mail-mi

Day 1

#54: RVS on mail-mi
#94: "agreeing with mail-mi *gasp*" I'm guessing this means Voltaire usually goes after mail-mi ?
#158: "mail-mi usually lurks and sheeps as town" in response to Walrus finding mail-mi scummy
#186 : "mail-mi is mail-mi"
#236: Takes him out of his lynch pool, along with chairs, for lack of information.

Day 2

#574: reads. mail-mi is his 2nd town. "mail-mi - behaving like normal scummy mail-mi. If he's scum we'll POE him at some point, or he'll have to start playing and show his true colors."
#730 : Makes me remove my vote on mail-mi ! Not relevant at all I think (he thought I had it on EFHW, who ahd just claimed), but it's funny considering I'm now seeing them as a scum team.
#766 : mail-mi striked out of his lynch list.
#790 : Supports mail-mi giving a reads post. Possibly coaching ?
#802: "Look, the few times I've seen scum mail-mi were HP where he was obvscum because he was hyper-eager to claim the least plausible thing, and then the lipoil tables 11-player Dominion one...he was mcmc's partner...actually how did we catch him there?"
#807: says it makes no sense for him as scum to give town credit to mail-mi. Actually recognizes that it would be possible if they were partners
#829: About mail-mi teams : Eevee and Walrus unlikely, yuma possible.
#871: restates that he thinks mail-mi is town
#890: agrees that mail-mi's voting history is "troublesome"
#895: after rereading my case on mail-mi: "bad but not crazy bad. The faust vote seems completely unexplained but that's it."

Day 3

#1100 : mail-mi and Eevee are his two likeliest candidates.
#1106 : "I almost certainly want to lynch mail-mi"
#1125: "I had no reason to think mail-mi was town earlier. I also had no reason to think he was scum."

I mean there's more day 3 but I don't think it's particularly relevant.

It reads to me like Voltaire decided that the meta defense would be enough to keep mail-mi out of trouble in the first few (which it was), and then went straight to bussing on day 3. This is very abrupt, so much so that I do think it's pretty likely to have been orchestrated in night 2.
Interesting that he starts day 3 with a town read on yuma, but then gradually finds him scummy. What I think about that, and this might be me being self-centered, is that he seemed to have abandoned the mail-mi-Eevee possibility right when I did. At that point, he figured : "Hey, I don't even have to bus ! Just have to convince Teproc that the correct team in yuma/mail-mi and he'll vote for yuma".
He votes for yuma, and this helps me narrowing my decision to Voltaire/yuma. Now he just has to convince me to vote yuma, and mail-mi can hammer.

Not decided yet, but I think you can see which way I'm leaning. I also have a way stronger scum read on Voltaire individually than on yuma. Yes, a yuma/Eevee is very possible, but I have to take a risk in any case.

[Voltaire]

#574: reads. mail-mi is his 2nd town. "mail-mi - behaving like normal scummy mail-mi. If he's scum we'll POE him at some point, or he'll have to start playing and show his true colors."

Teproc, I maintain that I have been entirely consistent on mail-mi (who I now think is town, how's that for ya?). This post you quoted is the way I've thought about mail-mi the entire game. Interpret all my actions through the lens of town!Voltaire - see how they make sense too?

[Voltaire]

mail-mi, get your butt in here and convince Teproc you're town. That looks like the only way town's going to win.

[mail-mi]

I think the team is Yuma/Eevee. Volt/Eevee is also possible I guess, but Yuma is scummier.

But that means every d1 wagon was on town. Hmph.