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[Teproc]

A fuzzy deadline, if you will ? Doesn't look good for Eevee then.

I think the OSBPT should definitely not claim as long as there could be a Tracker (see #546). If we get a Cop claim, maybe, but I still like the shot at a no-kill for Mafia better.

[EFHW]

Because then we're scrambling for another lynch, because, let's face it, we're probably not going to hit the soft deadline (is hit the right word? Reach? Lynch by? IDK >_<)

That's why we set a soft deadline 48 hours before the real one.

I think we should set a soft soft deadline 48 hours before the soft deadline.

You're kidding, but...

Teproc the soft deadline means we try to reach a consensus early, so that if there are claiming surprises there is still time to find an alternate lynch.

Monday 8 pm is ok for me.  I will be checking in throughout the day, and then can be present from about 7:30 on, depending how things go.

[Voltaire]

Also: vote: EFHW btw. Had mafia-esque certainty in my town-ness, bad gut feeling from early D1, tried to get me lynched for contradictions (which usually come from town). yuma's case on her from D1. Seems to test the waters for a mail-mi lynch (knowing it probably won't happen). I feel pretty good here. All pending claims of course.

That's a good idea, to get ahead of it before I vote you.  I don't know what you mean about mafia-esque certainty about your towniness, since I made a case on you and voted for you.  yuma didn't make a case on me - he found similarities from another game and got town on the alert if that similarity might continue.

Why are you so reluctant for a BPT to claim?  Teproc says tracker should claim b/c they might live the night, but the BPT definitely would, so where is the benefit to asking tracker to claim before BPT? 

I also don't like the "wait until at L-1 to claim" plan for the BPT.  That minimizes the time we have to make use of the BPT as IC.  We would have to do that if the tracker claims, but I don't think the tracker should claim until we are sure there is no BPT.  Then Teproc's plan might be worth considering.

vote: Voltaire

10 replies not read yet

The difference is because the BPT can't die. That is huge huge huge huge huge. If you're town, I think you need to understand that this is a difference of opinion, because I see where you are coming from but you should see where I am coming from - see all my harping about why the soft deadline matters.

But of course I think you're scum.

Also, if there is a tracker we want scum to think there might be a doctor (we also want there to be a doctor!). If the BPT claims, then the tracker is a goner if they claim. Maybe actually in that setup that makes more sense...but...

In specific setups it can make sense to do these claims in different orders, but not when our PRs can't know what other PRs are (or are not!) out there. I still think the Voltaire/Teproc consensus makes the most sense.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Eevee - wow, I can never remember Eevee. Ever.

Light scum read on:
Walrus - Eevee's case is darn good.

Is this sarcasm? This is the same case that I've been trying to get Eevee to elaborate on for the past week? Or do you know something I don't? What is it about this case by Eevee (who is apparently forgettable) that you find so compelling?

[Teproc]

I also don't like the "wait until at L-1 to claim" plan for the BPT.  That minimizes the time we have to make use of the BPT as IC.  We would have to do that if the tracker claims, but I don't think the tracker should claim until we are sure there is no BPT.  Then Teproc's plan might be worth considering.

Tracker claiming is better than BPT claiming because it doesn't give as much info to mafia.

[Teproc]

Yeah, and also I'm not convinced BPT claiming is good in general because claiming prevents any chance Mafia tries to NK him.

[Voltaire]

Eevee - wow, I can never remember Eevee. Ever.

Light scum read on:
Walrus - Eevee's case is darn good.

Is this sarcasm? This is the same case that I've been trying to get Eevee to elaborate on for the past week? Or do you know something I don't? What is it about this case by Eevee (who is apparently forgettable) that you find so compelling?

The only thing I remember about Eevee is that he made a case on you. At first I thought it was bunk, then I thought it was awesome, then I wasn't sure, right now I think it's awesome again.

And Eevee has made this case very clear:

I'd like to plob my vote down somewhere. Walrus's flipflopping on faust sememed like he wants to please the crowd, first finding him scummy but then changing his mind when yuma (?) voiced criticism on his reasons. That's more mafiay behavior in my opinion, especially a newer mafia would want to blend in with the crowd.

vote: walrus

I don't remember walrus asking for town's permission on his suspicions in modern community (where he was town), can anyone confirm? I think his tone here is very different. Wanting to please the crowd and have someone validate your "suspicions" before committing to them is a pretty well working scum tell, especially for newer scum. I even remember making posts like that as scum in my first game - I remember because someone called me out on it, I think it was robz.

I'm on phone, so I just snipped the parts I was referring to in his earlier post.
A lot of suspicion flying in sentences that end in question marks!

In fact I was considering voting for mail-mi just now. Anyone else feeling that? But I thought I'd go for EFHW instead, to use my vote to exert some more real pressure.

Possible EFHW/mail-mi scumteam?

^[1]Slightly weird that she would specifically define the term scummy-ish here, even after having just used it 2 posts earlier? Barely worth mentioning, which is why this is a footnote lol.

[EFHW]

A fuzzy deadline, if you will ? Doesn't look good for Eevee then.

I think the OSBPT should definitely not claim as long as there could be a Tracker (see #546). If we get a Cop claim, maybe, but I still like the shot at a no-kill for Mafia better.

Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but how does the tracker claiming increase the probability of a no-kill?  If we have a tracker, then we have a chance at a no-kill even without claiming, b/c we definitely have either a doctor or a BPT.  If we have a BPT, there might be two chances of a no-kill b/c there may also be a jk. 

-- If trying to get a no-kill is our priority, then no one should claim. 
-- If getting an IC is more important, then BPT should claim, and lacking that the tracker could consider claiming.  I think I'd rather have the IC.

[mail-mi]

A fuzzy deadline, if you will ? Doesn't look good for Eevee then.

I think the OSBPT should definitely not claim as long as there could be a Tracker (see #546). If we get a Cop claim, maybe, but I still like the shot at a no-kill for Mafia better.

Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but how does the tracker claiming increase the probability of a no-kill?  If we have a tracker, then we have a chance at a no-kill even without claiming, b/c we definitely have either a doctor or a BPT.  If we have a BPT, there might be two chances of a no-kill b/c there may also be a jk. 

-- If trying to get a no-kill is our priority, then no one should claim. 
-- If getting an IC is more important, then BPT should claim, and lacking that the tracker could consider claiming.  I think I'd rather have the IC.

I also think an IC is better than a possible no kill.

[Voltaire]

If there is BPT, mafia wants the following things in order:

1. BPT to be lynched
2. BPT to claim
3. BPT to need to be shot twice at night

1 will never happen unless they counter-claim the BPT and we believe the mafia over the real BPT, or the BPT plays horribly and doesn't claim, claims VT, or some other insanity.

Point is, the mafia reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly wants the BPT to claim right now.

[Teproc]

vote: Voltaire

This is L-1, right ? Someone unvote, please, at least until we get the claim situation right. I'm not sure Voltaire is town at all (had a null read on him going into day 2, his points about the claim question improved that to a slight town read), but

[EFHW]

Eevee - wow, I can never remember Eevee. Ever.

Light scum read on:
Walrus - Eevee's case is darn good.

Is this sarcasm? This is the same case that I've been trying to get Eevee to elaborate on for the past week? Or do you know something I don't? What is it about this case by Eevee (who is apparently forgettable) that you find so compelling?

It was the noob scum argument.

[EFHW]

crap, sorry.  Unvote  Not used to small games anymore!

[mail-mi]

If there is BPT, mafia wants the following things in order:

1. BPT to be lynched
2. BPT to claim
3. BPT to need to be shot twice at night

1 will never happen unless they counter-claim the BPT and we believe the mafia over the real BPT, or the BPT plays horribly and doesn't claim, claims VT, or some other insanity.

Point is, the mafia reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly wants the BPT to claim right now.

Mafia knowing the setup vs. having an IC. I think it's worth it.

[EFHW]

If there is BPT, mafia wants the following things in order:

1. BPT to be lynched
2. BPT to claim
3. BPT to need to be shot twice at night

1 will never happen unless they counter-claim the BPT and we believe the mafia over the real BPT, or the BPT plays horribly and doesn't claim, claims VT, or some other insanity.

Point is, the mafia reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly wants the BPT to claim right now.

They wouldn't find a BP IC a problem?

[Voltaire]

A fuzzy deadline, if you will ? Doesn't look good for Eevee then.

I think the OSBPT should definitely not claim as long as there could be a Tracker (see #546). If we get a Cop claim, maybe, but I still like the shot at a no-kill for Mafia better.

Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but how does the tracker claiming increase the probability of a no-kill?  If we have a tracker, then we have a chance at a no-kill even without claiming, b/c we definitely have either a doctor or a BPT.  If we have a BPT, there might be two chances of a no-kill b/c there may also be a jk. 

-- If trying to get a no-kill is our priority, then no one should claim. 
-- If getting an IC is more important, then BPT should claim, and lacking that the tracker could consider claiming.  I think I'd rather have the IC.

In those scenarios the tracker is our IC. If there's no tracker, the JK should stay hidden - so now I see your point. Would we want people to claim tracker/not tracker?

[Voltaire]

If there is BPT, mafia wants the following things in order:

1. BPT to be lynched
2. BPT to claim
3. BPT to need to be shot twice at night

1 will never happen unless they counter-claim the BPT and we believe the mafia over the real BPT, or the BPT plays horribly and doesn't claim, claims VT, or some other insanity.

Point is, the mafia reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly wants the BPT to claim right now.

They wouldn't find a BP IC a problem?

What's their other option?

[Voltaire]

vote: Voltaire

This is L-1, right ? Someone unvote, please, at least until we get the claim situation right. I'm not sure Voltaire is town at all (had a null read on him going into day 2, his points about the claim question improved that to a slight town read), but

More town points to Teproc for catching this.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Eevee - wow, I can never remember Eevee. Ever.

Light scum read on:
Walrus - Eevee's case is darn good.

Is this sarcasm? This is the same case that I've been trying to get Eevee to elaborate on for the past week? Or do you know something I don't? What is it about this case by Eevee (who is apparently forgettable) that you find so compelling?

The only thing I remember about Eevee is that he made a case on you. At first I thought it was bunk, then I thought it was awesome, then I wasn't sure, right now I think it's awesome again.

And Eevee has made this case very clear:

I'd like to plob my vote down somewhere. Walrus's flipflopping on faust sememed like he wants to please the crowd, first finding him scummy but then changing his mind when yuma (?) voiced criticism on his reasons. That's more mafiay behavior in my opinion, especially a newer mafia would want to blend in with the crowd.

vote: walrus

I don't remember walrus asking for town's permission on his suspicions in modern community (where he was town), can anyone confirm? I think his tone here is very different. Wanting to please the crowd and have someone validate your "suspicions" before committing to them is a pretty well working scum tell, especially for newer scum. I even remember making posts like that as scum in my first game - I remember because someone called me out on it, I think it was robz.

I'm on phone, so I just snipped the parts I was referring to in his earlier post.
A lot of suspicion flying in sentences that end in question marks!

In fact I was considering voting for mail-mi just now. Anyone else feeling that? But I thought I'd go for EFHW instead, to use my vote to exert some more real pressure.

Possible EFHW/mail-mi scumteam?

^[1]Slightly weird that she would specifically define the term scummy-ish here, even after having just used it 2 posts earlier? Barely worth mentioning, which is why this is a footnote lol.

OK, so yeah that's the case. And then I've asked numerous times what specifically he means by "asking permission" or "validation". It was about that one mail-mi thing? Really, is that all? Do you have any other examples, since he hasn't provided any? I don't call this case "very clear" at all. Less so that it's so stale by now.

[mail-mi]

If there is BPT, mafia wants the following things in order:

1. BPT to be lynched
2. BPT to claim
3. BPT to need to be shot twice at night

1 will never happen unless they counter-claim the BPT and we believe the mafia over the real BPT, or the BPT plays horribly and doesn't claim, claims VT, or some other insanity.

Point is, the mafia reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly wants the BPT to claim right now.

They wouldn't find a BP IC a problem?

What's their other option?

?

[Teproc]

Ok, so there are two possible scenarios with a BPT in play :
VT x3, BPT, Tracker, Goon x2
VT x3, BPT, JK, Goon, Roleblocker.

So if BPT claims, Mafia gets perfect information.

If there's a Tracker, I'd rather have him claiming, because
- Mafia still doesn't have perfect information
- Tracker can have semi-useful information this day, and another shot at info the next day.
- This puts mafia in an awkward situation. They want to get rid of the tracker, but there's a 50% chance of him being protected by a doctor. I think they will probably try to get the Doctor. In this process, they migt hit the BPT, giving us a no-kill night
- If the BPT claims, they just shoot the Tracker

The JK scenario is different but the BPT does not know which one we are in, and should therefore not claim.

PPE : 9 replies

[Voltaire]

If there is BPT, mafia wants the following things in order:

1. BPT to be lynched
2. BPT to claim
3. BPT to need to be shot twice at night

1 will never happen unless they counter-claim the BPT and we believe the mafia over the real BPT, or the BPT plays horribly and doesn't claim, claims VT, or some other insanity.

Point is, the mafia reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly wants the BPT to claim right now.

They wouldn't find a BP IC a problem?

What's their other option?

?

To dealing with a BPT.

[EFHW]

If there is BPT, mafia wants the following things in order:

1. BPT to be lynched
2. BPT to claim
3. BPT to need to be shot twice at night

1 will never happen unless they counter-claim the BPT and we believe the mafia over the real BPT, or the BPT plays horribly and doesn't claim, claims VT, or some other insanity.

Point is, the mafia reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllly wants the BPT to claim right now.

They wouldn't find a BP IC a problem?

What's their other option?

I'm just saying that mafia may not want the BPT to claim, b/c then we have BP IC instead, and that is not desirable for them.  The downside for town is that the chances of a successful nk do go up.  I'm going to see if I can quantify this for us somehow.

5 replies not read

[Voltaire]

Ok, so there are two possible scenarios with a BPT in play :
VT x3, BPT, Tracker, Goon x2
VT x3, BPT, JK, Goon, Roleblocker.

So if BPT claims, Mafia gets perfect information.

If there's a Tracker, I'd rather have him claiming, because
- Mafia still doesn't have perfect information
- Tracker can have semi-useful information this day, and another shot at info the next day.
- This puts mafia in an awkward situation. They want to get rid of the tracker, but there's a 50% chance of him being protected by a doctor. I think they will probably try to get the Doctor. In this process, they migt hit the BPT, giving us a no-kill night
- If the BPT claims, they just shoot the Tracker

The JK scenario is different but the BPT does not know which one we are in, and should therefore not claim.

PPE : 9 replies

This.

[EFHW]

ok, I'm seeing what you mean about the perfect information.  I'm not sure how much of a problem that is, though.  If they know there is a jk, they still don't know who that is.  If they know there is a tracker they still have to try to shoot someone, risking detection.  Knowing who the BPT is also reduces the people the tracker/jk might target, increasing their chances of a successful night action.

I hate not being able to trust anyone, so I think an IC is very good for town.  And we have seen a lot from most of us, so unless the IC is Eevee or mail-mi, there would be a lot to look at scum-hunting-wise.